I'm sure there is something i am missing with this set, but how does the atk speed effect shield bash? Wouldnt it be better to use cinder coat, magefist and Andariel's Visage to boost fire dmg and a RORG to maintain 4 set?
Like i said im sure there is something i dont understand or i am missing as to why the atk speed on the set unless it is for the sweep attack. Please help me with any info you may have to help clear up my misunderstanding.
With the last changes on PTR they seem to be aiming for Sweeping Attack for AoE + Shield Bash for Single Target.
I have been using Shield Bash on live without the full set because the full bonus is useless for Shield Bash in the long run, you can't maintain the Wrath and the Attack Speed so giving up the Attack Speed will drop your burst damage for sure but doubt it will affect your total damage output.
OP your forgetting your generator. The attack bonus affects everything, so on single target you just switch to a couple seconds of your generator, then go back to shield bash. And the +3 wrath passive actually helps a lot.
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
OP your forgetting your generator. The attack bonus affects everything, so on single target you just switch to a couple seconds of your generator, then go back to shield bash. And the +3 wrath passive actually helps a lot.
seen a few builds that dont even use a generator, with shield for reduce cost, cinder coat if you use a fire run, and the bracers as well as a few other skills that provide wrath, a generator isnt required to be able to spam shield bash
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
Ideally you'll be maximizing whichever one is bottlenecking clearspeed. Or splitting the difference I suppose. Hard decisions are supposed to be hard.
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
Ideally you'll be maximizing whichever one is bottlenecking clearspeed. Or splitting the difference I suppose. Hard decisions are supposed to be hard.
the one ptr video i seen guy was only running shield bash, so if that is the case it makes things easy. but this is getting off topic. was more wondering how the atk speed buffs anything for shield bash
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
Ideally you'll be maximizing whichever one is bottlenecking clearspeed. Or splitting the difference I suppose. Hard decisions are supposed to be hard.
the one ptr video i seen guy was only running shield bash, so if that is the case it makes things easy. but this is getting off topic. was more wondering how the atk speed buffs anything for shield bash
Well like I said above, it'l let you gain a ton more resource with a generator. You also have to take into account the 2 piece bonus of reducing your defensive skills and your law by a second with each attack of SB and SA. That alone should justify getting the 6p bonus for the attack speed, since you can then have almost permanent uptime on your law and iron skin, as well as consecration and judge.
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
Ideally you'll be maximizing whichever one is bottlenecking clearspeed. Or splitting the difference I suppose. Hard decisions are supposed to be hard.
the one ptr video i seen guy was only running shield bash, so if that is the case it makes things easy. but this is getting off topic. was more wondering how the atk speed buffs anything for shield bash
Well like I said above, it'l let you gain a ton more resource with a generator. You also have to take into account the 2 piece bonus of reducing your defensive skills and your law by a second with each attack of SB and SA. That alone should justify getting the 6p bonus for the attack speed, since you can then have almost permanent uptime on your law and iron skin, as well as consecration and judge.
What specifically about consecrate makes it your preference over Shield Glare?
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
Ideally you'll be maximizing whichever one is bottlenecking clearspeed. Or splitting the difference I suppose. Hard decisions are supposed to be hard.
the one ptr video i seen guy was only running shield bash, so if that is the case it makes things easy. but this is getting off topic. was more wondering how the atk speed buffs anything for shield bash
Well like I said above, it'l let you gain a ton more resource with a generator. You also have to take into account the 2 piece bonus of reducing your defensive skills and your law by a second with each attack of SB and SA. That alone should justify getting the 6p bonus for the attack speed, since you can then have almost permanent uptime on your law and iron skin, as well as consecration and judge.
What specifically about consecrate makes it your preference over Shield Glare?
I didn't say it was better lol, was just listing some of the other skills quick.
