Could everybody in this topic that has previously voted please come back and answer the survey in the first post? It will provide us with charts that are much easier to read.
Oh, I think, there was a blue post stating sth like every attack uses your "onehand"-slot. But you're right, ingame I can produce very different damage numbers between a 15.6 and a 6.3 dps weapon dual wiedling both at once. edit: too tired, I believe you for now and think about it tomorrow
Seems to be better than I thought it was.
He never said every.
He said most.
Getting back to this for a moment. Dual Wield is in a really sad state imo. You can actually decrease your damage output going from 1h to DW(if the offhand is significantly weaker than the mainhand). That should just not be the case.
Oh, I think, there was a blue post stating sth like every attack uses your "onehand"-slot. But you're right, ingame I can produce very different damage numbers between a 15.6 and a 6.3 dps weapon dual wiedling both at once. edit: too tired, I believe you for now and think about it tomorrow
Seems to be better than I thought it was.
He never said every.
He said most.
Getting back to this for a moment. Dual Wield is in a really sad state imo. You can actually decrease your damage output going from 1h to DW(if the offhand is significantly weaker than the mainhand). That should just not be the case.
I disagree. That SHOULD be the case. What would be the point of dual wielding if swinging your off-hand that did terrible damage didn't actually do the damage of your off-hand? IT would be completely pointless.
Dual wielding is far from a sad state. It is in a very viable and balanced state. All 3 forms of weaponry are extremely viable due to this.
Oh, I think, there was a blue post stating sth like every attack uses your "onehand"-slot. But you're right, ingame I can produce very different damage numbers between a 15.6 and a 6.3 dps weapon dual wiedling both at once. edit: too tired, I believe you for now and think about it tomorrow
Seems to be better than I thought it was.
He never said every.
He said most.
Getting back to this for a moment. Dual Wield is in a really sad state imo. You can actually decrease your damage output going from 1h to DW(if the offhand is significantly weaker than the mainhand). That should just not be the case.
I disagree. That SHOULD be the case. What would be the point of dual wielding if swinging your off-hand that did terrible damage didn't actually do the damage of your off-hand? IT would be completely pointless.
Dual wielding is far from a sad state. It is in a very viable and balanced state. All 3 forms of weaponry are extremely viable due to this.
Eh.. no! Not at all. I mean, if you already swing a hammer and use your left hand for nothing, then adding even the tieniest of needles into this left hand should increase your damage. But this is not the case.
I never said, this needle should do the same damage as the hammer, no way, but it shouldn't decrease damage, that's never been in any DW implementation I am aware of. You'd do less damage than that sword & board pala next to you. Ridiculous
Oh, I think, there was a blue post stating sth like every attack uses your "onehand"-slot. But you're right, ingame I can produce very different damage numbers between a 15.6 and a 6.3 dps weapon dual wiedling both at once. edit: too tired, I believe you for now and think about it tomorrow
Seems to be better than I thought it was.
He never said every.
He said most.
Getting back to this for a moment. Dual Wield is in a really sad state imo. You can actually decrease your damage output going from 1h to DW(if the offhand is significantly weaker than the mainhand). That should just not be the case.
I disagree. That SHOULD be the case. What would be the point of dual wielding if swinging your off-hand that did terrible damage didn't actually do the damage of your off-hand? IT would be completely pointless.
Dual wielding is far from a sad state. It is in a very viable and balanced state. All 3 forms of weaponry are extremely viable due to this.
Eh.. no! Not at all. I mean, if you already swing a hammer and use your left hand for nothing, then adding even the tieniest of needles into this left hand should increase your damage. But this is not the case.
I never said, this needle should do the same damage as the hammer, no way, but it shouldn't decrease damage, that's never been in any DW implementation I am aware of. You'd do less damage than that sword & board pala next to you. Ridiculous
It's not at all ridiculous. A tiny needle WOULDN'T increase your damage.
You're forgetting that dual wielding automatically gets a bonus 15% attack speed. It swings faster than sword and board - period. Therefore it does more damage. I believe it should decrease your damage. If you have a nerfbat in your off-hand and a chainsaw in your main-hand, you SHOULD swing for your off-hand damage when you use your off-hand.
It's like that in like every other game I've ever played. When you swing with your Off-hand, it does your off-hand damage.
You're forgetting that dual wielding automatically gets a bonus 15% attack speed. It swings faster than sword and board - period. Therefore it does more damage. I believe it should decrease your damage.
No, I'm actually aware of the speed bonus. I'm a little confused about your opinion switching from one phrase to another, but whatever.
Let's try a little calculation. So your mainhand weapon does x dps. If you use it alone with no offhand, you do x dps. If you equip a shield, you may even do a little more depending on it's stats. Now if you equip a second weapon with y dps, your x dps are gone and -simply put- morphed into (x+y)/2 * 1.15.
So, if x = y, you gain 15% damage. But if y < x, you can actually get less than x dps as a result if the difference is big enough. I checked this ingame, so if you don't believe me, try it on your own.
