I will not keep my comments to myself. This is a forum, and my opinion is as valid as yours. Firestarter is retarded, I would prefer if my actual skills did damage and not a dot applied from this one skill, which makes it mandatory. I want choice, this skill gives me none.
If a skill is mandatory for 99% of builds then it is a terrible balance.

Clears t6 without Unity. NEver used Firestarter over 2 saders in any build.

You were saying?

You use shotgun. That's what I was saying. This is the one build that does not benefit from firestarter.

I will not keep my comments to myself. This is a forum, and my opinion is as valid as yours. Firestarter is retarded, I would prefer if my actual skills did damage and not a dot applied from this one skill, which makes it mandatory. I want choice, this skill gives me none.
If a skill is mandatory for 99% of builds then it is a terrible balance.

Clears t6 without Unity. NEver used Firestarter over 2 saders in any build.

You were saying?

You use shotgun. That's what I was saying. This is the one build that does not benefit from firestarter.

Brienne is the Crusader I was referring to; sorry my bad She doesn't use Firestarter or Holy Shotgun. Maybe she'd do a truckload more damage if she did; but it isn't mandatory by any stretch of the word.

Fire starter applies dot that deals 460 dmg per 3 seconds so almost 153% of your damage per second with every instance of damage that you deal to the monster. So you basically have high attack speed with the 1 hander thus casting a lot of FotH. Each of the casts will apply stacking dot from the initial hit, then some of the 4 small bolts might hit as well, the ticking cloud is also applying the dot. I would say that in matter of 3-4 seconds (especially if you are at melee range) you will apply the Fire Starter DoT so many times that ticks of 100m are not that fictional as you might think.

Interesting. Appreciate your honest response.

Personally, I've been playing with Fire Starter in a lot of builds (not all of them) and I never noticed it reaching such ridiculously high ticks. Then again, my gear isn't that good yet and I never really payed close attention to the ticks.

How is it reaching 100mil ticks in under 3 seconds though? Do Phalanx Avatars apply stacks? Is that why I've seen people running them in certain builds? Does ALL damage apply stacks (including each tick of the FotH Heaven's Tempest dot)? Cause if so, then that would explain why FotH felt so damn strong during single target.

Every single instance of damage procs fire starter and indeed the FotH dot on the ground does that as well (multiple times). I am also running Bul Kathos ring which also does little to no actual dmg but the proc stacks fire starter. The ring on its own stacks fire starter as high as 8-9 mil per tick. Manner Cookies made really good video on the build and on his gear, the ticks from Bul Kathos are 10mil and above.
Edit: Here is the link to MC's Darklight video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeK7OmJUiUc

edit: Also, I see Washi mentions Shotgun builds don't benefit from Fire Starter. From my limited understanding of the Crusader class, a Shotgun build is basically a FotF build, right? So how is a Shotgun build not benefiting from Fire Starter? (Yea, I know... that's a lot of questions. Feel free to reply to just one if you can though. )

Shotgun is Heaven's Fury - Fires of Heaven. It does massive damage in one shot. So you do not really apply many stacks of firestarter, everything dies in few shots.

so in what second of that video we can see 100m ticks?

p.s. and why you forget to mention that dot stacking only 3sec? so for example with bulkatos you willhave max ticks after 3sec and then all other ticks will be on same level or even smaller if you lose some temp buff... so bullkatos is absolutly useless on high levels. its just ring for catch fun on low torments when you running with perma ac and all dies around. on high torments bulkatos only add about 2m/tick and its nothing not only for elites but even for white mobs. and it can be clearly seen in mannercoockie videos and streams...

Hmmm I would like to see some numbers behind this to be honest.

It's so obvious no numbers need to be shown. You can log on and take a look for yourself. High percentages suffer from extreme diminishing returns, whereas permanent AC allows you to not only spam your abilities (pretty much anything you decide to pick), provides you with 35% increased damage 100% of the time, and if those weren't enough (trust me, they would be), you get Fire Starter, which deals insane damage.

How does it suffer from extreme diminishing returns?

How are the +% damage affixes calculated? Are the %'s additive or multiplicative?

