Dude if you remove the items mentioned you'd be left with the fact that those classes have passives that buff them no matter the weapon choice. My argument uses those items to overkill my point, its why you apply your argument to some examples I used, not all, and in an incorrect way to boot. In the case of BF you tried, but since you don't seem to understand how barbs generate/maintain fury you end up coming out on the weaker side of the argument once again. It is very easy and fluid to use ww in a EQ t6 farm build, and never ever dip below 90% fury even single target on a rift guardian.I do it all the time and never do I go below 90%. As far as endgame EQ from what I've seen they don't use spenders, so no punishment there what so ever. Raekors falls into the same catagory. In the case of GF, globe generation can be assured with several talent selections, and further augmented by an amulet equip, I.E. in that case it is up to the player to maintain the buff. Failure to do so means that player must get better at keeping stacks up if the talent is to remain optimal.
Gruesome Feast/Pierce the Veil etc, were mentioned for the specific reason that they are part of end game builds, and do not in any way interact with weapon selection, none of the passives I mentioned interact with weapon selection in that way, nor should they, it creates poor diversity choices, and a glass ceiling for progression. Not saying that the current set based meta doesn't do just that it does, but not on the same level. Neither does the base damage of Companion Call: Wolf, Big Bad Vodoo, nor Wrath of the Berzerker see any sort of modification to damage to 'preserve balance' within those classes
If I were wrong about HS being a debuff, then you could remove it and not see a difference in damage. As it is, it does lower damage in a very specific way, by removing 20% of the 35% bonus from AC based on the weapon used. An affix that lowers damage or performance in that way is a....debuff. If you removed that debuff you would see a gap widen between 1h/2h for crusaders, and as stated this is an end game thread, not a T6 or lower thread so if you're not O.K. with that you have every right not to post, or to say you disagree. Don't monopolize this thread with false information please, because I for one don't believe that great big -20% is anything but a punishment for using tools that we need to use to progress. Neither do I believe in the idiocy that leads people to believe that it is O.K. to remove performance from one area of a class/build to cover a bigger lack of performance in another area. I'm talking about the opinions you've stated multiple times in your posts.
I understand from your posts that you are a passionate person about 1h, so I invite you to create a thread that looks at what would be needed to buff them. Because at the end of the day we as a class are not doing enough damage for high progression, and the first thing that jumps out at me is a giant -20% next to damage granted by skills, which becomes +15% when I activate AC. Not 35%, as advertised. Trying to tell me that I'm actually buffed by 43% is laughable when you consider that damage for all 2h weps regardless of class was buffed. Not just damage for crusaders, all classes.
Unless your math shows crusaders doing 20% more baseline damage than every other class, I see no reason for this debuff that is HS. If you want to bring the shield argument up, your more than welome to it, but Unrelenting Phalanx/FR don't stack up to other "class specific" slot equips, such as Vial Ward, Bombadiers Rucksack, Met.Bolts, Mask of Jeram/TMF. WD's have their own set of issues in progression, but damage done when pets are alive isn't one of them trust me. Which is not to say nerf others, leave them alone. In the case of barb it seems a bad joke to give them tools capable of clearing trash to RG in a GR 52 then leaving them with nowhere near enough single target to get the job done. Does not sound rewarding in the slightest. This is also not a 'nerf furnace/unity/soj" etc thread. We like those things, they help with progression and are standards for end game. RROG as well.
Unless you operate under the premise that crusaders do that much more damage than other classes baseline, which we don't. We don't even have the best weapon scaling, that goes to barbs and dh next I believe. As far as the validity of your math, sorry but you'll have to actually top the kill time of a crusader with roughly the same stat with the only difference being a 1h for me to believe. Reason being that type of D3V gear testing leaves out crit/crit damage/leg affixes which do affect game play/performance in a huge way. The reason that DH/WD use spread sheets was to get around this and remove any bias in results from omission of data.
As far as your oppinion that HS is better than its peers, you just had the bad luck of trying that argument on someone who plays WD/Sader/DH/Barb. A lot. Every other 20% passive destroys HS based on the fact that you can use whatever weapon you want without losing damage from your class specific on use cool down outside of base damage lost for weapon selection. Those talents even leave room for further reward, an aware WD who uses spirit walk well will have a much greater uptime on 5 stack GF. if you want to bring up the mana usage from PTV that is negated in several ways, which involve playcraft and gearing. So too with a demon hunter who is well practiced with Steady Aim and Nightstalker. NS is a defensive talent but a very powerful and engaging one that is a blast to play with.
Please feel free to make a thread regarding the state of 1h v2h in game currently, I'd support it. As far as this thread is concerned, the guy who I asked not to post provided more factual information with one sentance than you've managed in numberous posts, that sentance being " we don't clear trash as fast as a barb." Look at the vid for the 44 clear by Alkizer, then look at at the video of Wudjio's 49 clear or the R1 Barb clear. Either of two mentioned would have done that 44 rift in probably under ten minutes, I'm not slighting Alkizer in the slighest.I'm glad people are pushing this class and hope for further progression. Doesn't have to come from me, would be nice but if its not then the world keeps spinning. If you think that Crusaders deal 20% more baseline damage than other classes then I think our conversation is over, much to the relief of the mod's I'll bet, and I bid you good day.
Auto, Dude if you remove the items mentioned you'd be left with the fact that those classes have passives that buff them no matter the weapon choice. My argument uses those items to overkill my point, its why you apply your argument to some examples I used, not all, and in an incorrect way to boot. In the case of BF you tried, but since you don't seem to understand how barbs generate/maintain fury you end up coming out on the weaker side of the argument once again. It is very easy and fluid to use ww in a EQ t6 farm build, and never ever dip below 90% fury even single target on a rift guardian.I do it all the time and never do I go below 90%. As far as endgame EQ from what I've seen they don't use spenders, so no punishment there what so ever. Raekors falls into the same catagory. In the case of GF, globe generation can be assured with several talent selections, and further augmented by an amulet equip, I.E. in that case it is up to the player to maintain the buff. Failure to do so means that player must get better at keeping stacks up if the talent is to remain optimal.
