Although my main is a wizard, I have always considered my barb to be my #2 char. He's now almost a year old but just keeps sitting in a corner because we somehow never found to each other. I've tried many different builds (for a while, HotA would be fun but it wore out quickly for me), but mostly I just want WW to work - because for one or two seasons, WW barb was my main in D2 as well, so there must be a way...
I've got some questions about general game play first.
1) Group composition: Which classes go well with a WW barb? Please don't say WD, because that's the class none of my friends wants to play. Their ranking is kind of DH>monk>wiz>barb in terms of class preference, but we're all flexible (to some extent).
2) Rend: Obviously, coming from Archon, Rend is alienating. It seems like you leave all mobs behind alive. I've heard of WW builds without Rend, but almost every guide has Rend as main damage spell... any recommendations for a build that works differently here (i.e., I see stuff dying)?
3) NV5: One thing I find in every WW guide these days is that "you'll skip elites since it takes too long to kill them". Yet, WW barbs are the most efficient class for paragon farming. And the impact of NV5 on XP is so huge; so how does this work? You spent a few minutes to kill the first 5 packs and then skip elites or what?
Now, for those of you who're wondering what my char looks like... I'm switching a lot of gear and skills as I've read many guides (here and on the official forums) and tried several things, but nothing really felt "good" so far. Here's my current work-in-progress. Note that I have a full IK set (although it has low DPS), some jewelry, and some 1H weapons, but all in the same very low budget. I really don't need advice that is more suitable to 300k DPS MP10 barbs, because I know that's not where I belong. I'm fine if this works on lower MPs first.
I know it's a noob barb, but hey, he's been neglected by me for a year now, so don't be to hard on him. So, some further questions...
4) There's some nice advice on MP/EHP/DPS for Archon, is there something similar for barbs for lower MPs? I was surprised to see that my barb has 550k EHP because I'm a one-shot for some elite packs... but it's also hard to strike the EHP/DPS balance.
5) I'm really torn between Skorn and one hand weapons... but the Skorn gives a lot of DPS plus a huge LS bonus; would you recommend this or should I rather switch to 2x 1H with my extremely low budget?
@estereth: I don't have a "budget" at all right now, I just want to see how it works, and then I'll see how much I'm willing to spend. But I don't have hundreds of millions ;-)
@lurker124: Welcome to my world, I kind of hate efficiency as well, but we're all a bit worried about the upcoming paragon system and are kind of driven to farm paragon XP. But if it's not fun to play, I ain't playing it :-) I had a HotA barb for a while and didn't like it too much, so I guess I'm fine with Skorn+trash. I switched passive to Superstition now, thanks for the Brawler heads-up.
@Meloku: Thanks, lots of helpful hints there. It's been quite some time since I could just "improve my DPS and don't worry about EHP". I guess that's something only valid for barbs
I did a run with a friend of mine (who's also trying to get his barb working), and after some testing and fiddling around it actually worked out quite well (on MP7). I'll see how things work out in the long run, if it's worth to dump more money into the barb. But from all I've read, it's almost impossible to progress beyond MP7/MP8 anyways (I keep reading that MP10 WW barb requires 2b, which is not my league ;-)).
I really dont think any build works that well with WW barb other than WW barbs. Most classes just can not keep up with one so you end up not synergizing that well with each other. Of course if you have an extremely well organized team, this may not be true but in general I think my statement is correct.
For farming, I got the initial 5 NV, then skipped elites the rest of the way. Although with my farm spec, elites didn't really take that long so I didn't gain that much from skipping them. People that run rend as their main output are the ones that tend to skip elites as rend takes a long time to down them. This is of course on high mp.
The advantage of Skorn is rend. That's pretty much it. Everything else, be it WW or Hota, dual wielding, will out damage it.
@RasAlgethi: I tried HotA, but somehow was even more difficult than Rend. Plus, I played a HotA build for a while and quickly got bored...
In general, the Rend topic might have resolved itself, I was worried about "leaving all the mobs behind alive" that wouldn't go well together with other characters, but it's even a bigger problem with WW itself on that matter.
