2 Handers are super disproportional to one handers on the crusader. This is what makes it a must have.
It's no fun, because it restricts build diversity by saying 2 handers are blatantly better than one handers, but in order to use a 2 hander, you won't be able to keep up with your friends in a coop game.
It's counter-intuitive to multiplayer. No passives should GIVE you a penalty, getting penalties isn't fun -- using a passive to NEGATE a penalty is fun, this then makes the passive an option.
So how do we fix Heavenly Strength? It's very simple actually -- we make it a bonus instead of a boon. How do we go about doing this? We make it so Crusaders can wield 2 handers and a shield without the passive. Without the passive, we can have a movement speed penalty.
So what should heavenly strength do then? Well, first of all, it has to narrow the gap between 2 handers and one handers to enable 1 handers to still be a viable choice.
The new Heavenly Strength should read like so;
Heavenly Strength:
1 Handed - 18% increased damage
2 Handed - Removes the movement speed penalty
Crusader has no damage passives outside of Holy Cause. Holy Cause, while being an interesting passive, is very specific -- not only is it very specific, but it's damage buff isn't calculated the same as any other damage buff in the game, in terms of passives.
The key here is, all the other passives take your sheet DPS and multiply it by x%. Holy cause takes your weapons holy damage roll and multiplies that by 10%. Giving a much smaller buff than all other classes, this is to be expected though, since the crusaders buff is using 2 handers in 1 hand, but what about 1 handed crusaders? They have no effective DPS buff that is comparable to any other classes, nor can even come close to closing the gap between 1 hand and 2 hand weapons.
So doing this accomplishes a couple of goals...
It makes playing with a 2 hand fun, so we can finally keep up with the people we're playing with. It also makes using 1 handed weapons viable in terms of competitive damage, even at 18% you'd still be doing less than you do with a 2 hander, but the gap would close up nicely, the attack speed and increased wrath generation should make it viable for using high cost no CD wrath spenders. While 2 handers would focus on high damage CD skills because of poor wrath generation. Higher % weapon damage skills scale better with 2 handers too, giving the crusader an extreme variety in build diversity.
It also makes heavenly strength an optional passive. If you want high damage, but don't want to use it, you can stack a 4th defensive passive without sacking your damage, instead -- you're capping yourself at 10% movespeed. This would be ideal for trying to chug through higher torment levels, or doing uber runs etc.
Also doing this, doesn't require you to redesign "The Hell Skull" shield that allows you to move at full speed with a 2 hander. That shield now frees up a passive for you, allowing you to alter your build [build changing legendary] it actually becomes a viable shield, whereas right now -- it's useless, since you'd definitely be better off with Akarat's Awakening.
Redesigning this passive to function in this way, essentially out right fixes the crusader in terms of design and diversity. He still needs some number tweaks, some looking into CD reductions and another look at some passives like Finery.
I think Finery should also add a 2.7% damage reduction for each gem that's socketed. You can have 11 sockets. 2.7*11=29.7% damage reduction. Most people will probably rock around 7 gems giving you 18.9% DR.
Having sockets in ammy's and rings sacrifices too much damage, even having a socket in the helm causes you to suffer damage or toughness. So I think this is also a fair way to get some DR back... since the Crusader doesn't have that 30% built in baseline.
Bonus and boon are synonymous. I realize this is a waste of a post but just FYI so you can edit and make your post more convincing.
Also, to above. It is not reasonably arguable that Heavenly Strength is the best damage passive in the game. The same counter-argument to what you're saying can be applied to the lack of 30% DR for melee classes. I'll touch on that after explaining what I mean.