Say you deal a straight 100 damage:

Say 20% from Magefist, 20% bracer, 20% Stone of Jordan = 60% increased damage to the damage? So this would be 160 damage done

Or is it 20% from Magefist = 120 + 20% from Stone of Jordan = 144 +20% bracer = 173?

Not familiar enough with the formula to determine what the sequence should be.

But I would assume if the elemental damage > a flat 35%, that the elemental damage would be preferred correct? How is the DOT calculated from Firestarter?

So if you do 100 damage and you have 100% fire damage you do 200 damage. Adding a piece of gear that adds 20% more fire dmg increases you damage by 10% by that point.

Strictly speaking theres "diminishing returns" after the first piece of elemental gear you put on :p As for pretty much EVERY stat in the game.

So if you do 100 damage and you have 100% fire damage you do 200 damage. Adding a piece of gear that adds 20% more fire dmg increases you damage by 10% by that point.

Strictly speaking theres "diminishing returns" after the first piece of elemental gear you put on :p As for pretty much EVERY stat in the game.

So how is the 35% from Akhan's calculated? I would assume the same way then. So I would assume if you could somehow hit more than an average of 35% all the time would be a larger increase?

Meaning if you have 100 damage and 100% damage + Akhan's Champion (35%) would only be 235.

For example:

20% from Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat would be +50% damage all of the time (+85% half of the time +50% the other half, maybe more if you have CDR), compared to +35% all the time.

Let's assume that if both gear sets are +20% fire damage from both rings and amulet and bracers (+80%) and we are doing a straight 100 damage.

The first case would be +165% fire damage during Champion, and +130% without (approximately half of the time). So 265 + 230 would be an average of 248 damage over all the time.

The second case with perma Champion would be +115% or 215 damage all the time. How much damage does the DOT do? If it would not be equivalent of 33% of your damage, I see the +fire coming out ahead. Even if the Champion is multiplicative, I see the +fire damage coming out ahead. The notes say 460% of your weapon damage over 3 seconds.

Ugh, this is turning out to be too many variables for me to think about right now.

so in what second of that video we can see 100m ticks?

p.s. and why you forget to mention that dot stacking only 3sec? so for example with bulkatos you willhave max ticks after 3sec and then all other ticks will be on same level or even smaller if you lose some temp buff... so bullkatos is absolutly useless on high levels. its just ring for catch fun on low torments when you running with perma ac and all dies around. on high torments bulkatos only add about 2m/tick and its nothing not only for elites but even for white mobs. and it can be clearly seen in mannercoockie videos and streams...

Your logic/reasoning is flawed, it can't bring down your tick damage (which is what I think you're trying to say but honestly its hard to tell). If it's useful only for low torment then why does mannercookie use it and recommend it for those that can survive without a unity set up? It isn't for gibbing it adds to the DoT. There isn't a max tick which is may also be what you're talking about, it all just compounds together in a giant glob of damage, it doesn't overwrite others, only adds onto it, builds it.

Hope that was your point, otherwise I don't have a clue.

So if you do 100 damage and you have 100% fire damage you do 200 damage. Adding a piece of gear that adds 20% more fire dmg increases you damage by 10% by that point.

Strictly speaking theres "diminishing returns" after the first piece of elemental gear you put on :p As for pretty much EVERY stat in the game.

so in what second of that video we can see 100m ticks?

p.s. and why you forget to mention that dot stacking only 3sec? so for example with bulkatos you willhave max ticks after 3sec and then all other ticks will be on same level or even smaller if you lose some temp buff... so bullkatos is absolutly useless on high levels. its just ring for catch fun on low torments when you running with perma ac and all dies around. on high torments bulkatos only add about 2m/tick and its nothing not only for elites but even for white mobs. and it can be clearly seen in mannercoockie videos and streams...

Your logic/reasoning is flawed, it can't bring down your tick damage (which is what I think you're trying to say but honestly its hard to tell). If it's useful only for low torment then why does mannercookie use it and recommend it for those that can survive without a unity set up? It isn't for gibbing it adds to the DoT. There isn't a max tick which is may also be what you're talking about, it all just compounds together in a giant glob of damage, it doesn't overwrite others, only adds onto it, builds it.

