Teach a man to fish....

  • #1
    So, as like many (many!) posts in this forum, I am a fairly low-geared (50k DPS) WW Barb farming on MP0/1 and looking for ways to better my gear.

    However to try and break the trend and set an example I don't just want to link my profile and get spoon-fed the answers as to what pieces I should focus on and what to change. Instead I would really appreciate some feedback on how experienced and highly geared Barb's evaluate items, plan upgrades and how they spend their gold.

    Do you try and identify weaker pieces and then work towards upgrading them first or just always upgrade to the item which will boost your DPS/EHP most that you can afford?

    Is it more efficient to spend low amounts of gold (<300k) on minor upgrades/side-grades or save and invest bigger (2m+) on a single item?

    Is your primary source of upgrading buying off the AH, or from self drops? If the AH, what is your primary source of income?

    At what DPS level do you value Lifesteal, and below that is it worthless?

    Are their 'soft caps' for stats that once hit you should avoid actively trying to increase them? For instance my rough stats are below, are there already values I no longer need to increase e.g. VIT? Any that seem very low?

    50k DPS, 42k HP, 1000 VIT, 1300 STR, 330% Crit Damage, 50% Crit, 500 Res, 8% Life Steal, 850 LoH

    Just some starter questions to get things going. My goal is to understand the methodology rather than just linking my profile and never getting to grips with the reasoning behind the advice.
  • #2
    I wouldn't class myself as highly experienced or geared but regarding the stats you posted, they're all fine apart from strength which you should try and get somewhere above 2000, and crit dmg which should be around the 500 mark.

    I normally buy off the AH and use a damage calculator such as d3up to work out the potential benefits. My income was from lucky drops.

    LoH you can drop down a bit when you get above 80-100k dps. I'm currently running 500 Loh with about 5.6% life steal and can stand in desecrator / plagued.

    Without seeing your gear I'd strongly recommend you invest in good chest and pants. If you can get 200 str/vit + 60 resists on both of these pieces then you'll have a strong base to build from - good luck!
  • #3
    I've been playing awhile now and made a lot of mistakes with this. So, I believe I can offer some friendly advice.

    People say life steal isn't better than loh until about 100k dps. I say depends on playstyle. 2-handed players with axe or higher speed weapons will gain as much from life steal weapons if ls is 2.5 or higher. And barbs especially if they have life steal on their belt, won't notice a difference. At around 50kdps, you just need either ls or loh. Get the better deal.

    People tend to move into the 100k dps range too defensively. As you go up in dps, you can go down in all res. just keep your vitality high.

    Buying minor upgrades isn't effective unless you're in need of improving an area (if you're dying too much or unable to kill fast enough). Unless you don't have movement speed. Never give an inch on ms.

    It's better to farm until you get a killer drop, flip that and buy something you'll be proud of. Something that will really improve your character. Especially now that you're very likely to find minor upgrades anyway (almost every minor upgrade I've made post 1.04 has been followed by a drop which was almost as good or better).

    Really, farming mp0 is so effective now that as long as you can do it reasonably well, there's no point in good starving your character for items you'll want to replace as soon as you acquire them.

    The other thing is that the more you play your guy, the better you'll understand what he needs which leads to smarter improvements.

    Just farm. Don't pick up anything other than rings, amulets, gloves, legendaries, and weapons >=ilvl62. Otherwise you're losing too much time.

    Hope it helps.
  • #4
    *gold starving
  • #5
    Ohh, and most importantly, don't just buy what's available when you have the money for a big upgrade. Wait until it's what you want, not just close. If you can wait a week, you can get a better item with the stats you're really looking for.
  • #6
    I like it that you are asking how to gear your self instead of "i have XXmil what to upgrade threads"
    Lets faced it hardly anyone use self found gear, i mean it is super rare to find the exact drop you needed. Having said that I use a few self found gear (maybe from my other character) because I am a cheapo >.

    now looking at your stats I can tell straight away where your problem is. your strength as someone mentioned is way too low. You should be aiming 2000+ strength. your lifesteal is not needed YET with 50k dps, I am on 88k dps and I try to run mp3 on 6% LS but life on hit still feels better for me. I have IK belt and lamentation already for lifesteal but i feel my 150k belt perform more the same way at this time maybe because it has more defensive stats the damage is less spiky (physical res that stacks with other armor) I think I ended with 800 AR 900 physical resist when I found my balance for mp3 run (not fast not slow, but i just farm mp1 because its faster).

