Nerf to WotB:ToC what are us Barbs going to do now? (New build to tryout)

  • #21
    Quote from dolynick

    This all seems like premature over-reacting. They haven't even said when or how they MIGHT change it; just that they've been looking at it and it's on their wishlist to address at some point down the road. It's not 1.08. It may not even be 1.09. Any change is at least 3 months away yet.

    Secondly, MP10 without WotB is perfectly doable for a barb. I manage just fine with multiple builds. It's slower sure (ToC adds about a x1.5-x2 eDPS multiplier ontop of everything), but that's the idea behind WotB in the first place. I personally don't think you're ready for MP10 (and shouldn't be in there) if you can't at least manage it without ToC propping you up. WotB should be about going into overdrive mode when needed, not a crutch to make the MP level even feasible for you. I have way more respect to a War Cry using HotA barb I see trudging his way through an MP10 game than I do for most of the raging idiots I usually see running off 3 screens ahead because if they lose their wrath they can't stay alive.

    I can see perfectly well where Travis Day and the dev team are coming from. WotB, well ToC specifically, is just too alluring. That extra x1.5 or x2 eDPS without the hassle of Frozen or Nightmare is just so hard to pass up. You do feel like you're not optimal when you don't use it. Without perma-wrath though I may drop it entirely. I have little use for a skill that's active 15 seconds out of 120. The other runes don't really interest me much because of that. I think they should increase the duration to at least 30 seconds and cut the cooldown to 90 seconds, for starters. I'm not sure what to suggest for ToC itself aside from just increasing the fury require for each second of extension.

    My biggest worry about all of this is that they change Into the Fray instead of WotB-ToC itself. If they do that then they mess with so much more than just the permawrath issue that they seem to be targetting.

    -dolynick


    Couldnt agree more +1
  • #22
    No one know how they are going to nerf Wotb, yet, but cc is the main benefit of Wotb, Toc. if your build uses it to stop cc and you have a period of time with no cc reduction, like 40s or more as an example, your not going to use it unless you can kill a pack in the given time you have it on for. That depend on your gear, and dictates what mp level you run. I do not see the point of running two skills with cc reduction, like using Wotb and leap.
    Just an idea but what about if Wotb was on a timer of say one minute as an example, and if you turned it off during the one minutes the timer would cool down, that way if forces you to turn it off and kill white trash with out it and not have it on all the time. And only engage it once there is a pack to kill, or to get out of CC. You could also have it so if you hit the one minute max you would get punished and have a 20 second period where you would not use it. It would become available at 40 second on the cool down. That way you could use all of the runes of Wotb and not just Toc..
  • #23
    Quote from Koboldius

    1: Dude becaue we have different opinions on that topic doesnt make my state wrong.
    2: The 200% were just a random number i came up with.
    3: Toc feels alot more broken than insanity in its current states.
    4: Why do you always speak about trash


    What difference does an opinion make when math proves it wrong? If you want to make outrageous claims like the insanity buff then atleast mention that you haven't given it more than a split second of thought. TOC provides the wrong kind of power up which is why they want to change the mechanic, end of story.

    I'm actually doing the opposite of 'always talking about trash' because its necessary since the general perception seems to be that a Skorn can only be used for this trash farming phenomenon. Before it there wasn't a single thread about even trying it for six months. Something you wouldn't have a clue about since you only recently started playing again.
  • #24
    Quote from Strafir

    What difference does an opinion make when math proves it wrong? If you want to make outrageous claims like the insanity buff then atleast mention that you haven't given it more than a split second of thought. TOC provides the wrong kind of power up which is why they want to change the mechanic, end of story.

    I'm actually doing the opposite of 'always talking about trash' because its necessary since the general perception seems to be that a Skorn can only be used for this trash farming phenomenon. Before it there wasn't a single thread about even trying it for six months. Something you wouldn't have a clue about since you only recently started playing again.


