Just my 2 cents, as I am not in the ROS beta. What I see from the weapons, it appears to me that the Crusader's one-handed flail legendaries will be the new insta-brimstone unless the Blizzard team gives it a whole lot of lovin'.
Given the stats of shields and crusader shields don't add damage (unlike WD and Wizard off-hands), it is hard to justify a 1H when using heavenly strength + 2H is so much more powerful. An example of what would narrow the gap would be the ability to roll 2 gem sockets (like skywarden) on 1H flails or other crusader affixes that strengthen it beyond what you would get in the rest of the weapons that dropped (I am thinking of the thorn axe).
Another solution would be to allow heavenly strength to give 1H weapons some advantage much like the barbarian's passive weapon mastery: Perhaps wrath on hit or increase in crit hit %. I am not involved to know what would make 1 handed flails viable, but I do see that this combo is undertuned and therefore few will use it for a comparable 2H weapon. The problem seems to be masked by most (all?) of the level 70 crusaders using heavenly strength.
edit: inserted the word "don't" in para 2, sentence 1
I'm still a nub when it comes to crusader passives, so if there ARE passives that make 1h'ers viable compared to two handers, then yea I apologize.
But as it stands I completely agree. The addition of the 4th passive slot only compounds the issue; Unless you're going for a VERY specific build, the only downside is the movement speed penalty when taking Heavenly Strength. Why on Earth would you NOT want to take that and increase your dps?
There needs to be another passive ( I vote to not roll it into heavenly strength and instead use a different one / make a new one) that gets 1 handers close, to within a few %, of using a 2 hander and a shield. The choice seems obvious; Double your stats on your weapon and use a shield, or use a 1 hander and a shield, bleh.
You seem to forget that you are not only losing 10% speed but also giving up a passive abilitiy slot, not to mention that you probaply want to incorporate a specific legendary weapon in your build, because they have very diverse effects.
I am more worried about 2hand builds without shield being viable than about 1hand/shield honestly.
I am more worried about 2hand builds without shield being viable than about 1hand/shield honestly.
I don't see a 2h build without a shield ever happening for a crusader, a shield gives so much survivability and useful stats it would be very foolish not to use one. 10% crit chance is better than most passives alone and is worth sacrificing a passive slot for, and that's just one affix. A crusader will ALWAYS use a shield. The only question is whether or not to use a 1h or 2h weapon, and right now that question seems almost rhetorical.
The penalty for using a 2h weapon is pretty much nothing. Move speed is capped at 25%, and you can get 25% move speed just from paragon levels, nevermind gear.
I think they should change Heavenly Strength to be double-sided, the way the monk passive Guardian's Path works (15% dodge while dual wielding, 25% extra spirit w/ a 2h). Add a perk into using a 1H weapon, like weapon strikes are more precise, adding 100% extra CD to critical strikes, or wrath builders have a 20% chance to generate 20 extra wrath, or you gain 75% more block amount, or 15% increased attack speed...I could go on but I won't.
The only pitfall with that is that Heavenly Strength becomes a must use skill, but as we now stand it pretty much is already. The other option would just be to replace one of the least used passives with a passive that gives bonuses to 1h's, like was suggested before.
Actually if my math is correct(which is probably isn't) the max speed with Heavenly Strength is 112.5% (125*0.9), which is even worse :p, because it's 10% of your TOTAL speed, not max or current. This is of course assuming that the % reduction is applied AFTER the cap is calculated, if it's calculated before the cap is put into place, you can just carry on stacking move speed till you hit 125% even with the 10%.
That said, I'm a huge fan of either making Heavenly Strength buff 1h, or making a seperate passive for them...
I would suggest something along the lines of:
When using a 1h and shield increases your shield block amount by X% of your strength, but your Crit Chance is reduced by X%
I'm thinking around 50%, enough to make a noticable difference, but not enough to make blocking OP :p, crit chance would be reduced by.. say 10%, to be in line with the movespeed nerf from Strength. This would make Heavenly Strength the 'go to' passive for Crusader Dps, as it would increase weapon damage, meaning you deal alot more damage (funny how that works :p) and would make Heavenly Fortitude the 'go to' passive for Tanky crusaders, as it would increase your defenses AND give Shield block some form of scaling beyond item level. It would also have a small effect on your damage, as most of the "Tanky" spells scale from Shield Block Value to some extent.