So, to put it a little extreme: DW is only viable, if you have your one, big, amazing weapon twice. Odds are, your best two weapons at any given point will vary in dps.
As a result, the offhand plays an important role, which is good, but this role is called "mirror the mainhand or drag you down". Still don't like this
edit: tl/dr version:
Equipping an offhand does not equal a bonus in this game because it reduces the output of your mainhand, which it shouldn't. Never ever
At this time i plan on going 2 handed, using whatever the best weapon i can find is. Not going to stick to any specific weapon type. Higher difficulties i would like to try 1 hander+shield. again, whichever one hander does the most damage
Will be looking for some nice, slow 1handers with barbcentric stats, and mighty weapons / maces should be ideal (I think). WIll be running a build similar to this if viable.
You're forgetting that dual wielding automatically gets a bonus 15% attack speed. It swings faster than sword and board - period. Therefore it does more damage. I believe it should decrease your damage.
No, I'm actually aware of the speed bonus. I'm a little confused about your opinion switching from one phrase to another, but whatever.
Let's try a little calculation. So your mainhand weapon does x dps. If you use it alone with no offhand, you do x dps. If you equip a shield, you may even do a little more depending on it's stats. Now if you equip a second weapon with y dps, your x dps are gone and -simply put- morphed into (x+y)/2 * 1.15.
So, if x = y, you gain 15% damage. But if y < x, you can actually get less than x dps as a result if the difference is big enough. I checked this ingame, so if you don't believe me, try it on your own.
So, to put it a little extreme: DW is only viable, if you have your one, big, amazing weapon twice. Odds are, your best two weapons at any given point will vary in dps.
As a result, the offhand plays an important role, which is good, but this role is called "mirror the mainhand or drag you down". Still don't like this
And here we have the problem of making DPS so important. so the Off-Hand can reduce your DPS, yes, if it low enough. But, It does not reduce the damage of your Main Hand weapon. That weapon's damage is still what it was, and will be the damage of attacks that use the Main Hand damage (like most Fury spenders and probably Leap Attack etc.) but attacks that alternate will first use the Main Hand weapon, dealing massive damage, then use the Off-Hand.
If your total DPS didn't drop then it would be like equipping a spoon that you never use and attacking faster with your Main Hand. That doesn't make sense. If you don't attack with your Off-Hand you don't get greater Attack Speed, when you attack with your Off-Hand, you should deal the damage of that weapon (you should not deal Beastly Axe of Critical Demise damage with you Spoon of Noodles, but instead your Spoon of Noodles damage). This results in the DPS drop if you use an Off-Hand with insufficiently high damage.
It would be like saying that x+x+x+x should always be less than x+y+x+y+x just because there are more numbers. but 10+10+10+10 is obviously going to be greater than 10+1+10+1+10. From what I can determine with some mental math you need to be within 10% to not lose DPS, and this does not seem too big a problem.
Edit for readability
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
You're forgetting that dual wielding automatically gets a bonus 15% attack speed. It swings faster than sword and board - period. Therefore it does more damage. I believe it should decrease your damage.
No, I'm actually aware of the speed bonus. I'm a little confused about your opinion switching from one phrase to another, but whatever.
Let's try a little calculation. So your mainhand weapon does x dps. If you use it alone with no offhand, you do x dps. If you equip a shield, you may even do a little more depending on it's stats. Now if you equip a second weapon with y dps, your x dps are gone and -simply put- morphed into (x+y)/2 * 1.15.
So, if x = y, you gain 15% damage. But if y < x, you can actually get less than x dps as a result if the difference is big enough. I checked this ingame, so if you don't believe me, try it on your own.
So, to put it a little extreme: DW is only viable, if you have your one, big, amazing weapon twice. Odds are, your best two weapons at any given point will vary in dps.
As a result, the offhand plays an important role, which is good, but this role is called "mirror the mainhand or drag you down". Still don't like this
edit: tl/dr version:
Equipping an offhand does not equal a bonus in this game because it reduces the output of your mainhand, which it shouldn't. Never ever
Your TLDR is completely false. You're still not understanding how it works, so I give up.
It's been explained to you by multiple people.
It's like this in multiple games. You need to quit saying in THIS game.
In ANY game where you can equip an off-hand weapon, your off-hand will do your off-hand damage.
Go into any game where you can dual wield. Equip a level 60 weapon in your main hand, and a level 1 weapon in your off-hand. You'll have similar results.
What shall I say? This is so ludicrous.
You do realize that your mainhand weapon of doom will swing less often and deal less overall damage if you equip any offhand weapon? Fine. You actually want this? Amazing. You state this has been the case in any other game so far? Unlikely. For example, your 2.80 mainhand in WoW would have hit every 2.80 secs no matter your offhand. It didn't go to 5.60 like your suggesting
I have no problem with the offhand weapon of suck doing it's crappy damage, that's the way it should be and I never said otherwise.. But equiping an _additional_ weapon shouldn't decrease your output, period.
