From another post about a Barb build someone commented that Frenzy does more damage than Bash.
Well I did some math on Frenzy+Maniac Vs Bash+Onslaught.
Comparing these 2 skills has to count the total number of attacks for each Skill within the same amount of time. Using anything less than 1 attack (.15% of an attack for example) for calculations in inaccurate. Using IAS (Increased Attack Speed) is also inaccurate.
This is what I came up with..... and I think its pretty accurate.
_____________________________________________________
Calculations using a hypothetical attack speed of 1 attack per second.
FRENZY + MANIAC
1 sec - 110%
.85 sec - 114% -- (224%)
.70 sec - 118% -- (342%)
.55 sec - 122% -- (464% -- 3.1 sec -- Bash has done 582%, striking 3 times Vs Frenzy's 4)
.40 sec - 126% -- (590% -- 3.5 sec -- At this point Frenzy has struck again before Bash can)
.25 sec - 130% -- (720% -- 3.75 sec -- Frenzy has stuck a 2nd time before Bash can)
.25 sec - 130% -- (850% -- 4 sec -- Bash has now Hit for 194%, much less than Frenzy's 130% however, Frenzy has struck a total of 3 times more in the same amount of time, resulting in more damage being done)
Total Damage in 4 seconds = 850%
Damage in the following 4 seconds once Frenzy has stacked is as follows. Total = 2080%
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
Total Damage in 8 seconds = 2930%
_______________________________________________
Frenzy's bonus only applies to Frenzy. So you can't ramp it up then use it's bonus on Bash.
And that's not the way Attack Speed is calculated. For example, if you attack speed is 1.4 attack per second. A 75% increase would be 1.4 x 1.75 = 2.45 Attacks per second.
Similarly, a weapon of 1.0 attack speed would have 1.75 attacks per second. You'd hit every ~.57 sec.
And I think you lost me on the Bash damage. 776% x 2 is 1552%.
And that's not the way Attack Speed is calculated. For example, if you attack speed is 1.4 attack per second. A 75% increase would be 1.4 x 1.75 = 2.45 Attacks per second.
Similarly, a weapon of 1.0 attack speed would have 1.75 attacks per second. You'd hit every ~.57 sec.
And I think you lost me on the Bash damage. 776% x 2 is 1552%.
(Whoops. typo. Thanks mate... fixed)
If a weapon has a 1.0 AS, and it was increased by +75% (3/4), it would attack every .25 seconds, right?
If a weapon has a 1.0 AS, and it was increased by +75% (3/4), it would attack every .25 seconds, right?
Absolutely not, that would be pretty crazy, a 300% increase in attack speed, to be precise.
A 75% increase means that instead of 1.00 attacks per second, you get 1.75. per second. That means 7 attacks in 4 seconds or 1 attack every 0.57 secs like Brunn11 already stated.
If a weapon has a 1.0 AS, and it was increased by +75% (3/4), it would attack every .25 seconds, right?
Duh... correct me if I'm wrong but I'd say that :
If a weapon has a 1.0 AS ; you've got 1hit per second
if you increase your weapon AS by 75% ; you've now 1.75 hit(s) per second ? (that's here that I'm not confident ^^)
So :
1.75 hit(s) / 1 sec
3.5 hits / 2 sec
7 hits / 4 sec
....
So 1 hit every (4 / 7 = 0.57~) sec
Eventually, you would attack every 0.57 sec, not 0.25 sec. Huge difference.
At the beginning I was pleased, as you are, to kick some ass lightspeed. But then I found a massive 2h sword and my DPS went much higher. From then I tried to craft some 2h Claymores, and poped a 19.2 DPS, Frost Enchanted, Life leech. Was very fun to clean monsters packs with one massive cleave and regain full life from this one hit !
Yeh, looks like its back to the drawing board and I've been looking at attack speed all wrong.
It should be something like...
1 Hit/sec
1.15 Hit/sec
1.30 Hit/sec
1.45 Hit/sec
1.60 Hit/sec
1.75 Hit/sec
1.75 Hit/sec... and so on yes? Then just do this until we get to an even number to compare it to Bash.
Well, I've crunched some numbers using the (1.75 hit/sec formula) and come up with this.
Since the Frenzy attack comes out at different intervals until it reachs its +75% bonus resulting in an attack every .57 sec, I've had to keep counting hits until I get to even number for seconds.
Getting an even number was hard though, so then next best thing was 5.09 seconds and 13.07 seconds. I've used two different numbers to see how the damage compares since Frenzy+Maniac takes 6 hits to get to its max DPS.
