Today I present the initial return of Spin to Win. In 2.1 it will be possible to have permanent WOTB with some combination of Vigilante Belt, Leoric's Crown, and rank 200 Gogok of Swiftness. When combined with the Pain Enhancer gem and a slow 2-hander like the Furnace, the Double Tornado build is a force to be reckoned with.
In this video I showcase a prepped 4 elite + Rift Guardian T6 rift, go over the build, gear, paragon points, and talk about item combinations and breakpoints. I hope to revisit this again in a later video where I integrate legendary gems. Enjoy!
(Build calc not included because it's PTR and skills/runes are different)
I don't want to be controversial here -- and don't get me wrong, I usually like your content. But these builds you have been posting as of late are a bit lackluster in the creativity and research realm. I understand you want to have views and followers, so posting new content is important. But pretty much what it boils down to in your build videos is your having an awesome gear, making pretty much all builds with a semblance of thought viable.
The build you are showcasing in this particular video would have a lot of trouble going past GR30, even with your incredible gear. Spin to win is not back, at least not in this form. Consider a raekor-WW build instead, which has awesome movement, is great at packing mobs together (for teamplay, for AOE maximization, etc...), likely deals more damage and has more survivability.
What's more, it is impossible to get perma wrath. This would require 77% of effective CDR, which no barb gear can achieve, even with new leoric, gogok and belt. Part of the reason is that CDR and the passive boon of bul kathos don't work well together: the base on which CDR is calculated already includes boon's bonus. Too bad. That being said, 50% WOTB uptime is possible at a fairly low cost to dps, which makes it OK as part of a late-game build I guess.
I like your choice of Auguild, which people might have discarded as sub-par itemization, but which really is not. That being said, it is not that good with the new Furnace, because its bonus damage is additive, not multiplicative to other elite dmg bonuses.
Overall I think you started with a good idea, and made it worth the viewer's time because you have a truly amazing gear. But the build itself, the research behind it and the itemization is a bit lackluster. That being said, I still enjoy your content and am impressed by your productivity when it comes to sharing content with your viewers. If it can allow other people to refine these builds and think them through, it would be all for the better, so keep it up!
I don't want to be controversial here -- and don't get me wrong, I usually like your content. But these builds you have been posting as of late are a bit lackluster in the creativity and research realm. I understand you want to have views and followers, so posting new content is important. But pretty much what it boils down to in your build videos is your having an awesome gear, making pretty much all builds with a semblance of thought viable.
The build you are showcasing in this particular video would have a lot of trouble going past GR30, even with your incredible gear. Spin to win is not back, at least not in this form. Consider a raekor-WW build instead, which has awesome movement, is great at packing mobs together (for teamplay, for AOE maximization, etc...), likely deals more damage and has more survivability.
What's more, it is impossible to get perma wrath. This would require 77% of effective CDR, which no barb gear can achieve, even with new leoric, gogok and belt. Part of the reason is that CDR and the passive boon of bul kathos don't work well together: the base on which CDR is calculated already includes boon's bonus. Too bad. That being said, 50% WOTB uptime is possible at a fairly low cost to dps, which makes it OK as part of a late-game build I guess.
I like your choice of Auguild, which people might have discarded as sub-par itemization, but which really is not. That being said, it is not that good with the new Furnace, because its bonus damage is additive, not multiplicative to other elite dmg bonuses.
Overall I think you started with a good idea, and made it worth the viewer's time because you have a truly amazing gear. But the build itself, the research behind it and the itemization is a bit lackluster. That being said, I still enjoy your content and am impressed by your productivity when it comes to sharing content with your viewers. If it can allow other people to refine these builds and think them through, it would be all for the better, so keep it up!
Thanks for your feedback, this is the type of constructive criticism I like. With regards to my gear, 'any build' won't quite work, but yes a lot more builds are viable on PTR because 1) Ancients are now really good and 2) 2H weapons are now really good. If nothing else, it's a showcase of those two facts. I want people to see that build diversity is possible, but yes I agree some builds will be stronger than others.