Oh so you mean that those passives work when you're doing what they're designed to do? Who'da thunk it.
There's no reasonable situation in which the 20% penalty on HS is causing the passive to be a negative effect.
Gruesome Feast/Pierce the Veil etc, were mentioned for the specific reason that they are part of end game builds, and do not in any way interact with weapon selection, none of the passives I mentioned interact with weapon selection in that way, nor should they, it creates poor diversity choices, and a glass ceiling for progression. Not saying that the current set based meta doesn't do just that it does, but not on the same level. Neither does the base damage of Companion Call: Wolf, Big Bad Vodoo, nor Wrath of the Berzerker see any sort of modification to damage to 'preserve balance' within those classes
There are precisely two Crusader weapon-interactive passives. One of them gives +20% DPS, the other doesn;t get used because it's a 1H passive.
If I were wrong about HS being a debuff, then you could remove it and not see a difference in damage. As it is, it does lower damage in a very specific way, by removing 20% of the 35% bonus from AC based on the weapon used. An affix that lowers damage or performance in that way is a....debuff. If you removed that debuff you would see a gap widen between 1h/2h for crusaders, and as stated this is an end game thread, not a T6 or lower thread so if you're not O.K. with that you have every right not to post, or to say you disagree. Don't monopolize this thread with false information please, because I for one don't believe that great big -20% is anything but a punishment for using tools that we need to use to progress. Neither do I believe in the idiocy that leads people to believe that it is O.K. to remove performance from one area of a class/build to cover a bigger lack of performance in another area. I'm talking about the opinions you've stated multiple times in your posts.
You obviously don;t understand math.
Go put oin a 2H weapon. Now turn on HS and equip a shield. Congrats you just gained 20% damage. Furthermore the -20% penalty EXAGGERATES the effect (read: amplifies) any flat % bonuses including that of AC. The -20% does nothing except keep the passive in line with the other damage passives available to the class. No more, no less.
I understand from your posts that you are a passionate person about 1h, so I invite you to create a thread that looks at what would be needed to buff them. Because at the end of the day we as a class are not doing enough damage for high progression, and the first thing that jumps out at me is a giant -20% next to damage granted by skills, which becomes +15% when I activate AC. Not 35%, as advertised. Trying to tell me that I'm actually buffed by 43% is laughable when you consider that damage for all 2h weps regardless of class was buffed. Not just damage for crusaders, all classes.
I'm not passionate about 1H. I'm passionate about stopping stupid ignorant BS. If you actually understand how math works you'd understand that the -20% penalty doesn't turn AC into a 15% damage buff. It turns it into a 43% damage buff.
For non HS
100% + 35% = 135%, +35% relative damage
For HS
80%+35% = 115%, +43% relative damage
That's it. No smoke and mirrors. No fantasy land math. The benefits from AC are GREATER when you have HS than when you don't.
Unless your math shows crusaders doing 20% more baseline damage than every other class, I see no reason for this debuff that is HS. If you want to bring the shield argument up, your more than welome to it, but Unrelenting Phalanx/FR don't stack up to other "class specific" slot equips, such as Vial Ward, Bombadiers Rucksack, Met.Bolts, Mask of Jeram/TMF. WD's have their own set of issues in progression, but damage done when pets are alive isn't one of them trust me. Which is not to say nerf others, leave them alone. In the case of barb it seems a bad joke to give them tools capable of clearing trash to RG in a GR 52 then leaving them with nowhere near enough single target to get the job done. Does not sound rewarding in the slightest. This is also not a 'nerf furnace/unity/soj" etc thread. We like those things, they help with progression and are standards for end game. RROG as well.
HS is competing with other passives. Not with other classes. A Crusader wielding a 2H weapon without a shield does more or less EXACTLY the damage a Barbarian or Monk does. +/- passive damage choices of which Crusader, completely ignoring HS, generally has superior or more reliable multipliers from.
Finery is +15%, No clause
Holy Cause is 10%, No Clause
Lord Commander is 20%, No clause, On the only skill being used
Then comes HS, providing another 20% damage all the time, another 6% while akarat is up, and has absolutely no downside unless you're a complete dumbass.
That's 4 damage passives that in a WORST CASE scenario (additive) are providing a 55% damage bonus. In reality the bonus is more like +86% damage
How's that compare to damage multiplier on passives form barb? Well I'll assume the bonus is all multiplicative, since that's the best case scenario (and three of the damage bonuses on Crusader are multiplicative in nature).
Ruthless +40% damage 30% of the time (+12% damage)
Berserker Rage +25% damage
Rampage +25% damage (except against rift bosses taking longer than 8 seconds, but we'll assume that can be ignored)
Total damage bonus form passives +75%
Wait. You mean the top damage multiplier from a crusader's passives is better than a Barb's? Yes. Yes it is. And you get to keep a cheat death from akkan. And let me clarify: the top ranked crusader and the top ranked barbarian on diabloprogress (accurate enough) have for all intents and purposes the same elemental sheet DPS and is running a damn condemn build. There isn't any kind of problem with the available passive multipliers for Crusader.
Unless you operate under the premise that crusaders do that much more damage than other classes baseline, which we don't. We don't even have the best weapon scaling, that goes to barbs and dh next I believe. As far as the validity of your math, sorry but you'll have to actually top the kill time of a crusader with roughly the same stat with the only difference being a 1h for me to believe. Reason being that type of D3V gear testing leaves out crit/crit damage/leg affixes which do affect game play/performance in a huge way. The reason that DH/WD use spread sheets was to get around this and remove any bias in results from omission of data.
Crusaders are shafted in damage multipliers on gear, and WD on skills. That has absolutely nothing to do with HS.