    part of upgrading is to understand each items and how they come in together in the end not just individually, say u have very high str shoulder but no vit what do u do? well u can try get vit on every other piece or get massive one on chest or pants. u need to know what max rolls for each slot for each stat (300 int dex for glove 300 str for belt and shoulder, 300vit for chest and pants, etc). what special stat can spawn on what slot (lifesteal on mighty belts, crit on helm bracer and gloves, attack speed, life% etc).

    next you need to know legendaries and their stats, movement speed on bracer like lacuni prowlers, attack speed on andariel visage helm, those can't be found on normal items. And the legendary stats, many legendaries have low or high roll of main stat so you see why there is an IK belt for 100k and there are others over a mil. it is not cost effective to buy low rolls legendaries or high rolls legendaries with bad random roll but sometimes we can't help it with budget limitation, it is so much easier to pick what you want on yellow gears instead with legendaries. you need to learn which legendary is not helpful for which class. vile ward is a very good shoulder no doubt, high main stat, high all resist, armor. now why are they so good is they can roll the main stat over 200 so everyone loves them (like promise of glory can roll over 200 stat which is not possible on yellow bracer) but str goes to 300 on shoulder so vile ward is not really ideal for barb. I try to find a 2-4m vileward for upgrade and i cant find one to replace my 200k shoulder!! that shows a 200k shoulder can be similar (slightly less stat) with a nice legendary. a vit roll vile ward is expensive too!! but a 2-3m rare shoulder i can get 230ishstr 100 vit which i want since I am going for 2 piece IK, IK pieces lacks of natural VIT so u have to plan to get it from different places and getting a vile ward is going to make my life even harder (i think vile ward rolls max 100 vit too) or maybe i go for 100 str since i have too much str anyway and went 180 vit and a pick up radius, armor, high resist, plus an extra resist or something. knowing my vit is on a place that at a comfortable level i have doubts going for IK set as I know my health would drop. this is why ice climbers and fire walkers are soooo good for barb ice climbers with such a high native main stat roll plus a socket plus 3 random roll (pray to your diablo gods that if u ever found one that it has MV as random drop and the others to complement your the main stat, even if u found an int one u can sell for sooo much) fire walkers has movement speed but no all resist. one with all res is expensive so if u plan to use this u need to pick up all resist somewhere else.

    I avoided legendaries and set with my initial 2m budget and it has work pretty for me, the only legendary i use is andariel visage early on with gold find roll, cost me 50k gold, the dps increase it offers for 50k gold helm is INSANE, but those extra damage from fire hurts on higher MPs so i would not recommend it for mp run above two or three, i have 800 all res too. Yes you need to identify where to upgrade your pieces and you need to plan. And really 2m gear a piece is nothing, I can only find small upgrades with 2m budget a piece, what i want is 3-5m a piece at they are far from the best gear! My plan is to keep farming and wait for jackpot drop and buy 10m+ pieces.

    Lets take my cheapo barb for example
    pardon the few mf pieces but my other budget belt is of similar stats with more str but less all resist. my other boots has 130 str lower AR 50 vit and 12 movespeed.
    hopefully can help you understand the mind set about upgrading by explaining my process of upgrading now. Cheapo barb has bad main hand! Well I was lucky 2 days ago i found a white damage mighty weapon 950 dps with 100+str and a socket. I tried it didn't quite like it i mow down mobs faster with my mace maybe because of the 10% crit passive maybe the 150 extra str I am not too sure. what I like though with that fury generation is sooo easy with it, when you have too many dps and running too low mp levels you will have a problem with fury so using mighty weapon it is much easier for me on mp1 but its not that I cannot live without so i put it up on ah 1.5m buy out sold within 15 minutes. i guess i should put it up for more but i tend to sale everything for cheap so i can put up many items. so on this lessons i found out that a 950 dps weapon I didnt get any dps increase because my weapon type changed and i survive better because of the LS on mp3. so higher dps weapon is not always the case. my previous axe is 1m 850dps with double crit and 100 str but this mace has better dps from the 150 extra str.

    shitty glove hands down I have a different glove 127 str some vit higher around AR 7% IAS and crit but this gloves gives me more dps and i paid less than 3k gold for it... 10% crit max u can get, crit only spawns on selected pieces too I went for crit and ias instead of crit damage knowing that i have 2 weapon with 2 double crit my off hand has 99% crit damage plus gem. my upgrade will be similar with vit and maybe slightly higher all resist but it is hard for me to find some decent glove so i am happy to wear my 3k gold glove.

