At first I was very excited, even though it doesn't have perfect stats, considering how all folks been talking about Krider being BiS past days. After some testing I'm really disappointed. Either I'm doing something wrong or people are saying complete bullshit and post thing they have no idea about, just speculating. This Krider comes as an upgrade considering my previous weapon (Ancient Arcane Barb, 2331-2852dmg, dex, vit, 9% rcr). Yet the weapon feels 2x less powerful than crossbow.
First of all - the 'uptime'. I think I want to have weapon as slow as possible, this ensures that every shot will hit hard and going out of hatred I lose more time shooting, so less time waiting for CD's replenishing hatred. So this 'cycle' makes me utilize DPS to the maximum, I spend more time shooting CA's. With Krider it's entire way around. I dump all my hatred within 2 seconds and have to wait for CD's generating hatred as shooting shitty EA. And EA it's not even that much DPS increase as some have stated, it shoots little harder but still is insanely insignificant in your overall damage.
Secondly, generation. This Krider has worse variant of generation, but even if it was 4 Hatred, it's still not enough. I tend to move a lot, on higher rifts (for me it's 43-45) I move after every shot, just to ensure I can dodge all the incoming missiles. With crossbow it's okay because I don't lose any time between attacks, considering how slow it is. With Krider if I want to generate fast I have to stand still because of the weapon speed. And even standing still I generate hatred a lot slower than with Evasive Fire - Focus.
So there it is, worse hatred regen, worse 'uptime' of shooting CA (I spent most of time shooting generators and that's not the way CA build should be played).
Maybe I'm doing something wrong or there are other viable builds for Kridershot but so far I feel that it really pales in comparison to ancient crossbow. If anyone has any experience with it or could advise me I'd be grateful. Cheers.
The only reason some people may consider Kridershot BIS is that the sentries will also fire your generator, i.e. Elemental Arrow. Now, Elemental Arrow of course does much more dmg. than any other generator, yet, it never reaches the dmg. of the Rocket skills or even LfB (for group play only). The fact is, the dmg. per hatred is still much higher and efficient if you use an ancient 2h xbow. I also used to think that kridershot is BIS, yet, once your realize one thing, Kridershot becomes redundant:
For High lvl. play, there is no need for a generator skill at all.
I play Grift solo 44 (top 50 seasonal European ladder) and use an ancient arcane barb. Other than some, I don't use any generator primary, but only rely on Health globes (wraps), punishment and seeth or MfD - ME for generation. This allows me to basically use CA at least 1 every 3 sec (for taeguk in GR) and clear without having to worry about a primary.
In the end, Kridershot is not BIS, the leaderboards on the PTR and the current new shifts reaffirm this. The dmg. you get out of your CA (or MS if you feel like it) is paramount, thus an ancient Arcane Barb, Etrayu or Calamity is what you want to look for if you really want to max out your potential in GR.
The advantage of Krider is while you're generating your sentries are also attacking with elemental arrow - something you dont get if you use a normal generator. Obviously the damage range on a bow is going to be lower than a 2 hand crossbow, so you arent getting as much damage/hatred spent. Thus, you're clusters are doing less damage overall. Ideally the damage you gain while generating with elemental arrow would offset this but I'm not sure if it does either.
So Krider should actually become weaker the higher the GRift. I tried some 46 and 47 today and those elite and endboss fights take alot of time, the ramp up phase setting the sentries is only a very very small percentage of the fight.
In previous patch it was pretty cool weapon, mostly because it benefited from high attack speed as well as your sentries did.
In 2.1.2 there are way more useful stats than AS such as: Reduced resource cost and Cooldown reduction.
I am not the top player but for me 2handed crossbow is the best way.
Also defensive stats are pretty helpful, you can check my profile for my items http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Lomax-2324/hero/38434621
Stuff below is rough first draft with some issues, disregard, just keeping it for posterity.
Assume 5 targets (optimal for Cluster arrow): My base hatred regen is 5.00/sec, and my generator gives me 6 hatred/sec when casting it (2 APS with krider).
I have 20% RSCR, meaning my CA costs 32 hatred. This means over a minute I can, with an initial 125 hatred:
Shoot 120 shots.
Gain 300 hatred from passive.
95 shots are EA generating 285 hatred.
25 cluster arrows (assuming prep+pet used to regen hatred for 3).
EA is 330% wep dmg per shot + 4x hits of 330% on secondary targets = 156750% total weapon dmg.
CA is 550% wep dmg per shot + 4x rockets for 900% wep dmg on secondary targets = 103750% total weapon dmg.
Likewise, using EA, you get spitfire turrets as EA takes care of the chill for CTW. Let's just assume 3x turrets, with 1 rocket per shot (so 360 rockets)
SFT is 240% wep dmg per shot = 86400% wep dmg.
This is not even accounting for the (on average) 3 extra elemental arrows you'd be shooting with turrets, which is obviously 156K*3.
Meanwhile, with Evasive fire+CA and a crossbow you get:
90 Shots (1.5 speed vs 2).
300 Hatred from passive.
60 Evasive fire = 420 hatred.
30 Cluster arrow (assuming prep+pet used to regen hatred for 3.5).
Only new number is EF, which does 400% wep dmg in an ideal scenario per shot.
EF is 200% wep dmg per shot + 2x hits of 100% on secondary targets = 24000% weapon dmg.
CA is 550% wep dmg per shot + 4x rockets for 900% wep dmg on secondary targets = 124500% wep dmg.
No spitfire as you need polar station.
Let's be very generous here, and turn this around. Say you're a mega-good player and get all the lifeglobes etc; you manage to cast 60 clusters and 30 EF's instead of the opposite. This means 249K% weapon damage over 90 seconds.