i would make a suggestion of using a focus + restrain for damage + 4pc rolands and using other survival type gear such as either capt's/aughilds/cindercoat/andy/leoric/w-e
other options are to use the new zodiac ring + SOJ? i think those options will be viable as well if you want to go for a perma wrath build using provoke + AC+all the other defensive skills to get in and out of trouble... so far i see we got the monk 4 pc bonus for swk transfered over ^^
the 6 pc still seems REALLY lack luster ( especially when we will be out of resources ) we could also be possibly be low on toughness esp since we will not have perma AC and we will have to be very careful in our playstyle
i would make a suggestion of using a focus + restrain for damage + 4pc rolands and using other survival type gear such as either capt's/aughilds/cindercoat/andy/leoric/w-e
other options are to use the new zodiac ring + SOJ? i think those options will be viable as well if you want to go for a perma wrath build using provoke + AC+all the other defensive skills to get in and out of trouble... so far i see we got the monk 4 pc bonus for swk transfered over ^^
the 6 pc still seems REALLY lack luster ( especially when we will be out of resources ) we could also be possibly be low on toughness esp since we will not have perma AC and we will have to be very careful in our playstyle
Permanent Iron Skin provides superior DR to permanent AC (with room for error depending on gear value), the primary loss in defense is no longer having a 20s CD revive. Whether or not having that revive should be a thing (that's literally 90% of the power in Akkhan's) is an entirely separate subject. In effect Roland's will perform superior defensive up until the point where Akkhan's revive becomes the majority of a crusader's defenses, however Roland's has something like 5x the damage output of Akkhan making it a relatively viable DPS member of a group (in an ideal world) so that's a reasonable trade. Additionally properly optimized Roland's doesn't have resource starvation, but neither do you have an absolute overabundance. It plays closer to a high-low game than other builds. I did some significant testing on PTR w/ Sweep-Bash and a bevy of resource generating abilities and the result was more or less unlimited resources. Keep in mind that those abilities consisted mostly of Unstoppable Force and Shield Glare.
That 6P bonus with resource optimization is a terrifying amount of damage output (which crusader desperately needs if it is to have a viable dedicated DPS spec). Keep in mind that you could be running near permanent uptime on CC with shield glare (either as a generator or as a damage amp) in conjunction with permanent uptime on Iron Skin. I find I like both Steel Skin and Flash. Remember that the 2p is not an excuse to ignore CDR on your gear as the flat reductions in CD on skills become better as your CDR gets higher.
Testing with Bastions revealed that it's less than ideal when you're not running an explicit generator.For pure bash builds it would certainly be a solid option but the constant need to switch between attacks is a bit of a hassle (compared to a spec where generator and spender are not tied to attack animations). Honestly depending on what exactly performs best for the build (Sweeper, Basher, Sweep-Bash please Blizz I want the set to be all about the combination). Zodiac+SoJ or even the use of a powerful legendary in the helm or chest (over Zodiac I'd think) will outperform Bastions in a build that does not utilize a generator. Keep in mind that a Bash build has a significant disadvantage in AoE over having sweep attack (even Shield Bash's best AoE is relatively small compared to sweep), I haven't done enough testing for non-sweep builds as I had poor luck in terms of ancient weapon drops while I was on the PTR.
so if we go RORG and 5 piece with cindercoat, what weapon will be best for a shield bash build? Any ancient to start our with for max dmg but in the end what would be ideal? a maximus for bonus fire dmg?
copied my account to PTR a bit ago and was trying a bit out, with cinder coat, rorg and 5 piece i was seeing 300 mil top end crits. was using my BOP since its ancient and crafted the shield for reduce cost. Didnt bother to change out my gems either so i had in ones ideal for condemn build.
How much cooldown reduction are we going to want to run and should we get CDR over dps stats on rings and such? THink i had ~30%. (8% ring 9% weapon 8% shoulders and 10% paragon)
I don't have specific answers since a I had relatively limited testing chance. I'm just relaying the trends I saw and what the raw math suggests.
I would imagine for a Fire Bash build top end weapons would be relegated to Ancient Furnace and Maximus (depending on relative speed returns). CDR may peak around 35%, though I'm not sure what the consensus is on CDR contribution to builds, it will definitely depend on skill loadout to some extent. CDR will definitely outperform AS (no surprise) and may outperform CHC, once again depending on exact builds. I haven't found a real consensus on which skills and which runes, partly because the nerf hurt so much and partly because we don't have proper sweep support.
I'd say CDR > CHC on rings but crit is king on amulets and gloves.
I personally have a solid Flense so I stuck to Sweep-Bash and used physical because holy hell pound so I didn;t experiment much with Cindercoat or Maximus. Hence not having a solid idea on what such a build will optimize to.
Edit: Minor provision when using judgement CHC is going to underperform relative to CDR in a LOT of cases. 20% crit chance bonus absolutely guts the CHC gear curve.
if shield bash is also 300% block value how much of a diff would a 10% block vs 20% block be? sure math is easy it would be 30 vs 60 but how do those numbers factor into shield base as a whole.
would a 20% block shield with 11% block on it make that big of a difference?