With regards to these 'pure' builds, there's only 1 more I'll be showing - fire HOTA - before I make ~2-4 greater rift videos combining Raekors, IK, Ancients, EQ, etc. I've already done EQ and Raekor's videos, but this will be a good follow up at higher tiers. I may or may not add in legendary gems.
I like Aughild because outside of EQ (shoulders) or Raekors (shoulders - either Raekor or Ward), there's no good shoulder slot. If anything, the new Furnace allows you to drop SoJ and equip double Unity instead.
Add in 20% from max stack Gogok of Swiftness and you get ~76.65%
Add in 8% from Vigilante and you get ~78.52%
I'll show you the math if necessary, but yes it's possible. The question is whether it's FEASIBLE, considering you would need max CDR in ALL slots and you'd have to dual wield with 10% in each weapon.
What's more, it is impossible to get perma wrath. This would require 77% of effective CDR, which no barb gear can achieve, even with new leoric, gogok and belt. Part of the reason is that CDR and the passive boon of bul kathos don't work well together: the base on which CDR is calculated already includes boon's bonus. Too bad. That being said, 50% WOTB uptime is possible at a fairly low cost to dps, which makes it OK as part of a late-game build I guess.
Add in 20% from max stack Gogok of Swiftness and you get ~76.65%
Add in 8% from Vigilante and you get ~78.52%
I'll show you the math if necessary, but yes it's possible. The question is whether it's FEASIBLE, considering you would need max CDR in ALL slots and you'd have to dual wield with 10% in each weapon.
I'll show the math since it is very simple.
1 * .875 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .9 * .9 * .9 = 0.42041162661
1 - 0.42041162661 = 0.57958837339. So with max CDR on everything (counting paragon points) before the new items and set bonuses you will have 57.958837339% CDR
Now with the new items stated above: 1 * .75 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .9 * .9 * .9 * .8 * .92 = 0.26521967758
1 - 0.26521967758 = 0.73478032242 so 73.478032242% CDR.
Add on Boon of Bul-Kathos and it is taking 73.478032242% off of 90 seconds which is 23.8697709822 seconds. A whole 3 seconds of down time. Add on captain crimson's set or born's set and you get 76.130229018% CDR for a cooldown of 21.4827938838 seconds. So you can do it with some sets that allow you to have two pieces free with RoRG.
And let's be honest here. Almost 100% uptime on wrath of the berserker would be pretty op.
They just need to reverse battle rage and ToC back to where they were and it will be fine.
They get ride of perma WOTB but give perma Akkrat champion, which is basically the an upgraded version of perma wotb. You don't even need to hit anything to stay perma
What's more, it is impossible to get perma wrath. This would require 77% of effective CDR, which no barb gear can achieve, even with new leoric, gogok and belt. Part of the reason is that CDR and the passive boon of bul kathos don't work well together: the base on which CDR is calculated already includes boon's bonus. Too bad. That being said, 50% WOTB uptime is possible at a fairly low cost to dps, which makes it OK as part of a late-game build I guess.
With regards to CDR, here's what I came up:
Max CDR in all slots EXCEPT for helm, according to http://bannedofgamers.com/index.php?cdr/ gives you 61.08%
Add in 25% from Leorics and you get ~70.81%
Add in 20% from max stack Gogok of Swiftness and you get ~76.65%
Add in 8% from Vigilante and you get ~78.52%
I'll show you the math if necessary, but yes it's possible. The question is whether it's FEASIBLE, considering you would need max CDR in ALL slots and you'd have to dual wield with 10% in each weapon.
I'll show the math since it is very simple.
1 * .875 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .9 * .9 * .9 = 0.42041162661
1 - 0.42041162661 = 0.57958837339. So with max CDR on everything (counting paragon points) before the new items and set bonuses you will have 57.958837339% CDR
Now with the new items stated above: 1 * .75 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .9 * .9 * .9 * .8 * .92 = 0.26521967758
1 - 0.26521967758 = 0.73478032242 so 73.478032242% CDR.