As far as your oppinion that HS is better than its peers, you just had the bad luck of trying that argument on someone who plays WD/Sader/DH/Barb. A lot. Every other 20% passive destroys HS based on the fact that you can use whatever weapon you want without losing damage from your class specific on use cool down outside of base damage lost for weapon selection. Those talents even leave room for further reward, an aware WD who uses spirit walk well will have a much greater uptime on 5 stack GF. if you want to bring up the mana usage from PTV that is negated in several ways, which involve playcraft and gearing. So too with a demon hunter who is well practiced with Steady Aim and Nightstalker. NS is a defensive talent but a very powerful and engaging one that is a blast to play with.
HS is at the very least equivalent to all other 20% damage passives. The fact that it's "weapon specific" has no bearing. 1H has fervor, which as I've admitted is undertuned as of the HS rework. And of course the only weapons in the game for non-int non-dex classes worth using are, get this, 2H weapons. Even including class specifics.
And by "only weapons" I mean to say "Furnace"
Please feel free to make a thread regarding the state of 1h v2h in game currently, I'd support it. As far as this thread is concerned, the guy who I asked not to post provided more factual information with one sentance than you've managed in numberous posts, that sentance being " we don't clear trash as fast as a barb." Look at the vid for the 44 clear by Alkizer, then look at at the video of Wudjio's 49 clear or the R1 Barb clear. Either of two mentioned would have done that 44 rift in probably under ten minutes, I'm not slighting Alkizer in the slighest.I'm glad people are pushing this class and hope for further progression. Doesn't have to come from me, would be nice but if its not then the world keeps spinning. If you think that Crusaders deal 20% more baseline damage than other classes then I think our conversation is over, much to the relief of the mod's I'll bet, and I bid you good day.
There is precisely 1 reason why Crusader is behind everyone else. No free damage. The "best" build is stuck with a 490% weapon damage spender, while other builds are running 1000% damage non-cost skills and have affixes granting 3000% free weapon damage every few seconds.
And now. Let's get this clear.
I never once said Crusader's dealt 20% baseline better damage than other classes. I said that the -20% penalty on HS is not in fact a punishment and does not in fact make the passive weak. It converts a +50% damage passive into a +20% damage passive. It amplifies untyped +% damage. It happens to have no real competition. That is all truth.
What is not truth is that the penalty is in any way a "punishment".
Crusader base DPS with a 2H weapon (no shield) is not in any significant way different from other classes. The presence of a penalty on HS does not in any significant way effect Crusader DPS such as to unduly handicap them. It serves only to keep the damage bonus from HS on par with most passives. What is significantly impacting performance is complete lack of effective crowd management without resource burn, and a complete lack of power multipliers on Akkan (Roland's has plenty of power multiplier, it suffers from GR scaling) or other gear slots.
You are clearly an idiot, the bonus granted by ac while using a 2h is 15%, check your character screen for proper numbers, and please have class knowledge before coming in here and trying to sell anyone that this class is "fine" when its getting dominated on the leader boards. Big reason? damage. Reason number 2 mostly melee. You're also saying that being able to equip a shield, any shield is a 20% gain to damage flat. Wrong dead wrong. Don't need any math to know that, because I play the game.
Toe to Toe Crusader gets shit on by barb,dh,wd and maybe wiz @ a decent level of optomization. My wd can drop a gr 40 rg in under a minute, my dh can do a 40 in 70s. My Crusader? 3 fucking minutes. 180s. You have zero understanding of how the debuf for AC/2h works, you still think that the -20% goes to base weapon damage, which it does not. Stop posting.
Do you understand how multipliers work?
Prior to AC you have a "-20%" bonus. after AC you have a "+15%" bonus. you've gained +35% from activating AC and the effective change (how much your damage actually increases) is a 43% bonus. It's basic math.
And I will repeat: Crusader is being shit on because they have no force multipliers on gear. Phalanx shield and that's it. Other clssses are running +3000% weapon damage DoT effects, 15billion DPS procs, 5x full damage spenders. Crusader is running "here's a mediocre spender, twice".
HS and AC are both global factors. They're additive with each other and multiplicative with other factors. They are in FACT analogous to base weapon damage multipliers.
Let's get away from math for a second, you don't seem to understand that when you start with a negative amount of something any addition that puts you into a positive value isn't a total number buff, its only a buff when you've over come the negative value. That's the buff amount, what your left with after clearing the negative value.
What level gr progression is your highest, on any character in solo play? I'm 39 on my Crusader, 37 on DH,36 on WD. I ran the wd/dh for some change of flavor when I get sick of losing a ton of damage from stampede to horrid maps.
Let's get away from math for a second, you don't seem to understand that when you start with a negative amount of something any addition that puts you into a positive value isn't a total number buff, its only a buff when you've over come the negative value. That's the buff amount, what your left with after clearing the negative value.
What level gr progression is your highest, on any character in solo play? I'm 39 on my Crusader, 37 on DH,36 on WD. I ran the wd/dh for some change of flavor when I get sick of losing a ton of damage from stampede to horrid maps.
That's not how "buffs" work. In fact that's not how math works at all. Further that's not how the functional benefit of HS works out.
HS is balanced relative to 1H weapons. For better or worse. And equipping HS is equivalent to a +20% damage BUFF over using a 1H. It's in direct competition with Fervor, but for the purposes of this discussion that doesn't actually matter. It happens to be in indirect competition with no-shield. But for the purposes of any build that isn't holy shotgun this, once again, does not matter for the purposes of this discussion. And it barely matters for shotgun.
When you're using HS (for the purposes of this discussion you're not using Holy Cause). And you cast AC. You gain 43% damage. Done. That's everything you need to know. There's no weaseling out of it. Doesn't matter if you have a 1H weapon on (like an idiot). Doesn't matter if you have a 2H weapon on. You just gained 43% damage.
Now let's go equip an imaginary 1H passive that says "+20% Damage"
You cast AC. How much damage do you get? I'll give you a hint: it's not 35%.
It's 30%.