    Well if you couldnt see that i exaggerated the number of 200% then my bad... Maybe it is due to the fact that english is not my native language.
    And why do you say that i only recently started playing again? My barb has better gear than your 260k dps barb lol

    I really hope your not the same kind of person like moldran that puts out his calculator and calculates for example the exp gain per hour after he farmed 5 minutes in an area xD
  • #25
    Quote from Koboldius

    Well if you couldnt see that i exaggerated the number of 200% then my bad... Maybe it is due to the fact that english is not my native language.
    And why do you say that i only recently started playing again? My barb has better gear than your 260k dps barb lol


    Because you said so yourself in your first few posts.

    Quote from Koboldius

    Well i already wasted enough time with this thread. Wish you all a nice day and im back playing d3. HF


    I don't have any good comebacks for that last remark other than please do show.
  • #26
    Quote from dolynick


    My biggest worry about all of this is that they change Into the Fray instead of WotB-ToC itself. If they do that then they mess with so much more than just the permawrath issue that they seem to be targetting.

    -dolynick


    Into the Fray with WotB-ToC seems ok, but when you combine them with sprint:RLtW it becomes quite messed up. Tbh in my mind its sprint:RLtW that is the broken skill.
  • #27
    Quote from zimira

    Quote from dolynick

    My biggest worry about all of this is that they change Into the Fray instead of WotB-ToC itself. If they do that then they mess with so much more than just the permawrath issue that they seem to be targetting.

    -dolynick


    Into the Fray with WotB-ToC seems ok, but when you combine them with sprint:RLtW it becomes quite messed up. Tbh in my mind its sprint:RLtW that is the broken skill.


    You actually have a very good point. Without damaging tornadoes fury gain would be significantly decreased to a point where it wouldn't technically be impossible to keep the buff up permanently but the your coordination and sacrifice would have to be much greater than it is now, even justifiable. Even for dual wielders the choice between TOC and Insanity wouldn't be as obvious.
  • #28
    Quote from Strafir

    Quote from Koboldius

    Well if you couldnt see that i exaggerated the number of 200% then my bad... Maybe it is due to the fact that english is not my native language.
    And why do you say that i only recently started playing again? My barb has better gear than your 260k dps barb lol


    Because you said so yourself in your first few posts.

    Quote from Koboldius

    Well i already wasted enough time with this thread. Wish you all a nice day and im back playing d3. HF


    I don't have any good comebacks for that last remark other than, please do show.


    I really dont know why it would matter, why we have to compare our e-peen and we already are way offtopic here. It was also you who made this personal. But if you really want to see my barb. Here you go:

    The post from me that you quoted meant that i would continue my current run. I play with 2 monitors and read the forum on the left monitor. It may sounded awkward because as i said english is not my first language and i cant articulate that good as i would like sometimes.
  • #29
    I ran Insanity when I first started and was having trouble with sustainability for ToC. It's fine for dealing with CC, though I'd prefer a less severe cooldown (it's not worth taking the passive). The main issue imho is that DPS takes a pretty significant nosedive without ToC. I haven't spent enough time playing other classes to know whether this will bring us in line or put us at a disadvantage for equivalent levels of gear, but I am getting a monk up to speed just in case. :)
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #30
    Quote from Strafir

    Quote from zimira

    Quote from dolynick

    My biggest worry about all of this is that they change Into the Fray instead of WotB-ToC itself. If they do that then they mess with so much more than just the permawrath issue that they seem to be targetting.

    -dolynick


    Into the Fray with WotB-ToC seems ok, but when you combine them with sprint:RLtW it becomes quite messed up. Tbh in my mind its sprint:RLtW that is the broken skill.


    You actually have a very good point. Without damaging tornadoes fury gain would be significantly decreased to a point where it wouldn't technically be impossible to keep the buff up permanently but the your coordination and sacrifice would have to be much greater than it is now, even justifiable. Even for dual wielders the choice between TOC and Insanity wouldn't be as obvious.


    The thrive on Chaos issue is bigger than just WW+RwtW though. Yeah, they could cut the proc rate on tornadoes again and leave the rest unchanged, and that might solve the issues for the Blender builds. You'd still have the same problem with perma-wrath HotA though and that's even easier to maintain than WW+RwtW.

    Changing ToC to require 30, 35, 40 (whatever number works for their "ideal" uptime extension) fury gain for each second is the best way to stop permawrath the way they're talking without breaking current builds the way they stand. Builds will all still work, they just won't have 100% WotB uptime.