Add on Boon of Bul-Kathos and it is taking 73.478032242% off of 90 seconds which is 23.8697709822 seconds. A whole 3 seconds of down time. Add on captain crimson's set or born's set and you get 76.130229018% CDR for a cooldown of 21.4827938838 seconds. So you can do it with some sets that allow you to have two pieces free with RoRG.
And let's be honest here. Almost 100% uptime on wrath of the berserker would be pretty op.
Not sure where our math is different, maybe due to rounding. Anyway, it's close enough.
Permawrath (or very close to), still won't be THAT op. Think about it. Yes you can use Insanity rune for 50% damage, but consider how much you're going to give up in CDR rolls on gear to make it happen. Well over 50%. Not to mention that you can't use EQ, Raekor, or IK with this. You HAVE to do Captains & Borns and you HAVE to dual wield. I think some leeway where like 5-8 seconds of downtime will be more feasible, but we'll see.
I'd like to begin straight away by stating that I was wrong. I forgot to include paragon points as a CDR. What can you do.
Perma-WOTB is possible.
For future reference, here is an exhaustive list of CDR available to Barbarians (please correct me if I'm wrong):
From item stats:
Head (Leoric): 25% (crucially, this is not 12.5% CDR applied twice, but 25%)
Shoulders: 8%
Amulet: 8%
Gloves: 8%
Ring1: 8%
Ring2: 8%
Vigilante: 8%
MH: 10%
OH: 10%
Gogok: 20% (is there a change in next PTR patch?)
From set bonuses:
Born's: 10%
Captain Crimson's: 10%
From parangon points:
10 %
CDR:
1 - .75 * .92^6 * .9^5 * .8 = ~78.52%
This reduces a cooldown of 90sec to 70.66 sec. Which is perma-WOTB. My bad, I didn't take parangon points in my original calculation.Perma-WOTB is then possible (and feasible), but certainly not worth it, as you rightfully point out. Indeed, the constraints it puts on the itemization means the resulting loss of DPS is not compensated by the bonus of having perma-wotb.
Now that this is behind, it raises the question: for those people who would like to use WOTB, what do you think is a comfortable uptime, in your experience? 50% CDR (55% uptime) is really easy to achieve (paragon, gogok, leoric, shoulders) at virtually no cost to (sheet-)dps. Up from this point, there is a trade-off between WOTB uptime and DPS. 100% uptime is possible but we decided it was not desirable as it costs too much in terms of dps. If we further decide that 55% is too little, then by continuity there must be a sweet spot in-between. What would you think would be the target uptime for comfortable use of WOTB? If it depends on some parameters (GR level, etc...), what would they be?
This kind of 'research' to find just the sweet spot is what I meant by thinking the build through. It requires work and experimentation, and of course we can't expect you to do all that, but since you obviously have more experience ingame, you could help to put some more empirics into this theorycrafting
I know you showcased a build with a raekor lightning build. It was a good idea, yet, if you added WW to the lighting build, it would have become so much more enjoyable, safe, and efficient. Granted, you do something else than just spinning in this case - you charge, reposition yourself with ww to optimize the next charge, then charge again, and so on... The gameplay is really fluid, and it needs not necessarily be with a lighthing build, it can as well be with a physical+furnace build, or yet another element.
Bottom line: I'm all for a WW comeback, but I don't think the build you showcase in this video is just that -- not just yet. That being said, I think we can all agree that the greater build diversity that patch 2.1 will bring about, which your videos perfectily epotimize, is refreshing.
1) I think the highest uptime with the least tradeoff will be with EQ build, as you want to get as much CDR as possible anyway. You will easily have 50%, and something like 60-65% is reasonable without dropping too much dps. This will allow you to have wrath for almost every elite pack and on rg, which is where you need it most.