That's how relative damage works. HS amplifies the relative bonus of ANY +% damage global modifier you have effecting you. Just because you have some value of negative modifier does NOT mean other bonuses are weaker.
Heavenly Strength allows you to equip weapons that are 50% more damaging (actually on average a bit more than that in the damage department, but true enough for DPS) while retaining the use of a shield. The catch is you take a 20% penalty to total damage (mechanically this is a -20% global modifier). This results in a total (1.5*0.8) = 1.2, or 20%, bonus to damage. HS never put you in the negative, unless you want to insist that losing a bit of top end damage compared to just having a 2H equipped (+"50%" damage) counts, but given how the class mechanics works you'd have to be an idiot to make that argument.
Edit: Average 2H raw damage is 90% greater than 1H.
lol lol you scrubs. get back on topic. no one cares about 1h or 2h weapons. HS is fine because we get a shield too (maybe the dmg decrease could be a LITTLE less but thats nitpicking).
the reason why saders are stuck is because of the one and only one reason someone else stated above somewhere:
we have to stick around and take dmg that other classes can avoid.
dh's are completely broken with perma smokescreen and sentries in general (havent played ptr, hopefully changes combined with new dh set will fix dh. dh is an archery class not a retarded engineer class. sentries have made dh unplayable to me)
wizard firebird is burn while running away
raekor barb is perma stun while push/dragging stuff around
monk solo rift is probably worse off than sader so ill leave that alone
havent played wd in a long long time, so i cant comment on that.
the problem is condemn in a group with blade of prophecy equipped is probably the most dps in the game, but we have to stand around in the middle while face tanking...trying to play with flawed vacuum pull mechanics to stay safe and proc strongarm. falls well short of barbs perma cc raekor charge also with strongarm
so..some people try to avoid the damage altogether with phalanx stampede! then youre a ranged class and youre compared to dh's and wiz's which are SUPER safe with more or equal damage.
what are the improvements necessary you ask? increase condemn damage to not have to face tank as long. increase tankiness drastically so we can stick around in the middle condemning.
roland wont work because AC is required. AC requirement wont change unless theres a HUGE crusader overhaul, which blizzard will never do. stampede shouldnt be compared to condemn because comparing melee with ranged is too different. When compared to ranged classes, phalanx is simply trash and cant be saved without a class changing overhaul or introduction of game breaking weapons. Seriously to compare to (current) DH phalanx would need some rune that makes it spawn illusions that also cast phalanx with no damage gimp PLUS almost permanent invincibility (constant invulnerability passive or something). To compare with wiz it would have to be phalanx dmg burns permanently while the sader rides his horsie around finding new mobs.
If a crusader gets perfect flavor of time and a perfect furnace , we could possibly get to GR45ish onwards given a good density rift.
(The rest of the akkhan pieces are easy to come by so i'll skip that.) but as everyone knows a furnace is f**king rare let alone a perfect 1.
Next issue will be the actually mechanics of Akkhan - 56% CDR for perma akkhan , this should be lowered. And no , non-perma akkhan builds does not work rolands is bad and noobish i will auto salvage it, crusaders melt without akkhan's 150% armor bonus. Yes MELT and die like shit even in T6 ( just short of melting).
Shield / Ring 1 / Ring 2 / Gloves / Shoulder / Belt / Paragon all must have perfect CDR in other to have perma akkhan (The last bit will have to come from either your weapon or amulet which is another loss of damage)
This will also mean the upcoming bombardment belt is suited for salvaging except if you found it when you are on your way to level 70 or if blizz is kind enough to let it rolls CDR ;).
in summary : Crusaders will need to be perfectly geared to do above average tanking and mediocre damage. I can gear a DH in a week and kick ass (ok-ish kick ass) but a few months to gear a crusader (unity with CDR took me 2 weeks, and it's not even funny) and I'm still not done. Blizz need to look into the way "flavor of time" rolls for crusader and smart loot CDR and socket in jeweleries for crusaders to make our life less of a torment (lol) to farm for such gear.
Done get me wrong, I have 3 crusaders, seasons + HC and non-seasons, i love the crusader - just not enough to punish myself for another season for yet another CDR loot collection. So i'll probably just play non-seasons in season 2.
How I think it should be fixed : The requirements for perma akkhan will have to come down , (say 40% CDR for perma akkhan?? =p) more crusader gears MUST have CDR as smart loot , Our skill damage have to go up and possibly the whole Akarat's champion skill will have to be buffed where we can use all the different runes with cheat death and armor bonus but differing bonus to actually see some build diversity. Eg Fire = firestarter effects but retains cheat death and 150% armor.
PS : The pony build is our only build besides condemn that works for high GR as "fate of the fell" build simply died as the damage could not keep up , but we cannot bloody kill a corrupt angels or wither moths flying OUT of our hit zones like a CLIFF for example and it is stupid. fix it blizzard.
The only real reason why dh/barbs are so far ahead is both are playing broken specs that make the playing field uneven almost all the other classes/specs are relatively close and will be closer come season 2 expect to see barbs and dhs getting brought down back to reality after the patch is put into place. There isn't anything wrong with Sader but there is something wrong when you compare it to dh/barb.
In regards to GR as crusader the skill level/gear requirements are probably the highest among the classes. Especially playing condemn in gr40+ you just don't have time to make many mistakes. Ponies is a bit more forgiving but again like most other classes pushing 40+ furnace is required and is tought to find honestly it's not more so the class but more so drop rates on spec dependant pieces.
I personally have killed Gr42 solo as condemn however if I had a xephirian with good stats I would have 43-45 down for sure in no time so one piece of gear really changes the game in most cases.
How I think it should be fixed : The requirements for perma akkhan will have to come down , (say 40% CDR for perma akkhan?? =p) more crusader gears MUST have CDR as smart loot , Our skill damage have to go up and possibly the whole Akarat's champion skill will have to be buffed where we can use all the different runes with cheat death and armor bonus but differing bonus to actually see some build diversity. Eg Fire = firestarter effects but retains cheat death and 150% armor.
