Nerf to WotB:ToC what are us Barbs going to do now? (New build to tryout)

  • #1
    Due to TRAVIS DAY!!! Nerfing the king of barb builds this is my response with a new build. Rend Pulverize Move (RPM) designed for killing elites and trash mobs fast. Getting faster clear times than with WW.
    (I'm all for the change, bring it on!)


    Let me know what you think and things you might change.

    All stats shown in the chat are unbuffed, buffed tick rates with Wrath would be 30/26/23/18/15

    Jump to 3:33 to skip my rant :)


    You can check out my Diablo III videos here
    https://www.youtube.com/user/CORExpertGaming?feature=mhee
  • #2
    Cool stuff dude, I like the positive attitude.
    And you're right, we must rise whenever we fall. We barbarians don't cry.

    Although I'm a barb and having no perma-WotB would severely decrease our godly stride through inferno, I must admit objectively that Travis Day is right in nerfing this skill.
    Other people might say it's a bad idea and blizz should buff others too but how exactly?! The only way to balancing efficiency through buffing every other class is by give to all of them a similar skill and that won't fit in the design philosophy.
    Therefore nerfing archon and WotB would bring everybody pretty much on the same level (with minor exceptions, like DHs).

    Balancing the game is not about buffing, sometimes is about nerfing also.
    And won't worry, it's in diablo's history for players to always find new and efficient ways to farm regardless of nerfs, broken skills, ecc.
  • #3
    There's actually many builds I've tried that I love that don't include WoTb, and whenever itemization comes out ( possible permanent CoTa pets) there will be even more builds that will be fun.

    This nerf reminds me specifically to the nether tentacles nerf to DH's months and months back (along with the smoke screen nerf). My main was a DH and I along with everyone else used nether tentacles, what wasn't to love? A spender that cost 10 hatred out of 125-150, did AOE as it passes through, had life steal built in, and could hit even small targets multiple times was plain awesome. You could reliably get it to do 450% damage to multiple targets, and you can spam the hell out of it. And when I heard about the nerf to it? I was extremely happy. A skill that's so awesome means you just feel gimped if you don't use it, and that's the case with WoTb ToC.

    You can argue that if you don't want to use it just don't, but that doesn't hold much water in a game where efficiency is everything. A dodge, movement speed, immune to CC, attack speed buff that you could keep up almost 100% of the time? Why WOULND'T you ever take that?

    I personally propose to keep the thrive on chaos rune, but make the added time cap out at 30 seconds for the total buff, while still keeping the CD at two minutes (and I'd be for the same on archon). I vote for this because if I'm doing my whirlwind build I'd still take this rune for the added CC immune and movement speed time compared to the 15 seconds of the other runes. But if I went a hota build, I'd take the insanity rune to burn down champs on MP10.

    In the end it's a much needed nerf; It's a crutch at the moment, and nerfing it will help open up other builds.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #4
    I'm kind of happy about the change. I did try different kinds of builds months ago and i did enjoy them, but i always came back to a ToC build. Sometimes, i really have to be forced to change my playstyle to something else. Hell i'm farming a3 for 10 months now, so i welcome the 1.0.8 changes and the upcoming ToC nerf.

    I'll be using a similar build, with Marathon and small variations, but the base will be sprint/into the fray/HotA/rend. The one you are using is very solid.

    It seems to me that DW will work better on lower MPs (where Rend still does enough dmg), but a strong 2h on high MPs. Also might depend if you kill elites or skip.
  • #5
    Wotb:toc is needed above Mp7-8 for most barbs doing 200k unbuffed dps. so blizzard has a choice, either nerf it and have allot of pissed off people using barbs and loose more people playing diablo, because that is what is going to happen like it or not. Because no one wants to sell most of there gear to rebuild a character again and loose money on doing that. My example is this, try using a build with any of the other runes of Wotb, and see how you go in mp8 and above. You will die very very quickly once you can not get out of jailer, frozen, or fear, especially when there is a ranged pack. You need to survive for 105 seconds, if you use another rune, lets see how long you last in mp8 with no wrath, you wont, so if blizzard nerfs Wotb:Toc you may as well take it completely out of the game as far as top end barbs go, year sure you can survive on lower levels where you can take being jailed and take some damage and keep going. How would you deal with two or three packs together on mp 7? There would be no point to using it. I know you will all go use something else like furious charge, No don't want to, i have a build that not may people use, a traditional WW but i use seismic slam and only use WW to get out of being surrounded. This build will not work at all if there is no WotbToc. I have tired, i would like to use insanity, or slaugher, but like i said, once it wares off you die. 95% people can not kill an mp 10 pack in 15 second, so once it wares of you get jailed instantly and die, and then your left hiding in a corner crying for 105 seconds, until you get Wotb back.
    I have an answer which is much more appealing and still allows barbs to use the rune. Either reduce the cool down allot like to 40 seconds or Half the effectiveness of it or more. So you only get 5% crit 10% dodge, attackspeed and movement, or have allot of people selling all there gear and uninstalling the game!! and that is not what diablo need right now, but it is what will happen.
  • #6
    Quote from Franna403

    Wotb:toc is needed above Mp7-8 for most barbs doing 200k unbuffed dps.