@estereth: I'll look into Litany once I decide to dump some gold into my barb. I have a no-LS EF, but kinda feel now that Skorn might be better for me. But I'll see, thanks for the advice.
@Elendiro: I had to laugh when Moldran said "all you need is a paragon 100 barb". /facepalm. Well, but at least this video indeed contained some helpful advice for gearing, such as "don't get Rend on IK belt". Haven't thought about that (though I'm not going 5pc IK anyways). And thanks for the hint with Overpower - it's on button 1 ;-)
@Shad3slayer: Thank you!!! That is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for (the EHP/DPS numbers and stuff). And about the weapons - it all sounds like a Skorn is the way to go because it always has insanely high average damage. But I don't know why you say "LL on MH". I mean, shouldn't MH all be about high average damage (thus sacrificing LS and get that on OH)? I have some 1h weapons, with and without LS, but I feel that my LS Skorn tops all of them (gain ~10k DPS and have huge LS)...
@MrHums: Well, if I don't get LS on my weapon, I need my LS passive, so I can't use Brawler. I can't have it all ;-) I'll also look into a non-LS Skorn, but to be honest the one I have (found it on one of my mules, I'm sometimes too lazy to put stuff on the AH and it's worth quite a bit) isn't bad either for now... plus all the LS really makes it easy. But thanks a lot for all the hints, makes it a lot easier if I have some numbers to look out for, such as the EHP (I'm at 550k right now, so "check" on that). I'll also take a more in-depth look at the D3rawr link you posted tonight once I'm home.
@Shad3slayer: I used Superstition yesterday which helped against being fury-starved. But I'm wondering the same... Skorn, no 5 piece IK, no fury passive... makes it quite difficult at times ;-) But I'm still learning and trying to find my best playstyle.
If you just want to kill trash mobs then go ahead and go the skorn- rend route. But its not flexible. Using this route means you have really slow attack speed so you're sprint/ww does little true damage (comparatively to dual wielding) and rend isnt good for elites (which is why ppl skip them with this set up). It's not a good set up for elites or ubers.
I've always preferred dual wielding, and I still do.
Shad3slayer's ehp numbers are pretty much what i recommend (500 resists, 50k life) minimum to get by without warcry. Some people get by with less but against difficult elites and areas, its gets hairy if you're lower than these figures.
As far as the LS amount, generally you want at least 5% but against trash mobs, 1 source of LS is fine.
Don't underestimate the power of Skorn and Frenzy. I mow down elites with this setup. Of course I have a little bit of attack speed on my gear to start. In super saiyan form, you can bring a single elite down fast and with a lifesteal skorn, you won't die. Add in the Smite rune and you can pretty much keep them perma stunned while you do it. Works well for ubers and most elite packs.
And 5 piece IK is very nice. If you can get good pieces for each slot then do it. You no longer lose fury when you're not in combat. Helps out when you have a slow 2 hander.
Helps to find an IK belt with Frenzy bonus. And if you're doing ubers, finding a stone of jordan with frenzy bonus also helps big time and you should be able to find one cheap.
im sorry but this sounds like terrible advice.
generally there is never a good reason to go full ik set, frenzy and skorn is a fairly strange combo, especially if you grab smite, if you want to be permastunning you want to be hitting fast, hence you should go dw.
frenzy and stacking frenzy % dmg bonus may be something to consider once the expansion goes live with all the barb changes, but as it stands right now it is a very weak ability.
the only real good advice here was suggesting SoJ for ubers/elites
you are free to play the game in any manner you see fit how ever and you like frenzy, keep using it. but suggesting it to fledgling barbs isn´t really doing them any favors.
Well then lets agree to disagree. There are more ways to play WW barb than going DW. I was just suggesting one of those ways. I understand you don't agree with me but that's ok. I use a skorn with frenzy and smite and having great results with it.
Good advice here, but I may as well toss in my thoughts as well. For gear (budget and otherwise), I'd suggest reading this thread: http://www.diablofan...d-items-better/ I'm sure it's a tad out of date and some of the pricing may have changed, but it should still give you a general idea. I also talk a little bit about IAS there and other things there which can be confusing to a new WW barb.