    If you mess with Into the Fray, or the proc rate on RwtW (although this one wouldn't be the end of the world) then you damage the ability to do basic WW+RwtW outside of WotB too. HotA outside of WtoB is also damaged if you mess with fury gain from Into the Fray. It doesn't sound like either of those builds in and of themselves are what the devs want to change so I'd prefer if they modified ToC itself to achieve this.

    -dolynick
  • #31
    Quote from Koboldius

    I really dont know why it would matter, why we have to compare our e-peen and we already are way offtopic here. It was also you who made this personal. But if you really want to see my barb. Here you go: http://www.diablopro...Memphis/8701118


    Remind me how I made this personal and a pissing contest about gear? Might aswell do it ingame while we play a few rounds of a3.

    Quote from dolynick

    The thrive on Chaos issue is bigger than just WW+RwtW though. Yeah, they could cut the proc rate on tornadoes again and leave the rest unchanged, and that might solve the issues for the Blender builds. You'd still have the same problem with perma-wrath HotA though and that's even easier to maintain than WW+RwtW.

    Changing ToC to require 30, 35, 40 (whatever number works for their "ideal" uptime extension) fury gain for each second is the best way to stop permawrath the way they're talking without breaking current builds the way they stand. Builds will all still work, they just won't have 100% WotB uptime.

    If you mess with Into the Fray, or the proc rate on RwtW (although this one wouldn't be the end of the world) then you damage the ability to do basic WW+RwtW outside of WotB too. HotA outside of WtoB is also damaged if you mess with fury gain from Into the Fray. It doesn't sound like either of those builds in and of themselves are what the devs want to change so I'd prefer if they modified ToC itself to achieve this.


    I agree that messing with Into the Fray is out of the question since the amount of fury you gain with bad gear doesn't even begin to cover the fueling required for high cost abilities like hota or seismic slam. I must shoot down your theory about it somehow being easier to keep the buff running with a build that has a main nuke like hota. Sure it can produce a full globe of fury with a single swing versus a swarm of monsters but it also destroys them really quick and you can't spend your fury in steps equivalent to how you can with sprint.

    RLTW is partially to blame for the overflow of fury that allows geared players to overuse abilities like hota without thinking it through properly.
  • #32

    The thrive on Chaos issue is bigger than just WW+RwtW though. Yeah, they could cut the proc rate on tornadoes again and leave the rest unchanged, and that might solve the issues for the Blender builds. You'd still have the same problem with perma-wrath HotA though and that's even easier to maintain than WW+RwtW.

    Changing ToC to require 30, 35, 40 (whatever number works for their "ideal" uptime extension) fury gain for each second is the best way to stop permawrath the way they're talking without breaking current builds the way they stand. Builds will all still work, they just won't have 100% WotB uptime.

    If you mess with Into the Fray, or the proc rate on RwtW (although this one wouldn't be the end of the world) then you damage the ability to do basic WW+RwtW outside of WotB too. HotA outside of WtoB is also damaged if you mess with fury gain from Into the Fray. It doesn't sound like either of those builds in and of themselves are what the devs want to change so I'd prefer if they modified ToC itself to achieve this.

    -dolynick


    Yes. I also think it is the best do adjust the fury spent numbers for toc to make it harder to keep it up. I also thought about reducing the cc immunity to say 50% reduced cc but this wouldnt actually help because it would not help to make other runes better :D

    Remind me how I made this personal and a pissing contest about gear? Might aswell do it ingame while we play a few rounds of a3.

    Well i think that we can agree that we dont get on well with each other. Lets just keep it that way :) Gl finding some good legendarys though!
  • #33
    why can't they just let me enjoy the fvcking game? If they want other to try other skill, improve other skills.

    WOTC and Archon have 2 minutes cooldown. If they are going to change it and make it relevant to other skills, then the cooldown has to come down.
  • #34
    My Hardcore barb will cry if they make this change...

    Gearing to the point of perma wrath is actually not that simple in hardcore, has taken me quite a while and I'm still not 100% there as it requires some tradeoffs (dropping shield... something I'm not quite ready to do).