2) Dual wield builds with good 1h weapons may want to get as high uptime as possible, since you'll be able to get another 10%. Furthermore, with Ramaladni's gift you will still be able to get main stat, %damage, socket, AND CDR, so you won't lose that much.
3) Cold builds with Frostburns and Rimeheart. The most recent change to Rimeheart (10% chance to hit for 10,000% weapon damage against frozen mobs of ALL types) makes it a good weapon and competitive with 2 handers. I'll have to test this with freezequake, but it might be pretty nasty even if cold EQ is only a 10% proc coefficient. When combined with Rend or WW/Hurricane though, it might be competitive.
A respectful discussion with reasoned arguments and counter-arguments, an acknowledgement and correction of errors, and no "you're stupid lol wat a noob" pointless insults? What sort of madness is this?
In this video I showcase a prepped 4 elite + Rift Guardian T6 rift, go over the build, gear, paragon points, and talk about item combinations and breakpoints. I hope to revisit this again in a later video where I integrate legendary gems. Enjoy!
(Build calc not included because it's PTR and skills/runes are different)
http://youtu.be/ZwXyGjc4j8A
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
The build you are showcasing in this particular video would have a lot of trouble going past GR30, even with your incredible gear. Spin to win is not back, at least not in this form. Consider a raekor-WW build instead, which has awesome movement, is great at packing mobs together (for teamplay, for AOE maximization, etc...), likely deals more damage and has more survivability.
What's more, it is impossible to get perma wrath. This would require 77% of effective CDR, which no barb gear can achieve, even with new leoric, gogok and belt. Part of the reason is that CDR and the passive boon of bul kathos don't work well together: the base on which CDR is calculated already includes boon's bonus. Too bad. That being said, 50% WOTB uptime is possible at a fairly low cost to dps, which makes it OK as part of a late-game build I guess.
I like your choice of Auguild, which people might have discarded as sub-par itemization, but which really is not. That being said, it is not that good with the new Furnace, because its bonus damage is additive, not multiplicative to other elite dmg bonuses.
Overall I think you started with a good idea, and made it worth the viewer's time because you have a truly amazing gear. But the build itself, the research behind it and the itemization is a bit lackluster. That being said, I still enjoy your content and am impressed by your productivity when it comes to sharing content with your viewers. If it can allow other people to refine these builds and think them through, it would be all for the better, so keep it up!
With regards to these 'pure' builds, there's only 1 more I'll be showing - fire HOTA - before I make ~2-4 greater rift videos combining Raekors, IK, Ancients, EQ, etc. I've already done EQ and Raekor's videos, but this will be a good follow up at higher tiers. I may or may not add in legendary gems.
I like Aughild because outside of EQ (shoulders) or Raekors (shoulders - either Raekor or Ward), there's no good shoulder slot. If anything, the new Furnace allows you to drop SoJ and equip double Unity instead.
With regards to CDR, here's what I came up:
Max CDR in all slots EXCEPT for helm, according to http://bannedofgamers.com/index.php?cdr/ gives you 61.08%
Add in 25% from Leorics and you get ~70.81%
Add in 20% from max stack Gogok of Swiftness and you get ~76.65%
Add in 8% from Vigilante and you get ~78.52%
I'll show you the math if necessary, but yes it's possible. The question is whether it's FEASIBLE, considering you would need max CDR in ALL slots and you'd have to dual wield with 10% in each weapon.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
I'll show the math since it is very simple.
1 * .875 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .9 * .9 * .9 = 0.42041162661
1 - 0.42041162661 = 0.57958837339. So with max CDR on everything (counting paragon points) before the new items and set bonuses you will have 57.958837339% CDR
Now with the new items stated above: 1 * .75 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .92 * .9 * .9 * .9 * .8 * .92 = 0.26521967758
1 - 0.26521967758 = 0.73478032242 so 73.478032242% CDR.