Yes, Heavenly Str allows for probably a more significant damage boost in a single passive than any other single passive for any class - kind of. Going from a 1her to a 2her is a big damage boost, for sure. But in reality the passive is more allowing the Crusader to use a SHIELD with a 2her than a 2her with a shield, if that makes sense. While some abilities do require a shield - most do not. In the way a Barbarian uses a 2her, a Crusader could use a 2her and get the vast majority of the damage without the shield in the offhand. Assuming that you don't want to pay a Crusader without a shield, or adding in that Shields are still valuable for damage (albeit less than any other type of offhand), lets ignore the possibility of using no shield. So you're using Heavenly Str to do all this extra damage. Only still, what you're really using Heavenly Str to do is bring you (almost) up to par with other classes' default choices. The general consensus is that 1h/OH or DW is better than 2h for every other class and almost every build. This is because the 15% AS from DW and the great stats and effects from OH items. Crusaders don't get this option. Without Heavenly STR, a Crusader is like another class with a shield - a much much lower damage equipment choice. With Heavenly STR you get to use a 2h (the worse option for everyone else) plus a shield (which is less good than anyone elses offhand) at the cost of a passive and movement speed. The bonus you get to damage for using the shield is marginal compared to other classes' offhands. I know they give survivability but we're talking about damage here. So you have to spend a passive and suffer mobility issues to get ALMOST on par with the standard choices of the other classes - !h/OH or DW (obviously we're better off than 2h from other classes). So yeah its a MASSIVE bonus to Crusaders, but one that starts from an awful position to get to an okay one - its not a bonus, its just making up for the shitty position Crusaders start in with regards to weapon options.
The way this can be applied to the DR issue is that shields in general play much the same role as Heavenly Str when it comes to defensiveness. The most significant argument for no 30% dmg reduction for the Crusader is that they are a shield class - they dont need the 30% because they are always using a shield (other arguments like the Cru can be a ranged caster are less effective because thats only a single playstyle and a less common choice - the DH can be a melee brawler, too (Grenades, caltrops, traps). So by saying that the Crusader is on par with other melee without the 30%, because of the shield, you're saying that the Crusader - which is described by Blizzard as a tough tanky brawlery dude or something - is actually the most limited in survivability of all classes. Very few people use shields on anything but a Crusader (ignoring HC for the moment). That means Wizards/DH/WD can all put on a shield and be about as tough as a Crusader. But it allows Barbs and Monks to put on a shield and go above the standard level of toughness and become tougher than a Crusader has the possibility to be. The fact that the Cru is a shield-centric class should be a unique benefit to the class, not something that allows it to be nerfed in another area to make you feel like theres no benefit to it.
This is an awfully formatted wall of text - I apologize.
Thats why I said reasonably. Do you know what that means? Anything is arguable. I can argue that humans can fly unaided by anything but their own bodies. It wouldn't be reasonable though.
you don't realize the reason you can't keep up in a multiplayer game is because you lack movement skills not because of heavenly strength penalty right? It must be the case since heavenly strength is currently bugged and doesn't reduce your movements speed.
you don't realize the reason you can't keep up in a multiplayer game is because you lack movement skills not because of heavenly strength penalty right? It must be the case since heavenly strength is currently bugged and doesn't reduce your movements speed.
The only place that the speed isnt reduced is in town,everywhere else you cap at 10%.
Carrying a 2hand+shield is ridiculous, even for a crusader. The fact that our shields gives a considerable DPS boost, you have to have some kind of debuff on the passive. If you want to use heavenly strength and you don't have a Hellskull yet, until then reset those paragon points into movement speed or use steed. It's really not hard. This is the point of diablo, to maximize the potential of your character in any way possible. The new Paragon system supports that philosophy very IMO.
edit: I forgot it reduces you maximum speed, so I guess paragon points still would not work. you Could still use steed thouand and stack CDR. Either be faster or do more damage... Unless Hellskull drops
in reality the passive is more allowing the Crusader to use a SHIELD with a 2her than a 2her with a shield, if that makes sense.
Without really looking at numbers, I feel that this is really what it's all about. It makes using a 2H as a Crusader viable even without the 30% DR of other melee classes, because a shield provides similar benefits.
As for the movement speed penalty.. I'm a bit torn about it. At first thought it seems logical that there should be some kind of penalty for being able to use a 2H and a shield at the same time. But when looking at the movement speed... I don't really feel like it's a penalty in terms of game stats - like sheet DPS or toughness - but more a lack of convenience on the player's part. Basically saying "Hey, it's now super annoying to play your class, but you do get to use 2H's" The reason? Movement speed doesn't feel like a competitive stat. What I mean by that is, we tend to measure our toon's progression by the DPS, toughness, height of Difficulty that we can survive in, and so on. But movement speed is not a factor in that. It doesn't make you better or worse than others in a certain department. Of course, you could argue that more movement speed makes you kill things faster as you reach them sooner, but with picking up items in between, maybe standing still for a chat or porting back to town, this seems very nitpicky unless you're focussed on speedruns, which I dare say is a minority anyway. The movement speed penalty doesn't rebalance the class compared to other classes. Instead, it's mostly a huge PITA for the player individually because everything feels very slow.