PS : The pony build is our only build besides condemn that works for high GR as "fate of the fell" build simply died as the damage could not keep up , but we cannot bloody kill a corrupt angels or wither moths flying OUT of our hit zones like a CLIFF for example and it is stupid. fix it blizzard.
Or... you know...
Roland's could have "Gain 30% armour for 30 seconds stacking up to 5 times on use of shield bash or sweep." There you go. Now roland's is viable.
There isn't anything wrong with Sader but there is something wrong when you compare it to dh/barb.
Add Firebird wiz in that list because they just have to nuke to 3000% and things will die guaranteed, and all of a sudden you're saying there's only something wrong with sader when compared to half of the classes. Also, I'm hearing DH got buffed which is hilarious.
Firebird is op in t6 they have the same progression as Sader in gr they aren't op in gr but they excell in t6. And dhs on ptr are op right now but that damage will most likely get scaled down. His post is why don't saders hit 50+ and the reason is simply that we don't have a broken spec or gear set that sets us apart like dhs and barbs sets do. And for all you people saying well what can they change to get us up there. Ancient gear is what will allow us to push further up the ladder in season 2 especially with ancient weapons.
There isn't anything wrong with Sader but there is something wrong when you compare it to dh/barb.
Add Firebird wiz in that list because they just have to nuke to 3000% and things will die guaranteed, and all of a sudden you're saying there's only something wrong with sader when compared to half of the classes. Also, I'm hearing DH got buffed which is hilarious.
DH was buffed... As long as you're just spamming elemental arrow and staying near your enemies.
There isn't anything wrong with Sader but there is something wrong when you compare it to dh/barb.
Add Firebird wiz in that list because they just have to nuke to 3000% and things will die guaranteed, and all of a sudden you're saying there's only something wrong with sader when compared to half of the classes. Also, I'm hearing DH got buffed which is hilarious.
DH was buffed... As long as you're just spamming elemental arrow and staying near your enemies.
Wasn't there just a video saying sentry range is huge in PTR? I didn't watch it myself because I find sentry DHs lame and boring. Firebird wiz is broken on GR because they can nuke and run. Any class that can do damage without taking damage while moving through a GR transcends sader.
The range is probably a bug. But even then you the sentries need you to see tehir targets to take aim last I checked. And of course any build that isn't EA spam is more or less hatred gated.
Then explain why firebird isn't breaking into high 49s-50s because they aren't that op they have strengths which that is one but it doesn't make them superior whatsoever .
Looks like the performance gap is going to get bigger with the new dh setups, not that I hate I have one and am glad that they are going back to a player driven setup.
I find it funny that blizzard was concerned about 'balance' going into this season and let Crusaders/WD(don't play wiz/monk, don't care either) into the season with about 1/2 the damage potential when looking at near full optimization. It makes me laugh when I have a lightning sentry dh that can do damn near 1b dmg per second (much much more in a non single target situation) to my sader's 200m single target. I think the dh is fine where it is, no need for nerf etc. Hope barb gets single target love, and I hope that this class gets a complete overhaul from someone who sees further than mediocre T4-6 builds.
As far as posting, top 250 on the crusader lb or no one gives a shit. My name on the thread op I want to know that I'm talking to people who put in effort and know the class before I waste my time with idiots looking to troll.
How I think it should be fixed : The requirements for perma akkhan will have to come down , (say 40% CDR for perma akkhan?? =p) more crusader gears MUST have CDR as smart loot , Our skill damage have to go up and possibly the whole Akarat's champion skill will have to be buffed where we can use all the different runes with cheat death and armor bonus but differing bonus to actually see some build diversity. Eg Fire = firestarter effects but retains cheat death and 150% armor.
PS : The pony build is our only build besides condemn that works for high GR as "fate of the fell" build simply died as the damage could not keep up , but we cannot bloody kill a corrupt angels or wither moths flying OUT of our hit zones like a CLIFF for example and it is stupid. fix it blizzard.
Or... you know...
Roland's could have "Gain 30% armour for 30 seconds stacking up to 5 times on use of shield bash or sweep." There you go. Now roland's is viable.
Issue here is blizzard don't see it. There's also issue with CC immunity. Besides iron skin we dont really have much CC immunity skills. Maybe a belt that doubles iron skin duration ? Lol..
Edit : Maybe if blizzard gives the roland set "reduce cooldown of ironskin by 50%" affix would make it slightly more viable. Then again it kinda lack creativity and is just a reharsh of the akkhan set, don't think many people will want to see that.
Rolands would need a complete overhaul to be even considered for use in endgame. Buff to armor, double steel skin etc all nice for t6, worthless past gr 38. That may be gr 48 next season but worthless to the endgame is what this set is.
Akkhan stampede would destroy a rolands set in damage just with the mechanic of how they work, what I mean is that I can fill my screen with adds and ponies will hit the majority of them with proper positioning. No amount of positioning/inflated sheet dps will let a roland setup match stamp on that alone, never mind the glaring survival/wrath issues. The points about the Akkhan runes were well made though, interesting idea.
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Dude if you remove the items mentioned you'd be left with the fact that those classes have passives that buff them no matter the weapon choice. My argument uses those items to overkill my point, its why you apply your argument to some examples I used, not all, and in an incorrect way to boot. In the case of BF you tried, but since you don't seem to understand how barbs generate/maintain fury you end up coming out on the weaker side of the argument once again. It is very easy and fluid to use ww in a EQ t6 farm build, and never ever dip below 90% fury even single target on a rift guardian.I do it all the time and never do I go below 90%. As far as endgame EQ from what I've seen they don't use spenders, so no punishment there what so ever. Raekors falls into the same catagory. In the case of GF, globe generation can be assured with several talent selections, and further augmented by an amulet equip, I.E. in that case it is up to the player to maintain the buff. Failure to do so means that player must get better at keeping stacks up if the talent is to remain optimal.