    But... I understand that Hardcore is just one part of the game and they need to look at the game as a whole. Considering I can't perma-wrath now it won't really impact me all that much anyway. But it's been something I've been slowly working towards as a goal.
  • #35
    Quote from Koboldius

    Remind me how I made this personal and a pissing contest about gear? Might aswell do it ingame while we play a few rounds of a3.

    Well i think that we can agree that we dont get on well with each other. Lets just keep it that way :) Gl finding some good legendarys though!


    Dodging bullets like Neo in matrix. Fine whatever.
  • #36
    Quote from Strafir

    I agree that messing with Into the Fray is out of the question since the amount of fury you gain with bad gear doesn't even begin to cover the fueling required for high cost abilities like hota or seismic slam. I must shoot down your theory about it somehow being easier to keep the buff running with a build that has a main nuke like hota. Sure it can produce a full globe of fury with a single swing versus a swarm of monsters but it also destroys them really quick and you can't spend your fury in steps equivalent to how you can with sprint.

    RLTW is partially to blame for the overflow of fury that allows geared players to overuse abilities like hota without thinking it through properly.


    I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Perma WotB with HotA is pretty much as simple as activating ToC and then holding down the HotA button. I may run out of fury even but 1 normal swing in 3-4 still easily keeps my WotB countdown from dropping. No RwtW required for permawrath with HotA in my build. They could nerf RwtW to 0 proc rate and I'd still be able to keep WotB permanently with HotA.

    I say it's easier with HotA because it is, litereally, holding one button down. With WW+RwtW, you have to actively spam other abilities to spend fury to keep WotB from counting down. That by definition is more difficult by virtue of more button pressing.

    You do bring up a good point though. WW+RwtW can currently generate an excess of fury while not spending it fast enough to keep WotB refreshed. Simply increasing ToC may throw off the balance between the Blender build and others in regards to keeping ToC uptime. So yeah, I still say increase the ToC fury cost (though possibly just a little) and a proc cut to RwtW might be called for too. I'm less accepting of that because it will affect other aspects of the build outside of WtoB which I would like to see them avoid.

    -dolynick
  • #37
    I wouldn't mind if RwtW got nerfed to 0 outside WotB as well, it is a bit silly that a movement skill is one of the most effective fury builders and does decent damage. But considering the outcry last time they nerfed RwtW I am not sure Blizz dares to do that.
  • #38
    I feel like this whole argument kind of misses the point. It's not that keeping any buff up 100% of the time through gearing and skill selection is bad, it's that doing this feels mandatory because the buff is so strong and the other runes aren't nearly as good as the ability to maintain 100% uptime. They could solve the whole issue just by moving some of the buffs such as attack speed, crit chance and dodge out of the main skill and into runes other than ToC. Now all ToC would give you is run speed and CC immunity. Some builds would still take it while others might prefer to use other runes for larger defensive or offensive bonuses, or other skills altogether.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #39
    Quote from dolynick

    I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Perma WotB with HotA is pretty much as simple as activating ToC and then holding down the HotA button. I may run out of fury even but 1 normal swing in 3-4 still easily keeps my WotB countdown from dropping. No RwtW required for permawrath with HotA in my build. They could nerf RwtW to 0 proc rate and I'd still be able to keep WotB permanently with HotA.

    I say it's easier with HotA because it is, litereally, holding one button down. With WW+RwtW, you have to actively spam other abilities to spend fury to keep WotB from counting down. That by definition is more difficult by virtue of more button pressing.


    You're talking about a scenario like ubers where there is a boss that can soak constant damage for minutes without breaks. You could keep WOTB up with frenzy if you wanted because there is constantly something to hit. I was talking about a scenario where you are farming normally and there aren't large packs waiting around every corner because that's what hota builds need when your deeps grows high enough.

    The difference is undeniable if you play on a reasonable monster power with one very hard hitting ability or a bunch of small ones hitting multiple times. Both are doable but the hard hitting guy has to make some weird maneuvers and lose speed in the process which I look at as justifiable since he gains the permanent immunity.
  • #40
    Double post sorry, ignore this.
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