    to quickly go over since this is getting long, i would replace my ring, one without loh and all resist, a pure dps ring like the mf ring, actually sometimes i have to go for another similar ring with 200 loh and ar just because of loh is strained on mp4) when I can afford losing the AR. same with amulet (my back up amulet is less str but 100+vit and 80AR gives me better survivability). shoulder with more str and secondary stat (armor, physical fire resist) but since I need the pick up radius it has been difficult to find one for a reasonable price (sub 1m). one way i can do it is to move pick up radius on glove or bracer but since i have nice bracer (self found) and my glove is an area of improvement i will try to move it to my glove. need a more defensive helm 100str 100vit armor all resist and crit chance (forget about socket for the time being) IK helm with all resist or vit roll is an option but they are pricy but i am eyeing that or IK glove because i have a belt ready. Mempo is an option too but it is an offensive helm

    i dont bother with pants because they are bit expensive since all barb went IK armor all barb wants high vit pants QQ. boots dont i bother, similar boots like mine cost 500k-1m (imagine the int as an str for the time) for extra 50vit will cost me 3m, i can use 3m to pick up more value on better rings/amulet/glove than just an extra 50vit and 20str on boots. My plan here is to buy 100m on ice climber one day. Sorry for the long post but i hope you get the gist of upgrading especially on lower budget.
  • #7
    A lot of people make mistakes with gearing up, even more people are unsure of how to gear up effectively. Quite honestly the main advise i can give you - understand how your class works + understand your gear + understand your stats.

    If you want a simplified example of how to gear up - go ahead to diabloprogress.com and filter our your class, browse players sorted by DPS ranking 20-50 or so. (Do not look at the first few, they simply stack DPS gear with virtually no EHP - i've seen 400k DPS barbs with 100k EHP, which is obsolete since he can't go beyond MP2 and 400k DPS is really unnecessary in MP2).

    The main thing you need to figure out is item slots. For example what are you going to gear for? Which build? 1h or 2h? Do you need any special stats such as -5 rage cost of weapon throw etc? What is your gearing goal (high MP ubers or just pure fast / efficient farming)? Read up on how your build works (for example a lot of people get skorn go up to 150k DPS and try to farm MP1... it just isn't going to work because stuff dies too fast and you get no procs from your tornado to generate enough rage to keep your WotB up - if you are aiming to farm MP1 stick to very fast mid damage 1 handers)

    After that figure out your slots:
    - rings / amulet / gloves = main sources of tri/quadfecta to get your uber DPS, you do not want defensive stats or VIT on these (unless you have a few billion gold sitting around)
    - shoulders / chest = your main sources or defensive stats look for 200+ VIT and 70+ all resists
    You want at least 450-500 all resist to be able to have easy time in very high MPs = you have shoulder + chest with AR = 140 AR done, you need another 300 (minus a bit from base INT which you get when you lvl up) say you need 4 more slots with AR....

    Basically this is the kind of logic you want to follow, after you have planned out your 'final destination' / BIS / uber gear setup - start moving towards it, one step at a time. My suggestion is start with the cheapest pieces first and move towards the more expensive ones. If you are planning to make a lot of upgrades as you earn gold - invest into set / legendary items as they are easy to resell (as compared to rares)
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #8
    nice advices
  • #9
    Quote from Amex

    So, as like many (many!) posts in this forum, I am a fairly low-geared (50k DPS) WW Barb farming on MP0/1 and looking for ways to better my gear.

    Is it more efficient to spend low amounts of gold (<300k) on minor upgrades/side-grades or save and invest bigger (2m+) on a single item?

    Is your primary source of upgrading buying off the AH, or from self drops? If the AH, what is your primary source of income?

    At what DPS level do you value Lifesteal, and below that is it worthless?

    50k DPS, 42k HP, 1000 VIT, 1300 STR, 330% Crit Damage, 50% Crit, 500 Res, 8% Life Steal, 850 LoH

    Bottom line on finding an upgrade versus buying one: Probably wont happen. The way the market is right now, getting upgrades at lower gear levels is really cheap. It is more worth it for you to farm alkizer runs (or whatever run you prefer) for gear/gold to use to buy an upgrade than it is to actually try to find an upgrade as a drop (at least for times sake). For your time (and barring the gods of RNG), it is better spent doing runs to get gold/that occasional good item drop for upgrades rather than just trying to find one. As an example, the last time I actually found an upgrade for my barb was 2 weeks ago... the last one before that was before MP dropped (hell probably before even 1.2 dropped). After the initial gearing period, you will be very lucky to find an item that is a really nice upgrade, even with the improved drop rate.