    Wrong. Didn't finish reading the whole post, just please, please don't start a discussion this way. You'll only get bashed.


    - you can get out of CC or avoid frozen with leap and charge (which resets its CD easily), so that point is invalid. if you dont like those, just find a different ability that helps you
    - you are talking like they are removing ToC, but they are just redesigning it so you won't be able to keep it up at all times. you can still use it and probably have a pretty decent uptime
    - I can survive MP10 just fine w/o WotB with not much higher difficulty than with.
    - other classes don't have permanent CC immunity and do just fine

    What happened to gamers being able to adapt?
    I think you should try it yourself man and may be just give it more than 10mins. If you never really played without ToC, you simply aren't used to it, that's all.
    GL
  • #7
    I don't get why players already worry and post threads on various forums with titles like "what are us Barbs going to do now". It's just a speculated change and at the rate the d3 devs are pushing out new features WOTB is safe for another year probably.

    The plain WOTB buff is rather weak if you look at the alternatives but it lets players drool through content because of the immunity it provides which is a problem. If the plan really is to block players from gaining a permanent benefit then its pretty clear that the whole TOC rune will get a redesign, and what's even more likely is that devs will realize how crap everything else aside from Insanity is and redesign them too. WOTB is one of the core features of any high MP build and if something as drastic as this is done, you can bet your ass something even better is coming.

    Learning what playing a melee without the immunity is great but don't be all hysterical before we have all the facts.
  • #8
    Quote from Strafir

    I don't get why players already worry and post threads on various forums with titles like "what are us Barbs going to do now". It's just a speculated change and at the rate the d3 devs are pushing out new features WOTB is safe for another year probably.

    But then what would they make youtube videos about? #efame
  • #9
    Quote from Strafir

    I don't get why players already worry and post threads on various forums with titles like "what are us Barbs going to do now". It's just a speculated change and at the rate the d3 devs are pushing out new features WOTB is safe for another year probably.


    I don't see any harm in it if it's not a whining thread, rather something constructive. The OP made it sound almost positive :P
    It's a speculative response to a speculated change. Once we hear the real, detailed news, we just adjust what we already have figured out. Might turn out ToC will still be the best thing, even with lower uptime. We will see, but some ppl like to be prepared and that's point of these threads. For me at least.
  • #10
    Quote from Franna403

    Wotb:toc is needed above Mp7-8 for most barbs doing 200k unbuffed dps. so blizzard has a choice, either nerf it and have allot of pissed off people using barbs and loose more people playing diablo, because that is what is going to happen like it or not. Because no one wants to sell most of there gear to rebuild a character again and loose money on doing that. My example is this, try using a build with any of the other runes of Wotb, and see how you go in mp8 and above. You will die very very quickly once you can not get out of jailer, frozen, or fear, especially when there is a ranged pack. You need to survive for 105 seconds, if you use another rune, lets see how long you last in mp8 with no wrath, you wont, so if blizzard nerfs Wotb:Toc you may as well take it completely out of the game as far as top end barbs go, year sure you can survive on lower levels where you can take being jailed and take some damage and keep going. How would you deal with two or three packs together on mp 7? There would be no point to using it. I know you will all go use something else like furious charge, No don't want to, i have a build that not may people use, a traditional WW but i use seismic slam and only use WW to get out of being surrounded. This build will not work at all if there is no WotbToc. I have tired, i would like to use insanity, or slaugher, but like i said, once it wares off you die. 95% people can not kill an mp 10 pack in 15 second, so once it wares of you get jailed instantly and die, and then your left hiding in a corner crying for 105 seconds, until you get Wotb back.
    I have an answer which is much more appealing and still allows barbs to use the rune. Either reduce the cool down allot like to 40 seconds or Half the effectiveness of it or more. So you only get 5% crit 10% dodge, attackspeed and movement, or have allot of people selling all there gear and uninstalling the game!! and that is not what diablo need right now, but it is what will happen.


    What the hell are you talking about? Please don't go around saying you represent the 'top end' barbs, because clearly you don't. I very often use a hybrid hota build, on mp10, WITHOUT WoTb at all, to farm champ packs and keys. It's actually not that hard.