As a general rule, a Skorn build is going to be the cheaper way to go, and that lends itself strongly to Rend. My knowledge of prices is out of date, but something like this should be reasonably doable on a small budget:
- Skorn - strength - prioritize weapon damage range and choose two of crit damage, socket or Life Leech depending on if you want IK belt or WH
- Inna's pants - probably with vit, possibly with strength
- IK chest
- IK helm
- Crafted Shoulders of Strength - vit and all resist
- IK belt - (high str and vit) if using non-LL Skorn and you don't use the bloodlust passive, otherwise Witching Hour
- Crafted Bracers of Strength - crit chance and all resist, vit is nice too
- Zunimasa's boots - str
- IK gloves - crit damage
- Rings - crit chance and crit damage, and either all resist, str and/or vit (or avg damage only if it's underpriced since it's not as good with Skorn)
- Crafted Amulet of Strength - crit damage, crit chance and either all resist or vit (this is the best slot to focus on when you have extra essences and other slots are decent)
The appropriate breakpoint to hit with this build imho is at 18% total IAS from gear (assuming WoTB is up) which means picking up 9% IAS on both Inna's and WH (or somewhere else if not using WH, probably a ring). If you have the cash and feel the need for speed, the next breakpoints for a 1.0 speed Skorn will be at 29% (4 slots) and 42% (5 slots), but you're almost certainly better off focusing on other stats like crit chance / crit damage / strength / all resist (and vit if it's low).
I've recommended the following before as a bare-minimum for high MP farming (MP10 is very tough at these numbers, but doable), so scale down a little for lower MP farming:
400+ all resist
40k+ health
5000+ armor
10%+ melee damage reduction
5%+ lifesteal (you can get by on 3% most of the time, but sometimes that extra 2% helps a lot at higher MP)
24% movement speed (no more since it caps at 25%, possibly less though I think it's worthwhile to get 24%)
Also, as a general tip, focus on upping defense before upping damage since you can always move up in MP if your defense is higher, but if your damage outstrips your defense, it becomes very hard to maintain fury (though you can supplement survivability with skill choices if absolutely necessary).
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Also, as a general tip, focus on upping defense before upping damage since you can always move up in MP if your defense is higher, but if your damage outstrips your defense, it becomes very hard to maintain fury (though you can supplement survivability with skill choices if absolutely necessary).
Upping defense before upping DPS? If you go higher MP cause your defense already outstrips your damage it'll take forever to kill elite packs in the new MP. On the other hand improving your DPS directly improves your defense as well cause you heal more through LL and Blood Lust (especially assuming Skorn). Even if you only have 3% LL you can easily grab Bloodthirst as 3rd passive and have all the self-healing in the world.
The problem is fury generation. If everything dies in only a few tornado ticks, it's extremely difficult to keep WotB active since things die too quickly for your tornado ticks to trigger Into the Fray and in extreme cases, can even make it tough to generate enough fury to keep Sprint active. The normal solution to this is to raise the MP level, but if your defense isn't up to snuff so you can't raise the MP, the build basically stops functioning on the MP levels you can survive in.
None of the above should be taken to say that it's optimal to farm higher MP with sub-par DPS just because your defense can take it -- optimal MP will be primarily based on your killing speed, but your defense must be adequate to survive there or you can be in a position where no matter what MP you choose, the build doesn't really work.
tl;dr It's better to have the right balance, but if you're going to be out of whack, it's better to have too much defense than not enough relative to DPS.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Wow, just wow. Didn't expect this thread to grow into such an amazing discussion!
I understand gearing, playstyle, and reasoning for gear+skills much better now. It all makes sense ;-)
Keep on going, just a quick update: you did no only enlighten and convince me, but also my friends, so we're now 3 barbs WW'ing (all same skills and similar gear) on MP7 and having lots of fun. No desire to dump millions right now because we're happy with where we're at; but all the gear tips will come handy once we decide to step it up a notch (e.g., if it becomes boring at some point, which is likely to happen as I get bored quite easily with one build ;-)). Also, it "works" now although it's nowhere near perfect, but as this thread showed there are just soooooo many different ways of playing and gearing WW that I didn't consider and we'll just try out everything that's being discussed here, but it takes some time - I won't dismiss a spec just after 5 minutes. So I'll keep an eye on all your suggestions.