This became noticable to me today - at first I didn't really mind the 10% cap on Movement speed. It didn't feel that slow to me, to be honest. Until I swapped to another character that did have the MS increase all the way up to 25%. It just felt so much nicer playing that specific character, even if they had way lower stats than my Crusader (currently my 2nd best character in terms of DPS/Toughness).
I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand the urge to want to penalize a toon for being able to use a 2H and a shield. I'm just not sure movement speed is the way to go, because it's not a competitive but a convenience stat.
While i do understand that all other classes may have better offhands, that's because they are meant to do a bit more damage than crusaders. Crusaders do have supporting passive a that help our block chance along to some extent. I strongly believe that if I found the right 1hand with enough DPS to support it (2400+) i would definitely consider replacing heavenly strength with something else to make up for the damage ( the one that gives increased damage depending on how may gems you have socketed) gave me a pretty huge boost when I got my legs chest and weapon socketed. There are alternatives for the Crusader, just not ones that upfront like heavenly strengrh. For someone just starting to gear the class, it's always going to be the foot passive because it's the easiest to get your sheet DPS up and go 'look at my damage'! YAY
Mmmm, personally I eyeball the 2,400DPS 1H and the 2,600DPS 2H, and wonder just how much bonus I need from Finery to make up the difference. By my math that is less than ten percent base DPS difference between the two -- and doesn't count that I am looking at 1.15 vs 1.4 attacks, which means faster wrath gen, which means more spamming lasers or other "wrath only" spenders to hurt things.
I would honestly bet that a reasonably built 1H crusader and 2H crusader would be about equal, once you factor in all the non-sheet DPS bits and pieces. Probably play very differently, but that isn't such a thing.
Why are people talking about 2400 DPS 1Hers and 2600 DPS 2Hers?
Surely its more like 2200 and 2800? My 2Her has 3116 DPS on it and its not even perfectly rolled by a long shot (and has socket ofc)
Gonna need a mint 1Her to even compete with that.
My solution to this HS farce would be to nerf damage by 15% then buff it across the board for crusaders, so the two weapon types do the same damage, it just leaves the player the choice between 1Her and shield or 2Her and shield, whichever they prefer. Not this current "Use a 2Her and shield or gimp thyself" style.
Mmmm, personally I eyeball the 2,400DPS 1H and the 2,600DPS 2H, and wonder just how much bonus I need from Finery to make up the difference. By my math that is less than ten percent base DPS difference between the two -- and doesn't count that I am looking at 1.15 vs 1.4 attacks, which means faster wrath gen, which means more spamming lasers or other "wrath only" spenders to hurt things.
I would honestly bet that a reasonably built 1H crusader and 2H crusader would be about equal, once you factor in all the non-sheet DPS bits and pieces. Probably play very differently, but that isn't such a thing.
This is what I am talking about. I haven't done the math either, I am currently at work. I really think it boils down to your build choice.
Heavenly Strength:
1 Handed - 18% increased damage
2 Handed - Removes the movement speed penalty
it actually becomes a viable shield, whereas right now -- it's useless, since you'd definitely be better off with Akarat's Awakening.
You just made a must have passive and told us on top totally bullshit. Hellskull is not viable right now? I see...
Holy christ, I tried to read your second comment. I can't even grasp on what you are trying to say, get your shit together and stop playing Crusader if you feel so bad doing so.
Edit:
I actually read through all this bs. You REALLY are saying that a barb equipping a shield has MORE survivabilty, just by equipping that shield, than a crusader? Can you list me please any skill, besides that goddamn terrible passive, a barbarian has which does SOMETHING with the shield?! (when we look at numbers and calculate for a blockchance of a good shield with 30%, this means all this barbarian got from equipping that shield is a lousy mitigation mechanic allowing him to block ~5k dmg of 30% of all the hits made against him)
Can you please confirm that you actually think this makes a barbarian superior defensivewise compared to a crusader having a shield?