Gruesome Feast/Pierce the Veil etc, were mentioned for the specific reason that they are part of end game builds, and do not in any way interact with weapon selection, none of the passives I mentioned interact with weapon selection in that way, nor should they, it creates poor diversity choices, and a glass ceiling for progression. Not saying that the current set based meta doesn't do just that it does, but not on the same level. Neither does the base damage of Companion Call: Wolf, Big Bad Vodoo, nor Wrath of the Berzerker see any sort of modification to damage to 'preserve balance' within those classes
If I were wrong about HS being a debuff, then you could remove it and not see a difference in damage. As it is, it does lower damage in a very specific way, by removing 20% of the 35% bonus from AC based on the weapon used. An affix that lowers damage or performance in that way is a....debuff. If you removed that debuff you would see a gap widen between 1h/2h for crusaders, and as stated this is an end game thread, not a T6 or lower thread so if you're not O.K. with that you have every right not to post, or to say you disagree. Don't monopolize this thread with false information please, because I for one don't believe that great big -20% is anything but a punishment for using tools that we need to use to progress. Neither do I believe in the idiocy that leads people to believe that it is O.K. to remove performance from one area of a class/build to cover a bigger lack of performance in another area. I'm talking about the opinions you've stated multiple times in your posts.
I understand from your posts that you are a passionate person about 1h, so I invite you to create a thread that looks at what would be needed to buff them. Because at the end of the day we as a class are not doing enough damage for high progression, and the first thing that jumps out at me is a giant -20% next to damage granted by skills, which becomes +15% when I activate AC. Not 35%, as advertised. Trying to tell me that I'm actually buffed by 43% is laughable when you consider that damage for all 2h weps regardless of class was buffed. Not just damage for crusaders, all classes.
Unless your math shows crusaders doing 20% more baseline damage than every other class, I see no reason for this debuff that is HS. If you want to bring the shield argument up, your more than welome to it, but Unrelenting Phalanx/FR don't stack up to other "class specific" slot equips, such as Vial Ward, Bombadiers Rucksack, Met.Bolts, Mask of Jeram/TMF. WD's have their own set of issues in progression, but damage done when pets are alive isn't one of them trust me. Which is not to say nerf others, leave them alone. In the case of barb it seems a bad joke to give them tools capable of clearing trash to RG in a GR 52 then leaving them with nowhere near enough single target to get the job done. Does not sound rewarding in the slightest. This is also not a 'nerf furnace/unity/soj" etc thread. We like those things, they help with progression and are standards for end game. RROG as well.
Unless you operate under the premise that crusaders do that much more damage than other classes baseline, which we don't. We don't even have the best weapon scaling, that goes to barbs and dh next I believe. As far as the validity of your math, sorry but you'll have to actually top the kill time of a crusader with roughly the same stat with the only difference being a 1h for me to believe. Reason being that type of D3V gear testing leaves out crit/crit damage/leg affixes which do affect game play/performance in a huge way. The reason that DH/WD use spread sheets was to get around this and remove any bias in results from omission of data.
As far as your oppinion that HS is better than its peers, you just had the bad luck of trying that argument on someone who plays WD/Sader/DH/Barb. A lot. Every other 20% passive destroys HS based on the fact that you can use whatever weapon you want without losing damage from your class specific on use cool down outside of base damage lost for weapon selection. Those talents even leave room for further reward, an aware WD who uses spirit walk well will have a much greater uptime on 5 stack GF. if you want to bring up the mana usage from PTV that is negated in several ways, which involve playcraft and gearing. So too with a demon hunter who is well practiced with Steady Aim and Nightstalker. NS is a defensive talent but a very powerful and engaging one that is a blast to play with.
Please feel free to make a thread regarding the state of 1h v2h in game currently, I'd support it. As far as this thread is concerned, the guy who I asked not to post provided more factual information with one sentance than you've managed in numberous posts, that sentance being " we don't clear trash as fast as a barb." Look at the vid for the 44 clear by Alkizer, then look at at the video of Wudjio's 49 clear or the R1 Barb clear. Either of two mentioned would have done that 44 rift in probably under ten minutes, I'm not slighting Alkizer in the slighest.I'm glad people are pushing this class and hope for further progression. Doesn't have to come from me, would be nice but if its not then the world keeps spinning. If you think that Crusaders deal 20% more baseline damage than other classes then I think our conversation is over, much to the relief of the mod's I'll bet, and I bid you good day.
Oh so you mean that those passives work when you're doing what they're designed to do? Who'da thunk it.
There's no reasonable situation in which the 20% penalty on HS is causing the passive to be a negative effect.
There are precisely two Crusader weapon-interactive passives. One of them gives +20% DPS, the other doesn;t get used because it's a 1H passive.
You obviously don;t understand math.
Go put oin a 2H weapon. Now turn on HS and equip a shield. Congrats you just gained 20% damage. Furthermore the -20% penalty EXAGGERATES the effect (read: amplifies) any flat % bonuses including that of AC. The -20% does nothing except keep the passive in line with the other damage passives available to the class. No more, no less.
I'm not passionate about 1H. I'm passionate about stopping stupid ignorant BS. If you actually understand how math works you'd understand that the -20% penalty doesn't turn AC into a 15% damage buff. It turns it into a 43% damage buff.
For non HS
100% + 35% = 135%, +35% relative damage
For HS
80%+35% = 115%, +43% relative damage
That's it. No smoke and mirrors. No fantasy land math. The benefits from AC are GREATER when you have HS than when you don't.
HS is competing with other passives. Not with other classes. A Crusader wielding a 2H weapon without a shield does more or less EXACTLY the damage a Barbarian or Monk does. +/- passive damage choices of which Crusader, completely ignoring HS, generally has superior or more reliable multipliers from.