@Bagstone I'm glad we helped you guys. The fact alone that you can jump straight to MP7 without spending hundreds of millions on the AH shows why Barbs are OP right now (and why they are getting nerfed in RoS).
then why isn´t cm getting nerfed? spent like 30m or so on mine and she did mp 7-8 easy
i don´t think you have to spend hundres of millions to do mp7 with most chars. prolly doable with monk and wd as well. (guess it wont work on dh tho)
barb does get to mp10 cheeper than most chars to, ill agree on that^^
Don't worry, I wrote like a hundred times already that CMWW (in particularly CM) needs to be nerfed. I actually made all my 5 classes MP5-7 capable for a couple of dozen millions (between 10 and 70, can't really pinpoint it because I keep lots of unused stuff on my twinks). Yes, even DH; the key is to stack discipline. With 90 disc I never die.
But if you want to discuss this, I suggest we move this to a new thread into the specific class forum or create a thread in general forums. Let's not deviate further from the WW related discussion you created in this thread :-)
@tanis0 Thanx for clarifying, your point makes a lot more sense now and I agree. It's just that the EHP requirements are quite low cause of all the self healing via LL and Blood Lust. As long as you don't get 1-shot by charging bulls in Fields of Misery for example you're ok to farm that place EHP-wise (which is why Blood Lust is going the way of the dodo in RoS)
It's been a while since I played, so the market may have changed to the point where this doesn't happen too often anymore. However, there was a time where I had this problem and I've seen a lot of other people with it on the forums as well. Also, it depends on how many deaths you are comfortable with (my limit is about 2 per hour but even that annoys me) as they can really cut into your XP / loot per hour.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
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Although my main is a wizard, I have always considered my barb to be my #2 char. He's now almost a year old but just keeps sitting in a corner because we somehow never found to each other. I've tried many different builds (for a while, HotA would be fun but it wore out quickly for me), but mostly I just want WW to work - because for one or two seasons, WW barb was my main in D2 as well, so there must be a way...
I've got some questions about general game play first.
1) Group composition: Which classes go well with a WW barb? Please don't say WD, because that's the class none of my friends wants to play. Their ranking is kind of DH>monk>wiz>barb in terms of class preference, but we're all flexible (to some extent).
2) Rend: Obviously, coming from Archon, Rend is alienating. It seems like you leave all mobs behind alive. I've heard of WW builds without Rend, but almost every guide has Rend as main damage spell... any recommendations for a build that works differently here (i.e., I see stuff dying)?
3) NV5: One thing I find in every WW guide these days is that "you'll skip elites since it takes too long to kill them". Yet, WW barbs are the most efficient class for paragon farming. And the impact of NV5 on XP is so huge; so how does this work? You spent a few minutes to kill the first 5 packs and then skip elites or what?
Now, for those of you who're wondering what my char looks like... I'm switching a lot of gear and skills as I've read many guides (here and on the official forums) and tried several things, but nothing really felt "good" so far. Here's my current work-in-progress. Note that I have a full IK set (although it has low DPS), some jewelry, and some 1H weapons, but all in the same very low budget. I really don't need advice that is more suitable to 300k DPS MP10 barbs, because I know that's not where I belong. I'm fine if this works on lower MPs first.
I know it's a noob barb, but hey, he's been neglected by me for a year now, so don't be to hard on him. So, some further questions...
4) There's some nice advice on MP/EHP/DPS for Archon, is there something similar for barbs for lower MPs? I was surprised to see that my barb has 550k EHP because I'm a one-shot for some elite packs... but it's also hard to strike the EHP/DPS balance.
5) I'm really torn between Skorn and one hand weapons... but the Skorn gives a lot of DPS plus a huge LS bonus; would you recommend this or should I rather switch to 2x 1H with my extremely low budget?
Thanks!