Barb- Tough as Nails, 25% extra armor. From shield as well. 600 extra armor on good shield. Also, generate 6 rage per blocked attack. Granted, its not too much of a bonus, but thats still 25% extra armor from the shield.
Crusader- more procs here. 30% increased block chance with 4 enemies. Armor increased by block chance. No dodge, but 15% increased block chance. Block chance increase by 1.5% second until you block. Not to mention many abilities that increases block chance/amount. So, yea, if a barb equips a shield, he gains very little benefit. OPs point that if a crusader does NOT have a shield on, he becomes a squishy mofo.
OPs point is that there really is only ONE weapon style viable to crusaders, it REQUIRES a passive slot, and makes you move 10% slower. That would be like requiring a passive to use sources/mojos on Wiz/WD, but you have 10% longer CDs on your abilities, or a barb/monk requires a passive to dual wield but you take 10% extra damage from attacks while dual-wielding. If you want to do max damage, you take that perk, simple as that.
In addition, Crusaders are balanced 100% around having a shield. Besides the fact that if you DON'T have a shield you can't use ability, you also A) take significantly more damage then a crusader without a shield (At LEAST 3x, if not signficantly more), do less damage then a crusader without a shield (Less strength+other stats), C) can't use 4 of the 18 available passives to crusaders. Only BAD Crusaders DON'T take Heavenly Strength. ONLY bad crusaders use anything BUT a 2 handed weapon+shield.
So yea. Crusaders are pretty much stuck to one weapon style- 2 handed+shield. In addition, they move 10% slower then everyone else. That is what the current Heavenly Strength is. OPs suggestion is a very good one, but let me add- If you equip a 2 handed weapon without a shield, you gain 30% increased armor, regenerate 1% life/sec, and move 5% faster. Thus, you can go without a shield- you will do less damage, and be less tanky due to no block chance, but you don't get gibbed cuz no shield, and as an added benefit you move faster then ppl with a shield.
I agree with OP. To give you poweful ability, but that makes you to stay away from coop games is just stupid. I believe this passive should work like "You can use 2h but overall damage is reduced by 10%", and I believe it will be changed that way soon. So you will need to actually think is it worth picking - from "must have" it will become "i need to consider".
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Heavenly Strength Caps your movespeed to 10%.
2 Handers are super disproportional to one handers on the crusader. This is what makes it a must have.
It's no fun, because it restricts build diversity by saying 2 handers are blatantly better than one handers, but in order to use a 2 hander, you won't be able to keep up with your friends in a coop game.
It's counter-intuitive to multiplayer. No passives should GIVE you a penalty, getting penalties isn't fun -- using a passive to NEGATE a penalty is fun, this then makes the passive an option.
So how do we fix Heavenly Strength? It's very simple actually -- we make it a bonus instead of a boon. How do we go about doing this? We make it so Crusaders can wield 2 handers and a shield without the passive. Without the passive, we can have a movement speed penalty.
So what should heavenly strength do then? Well, first of all, it has to narrow the gap between 2 handers and one handers to enable 1 handers to still be a viable choice.
The new Heavenly Strength should read like so;
Crusader has no damage passives outside of Holy Cause. Holy Cause, while being an interesting passive, is very specific -- not only is it very specific, but it's damage buff isn't calculated the same as any other damage buff in the game, in terms of passives.
Archery = % damage
Glass canon = % damage
Weapon Mastery = % damage
Holy Cause = % holy WEAPON DAMAGE
The key here is, all the other passives take your sheet DPS and multiply it by x%. Holy cause takes your weapons holy damage roll and multiplies that by 10%. Giving a much smaller buff than all other classes, this is to be expected though, since the crusaders buff is using 2 handers in 1 hand, but what about 1 handed crusaders? They have no effective DPS buff that is comparable to any other classes, nor can even come close to closing the gap between 1 hand and 2 hand weapons.
So doing this accomplishes a couple of goals...
It makes playing with a 2 hand fun, so we can finally keep up with the people we're playing with. It also makes using 1 handed weapons viable in terms of competitive damage, even at 18% you'd still be doing less than you do with a 2 hander, but the gap would close up nicely, the attack speed and increased wrath generation should make it viable for using high cost no CD wrath spenders. While 2 handers would focus on high damage CD skills because of poor wrath generation. Higher % weapon damage skills scale better with 2 handers too, giving the crusader an extreme variety in build diversity.