Finery is +15%, No clause
Holy Cause is 10%, No Clause
Lord Commander is 20%, No clause, On the only skill being used
Then comes HS, providing another 20% damage all the time, another 6% while akarat is up, and has absolutely no downside unless you're a complete dumbass.
That's 4 damage passives that in a WORST CASE scenario (additive) are providing a 55% damage bonus. In reality the bonus is more like +86% damage
How's that compare to damage multiplier on passives form barb? Well I'll assume the bonus is all multiplicative, since that's the best case scenario (and three of the damage bonuses on Crusader are multiplicative in nature).
Ruthless +40% damage 30% of the time (+12% damage)
Berserker Rage +25% damage
Rampage +25% damage (except against rift bosses taking longer than 8 seconds, but we'll assume that can be ignored)
Total damage bonus form passives +75%
Wait. You mean the top damage multiplier from a crusader's passives is better than a Barb's? Yes. Yes it is. And you get to keep a cheat death from akkan. And let me clarify: the top ranked crusader and the top ranked barbarian on diabloprogress (accurate enough) have for all intents and purposes the same elemental sheet DPS and is running a damn condemn build. There isn't any kind of problem with the available passive multipliers for Crusader.
Crusaders are shafted in damage multipliers on gear, and WD on skills. That has absolutely nothing to do with HS.
HS is at the very least equivalent to all other 20% damage passives. The fact that it's "weapon specific" has no bearing. 1H has fervor, which as I've admitted is undertuned as of the HS rework. And of course the only weapons in the game for non-int non-dex classes worth using are, get this, 2H weapons. Even including class specifics.
And by "only weapons" I mean to say "Furnace"
There is precisely 1 reason why Crusader is behind everyone else. No free damage. The "best" build is stuck with a 490% weapon damage spender, while other builds are running 1000% damage non-cost skills and have affixes granting 3000% free weapon damage every few seconds.
And now. Let's get this clear.
I never once said Crusader's dealt 20% baseline better damage than other classes. I said that the -20% penalty on HS is not in fact a punishment and does not in fact make the passive weak. It converts a +50% damage passive into a +20% damage passive. It amplifies untyped +% damage. It happens to have no real competition. That is all truth.
What is not truth is that the penalty is in any way a "punishment".
Crusader base DPS with a 2H weapon (no shield) is not in any significant way different from other classes. The presence of a penalty on HS does not in any significant way effect Crusader DPS such as to unduly handicap them. It serves only to keep the damage bonus from HS on par with most passives. What is significantly impacting performance is complete lack of effective crowd management without resource burn, and a complete lack of power multipliers on Akkan (Roland's has plenty of power multiplier, it suffers from GR scaling) or other gear slots.
Should be 100%+15%, because that's what you actually get.
Prior to AC you have a "-20%" bonus. after AC you have a "+15%" bonus. you've gained +35% from activating AC and the effective change (how much your damage actually increases) is a 43% bonus. It's basic math.
And I will repeat: Crusader is being shit on because they have no force multipliers on gear. Phalanx shield and that's it. Other clssses are running +3000% weapon damage DoT effects, 15billion DPS procs, 5x full damage spenders. Crusader is running "here's a mediocre spender, twice".
Damage = Base Damage * (Elemental+sSkill) * (Global Factors) * (Elite Damage)
HS and AC are both global factors. They're additive with each other and multiplicative with other factors. They are in FACT analogous to base weapon damage multipliers.
What level gr progression is your highest, on any character in solo play? I'm 39 on my Crusader, 37 on DH,36 on WD. I ran the wd/dh for some change of flavor when I get sick of losing a ton of damage from stampede to horrid maps.
HS is balanced relative to 1H weapons. For better or worse. And equipping HS is equivalent to a +20% damage BUFF over using a 1H. It's in direct competition with Fervor, but for the purposes of this discussion that doesn't actually matter. It happens to be in indirect competition with no-shield. But for the purposes of any build that isn't holy shotgun this, once again, does not matter for the purposes of this discussion. And it barely matters for shotgun.
When you're using HS (for the purposes of this discussion you're not using Holy Cause). And you cast AC. You gain 43% damage. Done. That's everything you need to know. There's no weaseling out of it. Doesn't matter if you have a 1H weapon on (like an idiot). Doesn't matter if you have a 2H weapon on. You just gained 43% damage.
Now let's go equip an imaginary 1H passive that says "+20% Damage"
You cast AC. How much damage do you get? I'll give you a hint: it's not 35%.
It's 30%.
That's how relative damage works. HS amplifies the relative bonus of ANY +% damage global modifier you have effecting you. Just because you have some value of negative modifier does NOT mean other bonuses are weaker.
Heavenly Strength allows you to equip weapons that are 50% more damaging (actually on average a bit more than that in the damage department, but true enough for DPS) while retaining the use of a shield. The catch is you take a 20% penalty to total damage (mechanically this is a -20% global modifier). This results in a total (1.5*0.8) = 1.2, or 20%, bonus to damage. HS never put you in the negative, unless you want to insist that losing a bit of top end damage compared to just having a 2H equipped (+"50%" damage) counts, but given how the class mechanics works you'd have to be an idiot to make that argument.