@estereth: I don't have a "budget" at all right now, I just want to see how it works, and then I'll see how much I'm willing to spend. But I don't have hundreds of millions ;-)
@lurker124: Welcome to my world, I kind of hate efficiency as well, but we're all a bit worried about the upcoming paragon system and are kind of driven to farm paragon XP. But if it's not fun to play, I ain't playing it :-) I had a HotA barb for a while and didn't like it too much, so I guess I'm fine with Skorn+trash. I switched passive to Superstition now, thanks for the Brawler heads-up.
@Meloku: Thanks, lots of helpful hints there. It's been quite some time since I could just "improve my DPS and don't worry about EHP". I guess that's something only valid for barbs
I did a run with a friend of mine (who's also trying to get his barb working), and after some testing and fiddling around it actually worked out quite well (on MP7). I'll see how things work out in the long run, if it's worth to dump more money into the barb. But from all I've read, it's almost impossible to progress beyond MP7/MP8 anyways (I keep reading that MP10 WW barb requires 2b, which is not my league ;-)).
As far as builds. I dont use rend either. I dual wield so its not that effective for me. I run this set up for farming:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#ZhPUQR!ZYg!ZZcZZY
and for ubers I run this set up:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WZPQkR!ZYd!cZcZcY
For farming, I got the initial 5 NV, then skipped elites the rest of the way. Although with my farm spec, elites didn't really take that long so I didn't gain that much from skipping them. People that run rend as their main output are the ones that tend to skip elites as rend takes a long time to down them. This is of course on high mp.
The advantage of Skorn is rend. That's pretty much it. Everything else, be it WW or Hota, dual wielding, will out damage it.
In general, the Rend topic might have resolved itself, I was worried about "leaving all the mobs behind alive" that wouldn't go well together with other characters, but it's even a bigger problem with WW itself on that matter.
@estereth: I'll look into Litany once I decide to dump some gold into my barb. I have a no-LS EF, but kinda feel now that Skorn might be better for me. But I'll see, thanks for the advice.
@Elendiro: I had to laugh when Moldran said "all you need is a paragon 100 barb". /facepalm. Well, but at least this video indeed contained some helpful advice for gearing, such as "don't get Rend on IK belt". Haven't thought about that (though I'm not going 5pc IK anyways). And thanks for the hint with Overpower - it's on button 1 ;-)
@Shad3slayer: Thank you!!! That is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for (the EHP/DPS numbers and stuff). And about the weapons - it all sounds like a Skorn is the way to go because it always has insanely high average damage. But I don't know why you say "LL on MH". I mean, shouldn't MH all be about high average damage (thus sacrificing LS and get that on OH)? I have some 1h weapons, with and without LS, but I feel that my LS Skorn tops all of them (gain ~10k DPS and have huge LS)...
@MrHums: Well, if I don't get LS on my weapon, I need my LS passive, so I can't use Brawler. I can't have it all ;-) I'll also look into a non-LS Skorn, but to be honest the one I have (found it on one of my mules, I'm sometimes too lazy to put stuff on the AH and it's worth quite a bit) isn't bad either for now... plus all the LS really makes it easy. But thanks a lot for all the hints, makes it a lot easier if I have some numbers to look out for, such as the EHP (I'm at 550k right now, so "check" on that). I'll also take a more in-depth look at the D3rawr link you posted tonight once I'm home.
@Shad3slayer: I used Superstition yesterday which helped against being fury-starved. But I'm wondering the same... Skorn, no 5 piece IK, no fury passive... makes it quite difficult at times ;-) But I'm still learning and trying to find my best playstyle.
I've always preferred dual wielding, and I still do.
Shad3slayer's ehp numbers are pretty much what i recommend (500 resists, 50k life) minimum to get by without warcry. Some people get by with less but against difficult elites and areas, its gets hairy if you're lower than these figures.
As far as the LS amount, generally you want at least 5% but against trash mobs, 1 source of LS is fine.
And 5 piece IK is very nice. If you can get good pieces for each slot then do it. You no longer lose fury when you're not in combat. Helps out when you have a slow 2 hander.
Helps to find an IK belt with Frenzy bonus. And if you're doing ubers, finding a stone of jordan with frenzy bonus also helps big time and you should be able to find one cheap.