My feeling is that it's going to depend on how viable it is to keep Frenzy fully stacked. If you can do that without too much trouble, Frenzy is going to win. If you can't, Bash is going to win.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Once Frenzy+Maniac has maxed it beats Bash+Onslaught in damage by about 18%
Frenzy + Maniac (Maxed)
- 7 Hits in 4 Seconds x 130% = 910%
Bash + Onslaught
- 4 Hits in 4 Seconds x 194 = 776%
Over all Frenzy is probably better because unless something can be killed in 5 hits (from Bash) Frenzy has buffed and is now doing more DPS.
Of course even if something does die in 3 hits from Bash+Onslaught, you're only 3 strikes away from doing the same amount of damage with Frenzy+Maniac and the skill has now buffed and doing more than Bash anyway.
Another thing to consider would be fury generation...if you are using a mighty weapon and use the weapon master passive.
Every bash+onslaught will also give +15 fury, 6+3, +3,+3 for the revereberations.
Frenzy would generate +6 fury per hit.
So that means those 7 hits of frenzy generated 42 fury. While the 4 bashes generated 60 fury in the same amount of time. Those 21 frenzy hits would generate 126 fury, and the 13 bashes generates 195. You can go from 0 fury to full in 10 bashes. But it would take 25 hits with frenzy to reach full fury.
That would be a consideration for a max fury build.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I want to travel to exotic places, meet interesting people. And then throw spider-filled jars of pottery at them.
Good point however, Frenzy would also gain +3 Fury with a mighty weapon.
The difference between Frenzy and Bash is the addiotanal 6 (+3+3) Fury from the reverberations on Bash's Maniac Rune.
Frenzy - 7 x 6+3 = 63
Bash (+Maniac) - 4 x 6+3 + 3+3 = 60
Frenzy - 21 x 6+3 = 189
Bash (+Maniac) - 13 x 6+3 + 3+3 = 195
Bash makes more Fury but not initially since the attack speed makes make more Fury faster. Eventually though, the increased Fury bonus exceeds what can be generated from additional hits
Fury is gonna be the choice you'll want for bosses, Bash is more of a CC burst kinda skill... mostly used on those mobs that can burst you quickly.
It's like comparing a Axe to a Chainsaw, the Axe can cut deeper with a single swing and would be better for small branches but the Chainsaw will cut through the trunk of the tree faster than the Axe.
Fury is gonna be the choice you'll want for bosses, Bash is more of a CC burst kinda skill... mostly used on those mobs that can burst you quickly.
It's like comparing a Axe to a Chainsaw, the Axe can cut deeper with a single swing and would be better for small branches but the Chainsaw will cut through the trunk of the tree faster than the Axe.
Pretty much this, I haven't done the math but I'm sure that you'll find Frenzy to have a bigger DPS output when it comes to bosses. Whether Bash seems to be great for the quick chance stun. Great analogy too Jadefox.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
Increased attack speed is additive and not multiplicative, so if you have 50% IAS the damage of Bash would be increased by 50%, while the damage of Frenzy is only increased by (1.75+0.50)/1.75)=28,6%. I think in the end both skills are very very close.
Has this been confirmed explicitly for Frenzy?
No doubt about general haste bonuses stacking additively, that's displayed in the char screen, so beta play could confirm it. The Frenzy stacks however didn't make it into the char screen because they only apply to Frenzy itself. So I'd consider it more probable to be a separate multiplier. Otherwise that skill could become extremely outclassed by Bash given some haste gear and the dual wield bonus (if anyone doesn't use a shield).
Well I did some math on Frenzy+Maniac Vs Bash+Onslaught.
Comparing these 2 skills has to count the total number of attacks for each Skill within the same amount of time. Using anything less than 1 attack (.15% of an attack for example) for calculations in inaccurate. Using IAS (Increased Attack Speed) is also inaccurate.
This is what I came up with..... and I think its pretty accurate.
_____________________________________________________
1 sec - 110%
.85 sec - 114% -- (224%)
.70 sec - 118% -- (342%)
.55 sec - 122% -- (464% -- 3.1 sec -- Bash has done 582%, striking 3 times Vs Frenzy's 4)
.40 sec - 126% -- (590% -- 3.5 sec -- At this point Frenzy has struck again before Bash can)
.25 sec - 130% -- (720% -- 3.75 sec -- Frenzy has stuck a 2nd time before Bash can)
.25 sec - 130% -- (850% -- 4 sec -- Bash has now Hit for 194%, much less than Frenzy's 130% however, Frenzy has struck a total of 3 times more in the same amount of time, resulting in more damage being done)
Total Damage in 4 seconds = 850%
Damage in the following 4 seconds once Frenzy has stacked is as follows. Total = 2080%
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
1 sec - (4x Attacks @130) = 520
Total Damage in 8 seconds = 2930%
_______________________________________________
1 sec - 194%
1 sec - 194% -- 388%
1 sec - 194% -- 582%
1 sec - 194% -- 776%
Total Damage in 4 seconds = 776%
Total Damage in 8 seconds = 1552% (damage simply doubled, no modifiers applicable)
_______________________________________________
What this basically means, is that unless an enemy is destroyed by Bash+Onslaught in 3 strikes or less, Frenzy+Maniac does more damage.