Edit: Average 2H raw damage is 90% greater than 1H.
the reason why saders are stuck is because of the one and only one reason someone else stated above somewhere:
we have to stick around and take dmg that other classes can avoid.
dh's are completely broken with perma smokescreen and sentries in general (havent played ptr, hopefully changes combined with new dh set will fix dh. dh is an archery class not a retarded engineer class. sentries have made dh unplayable to me)
wizard firebird is burn while running away
raekor barb is perma stun while push/dragging stuff around
monk solo rift is probably worse off than sader so ill leave that alone
havent played wd in a long long time, so i cant comment on that.
the problem is condemn in a group with blade of prophecy equipped is probably the most dps in the game, but we have to stand around in the middle while face tanking...trying to play with flawed vacuum pull mechanics to stay safe and proc strongarm. falls well short of barbs perma cc raekor charge also with strongarm
so..some people try to avoid the damage altogether with phalanx stampede! then youre a ranged class and youre compared to dh's and wiz's which are SUPER safe with more or equal damage.
what are the improvements necessary you ask? increase condemn damage to not have to face tank as long. increase tankiness drastically so we can stick around in the middle condemning.
roland wont work because AC is required. AC requirement wont change unless theres a HUGE crusader overhaul, which blizzard will never do. stampede shouldnt be compared to condemn because comparing melee with ranged is too different. When compared to ranged classes, phalanx is simply trash and cant be saved without a class changing overhaul or introduction of game breaking weapons. Seriously to compare to (current) DH phalanx would need some rune that makes it spawn illusions that also cast phalanx with no damage gimp PLUS almost permanent invincibility (constant invulnerability passive or something). To compare with wiz it would have to be phalanx dmg burns permanently while the sader rides his horsie around finding new mobs.
If a crusader gets perfect flavor of time and a perfect furnace , we could possibly get to GR45ish onwards given a good density rift.
(The rest of the akkhan pieces are easy to come by so i'll skip that.) but as everyone knows a furnace is f**king rare let alone a perfect 1.
Next issue will be the actually mechanics of Akkhan - 56% CDR for perma akkhan , this should be lowered. And no , non-perma akkhan builds does not work rolands is bad and noobish i will auto salvage it, crusaders melt without akkhan's 150% armor bonus. Yes MELT and die like shit even in T6 ( just short of melting).
Shield / Ring 1 / Ring 2 / Gloves / Shoulder / Belt / Paragon all must have perfect CDR in other to have perma akkhan (The last bit will have to come from either your weapon or amulet which is another loss of damage)
This will also mean the upcoming bombardment belt is suited for salvaging except if you found it when you are on your way to level 70 or if blizz is kind enough to let it rolls CDR ;).
in summary : Crusaders will need to be perfectly geared to do above average tanking and mediocre damage. I can gear a DH in a week and kick ass (ok-ish kick ass) but a few months to gear a crusader (unity with CDR took me 2 weeks, and it's not even funny) and I'm still not done. Blizz need to look into the way "flavor of time" rolls for crusader and smart loot CDR and socket in jeweleries for crusaders to make our life less of a torment (lol) to farm for such gear.
Done get me wrong, I have 3 crusaders, seasons + HC and non-seasons, i love the crusader - just not enough to punish myself for another season for yet another CDR loot collection. So i'll probably just play non-seasons in season 2.
How I think it should be fixed : The requirements for perma akkhan will have to come down , (say 40% CDR for perma akkhan?? =p) more crusader gears MUST have CDR as smart loot , Our skill damage have to go up and possibly the whole Akarat's champion skill will have to be buffed where we can use all the different runes with cheat death and armor bonus but differing bonus to actually see some build diversity. Eg Fire = firestarter effects but retains cheat death and 150% armor.
PS : The pony build is our only build besides condemn that works for high GR as "fate of the fell" build simply died as the damage could not keep up , but we cannot bloody kill a corrupt angels or wither moths flying OUT of our hit zones like a CLIFF for example and it is stupid. fix it blizzard.
The only real reason why dh/barbs are so far ahead is both are playing broken specs that make the playing field uneven almost all the other classes/specs are relatively close and will be closer come season 2 expect to see barbs and dhs getting brought down back to reality after the patch is put into place. There isn't anything wrong with Sader but there is something wrong when you compare it to dh/barb.
In regards to GR as crusader the skill level/gear requirements are probably the highest among the classes. Especially playing condemn in gr40+ you just don't have time to make many mistakes. Ponies is a bit more forgiving but again like most other classes pushing 40+ furnace is required and is tought to find honestly it's not more so the class but more so drop rates on spec dependant pieces.
I personally have killed Gr42 solo as condemn however if I had a xephirian with good stats I would have 43-45 down for sure in no time so one piece of gear really changes the game in most cases.
What class is harder in your opinion really? And if you haven't even got in the top 500 your opinion is useless.
Roland's could have "Gain 30% armour for 30 seconds stacking up to 5 times on use of shield bash or sweep." There you go. Now roland's is viable.
Firebird is op in t6 they have the same progression as Sader in gr they aren't op in gr but they excell in t6. And dhs on ptr are op right now but that damage will most likely get scaled down.
His post is why don't saders hit 50+ and the reason is simply that we don't have a broken spec or gear set that sets us apart like dhs and barbs sets do. And for all you people saying well what can they change to get us up there. Ancient gear is what will allow us to push further up the ladder in season 2 especially with ancient weapons.
Then explain why firebird isn't breaking into high 49s-50s because they aren't that op they have strengths which that is one but it doesn't make them superior whatsoever .
I find it funny that blizzard was concerned about 'balance' going into this season and let Crusaders/WD(don't play wiz/monk, don't care either) into the season with about 1/2 the damage potential when looking at near full optimization. It makes me laugh when I have a lightning sentry dh that can do damn near 1b dmg per second (much much more in a non single target situation) to my sader's 200m single target. I think the dh is fine where it is, no need for nerf etc. Hope barb gets single target love, and I hope that this class gets a complete overhaul from someone who sees further than mediocre T4-6 builds.
As far as posting, top 250 on the crusader lb or no one gives a shit. My name on the thread op I want to know that I'm talking to people who put in effort and know the class before I waste my time with idiots looking to troll.
Edit : Maybe if blizzard gives the roland set "reduce cooldown of ironskin by 50%" affix would make it slightly more viable. Then again it kinda lack creativity and is just a reharsh of the akkhan set, don't think many people will want to see that.
Akkhan stampede would destroy a rolands set in damage just with the mechanic of how they work, what I mean is that I can fill my screen with adds and ponies will hit the majority of them with proper positioning. No amount of positioning/inflated sheet dps will let a roland setup match stamp on that alone, never mind the glaring survival/wrath issues. The points about the Akkhan runes were well made though, interesting idea.