    To further expand on LS versus LOH, its actually best to get both stats if you can afford it. Without a link to your profile, I cant say what pieces are in more dire need of an upgrade over the other. For example, I run 8.8% LS and like 300 LOH right now (110k dps), but back when I was at 63k dps, I ran about 1200 LOH and 4.6% LS. There is also playstyle to take in to consideration on whether or not LOH is better than LS below 65-75k (which is usually the breakpoint where 900 LOH

    Now this part is very important:
    part of upgrading is to understand each items and how they come in together in the end not just individually, say u have very high str shoulder but no vit what do u do? well u can try get vit on every other piece or get massive one on chest or pants.

    What this should say to you is to try to build a set on balance rather than getting all perfect items right now. I was exactly at the spot you are at a little while ago, and what I did was build my set based on rounding out my gear, so to speak. Depending on your budget, you may want to get those gloves that have str, AR, crit chance and CD, but have no vit. You may want to get that neck that loses you 3k HP, but gives you 150 str. You can make up for the losses with other pieces of gear. The tryhard budget barb video actually illustrates how you can put together a set of gear by having pieces missing one or two stats that would make it otherwise godly.

    As for upgrading big versus small, its mostly on a case by case basis. It really depends on what slot you are looking to upgrade, and the item in the slot itself. If its a neck with like 170 str, 100 vit, AR, and +armor or something, then it would be very worth it to spend a lot of gold for one with crit chance and crit damage (or attack speed). What I can say about lower gear levels is that since your strength isnt very high right now, it should be your main concern as long as you can keep most of your other stats. Right now losing crit damage wouldn't be quite as damaging if you could gain a decent amount of strength. More to the point: at your gear level, going big on upgrading the worst items will give you the most overall benefit right now. I know that seems sort of common sense to say, but rather than upgrading X,Y,Z slots with medium upgrades, you would see a very noticeable difference if you picked up an upgrade for the worst item at a higher cost. At MP0/1, you can afford to drop some HP/AR for dps, and probably should consider doing so as dropping (or lowering) those defensive stats makes for a much cheaper and bigger dps upgrade.

    Now as you are farming MP0/1, you can lose quite a bit of HP in favor of DPS as monsters wont hit you very hard with that level of AR/HP. Dropping vit in favor of very high strength/AR/crit/critD/AS will net you an overall huge upgrade. Bloodvaga is spot on when he talked about moving into the 100k dps range too defensively. You can likely drop down to 35k hp and see not a huge difference in survivability if you keep that LS/LOH as high as it is right now. Dropping 7k hp would likely allow you to get your DPS up by a whole lot, more than 20k pretty easily depending on how much vit is on the item that you are replacing. As far as 1h vs 2h goes, a 2h WW barb requires a TON of gear to be efficient, and frankly isnt worth building to unless you have a serious bankroll. Now I am a somewhat strange breed in that I am only just now beginning to worry about getting attack speed rather than trying to get it all along. Now i am going to get mathy here, but unless you can get to an attack speed breakpoint (the point where your WW/tornadoes will tick 1 extra time), I would somewhat urge you to put it lower on your priority list. For this reason alone, I use enchantress rather than scoundrel as my follower due to the fact that her attack speed buff puts me beyond that breakpoint.

    Specific legendaries that are cheap for good stats (at your gear level):
    Lamentation belt: Seriously a great belt if you can afford to either drop vit or AR. On US servers, you can get one with 180+ str, 80 vit, 2.7% lifesteal for under 1 mil, and they even come with 1% crit along with a bonus to an ability.
    Unity: high strength, 4.5% or more crit, + damage affix, and LOH for really cheap if it doesnt have crit damage, vit, or AR
    Strongarm bracers: only if you must, as many rares are better, but these usually roll really nice and are dirt cheap again. High strength roll, % life, 3%+ crit.
    Fire Walkers: EASILY one of the most underrated items in the game. Capitalize on this as they can have ridiculous stats (though not ice climbers). I got my 160 str, 140 vit fire walkers for 500k. They automatically come with fire resist and 12% runspeed, which is very nice, and the extra 4-6k ticks from the fire trail adds up quickly.