So if you go form 10% to 30% block you go from 730% to 790% wDamage which is an 8% damage increase.
not sure about the whole (shield%) part but i guess i was trying to make things alot more complicated. seems simple enough that its 700% weapon dmg + block%. so with shield with max block is 31% (20base/11 secondary) for grand total of 793% weapon dmg.
so then what about the ring Justice Lantern which comes with a 16% block on it. 16x3=48+793=841%.
*edit*
well doing the math myself its just a hair over 6% dmg increase. so other rings prob alot more useful then using a lantern for the block on it.
I'm sure there is something i am missing with this set, but how does the atk speed effect shield bash? Wouldnt it be better to use cinder coat, magefist and Andariel's Visage to boost fire dmg and a RORG to maintain 4 set?
Like i said im sure there is something i dont understand or i am missing as to why the atk speed on the set unless it is for the sweep attack. Please help me with any info you may have to help clear up my misunderstanding.
Thanks for your time and have a good day.
It serves only one purpose, and that is to help reset the cool downs affected by the set that much faster. When you use the set without the 6p bonus you really notice the downtime on IS/Law/Sglare.
I'm sure there is something i am missing with this set, but how does the atk speed effect shield bash? Wouldnt it be better to use cinder coat, magefist and Andariel's Visage to boost fire dmg and a RORG to maintain 4 set?
Like i said im sure there is something i dont understand or i am missing as to why the atk speed on the set unless it is for the sweep attack. Please help me with any info you may have to help clear up my misunderstanding.
Thanks for your time and have a good day.
It serves only one purpose, and that is to help reset the cool downs affected by the set that much faster. When you use the set without the 6p bonus you really notice the downtime on IS/Law/Sglare.
I'm sure there is something i am missing with this set, but how does the atk speed effect shield bash? Wouldnt it be better to use cinder coat, magefist and Andariel's Visage to boost fire dmg and a RORG to maintain 4 set?
Like i said im sure there is something i dont understand or i am missing as to why the atk speed on the set unless it is for the sweep attack. Please help me with any info you may have to help clear up my misunderstanding.
Thanks for your time and have a good day.
With the last changes on PTR they seem to be aiming for Sweeping Attack for AoE + Shield Bash for Single Target.
I have been using Shield Bash on live without the full set because the full bonus is useless for Shield Bash in the long run, you can't maintain the Wrath and the Attack Speed so giving up the Attack Speed will drop your burst damage for sure but doubt it will affect your total damage output.
OP your forgetting your generator. The attack bonus affects everything, so on single target you just switch to a couple seconds of your generator, then go back to shield bash. And the +3 wrath passive actually helps a lot.
if they want us to use sweep for aoe and shield for single just sucks the skills are on the same 3 pieces of gear. Hard to try and max skill dmg of both that way.
seen a few builds that dont even use a generator, with shield for reduce cost, cinder coat if you use a fire run, and the bracers as well as a few other skills that provide wrath, a generator isnt required to be able to spam shield bash
Ideally you'll be maximizing whichever one is bottlenecking clearspeed. Or splitting the difference I suppose. Hard decisions are supposed to be hard.
the one ptr video i seen guy was only running shield bash, so if that is the case it makes things easy. but this is getting off topic. was more wondering how the atk speed buffs anything for shield bash
Well like I said above, it'l let you gain a ton more resource with a generator. You also have to take into account the 2 piece bonus of reducing your defensive skills and your law by a second with each attack of SB and SA. That alone should justify getting the 6p bonus for the attack speed, since you can then have almost permanent uptime on your law and iron skin, as well as consecration and judge.
What specifically about consecrate makes it your preference over Shield Glare?
I didn't say it was better lol, was just listing some of the other skills quick.
i would make a suggestion of using a focus + restrain for damage + 4pc rolands and using other survival type gear such as either capt's/aughilds/cindercoat/andy/leoric/w-e
other options are to use the new zodiac ring + SOJ? i think those options will be viable as well if you want to go for a perma wrath build using provoke + AC+all the other defensive skills to get in and out of trouble... so far i see we got the monk 4 pc bonus for swk transfered over ^^
the 6 pc still seems REALLY lack luster ( especially when we will be out of resources ) we could also be possibly be low on toughness esp since we will not have perma AC and we will have to be very careful in our playstyle
Permanent Iron Skin provides superior DR to permanent AC (with room for error depending on gear value), the primary loss in defense is no longer having a 20s CD revive. Whether or not having that revive should be a thing (that's literally 90% of the power in Akkhan's) is an entirely separate subject. In effect Roland's will perform superior defensive up until the point where Akkhan's revive becomes the majority of a crusader's defenses, however Roland's has something like 5x the damage output of Akkhan making it a relatively viable DPS member of a group (in an ideal world) so that's a reasonable trade. Additionally properly optimized Roland's doesn't have resource starvation, but neither do you have an absolute overabundance. It plays closer to a high-low game than other builds. I did some significant testing on PTR w/ Sweep-Bash and a bevy of resource generating abilities and the result was more or less unlimited resources. Keep in mind that those abilities consisted mostly of Unstoppable Force and Shield Glare.