Hope that was your point, otherwise I don't have a clue.

What he meant is that new DoT 'tick' is not refreshing the old ones. If you have 5 ticks running on a mob, and after 2 seconds you get one from Bul Khatos, your damage won't be a sum of 6 ticks for another 3 seconds. 'Old' 5 ticks will run their course and only Bul Khatos one will stay on a mob. It's different from Wizards Conflagerate in that matter.

So if you do 100 damage and you have 100% fire damage you do 200 damage. Adding a piece of gear that adds 20% more fire dmg increases you damage by 10% by that point.

Strictly speaking theres "diminishing returns" after the first piece of elemental gear you put on :p As for pretty much EVERY stat in the game.

Can you elaborate? Has this been proven?

Elemental damage stacks additively. This is 'common' knowledge.

Try the FAQ thread in main forums, it explain it quite well.

I mean, its the same with your primary stat. Each point increases your damage by 1%.

So let us take this very basic example so we can use round numbers. You have a weapon that deals 100 fire damage per swing. You put on an amulet with 100 str and no other stats. You now do 200 fire damage per swing (100 base, 100% multiplier)

With me so far?

You then put on a ring that gives you 100 more strength. That increases your damage by another 100%, right? But lets look at the actual numbers.You now deal 300 damage (100 base, 200% modifier). However 300 damage is 50% more than 200 damage. So that aditional 100 strength increased your actual damage by 50%, despite it on paper giving you 100% more damage (100 str)

Same goes for most of the other stats (except for crit that works differently, as you can't have a crit rate above 100%, possibly others).

So you now put on a ring that gives 100% Fire damage (OP). You now deal 600 damage (100 base, 200% modifier from str = 300 dmg, 100% modifer from elemental = 600). Follow?

Then you get mage fists. Increases fire damage by 20%, well you do fire damage, thats gonna increase your damage by 20%, right? No.

100 base, 200str modifier = 300 dmg, 120% fire dmg modifier = 660 damage. An increase of 60 from before, or 10%.

I know this might have rambled a bit but hopefully it illustrates that nearly EVERY damage stat diminishes as you acquire more of it. OF course, the imbalance comes in that items can have more of some stats than others; therefore some stats are still more valuable even after you've stacked up tonnes of it For high damage, try to dip into a little bit of every source (elite, elemental, IAS, %dmg) without stacking one too high at the expense of others. Even though IAS is kinda shit nearly all the time, if you have 1 bit of it on 1 piece of gear it will be a flat 7% increase in damage; where even a high roll of something else may not be as effective.

I mean, its the same with your primary stat. Each point increases your damage by 1%.

So let us take this very basic example so we can use round numbers. You have a weapon that deals 100 fire damage per swing. You put on an amulet with 100 str and no other stats. You now do 200 fire damage per swing (100 base, 100% multiplier)

With me so far?

You then put on a ring that gives you 100 more strength. That increases your damage by another 100%, right? But lets look at the actual numbers.You now deal 300 damage (100 base, 200% modifier). However 300 damage is 50% more than 200 damage. So that aditional 100 strength increased your actual damage by 50%, despite it on paper giving you 100% more damage (100 str)

Same goes for most of the other stats (except for crit that works differently, as you can't have a crit rate above 100%, possibly others).

So you now put on a ring that gives 100% Fire damage (OP). You now deal 600 damage (100 base, 200% modifier from str = 300 dmg, 100% modifer from elemental = 600). Follow?

Then you get mage fists. Increases fire damage by 20%, well you do fire damage, thats gonna increase your damage by 20%, right? No.

100 base, 200str modifier = 300 dmg, 120% fire dmg modifier = 660 damage. An increase of 60 from before, or 10%.

I know this might have rambled a bit but hopefully it illustrates that nearly EVERY damage stat diminishes as you acquire more of it. OF course, the imbalance comes in that items can have more of some stats than others; therefore some stats are still more valuable even after you've stacked up tonnes of it For high damage, try to dip into a little bit of every source (elite, elemental, IAS, %dmg) without stacking one too high at the expense of others. Even though IAS is kinda shit nearly all the time, if you have 1 bit of it on 1 piece of gear it will be a flat 7% increase in damage; where even a high roll of something else may not be as effective.