Add on Boon of Bul-Kathos and it is taking 73.478032242% off of 90 seconds which is 23.8697709822 seconds. A whole 3 seconds of down time. Add on captain crimson's set or born's set and you get 76.130229018% CDR for a cooldown of 21.4827938838 seconds. So you can do it with some sets that allow you to have two pieces free with RoRG.
And let's be honest here. Almost 100% uptime on wrath of the berserker would be pretty op.
They get ride of perma WOTB but give perma Akkrat champion, which is basically the an upgraded version of perma wotb. You don't even need to hit anything to stay perma
Permawrath (or very close to), still won't be THAT op. Think about it. Yes you can use Insanity rune for 50% damage, but consider how much you're going to give up in CDR rolls on gear to make it happen. Well over 50%. Not to mention that you can't use EQ, Raekor, or IK with this. You HAVE to do Captains & Borns and you HAVE to dual wield. I think some leeway where like 5-8 seconds of downtime will be more feasible, but we'll see.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
I'd like to begin straight away by stating that I was wrong. I forgot to include paragon points as a CDR. What can you do.
Perma-WOTB is possible.
For future reference, here is an exhaustive list of CDR available to Barbarians (please correct me if I'm wrong):
From item stats:
1 - .75 * .92^6 * .9^5 * .8 = ~78.52%
This reduces a cooldown of 90sec to 70.66 sec. Which is perma-WOTB. My bad, I didn't take parangon points in my original calculation.Perma-WOTB is then possible (and feasible), but certainly not worth it, as you rightfully point out. Indeed, the constraints it puts on the itemization means the resulting loss of DPS is not compensated by the bonus of having perma-wotb.
Now that this is behind, it raises the question: for those people who would like to use WOTB, what do you think is a comfortable uptime, in your experience? 50% CDR (55% uptime) is really easy to achieve (paragon, gogok, leoric, shoulders) at virtually no cost to (sheet-)dps. Up from this point, there is a trade-off between WOTB uptime and DPS. 100% uptime is possible but we decided it was not desirable as it costs too much in terms of dps. If we further decide that 55% is too little, then by continuity there must be a sweet spot in-between. What would you think would be the target uptime for comfortable use of WOTB? If it depends on some parameters (GR level, etc...), what would they be?
This kind of 'research' to find just the sweet spot is what I meant by thinking the build through. It requires work and experimentation, and of course we can't expect you to do all that, but since you obviously have more experience ingame, you could help to put some more empirics into this theorycrafting
I know you showcased a build with a raekor lightning build. It was a good idea, yet, if you added WW to the lighting build, it would have become so much more enjoyable, safe, and efficient. Granted, you do something else than just spinning in this case - you charge, reposition yourself with ww to optimize the next charge, then charge again, and so on... The gameplay is really fluid, and it needs not necessarily be with a lighthing build, it can as well be with a physical+furnace build, or yet another element.
Bottom line: I'm all for a WW comeback, but I don't think the build you showcase in this video is just that -- not just yet. That being said, I think we can all agree that the greater build diversity that patch 2.1 will bring about, which your videos perfectily epotimize, is refreshing.
1) I think the highest uptime with the least tradeoff will be with EQ build, as you want to get as much CDR as possible anyway. You will easily have 50%, and something like 60-65% is reasonable without dropping too much dps. This will allow you to have wrath for almost every elite pack and on rg, which is where you need it most.
2) Dual wield builds with good 1h weapons may want to get as high uptime as possible, since you'll be able to get another 10%. Furthermore, with Ramaladni's gift you will still be able to get main stat, %damage, socket, AND CDR, so you won't lose that much.
3) Cold builds with Frostburns and Rimeheart. The most recent change to Rimeheart (10% chance to hit for 10,000% weapon damage against frozen mobs of ALL types) makes it a good weapon and competitive with 2 handers. I'll have to test this with freezequake, but it might be pretty nasty even if cold EQ is only a 10% proc coefficient. When combined with Rend or WW/Hurricane though, it might be competitive.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
My Barb - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Plague-1902/hero/1082227