Or they could just be lame and merge it with the current passive "Hold Your Ground" remove the -dodge chance and make it "When you have a 1h equipped your block chance is increased by 15%". Would be VERY nice if this allowed you to get around the 75% block cap, meaning Crusaders with this passive could hit 90% chance to block.
75% block cap was D2, I don't think that block can get close that high in D3 unless some of the crusader passives and legendaries that I don't know about can stack multiplicatively. There is a ring that has like 8-11% block chance, stormshield that can have up to 34% block...and maybe a helm of command with 8%.
So there are two choices: make a 2-hander in 1hand less desirable or make the 1-hander & shield more viable.
Assuming that Blizzard development is happy with the current dps output of crusaders now (the baseline), reducing the desirability would move more people away from heavenly strength, which would lower the baseline, requiring them to retune crusader dps entirely. They have a lot of issues they need to fix to hit their launch date, so I think they would look for the quickest and simplest fix, if one is available. The easier routes would be:
Give 1-handers their own benefit under heavenly strength, as Xiam points out
Make 1-handed flails more powerful than other 1-handed weapons (being Crusader only, they won't get abused by dual wielders).
Given that option 1 allows for the most diversity of weapons, I would put that as the most likely solution.
Giving it some thought, I like"improve your block % by X" or "improve the amount you block by Y%" or "reduce damage taken by Z%" --This would allow you to become more turtle-like (more survivability at the cost of less damage output and speed).
True True, I think the highest you can get right now is 68% (34+8+11, from the sources you mentioned +15 from passive. They used to have a further 10% from Punish, but that was changed to Block Value a while back), but I have to guess that the Crusader set will have some amount of Block Chance on, either in stats or a set bonus, as Crusaders are thematically based around their shields.
Also do we know if Block Chance will be Enchantable? From what we've seen have any items been able to have Block Chance added at the mystic, beyond shields, Helm of Command or the mystery ring.
Also I mentioned the 75% block cap because a few beta patches back they put caps on alot of stats, and block chance was capped at 75%, I forgot that a couple of patches later those caps were removed, so IIRC Block has no cap in D3, beyond the articficial 'gear cap' of ~68%.
It was a cool idea and concept on paper - But Blizzard usually does this mistake in my opinion. Let me explain.
There is a structural flaw in Blizzard's way of thinking. Which is power for your character. Not that you have power in different ways. Not that something is expressed power in different ways - But that there are generalized terms of power.
How fast you kill something (DPS), how much dmg you can take (toughness). This makes for such problems as this.
And that is the cost of having a shallow system. You encounter balancing issues and have to homogenize a lot of talents towards the same purpose - as there is litlle to no diversity in the structure. i.e - One will simply be better then the other ; not taste, but factually supreme in numbers at such a low cost that it obliterates the cost.
Other games suffer from such issues - Such as LoL. But that is the cost of having a wide-spread audience speaking system - It becomes shallow and unbalanced in simple itterative terms.
Shields were only mentioned because I was talking about Block Cap in my earlier idea post on how I would buff 1h, we all understand that EVERY crusader will be using a shield, except the stoopid ones :p
p.s. on PTR today I saw a Sword with another 8% block chance on, so that brings the gear block cap up to 76%, which I will totally be going for, because fuck you I'm a tank :p
If a class has a choice between 1H+1H/offhand and 2H(+offhand) and one is vastly better than the other that isn't great, but not broken, but if a class has the same option and that classes damage output and survivability is significantly better than all other classes that's a whole differnt ball game (and AFAIK Heavenly Strength doesn't require a Flail so not subject to the 2H bow treatment).
2H Bow+Quiver is balanced damage wise with other class' options, whereas from what I can tell a Crusader with a 2H weapon+Shield will have higher damage output and defence than the other classes?
Mmh, you have a point, but this wasn't what this thread was about. At least I thought it was about different options for the same class and obviously 2h + shield is better than 1h + shield, same as quiver + 2h > quiver + 1h and 1h + 1h.
I only replied to point out the latter part.
Cross class balance could be achieved by giving the Crusader's skills lower damage coefficients for example.