1. I think Bul Kathos band actually ticks twice per second, so while firestarter is up it "should" add x2 hits per second??? But its range is very limited and I agree there are better options.

2. Bunterr you mentioned that you weren't sure why firestarter was reputed to be so good by people. It's because that 1.5 whirlwinds worth of damage you mentioned is added to -everything-. So eg a consecrate-shattered ground goes from 155% weapon damage per tick to 620% per tick for 10 seconds (155+465). and other spells that have damage over time type effects also add in. So EG those 5 ticks a single fist of the heavens leaves behind goes from 500% weapon damage over 5s to 2825%, at least as far as I understand the mechanic.

Soooo yeah... firestarter is quite crazy tbh.... it makes some mundane spells into the power of 1minute cooldown spells.....

Bunterr, this would prove that in this case it is multiplicative of it's approach, and yes, a limit would exist of a geometric series. Your statement proves that the game is doing a multiplicative approach rather than a flat additive approach.

Here's how it works:

Just so you know: paragon -- 10% CDR would mean that 90% of the cooldown is left right?

Helm -- if 12.5% is given, that means 87.5% is remaining

8% from each ring would be at 92% remaining from each one

90% * 12.5% *92%*92% (or 0.90*0.875*0.92*0.92) = 66.7% remaining CD or (100-66.7) = 33.3% reduction.

Sorry, but discounts would behave in this fashion are logical to do so and lot of these geometric functions would reduce in this manner.

However, growth and decay behave quite differently when dealing with %s. Decay will rapidly reach a limit. And this makes sense, there is no way CDR could ever reach 100% as that would mean all cooldowns would be gone. A CDR of over 100% would have no reasonable outcome at all based on the context of the situation.

A growth would be exponential. And if elemental damage behaves the same way that the CDR example you just provided, the +elemental damage willbe vastly more powerful than the example that I listed earlier.

20% Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat + 20% Amulet + 20% Ring1+20% Ring 2 + 20% Bracer = 330% if multiplicative with +35% half of the time = 330% (half) + 446% (half) = average of 389% more damage.

While 20% Ring1 + 20% Ring 2 + 20% Amulet + 20% Bracer +35% Champion = 279% all the time with 6 piece bonus. Probably a better setup to find a ring with +20% than a RRoG to wear a Cindercoat (only 10%)

So unless the DoT effect from Firestarter = approximately 110% of your current damage (calculating based on your weapon), it would be more wise to run an elemental build compared to a 6 piece build.

Let's say you run a 1,000,000 damage build with a 2800 DPS 2 hander. 2800*460%/3 = 4300 fire damage per stack per second. How many stacks of the DoT can you effectively apply to a mob before it dies? How quickly can you stack the DoT? You would have to hit a monster multiple times per second for this to match up. And if you are using a 2h, it is unlikely that you will get more than 3 applications running at a time (4300*3 = dot damage of 13k) which will be nowhere near the 110% damage required to make it more damage.

"2. Bunterr you mentioned that you weren't sure why firestarter was reputed to be so good by people. It's because that 1.5 whirlwinds worth of damage you mentioned is added to -everything-. So eg a consecrate-shattered ground goes from 155% weapon damage per tick to 620% per tick for 10 seconds (155+465). and other spells that have damage over time type effects also add in. So EG those 5 ticks a single fist of the heavens leaves behind goes from 500% weapon damage over 5s to 2825%, at least as far as I understand the mechanic."

Justusy -- it would not make sense to behave in this way.

The description of Firestarter states that it will add a dot of 465% weapon damage over 3 seconds to any enemy that takes damage from you. Consecration would hit for it's damage, and then a DoT would be applied separately based on it's description. It sounds like another hit would be given. Based on everything that I've been reading it would hit for 155% and then apply a 465% DoT for 3 seconds.

Bunterr, this would prove that in this case it is multiplicative of it's approach, and yes, a limit would exist of a geometric series. Your statement proves that the game is doing a multiplicative approach rather than a flat additive approach.