Well then lets agree to disagree. There are more ways to play WW barb than going DW. I was just suggesting one of those ways. I understand you don't agree with me but that's ok. I use a skorn with frenzy and smite and having great results with it.
As a general rule, a Skorn build is going to be the cheaper way to go, and that lends itself strongly to Rend. My knowledge of prices is out of date, but something like this should be reasonably doable on a small budget:
- Skorn - strength - prioritize weapon damage range and choose two of crit damage, socket or Life Leech depending on if you want IK belt or WH
- Inna's pants - probably with vit, possibly with strength
- IK chest
- IK helm
- Crafted Shoulders of Strength - vit and all resist
- IK belt - (high str and vit) if using non-LL Skorn and you don't use the bloodlust passive, otherwise Witching Hour
- Crafted Bracers of Strength - crit chance and all resist, vit is nice too
- Zunimasa's boots - str
- IK gloves - crit damage
- Rings - crit chance and crit damage, and either all resist, str and/or vit (or avg damage only if it's underpriced since it's not as good with Skorn)
- Crafted Amulet of Strength - crit damage, crit chance and either all resist or vit (this is the best slot to focus on when you have extra essences and other slots are decent)
The appropriate breakpoint to hit with this build imho is at 18% total IAS from gear (assuming WoTB is up) which means picking up 9% IAS on both Inna's and WH (or somewhere else if not using WH, probably a ring). If you have the cash and feel the need for speed, the next breakpoints for a 1.0 speed Skorn will be at 29% (4 slots) and 42% (5 slots), but you're almost certainly better off focusing on other stats like crit chance / crit damage / strength / all resist (and vit if it's low).
I've recommended the following before as a bare-minimum for high MP farming (MP10 is very tough at these numbers, but doable), so scale down a little for lower MP farming:
The problem is fury generation. If everything dies in only a few tornado ticks, it's extremely difficult to keep WotB active since things die too quickly for your tornado ticks to trigger Into the Fray and in extreme cases, can even make it tough to generate enough fury to keep Sprint active. The normal solution to this is to raise the MP level, but if your defense isn't up to snuff so you can't raise the MP, the build basically stops functioning on the MP levels you can survive in.
None of the above should be taken to say that it's optimal to farm higher MP with sub-par DPS just because your defense can take it -- optimal MP will be primarily based on your killing speed, but your defense must be adequate to survive there or you can be in a position where no matter what MP you choose, the build doesn't really work.
tl;dr It's better to have the right balance, but if you're going to be out of whack, it's better to have too much defense than not enough relative to DPS.
I understand gearing, playstyle, and reasoning for gear+skills much better now. It all makes sense ;-)
Keep on going, just a quick update: you did no only enlighten and convince me, but also my friends, so we're now 3 barbs WW'ing (all same skills and similar gear) on MP7 and having lots of fun. No desire to dump millions right now because we're happy with where we're at; but all the gear tips will come handy once we decide to step it up a notch (e.g., if it becomes boring at some point, which is likely to happen as I get bored quite easily with one build ;-)). Also, it "works" now although it's nowhere near perfect, but as this thread showed there are just soooooo many different ways of playing and gearing WW that I didn't consider and we'll just try out everything that's being discussed here, but it takes some time - I won't dismiss a spec just after 5 minutes. So I'll keep an eye on all your suggestions.
Thanks a lot to all of you! :-)
Ha. Bagstone.
Don't worry, I wrote like a hundred times already that CMWW (in particularly CM) needs to be nerfed. I actually made all my 5 classes MP5-7 capable for a couple of dozen millions (between 10 and 70, can't really pinpoint it because I keep lots of unused stuff on my twinks). Yes, even DH; the key is to stack discipline. With 90 disc I never die.
But if you want to discuss this, I suggest we move this to a new thread into the specific class forum or create a thread in general forums. Let's not deviate further from the WW related discussion you created in this thread :-)
It's been a while since I played, so the market may have changed to the point where this doesn't happen too often anymore. However, there was a time where I had this problem and I've seen a lot of other people with it on the forums as well. Also, it depends on how many deaths you are comfortable with (my limit is about 2 per hour but even that annoys me) as they can really cut into your XP / loot per hour.