    Edit; I forgot to ask, do you have the data to show that "many" people will quit the game and unistall because of this nerf? I very, very much doubt it.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #11
    Yes sure you can use different abilities, like furious charge and leap, that is obvious, but use another rune on WotB and see how you go on higher MP levels. Your missing the point i am making, if you use WW with HOTA, or Seismic slam, you will be forced to drop Wotb for F-charge or leap. Wotb will become an ability that no one will use, if you are left with a 105s cool down.
  • #12
    Quote from Franna403

    Wotb:toc is needed above Mp7-8 for most barbs doing 200k unbuffed dps. so blizzard has a choice, either nerf it and have allot of pissed off people using barbs and loose more people playing diablo, because that is what is going to happen like it or not. Because no one wants to sell most of there gear to rebuild a character again and loose money on doing that.


    Why would anyone want to rebuild?
    If they nerf ToC will it mean that barbs will search any other stats than strength, cc, chd, all res, vitality?!
    What will they chose instead? :-)

    WotB is not really the key to survive high MPs, you can do fine without it up all the time.
    Barbs will have their killing speed slightly decreased but they'll be fine. It's healthy for the game, which is collectively far more important because people will play other builds as well, more will even start to have fun playing the game and the farming speed between barbs and the other classes will be pretty much leveled and that will make a lot of people happy.
    ...and ofcourse there will be whiners, rage quitters and haters. Nothing new there.
    Can't play god mode ON all the time boys. :))
  • #13
    Pros of wotb:toc:
    - CC immunity/run speed buff
    - added dps
    - OP Looks :P
    - no cooldown if done right and adds to stuff to do when playing the class, so keeps you busy with something to do (not on mp10).

    In general i dont like nerfs from blizzard cause they dont seem to be well balanced or in general its like a coin-toss they do it right or they do it completely wrong. Hence thats my dislike to nerfs, sure if you outgear the content any combo of skills works and hence any changes to wotb would not affect well geared warriors but the rest. People bored with wotb:toc can at any time use some other build. So personally i like wotb:toc/WW build and instead of seeing it getting nerfed i would welcome the possibility of under-used skills to be upgraded to more be usable.

    I listed the pros above and as i understand it the biggest benefit of wotb is cc immunity, to put it into perspective my problem with the possibility of it being nerfed is that a lot of alterations or counterbalancing should occur... for instance if wotb cc immunity is nerfed then wallers/vortex/arcanes should be better fine tuned ie. you cant have 1 vortex from 1 elite, you leap to escape, and then have another elite vortexing you into arcane "turrets", or you leap and there's rubberbanding (i personally have a lot of rubberbanding)... this AI / latency problems wont be fixed, so the game wont be on the basis of skill-based play...

    TLDR: why nerf something that works, instead please bring the rest of the skills up to par
  • #14
    I think the best response from the Blizz Developers would be to buff other versions of WoTB runes so that Thrive on Chaos doesnt seem like the only option. What if Insanity offered 3.5x damage for a short period, just as one rough example. I think attention should be given to other runes because the mechanics of Thrive on Chaos is sweet. Perma archon is sweet, buff the other options that are lacking and make those more appealing. Don't simply nerf the some of the most well-known builds we have
  • #15
    Quote from ias13

    TLDR: why nerf something that works, instead please bring the rest of the skills up to par


    Because you dont balance a game by just buffing all spells to the same level of a spell that is a outlier and scales too good.
    It just doesnt work. There have to be Buffs AND Nerfs to balance a game.

    Dont get me wrong. I totally agree that they have to buff many other runes from spells that are bullshit atm which feels like filler but i really cant see how they will be able to buff other runes from Wotb to make them on par with toc. Buffin insanity to 200% more dmg? Everyone will still be using toc. It is just too good if you can keep it up that easy all the time.

    You can also argue that in a hack and slay game not everything should be balanced and there should be builds that are alot stronger than others. I agree with that. But there should be a limit where certain spells feel way to strong and make some mechanics of the game feel broken. It was the same with smoke screen or the party bubble from the monk at the beginning. And im glad they nerfed these spells.
  • #16
    Quote from Koboldius

    Quote from ias13

    TLDR: why nerf something that works, instead please bring the rest of the skills up to par


    Because you dont balance a game by just buffing all spells to the same level of a spell that is a outlier and scales too good.
    It just doesnt work. There have to be Buffs AND Nerfs to balance a game.

    Dont get me wrong. I totally agree that they have to buff many other runes from spells that are bullshit atm which feels like filler but i really cant see how they will be able to buff other runes from Wotb to make them on par with toc. Buffin insanity to 200% more dmg? Everyone will still be using toc. It is just too good if you can keep it up that easy all the time.

    You can also argue that in a hack and slay game not everything should be balanced and there should be builds that are alot stronger than others. I agree with that. But there should be a limit where certain spells feel way to strong and make some mechanics of the game feel broken. It was the same with smoke screen or the party bubble from the monk at the beginning. And im glad they nerfed these spells.