And that's not the way Attack Speed is calculated. For example, if you attack speed is 1.4 attack per second. A 75% increase would be 1.4 x 1.75 = 2.45 Attacks per second.
Similarly, a weapon of 1.0 attack speed would have 1.75 attacks per second. You'd hit every ~.57 sec.
And I think you lost me on the Bash damage. 776% x 2 is 1552%.
(Whoops. typo. Thanks mate... fixed)
If a weapon has a 1.0 AS, and it was increased by +75% (3/4), it would attack every .25 seconds, right?
Absolutely not, that would be pretty crazy, a 300% increase in attack speed, to be precise.
A 75% increase means that instead of 1.00 attacks per second, you get 1.75. per second. That means 7 attacks in 4 seconds or 1 attack every 0.57 secs like Brunn11 already stated.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
If a weapon has a 1.0 AS ; you've got 1hit per second
if you increase your weapon AS by 75% ; you've now 1.75 hit(s) per second ? (that's here that I'm not confident ^^)
So :
1.75 hit(s) / 1 sec
3.5 hits / 2 sec
7 hits / 4 sec
....
So 1 hit every (4 / 7 = 0.57~) sec
Eventually, you would attack every 0.57 sec, not 0.25 sec. Huge difference.
EDIT : preshot by Solmyr77 =[
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It should be something like...
1 Hit/sec
1.15 Hit/sec
1.30 Hit/sec
1.45 Hit/sec
1.60 Hit/sec
1.75 Hit/sec
1.75 Hit/sec... and so on yes? Then just do this until we get to an even number to compare it to Bash.
Since the Frenzy attack comes out at different intervals until it reachs its +75% bonus resulting in an attack every .57 sec, I've had to keep counting hits until I get to even number for seconds.
Getting an even number was hard though, so then next best thing was 5.09 seconds and 13.07 seconds. I've used two different numbers to see how the damage compares since Frenzy+Maniac takes 6 hits to get to its max DPS.
This is what I came up with.
FRENZY + MANIAC
- 5.09 seconds = 7 Hits = 850%
- 13.07 Seconds = 21 Hits = 2670%
BASH + ONSLAUGHT
- 5.09 Seconds = 5 Hits = 970%
- 13.07 Seconds = 13 Hits = 2522%
I thinks right
Frenzy + Maniac (Maxed)
- 7 Hits in 4 Seconds x 130% = 910%
Bash + Onslaught
- 4 Hits in 4 Seconds x 194 = 776%
Over all Frenzy is probably better because unless something can be killed in 5 hits (from Bash) Frenzy has buffed and is now doing more DPS.
Of course even if something does die in 3 hits from Bash+Onslaught, you're only 3 strikes away from doing the same amount of damage with Frenzy+Maniac and the skill has now buffed and doing more than Bash anyway.
Every bash+onslaught will also give +15 fury, 6+3, +3,+3 for the revereberations.
Frenzy would generate +6 fury per hit.
So that means those 7 hits of frenzy generated 42 fury. While the 4 bashes generated 60 fury in the same amount of time. Those 21 frenzy hits would generate 126 fury, and the 13 bashes generates 195. You can go from 0 fury to full in 10 bashes. But it would take 25 hits with frenzy to reach full fury.
That would be a consideration for a max fury build.
The difference between Frenzy and Bash is the addiotanal 6 (+3+3) Fury from the reverberations on Bash's Maniac Rune.
Frenzy - 7 x 6+3 = 63
Bash (+Maniac) - 4 x 6+3 + 3+3 = 60
Frenzy - 21 x 6+3 = 189
Bash (+Maniac) - 13 x 6+3 + 3+3 = 195
Bash makes more Fury but not initially since the attack speed makes make more Fury faster. Eventually though, the increased Fury bonus exceeds what can be generated from additional hits
It's like comparing a Axe to a Chainsaw, the Axe can cut deeper with a single swing and would be better for small branches but the Chainsaw will cut through the trunk of the tree faster than the Axe.
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
Has this been confirmed explicitly for Frenzy?
No doubt about general haste bonuses stacking additively, that's displayed in the char screen, so beta play could confirm it. The Frenzy stacks however didn't make it into the char screen because they only apply to Frenzy itself. So I'd consider it more probable to be a separate multiplier. Otherwise that skill could become extremely outclassed by Bash given some haste gear and the dual wield bonus (if anyone doesn't use a shield).
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450