    As for specific to slots, at your gear level here is what I valued when I had similar gear to yours(spoiler tagged to save space):

    Helm: 50+ Str, some vit, 45+ AR, 3%+ crit chance, socket (ones without sockets are dirt cheap though and have better stats)
    Neck: High (130+) str, 50+ vit, 8%+ crit chance, LOH (crit damage or +dmg if you can afford to drop LOH)
    Shoulder: 150+ str, 80+ vit, 55+ AR, and either life% +armor or phys/fire resist
    Chest: 80+ str, 60+ vit, 2-3 sockets, 55+ AR (these days you can find ones much better than the stats I listed with only 2 sockets for really cheap)
    Legs: Basically the same as chest except 1 socket and higher vit than str (2 sockets are really expensive)
    Belt: 180+ str, 60+ AR, 2.5%+ LS, and basically any other stat that isnt +health to globes
    Gloves: 80+ str, any vit (or none depending on if you want crit damage/AS), 40+AR, 9% crit (8% if going for crit damage)
    Bracers: highest strength i could get, 40+ AR, 5-6% crit (adding vit multiplies the cost at least 10fold)
    Rings: +damage (a seriously underrated stat), 100+ str, 3%+ crit, crit damage/AS if i could, if I couldnt get crit damage/AS, vit/AR, and MAYBE LOH depending on the cost.
    Feet: (this was before the price for firewalkers plummeted) 120+str, 100+ vit, 10%+ movement speed, and AR if it was in budget.

    Weapons are a whole other beast.
    MH Weapon: At your gear level, the best choice would be to go for the highest dps mace/axe you can that rolls crit damage and MAYBE str/AS. I know that it feels wrong to possibly lose a socket, but if you can go from an 830 dps 100 str 40% crit damage socket weapon (with a 60% gem) to a 1k+ dps weapon with any str, 60%+ crit damage, and possibly AS, you will see a HUGE difference in the damage of your tornadoes and the whirlwinds themselves. I personally am a fan of maces as they have the better damage range (the 515-1064 damage part below the dps number). Depending on your gear (again since your str is low, I would probably prioritize getting that up above getting new weapons), your most expensive upgrade will be here. If you can get your strength up, splurging here is a really good idea as the sprint tornado ticks are based on your mainhand damage only.
    OH Weapon: Stats. Nothing else really matters until you begin using WW a lot more. You want a sword or a dagger offhand, but daggers are the way to go unless the sword has enough attack speed to put it above 1.5 weapon speed. For individual stats, get the highest str, crit damage, lifesteal dagger you can with a socket. You can swap LS for high LOH if you want, but once you get above a certain threshold (determined by gear), LS is better.

    TLDR: The easiest way to know how much a given increase of each stat would benefit your DPS, use something like d3rawr.com or d3up.com. Those websites both give you specific amounts that increasing any offensive stat would increase your dps. d3up.com is great for determining what item is giving you the least benefit in terms of EHP and DPS which is very nice, while d3rawr.com gives you in depth data for dps (such as what your ACTUAL dps is with tornadoes, and also how much LOH is worth 1% LS). At lower MP levels, you can sacrifice a lot of vit/AR for dps as enemies dont hit very hard, and should die too fast to damage you too badly. It is more worth it overall to upgrade your worst items first, even if there is a bigger upgrade for a better item because those upgrades will be cheaper, and have more of an impact.
  • #10
    Orange drop, very impressive post. I will have to mark this for later!
  • #11
    Quote from BloodVaga

    People say life steal isn't better than loh until about 100k dps. I say depends on playstyle. 2-handed players with axe or higher speed weapons will gain as much from life steal weapons if ls is 2.5 or higher. And barbs especially if they have life steal on their belt, won't notice a difference. At around 50kdps, you just need either ls or loh. Get the better deal.

    This isn't true at all. If you have a two hander that hits for 50k in one swing in one second, or a dual wield set up that hits for 25k twice in one second, your rate of life steal return is going to be equal. However, if you were using life on hit, your chance of return is doubled with dual wield. If you really want to see what your life steal is worth, you can go to d3rawr.com and look at the tDPS and BES scores in the bottom right, it calculates exactly what your life steal is worth in terms of equivalent life on hit, and per second.
  • #12
    This is what happens when a person post something worth answering in more than 3 lines. Its absolutely beautiful and reading through this has helped me a ton.

    Thx to the OP and all you guys taking your time answering:)
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