    You couldn't be more wrong. If there's any rune that scales extremely well with gear its Insanity. TOC only provides a permanent wheelchair for players to skip core features of the game which isn't what a POWER UP is supposed to do. A nerf would be if the crit bonus was decreased to 8, but the goal here is to completely change the mechanic of a specific rune because it takes away from your overall experience. There is a big difference.

    WOTB Insanity has always been the superior rune for Skorn users that don't just want to drop some silly trash. If the benefit was increased to 200% geared players would be able to destroy MP10 ubers in something like 10 seconds which would be as big of a problem as TOC is now.
  • #17
    Quote from Strafir

    Quote from Koboldius

    Quote from ias13

    TLDR: why nerf something that works, instead please bring the rest of the skills up to par


    Because you dont balance a game by just buffing all spells to the same level of a spell that is a outlier and scales too good.
    It just doesnt work. There have to be Buffs AND Nerfs to balance a game.

    Dont get me wrong. I totally agree that they have to buff many other runes from spells that are bullshit atm which feels like filler but i really cant see how they will be able to buff other runes from Wotb to make them on par with toc. Buffin insanity to 200% more dmg? Everyone will still be using toc. It is just too good if you can keep it up that easy all the time.

    You can also argue that in a hack and slay game not everything should be balanced and there should be builds that are alot stronger than others. I agree with that. But there should be a limit where certain spells feel way to strong and make some mechanics of the game feel broken. It was the same with smoke screen or the party bubble from the monk at the beginning. And im glad they nerfed these spells.


    You couldn't be more wrong. If there's any rune that scales extremely well with gear its Insanity. TOC only provides a permanent wheelchair for players to skip core features of the game which isn't what a POWER UP is supposed to do. A nerf would be if the crit bonus was decreased to 8, but the goal here is to completely change the mechanic of a specific rune because it takes away from your overall experience. There is a big difference.

    WOTB Insanity has always been the superior rune for Skorn users that don't just want to drop some silly trash. If the benefit was increased to 200% geared players would be able to destroy MP10 ubers in something like 10 seconds which would be as big of a problem as TOC is now.


    1: Dude becaue we have different opinions on that topic doesnt make my state wrong.
    2: The 200% was just a random number i came up with.
    3: Toc feels alot more broken than insanity in its current states.
    4: Why do you always speak about trash
  • #18
    buffing doesnt mean just damage... could mean utility or in some other form... an easy example would be if lets say weapon throw:ricochet was buffed to generate more fury it would make it a viable spec for a seismic slam fury spender or some other ranged fury spender...
    another example if any of the whirlwind skills didnt gimp running so much they would be nice alternatives and you could maybe dispose of WW/sprint:RLTW combo for some other skill...
    In some cases utility is more important than dps.
  • #19
    Quote from ias13

    buffing doesnt mean just damage... could mean utility or in some other form... an easy example would be if lets say weapon throw:ricochet was buffed to generate more fury it would make it a viable spec for a seismic slam fury spender or some other ranged fury spender...
    another example if any of the whirlwind skills didnt gimp running so much they would be nice alternatives and you could maybe dispose of WW/sprint:RLTW combo for some other skill...
    In some cases utility is more important than dps.



    And thats exatly why toc is too strong atm. It combines a steadily dmg increase with awesome utility.
  • #20
    This all seems like premature over-reacting. They haven't even said when or how they MIGHT change it; just that they've been looking at it and it's on their wishlist to address at some point down the road. It's not 1.08. It may not even be 1.09. Any change is at least 3 months away yet.

    Secondly, MP10 without WotB is perfectly doable for a barb. I manage just fine with multiple builds. It's slower sure (ToC adds about a x1.5-x2 eDPS multiplier ontop of everything), but that's the idea behind WotB in the first place. I personally don't think you're ready for MP10 (and shouldn't be in there) if you can't at least manage it without ToC propping you up. WotB should be about going into overdrive mode when needed, not a crutch to make the MP level even feasible for you. I have way more respect to a War Cry using HotA barb I see trudging his way through an MP10 game than I do for most of the raging idiots I usually see running off 3 screens ahead because if they lose their wrath they can't stay alive.

    I can see perfectly well where Travis Day and the dev team are coming from. WotB, well ToC specifically, is just too alluring. That extra x1.5 or x2 eDPS without the hassle of Frozen or Nightmare is just so hard to pass up. You do feel like you're not optimal when you don't use it. Without perma-wrath though I may drop it entirely. I have little use for a skill that's active 15 seconds out of 120. The other runes don't really interest me much because of that. I think they should increase the duration to at least 30 seconds and cut the cooldown to 90 seconds, for starters. I'm not sure what to suggest for ToC itself aside from just increasing the fury require for each second of extension.

    My biggest worry about all of this is that they change Into the Fray instead of WotB-ToC itself. If they do that then they mess with so much more than just the permawrath issue that they seem to be targetting.

    -dolynick
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