It also makes heavenly strength an optional passive. If you want high damage, but don't want to use it, you can stack a 4th defensive passive without sacking your damage, instead -- you're capping yourself at 10% movespeed. This would be ideal for trying to chug through higher torment levels, or doing uber runs etc.
Also doing this, doesn't require you to redesign "The Hell Skull" shield that allows you to move at full speed with a 2 hander. That shield now frees up a passive for you, allowing you to alter your build [build changing legendary] it actually becomes a viable shield, whereas right now -- it's useless, since you'd definitely be better off with Akarat's Awakening.
Redesigning this passive to function in this way, essentially out right fixes the crusader in terms of design and diversity. He still needs some number tweaks, some looking into CD reductions and another look at some passives like Finery.
I think Finery should also add a 2.7% damage reduction for each gem that's socketed. You can have 11 sockets. 2.7*11=29.7% damage reduction. Most people will probably rock around 7 gems giving you 18.9% DR.
Having sockets in ammy's and rings sacrifices too much damage, even having a socket in the helm causes you to suffer damage or toughness. So I think this is also a fair way to get some DR back... since the Crusader doesn't have that 30% built in baseline.
Also, to above. It is not reasonably arguable that Heavenly Strength is the best damage passive in the game. The same counter-argument to what you're saying can be applied to the lack of 30% DR for melee classes. I'll touch on that after explaining what I mean.
Yes, Heavenly Str allows for probably a more significant damage boost in a single passive than any other single passive for any class - kind of. Going from a 1her to a 2her is a big damage boost, for sure. But in reality the passive is more allowing the Crusader to use a SHIELD with a 2her than a 2her with a shield, if that makes sense. While some abilities do require a shield - most do not. In the way a Barbarian uses a 2her, a Crusader could use a 2her and get the vast majority of the damage without the shield in the offhand. Assuming that you don't want to pay a Crusader without a shield, or adding in that Shields are still valuable for damage (albeit less than any other type of offhand), lets ignore the possibility of using no shield. So you're using Heavenly Str to do all this extra damage. Only still, what you're really using Heavenly Str to do is bring you (almost) up to par with other classes' default choices. The general consensus is that 1h/OH or DW is better than 2h for every other class and almost every build. This is because the 15% AS from DW and the great stats and effects from OH items. Crusaders don't get this option. Without Heavenly STR, a Crusader is like another class with a shield - a much much lower damage equipment choice. With Heavenly STR you get to use a 2h (the worse option for everyone else) plus a shield (which is less good than anyone elses offhand) at the cost of a passive and movement speed. The bonus you get to damage for using the shield is marginal compared to other classes' offhands. I know they give survivability but we're talking about damage here. So you have to spend a passive and suffer mobility issues to get ALMOST on par with the standard choices of the other classes - !h/OH or DW (obviously we're better off than 2h from other classes). So yeah its a MASSIVE bonus to Crusaders, but one that starts from an awful position to get to an okay one - its not a bonus, its just making up for the shitty position Crusaders start in with regards to weapon options.
The way this can be applied to the DR issue is that shields in general play much the same role as Heavenly Str when it comes to defensiveness. The most significant argument for no 30% dmg reduction for the Crusader is that they are a shield class - they dont need the 30% because they are always using a shield (other arguments like the Cru can be a ranged caster are less effective because thats only a single playstyle and a less common choice - the DH can be a melee brawler, too (Grenades, caltrops, traps). So by saying that the Crusader is on par with other melee without the 30%, because of the shield, you're saying that the Crusader - which is described by Blizzard as a tough tanky brawlery dude or something - is actually the most limited in survivability of all classes. Very few people use shields on anything but a Crusader (ignoring HC for the moment). That means Wizards/DH/WD can all put on a shield and be about as tough as a Crusader. But it allows Barbs and Monks to put on a shield and go above the standard level of toughness and become tougher than a Crusader has the possibility to be. The fact that the Cru is a shield-centric class should be a unique benefit to the class, not something that allows it to be nerfed in another area to make you feel like theres no benefit to it.