That 6P bonus with resource optimization is a terrifying amount of damage output (which crusader desperately needs if it is to have a viable dedicated DPS spec). Keep in mind that you could be running near permanent uptime on CC with shield glare (either as a generator or as a damage amp) in conjunction with permanent uptime on Iron Skin. I find I like both Steel Skin and Flash. Remember that the 2p is not an excuse to ignore CDR on your gear as the flat reductions in CD on skills become better as your CDR gets higher.
Testing with Bastions revealed that it's less than ideal when you're not running an explicit generator.For pure bash builds it would certainly be a solid option but the constant need to switch between attacks is a bit of a hassle (compared to a spec where generator and spender are not tied to attack animations). Honestly depending on what exactly performs best for the build (Sweeper, Basher, Sweep-Bash please Blizz I want the set to be all about the combination). Zodiac+SoJ or even the use of a powerful legendary in the helm or chest (over Zodiac I'd think) will outperform Bastions in a build that does not utilize a generator. Keep in mind that a Bash build has a significant disadvantage in AoE over having sweep attack (even Shield Bash's best AoE is relatively small compared to sweep), I haven't done enough testing for non-sweep builds as I had poor luck in terms of ancient weapon drops while I was on the PTR.
so if we go RORG and 5 piece with cindercoat, what weapon will be best for a shield bash build? Any ancient to start our with for max dmg but in the end what would be ideal? a maximus for bonus fire dmg?
copied my account to PTR a bit ago and was trying a bit out, with cinder coat, rorg and 5 piece i was seeing 300 mil top end crits. was using my BOP since its ancient and crafted the shield for reduce cost. Didnt bother to change out my gems either so i had in ones ideal for condemn build.
How much cooldown reduction are we going to want to run and should we get CDR over dps stats on rings and such? THink i had ~30%. (8% ring 9% weapon 8% shoulders and 10% paragon)
I don't have specific answers since a I had relatively limited testing chance. I'm just relaying the trends I saw and what the raw math suggests.
I would imagine for a Fire Bash build top end weapons would be relegated to Ancient Furnace and Maximus (depending on relative speed returns). CDR may peak around 35%, though I'm not sure what the consensus is on CDR contribution to builds, it will definitely depend on skill loadout to some extent. CDR will definitely outperform AS (no surprise) and may outperform CHC, once again depending on exact builds. I haven't found a real consensus on which skills and which runes, partly because the nerf hurt so much and partly because we don't have proper sweep support.
I'd say CDR > CHC on rings but crit is king on amulets and gloves.
I personally have a solid Flense so I stuck to Sweep-Bash and used physical because holy hell pound so I didn;t experiment much with Cindercoat or Maximus. Hence not having a solid idea on what such a build will optimize to.
Edit: Minor provision when using judgement CHC is going to underperform relative to CDR in a LOT of cases. 20% crit chance bonus absolutely guts the CHC gear curve.
if shield bash is also 300% block value how much of a diff would a 10% block vs 20% block be? sure math is easy it would be 30 vs 60 but how do those numbers factor into shield base as a whole.
would a 20% block shield with 11% block on it make that big of a difference?
Shield bash damage is Listed w% + (Shield% * block %)
So if you go form 10% to 30% block you go from 730% to 790% wDamage which is an 8% damage increase.
not sure about the whole (shield%) part but i guess i was trying to make things alot more complicated. seems simple enough that its 700% weapon dmg + block%. so with shield with max block is 31% (20base/11 secondary) for grand total of 793% weapon dmg.
so then what about the ring Justice Lantern which comes with a 16% block on it. 16x3=48+793=841%.
*edit*
well doing the math myself its just a hair over 6% dmg increase. so other rings prob alot more useful then using a lantern for the block on it.
It serves only one purpose, and that is to help reset the cool downs affected by the set that much faster. When you use the set without the 6p bonus you really notice the downtime on IS/Law/Sglare.
Well that and double DPS during fights.
Maybe in T6 when you don't have to move for shit : )