So we have 261K% from EF, and 347K% from EA.
Let's compare a perfectly rolled Arcane barb:
1560-1940 + 787-961 = 5248 * 1.10 / 2 = 2886.4
2886.4 * 261K = 753M damage.
And OP's krider (which is fairly mediocre):
1819+2928 / 2 = 2373.5
2373.5 * 347K = 823M damage.
Compare it to a perfect NORMAL kridershot:
1190-1490 + 145-819 = 3744 * 1.10 / 2 = 2059.2
2059.2 * 347K = 714M damage.
Essentially, a perfect arcane barb with EVERY advantage given to it (far more cluster arrows than you should expect) is 10% lower than an average Kridershot; BEFORE counting the extra elemental arrows from turrets. A perfect NORMAL kridershot is about 5% behind a perfect ancient barb, BEFORE accounting for the EA's aswell.
Essentially, what I'm getting at is, on paper, any ancient kridershot will beat the crap out of Barb on overall damage. It will not have as high bursts (as it splits the damage pretty "evenly" into 40% EA / 35% cluster / 25% spitfire) as EF(which goes 95% cluster/5% EF), but the sustained damage will be far better.
[quote]Quote from Draco_Draco
[quote]Quote from Alkait's sort of give and take. When you get ns you have the freedom to drop preperation/punishment for another active skill.. Which skill, though. The only thing you could possibly want is marked for death, and losing CTW/Awareness for that isn't worth it (and losing ballistic/CE is not an option).
I play around this build atm, with a Calamity in group runs, and with an ancient Chanon Bolter solo, in which case I replace the SP with spike trap. Not taking CtW does not hinder this type of build too much since there's no chill/slow effects, and nightstalker is a significant indirect damage increase, boosting the MS/CA shot frequency by reducing the fill-up periods. With 60% fireskill from cindercoat+Soj+bracer (a possible 80% if I find a good ancient Balefire Caster as I did in PTR) I believe having more uptime is the priority. Btw, with MS, toxin gem (currently using instead of BotT) works great.
well if you would not play with such fast weapons you wouldnt have to use the hatred generator as much, in which case the "significant indirect damage" becomes pretty insignificant.
M6 builds are limited by having not enough hatred to spam CA/MS.
1hand xbows are just not as good as 2handers, because you attack faster and spend your resource faster.
yes, you also attack faster with your hatred generator, but this is only a small portion of your hatred gain:
prep:punishment, companion bat active, healthglobes (reaper wraps) and the passive hatred regeneration.
in a world where those skills/items do not exists, it would not matter, if you use a fast or slow weapon. only the dps of the weapon would be important. you would be able to spend hatred over a longer period of time with a slow weapon, but it would also take you longer to generate the same amount of hatred. so the effect of attack speed cancels itself out of the calculation.
but because we have all the mentioned skills/items, which are independent(!) of attack speed, it is just plain better to attack slow - a 2hand xbow in our case.
more attack speed means, that you spend your resource faster, while your resource generation increases - but not by the same amount in relation to the spending of hatred
You probably knew this already and I kind of repeated myself a little bit, but I just wanted to make it very clear.
I also find this very important for other people to realize, because it is pretty much the essence of the current discussion about which weapon to use:
slow = good
craft arcane barb = good
kridershot = this thread: "can the legendary effect make up for the fact, that it's not a slow xbow?"
I have minimum downtime for spenders and spamming MS is perfectly fine with 1H weapon.
CA is a bit more consuming (and works better with 2H) but still not that big deal to manage with right gear setup and playstyle..
It all can be modified according to the best availble weapon. So far, best I have is an ancient Chanon Bolter (good enough for not spending mats on Arcane Barb crafting frenzy). I mainly use it for solo GR, but anything other than that, the average non-ancient Calamity feels great and more than good enough.
Hey folks, thanks for answering and widening my point of view, all feedback was helpful.
I'm still testing Krider versus Ancient Crossbow, both has it's weaknesses and while Krider seems to be better in some situations, it's terrible when you face wrong affixes or really 'lively' mobs. So math does sometimes lie, Draco, providing you with dry info about DPS in almost lab environment, so it's not always accurate. But if you play right, rotate EA with CA so mobs will be slowed all the time from your attacks (spitfire sentry) the damage is actually better than with Crossbow. It's good for higher rifts, when fights tend to last long, and bad for lower ones, when you could just nuke thing with Crossbow, collect orbs and rush to the next pack. It's also more demanding to play, as every miss is a DPS loss, and less forgiving, since you also have to place yourself more properly to be able to do rotation, tagging as many mobs as possible.
I'll update when I'll gather some info, it's of course subjective but I'm trying to write down clear times (along with boss fights) from at least 20 GR's 40-45 lvl for both Krider runs and Crossbow runs. Maybe that will be helpful to some people, it will surely provide valuable info for me.
Also, I didn't want to create a new topic so I'll ask here.
This buddy just dropped for me and while I'm busy testing Krider first - does anyone recommend any fun builds where this might be viable? Or anyone dropped similar piece and tried it?
(It had horrible damage roll so I figured gaining over 200 damage will be better than any other stat. Max dmg is 1700 btw, forgot to add that)
While not particularly strong in groups with crowd controlling support characters due to the knock back, the actual damage output on my build is very high. With a better rolled Windforce I could do some crazy high damage. As it is the damage roll is remarkably low, but I'm making do without it. Take a look at what I'm doing with my character. This kind of setup is a build avenue that could be very rewarding if we look into it seriously.