This is an awfully formatted wall of text - I apologize.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Fordragon-2878/hero/9763301
edit: I forgot it reduces you maximum speed, so I guess paragon points still would not work. you Could still use steed thouand and stack CDR. Either be faster or do more damage... Unless Hellskull drops
As for the movement speed penalty.. I'm a bit torn about it. At first thought it seems logical that there should be some kind of penalty for being able to use a 2H and a shield at the same time. But when looking at the movement speed... I don't really feel like it's a penalty in terms of game stats - like sheet DPS or toughness - but more a lack of convenience on the player's part. Basically saying "Hey, it's now super annoying to play your class, but you do get to use 2H's" The reason? Movement speed doesn't feel like a competitive stat. What I mean by that is, we tend to measure our toon's progression by the DPS, toughness, height of Difficulty that we can survive in, and so on. But movement speed is not a factor in that. It doesn't make you better or worse than others in a certain department. Of course, you could argue that more movement speed makes you kill things faster as you reach them sooner, but with picking up items in between, maybe standing still for a chat or porting back to town, this seems very nitpicky unless you're focussed on speedruns, which I dare say is a minority anyway. The movement speed penalty doesn't rebalance the class compared to other classes. Instead, it's mostly a huge PITA for the player individually because everything feels very slow.
This became noticable to me today - at first I didn't really mind the 10% cap on Movement speed. It didn't feel that slow to me, to be honest. Until I swapped to another character that did have the MS increase all the way up to 25%. It just felt so much nicer playing that specific character, even if they had way lower stats than my Crusader (currently my 2nd best character in terms of DPS/Toughness).
I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand the urge to want to penalize a toon for being able to use a 2H and a shield. I'm just not sure movement speed is the way to go, because it's not a competitive but a convenience stat.
I would honestly bet that a reasonably built 1H crusader and 2H crusader would be about equal, once you factor in all the non-sheet DPS bits and pieces. Probably play very differently, but that isn't such a thing.
Surely its more like 2200 and 2800? My 2Her has 3116 DPS on it and its not even perfectly rolled by a long shot (and has socket ofc)
Gonna need a mint 1Her to even compete with that.
My solution to this HS farce would be to nerf damage by 15% then buff it across the board for crusaders, so the two weapon types do the same damage, it just leaves the player the choice between 1Her and shield or 2Her and shield, whichever they prefer. Not this current "Use a 2Her and shield or gimp thyself" style.
Barb- Tough as Nails, 25% extra armor. From shield as well. 600 extra armor on good shield. Also, generate 6 rage per blocked attack. Granted, its not too much of a bonus, but thats still 25% extra armor from the shield.
Crusader- more procs here. 30% increased block chance with 4 enemies. Armor increased by block chance. No dodge, but 15% increased block chance. Block chance increase by 1.5% second until you block. Not to mention many abilities that increases block chance/amount. So, yea, if a barb equips a shield, he gains very little benefit. OPs point that if a crusader does NOT have a shield on, he becomes a squishy mofo.
OPs point is that there really is only ONE weapon style viable to crusaders, it REQUIRES a passive slot, and makes you move 10% slower. That would be like requiring a passive to use sources/mojos on Wiz/WD, but you have 10% longer CDs on your abilities, or a barb/monk requires a passive to dual wield but you take 10% extra damage from attacks while dual-wielding. If you want to do max damage, you take that perk, simple as that.
In addition, Crusaders are balanced 100% around having a shield. Besides the fact that if you DON'T have a shield you can't use ability, you also A) take significantly more damage then a crusader without a shield (At LEAST 3x, if not signficantly more), do less damage then a crusader without a shield (Less strength+other stats), C) can't use 4 of the 18 available passives to crusaders. Only BAD Crusaders DON'T take Heavenly Strength. ONLY bad crusaders use anything BUT a 2 handed weapon+shield.
So yea. Crusaders are pretty much stuck to one weapon style- 2 handed+shield. In addition, they move 10% slower then everyone else. That is what the current Heavenly Strength is. OPs suggestion is a very good one, but let me add- If you equip a 2 handed weapon without a shield, you gain 30% increased armor, regenerate 1% life/sec, and move 5% faster. Thus, you can go without a shield- you will do less damage, and be less tanky due to no block chance, but you don't get gibbed cuz no shield, and as an added benefit you move faster then ppl with a shield.