OK, I'm gonna be honest, that's as far as I read. I do understand how multiplicative bonuses work. However, that does not refute the fact that CDR is affected by diminishing returns.

I don't mean to be a dick right now, but I just got done talking with the police so I'm not in a particularly good mood.

I would've read the rest of your reply, but I assume it isn't entirely directed towards me and, if anything, other people might benefit from the explanation.

Sorry to hear that. Basically the TLDR version is things that reduce items (like CDR) would diminish, while things that increase by a % would be the best in the end.

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Edit: Here is the link to MC's Darklight video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeK7OmJUiUc

p.s. and why you forget to mention that dot stacking only 3sec? so for example with bulkatos you willhave max ticks after 3sec and then all other ticks will be on same level or even smaller if you lose some temp buff... so bullkatos is absolutly useless on high levels. its just ring for catch fun on low torments when you running with perma ac and all dies around. on high torments bulkatos only add about 2m/tick and its nothing not only for elites but even for white mobs. and it can be clearly seen in mannercoockie videos and streams...

How are the +% damage affixes calculated? Are the %'s additive or multiplicative?

Say you deal a straight 100 damage:

Say 20% from Magefist, 20% bracer, 20% Stone of Jordan = 60% increased damage to the damage? So this would be 160 damage done

Or is it 20% from Magefist = 120 + 20% from Stone of Jordan = 144 +20% bracer = 173?

Not familiar enough with the formula to determine what the sequence should be.

But I would assume if the elemental damage > a flat 35%, that the elemental damage would be preferred correct? How is the DOT calculated from Firestarter?

So if you do 100 damage and you have 100% fire damage you do 200 damage. Adding a piece of gear that adds 20% more fire dmg increases you damage by 10% by that point.

Strictly speaking theres "diminishing returns" after the first piece of elemental gear you put on :p As for pretty much EVERY stat in the game.

Meaning if you have 100 damage and 100% damage + Akhan's Champion (35%) would only be 235.

For example:

20% from Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat would be +50% damage all of the time (+85% half of the time +50% the other half, maybe more if you have CDR), compared to +35% all the time.

Let's assume that if both gear sets are +20% fire damage from both rings and amulet and bracers (+80%) and we are doing a straight 100 damage.

The first case would be +165% fire damage during Champion, and +130% without (approximately half of the time). So 265 + 230 would be an average of 248 damage over all the time.

The second case with perma Champion would be +115% or 215 damage all the time. How much damage does the DOT do? If it would not be equivalent of 33% of your damage, I see the +fire coming out ahead. Even if the Champion is multiplicative, I see the +fire damage coming out ahead. The notes say 460% of your weapon damage over 3 seconds.

Ugh, this is turning out to be too many variables for me to think about right now.

Hope that was your point, otherwise I don't have a clue.

Elemental damage stacks additively. This is 'common' knowledge.

Try the FAQ thread in main forums, it explain it quite well.

I mean, its the same with your primary stat. Each point increases your damage by 1%.

So let us take this very basic example so we can use round numbers. You have a weapon that deals 100 fire damage per swing. You put on an amulet with 100 str and no other stats. You now do 200 fire damage per swing (100 base, 100% multiplier)

With me so far?

You then put on a ring that gives you 100 more strength. That increases your damage by another 100%, right? But lets look at the actual numbers.You now deal 300 damage (100 base, 200% modifier). However 300 damage is 50% more than 200 damage. So that aditional 100 strength increased your actual damage by 50%, despite it on paper giving you 100% more damage (100 str)

Same goes for most of the other stats (except for crit that works differently, as you can't have a crit rate above 100%, possibly others).

So you now put on a ring that gives 100% Fire damage (OP). You now deal 600 damage (100 base, 200% modifier from str = 300 dmg, 100% modifer from elemental = 600). Follow?

Then you get mage fists. Increases fire damage by 20%, well you do fire damage, thats gonna increase your damage by 20%, right? No.

100 base, 200str modifier = 300 dmg, 120% fire dmg modifier = 660 damage. An increase of 60 from before, or 10%.

I know this might have rambled a bit but hopefully it illustrates that nearly EVERY damage stat diminishes as you acquire more of it. OF course, the imbalance comes in that items can have more of some stats than others; therefore some stats are still more valuable even after you've stacked up tonnes of it For high damage, try to dip into a little bit of every source (elite, elemental, IAS, %dmg) without stacking one too high at the expense of others. Even though IAS is kinda shit nearly all the time, if you have 1 bit of it on 1 piece of gear it will be a flat 7% increase in damage; where even a high roll of something else may not be as effective.

1. I think Bul Kathos band actually ticks twice per second, so while firestarter is up it "should" add x2 hits per second??? But its range is very limited and I agree there are better options.

2. Bunterr you mentioned that you weren't sure why firestarter was reputed to be so good by people. It's because that 1.5 whirlwinds worth of damage you mentioned is added to -everything-. So eg a consecrate-shattered ground goes from 155% weapon damage per tick to 620% per tick for 10 seconds (155+465). and other spells that have damage over time type effects also add in. So EG those 5 ticks a single fist of the heavens leaves behind goes from 500% weapon damage over 5s to 2825%, at least as far as I understand the mechanic.

Soooo yeah... firestarter is quite crazy tbh.... it makes some mundane spells into the power of 1minute cooldown spells.....

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10878787903#7

Here's how it works:

Just so you know: paragon -- 10% CDR would mean that 90% of the cooldown is left right?

Helm -- if 12.5% is given, that means 87.5% is remaining

8% from each ring would be at 92% remaining from each one

90% * 12.5% *92%*92% (or 0.90*0.875*0.92*0.92) = 66.7% remaining CD or (100-66.7) = 33.3% reduction.

Sorry, but discounts would behave in this fashion are logical to do so and lot of these geometric functions would reduce in this manner.

However, growth and decay behave quite differently when dealing with %s. Decay will rapidly reach a limit. And this makes sense, there is no way CDR could ever reach 100% as that would mean all cooldowns would be gone. A CDR of over 100% would have no reasonable outcome at all based on the context of the situation.

A growth would be exponential. And if elemental damage behaves the same way that the CDR example you just provided, the +elemental damage willbe vastly more powerful than the example that I listed earlier.

20% Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat + 20% Amulet + 20% Ring1+20% Ring 2 + 20% Bracer = 330% if multiplicative with +35% half of the time = 330% (half) + 446% (half) = average of 389% more damage.

While 20% Ring1 + 20% Ring 2 + 20% Amulet + 20% Bracer +35% Champion = 279% all the time with 6 piece bonus. Probably a better setup to find a ring with +20% than a RRoG to wear a Cindercoat (only 10%)

So unless the DoT effect from Firestarter = approximately 110% of your current damage (calculating based on your weapon), it would be more wise to run an elemental build compared to a 6 piece build.

Let's say you run a 1,000,000 damage build with a 2800 DPS 2 hander. 2800*460%/3 = 4300 fire damage per stack per second. How many stacks of the DoT can you effectively apply to a mob before it dies? How quickly can you stack the DoT? You would have to hit a monster multiple times per second for this to match up. And if you are using a 2h, it is unlikely that you will get more than 3 applications running at a time (4300*3 = dot damage of 13k) which will be nowhere near the 110% damage required to make it more damage.

"2. Bunterr you mentioned that you weren't sure why firestarter was reputed to be so good by people. It's because that 1.5 whirlwinds worth of damage you mentioned is added to -everything-. So eg a consecrate-shattered ground goes from 155% weapon damage per tick to 620% per tick for 10 seconds (155+465). and other spells that have damage over time type effects also add in. So EG those 5 ticks a single fist of the heavens leaves behind goes from 500% weapon damage over 5s to 2825%, at least as far as I understand the mechanic."

Justusy -- it would not make sense to behave in this way.

The description of Firestarter states that it will add a dot of 465% weapon damage over 3 seconds to any enemy that takes damage from you. Consecration would hit for it's damage, and then a DoT would be applied separately based on it's description. It sounds like another hit would be given. Based on everything that I've been reading it would hit for 155% and then apply a 465% DoT for 3 seconds.