What shall I say? This is so ludicrous.
You do realize that your mainhand weapon of doom will swing less often and deal less overall damage if you equip any offhand weapon? Fine. You actually want this? Amazing. You state this has been the case in any other game so far? Unlikely. For example, your 2.80 mainhand in WoW would have hit every 2.80 secs no matter your offhand. It didn't go to 5.60 like your suggesting
I have no problem with the offhand weapon of suck doing it's crappy damage, that's the way it should be and I never said otherwise.. But equiping an _additional_ weapon shouldn't decrease your output, period.
The difference between WoW and D3 is that we don't rely on auto attacks for our damage in D3. The classes that can dual wield usually have 18-30% of their damage as auto attack damage. In Diablo 3 we will NEVER stop using abilities. We also don't have a GCD.
If you didn't keep swinging your main hand in WoW there'd be no point to play. (This is due to the fact that you don't spam skills)
Diablo 3 - like WoW, has skills that use the main hand weapon for damage. Some of the skills obviously cycle - but for all intents and purposes you're claiming there's an imbalance on the premise that there are auto attacks.
It's fine. At this point you're just wanting dual wielding to be better than every other option. I can re-assure you that it is fairly balanced and if you changed it to your idea - there'd be no reason to pick anything BUT dual wielding.
Also: at this point, I believe it to be best if we agree to disagree.
If you are concerned that an Off-Hand weapon will lower your DPS then keep a sheild handy and if you don't have an Item that can compare to your best 1-hander put the shield on. You get the benefits of a second items properties but never have a poor weapon to swing. It makes sense that a bad weapon would lower your ability to do damage when you try to use it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
if you don't have an Item that can compare to your best 1-hander put the shield on.
[...]
It makes sense that a bad weapon would lower your ability to do damage when you try to use it.
Your first phrase is correct, that's why we will all be 2handed for the most time because we just won't have that second 1handed weapon of doom and (almost) anything less than that will be less damage than even s/s. If you don't consider this stupid, well, your choice.
On the second phrase I just cannot agree. There are only 3 classes that can dual wield and this means they are trained to do so. So whatever they do with their left hand wouldn't hurt the ability of the right hand. Maybe we as humans would have coordination issues, but not these "heroes".
And panda: I just don't get wth you're talking about, let's keep it at that.
if you don't have an Item that can compare to your best 1-hander put the shield on.
[...]
It makes sense that a bad weapon would lower your ability to do damage when you try to use it.
Your first phrase is correct, that's why we will all be 2handed for the most time because we just won't have that second 1handed weapon of doom and (almost) anything less than that will be less damage than even s/s. If you don't consider this stupid, well, your choice.
On the second phrase I just cannot agree. There are only 3 classes that can dual wield and this means they are trained to do so. So whatever they do with their left hand wouldn't hurt the ability of the right hand. Maybe we as humans would have coordination issues, but not these "heroes".
And panda: I just don't get wth you're talking about, let's keep it at that.
At this point I will state that I would appreciate if the topic was no longer derailed into a theory-crafting or optimization topic. This thread was created as an inquiry about which weapon-types people will choose. (Not which one is better.)
For my monk I would like to have fist weapons, maces , or swords. any of them would make me happy. I never really liked axes or spears. and using duel daggers is just not my thing. Im not a rogue.
Getting back to this for a moment. Dual Wield is in a really sad state imo. You can actually decrease your damage output going from 1h to DW(if the offhand is significantly weaker than the mainhand). That should just not be the case.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I disagree. That SHOULD be the case. What would be the point of dual wielding if swinging your off-hand that did terrible damage didn't actually do the damage of your off-hand? IT would be completely pointless.
Dual wielding is far from a sad state. It is in a very viable and balanced state. All 3 forms of weaponry are extremely viable due to this.
Eh.. no! Not at all. I mean, if you already swing a hammer and use your left hand for nothing, then adding even the tieniest of needles into this left hand should increase your damage. But this is not the case.
I never said, this needle should do the same damage as the hammer, no way, but it shouldn't decrease damage, that's never been in any DW implementation I am aware of. You'd do less damage than that sword & board pala next to you. Ridiculous
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
It's not at all ridiculous. A tiny needle WOULDN'T increase your damage.
You're forgetting that dual wielding automatically gets a bonus 15% attack speed. It swings faster than sword and board - period. Therefore it does more damage. I believe it should decrease your damage. If you have a nerfbat in your off-hand and a chainsaw in your main-hand, you SHOULD swing for your off-hand damage when you use your off-hand.
It's like that in like every other game I've ever played. When you swing with your Off-hand, it does your off-hand damage.
No, I'm actually aware of the speed bonus. I'm a little confused about your opinion switching from one phrase to another, but whatever.
Let's try a little calculation. So your mainhand weapon does x dps. If you use it alone with no offhand, you do x dps. If you equip a shield, you may even do a little more depending on it's stats. Now if you equip a second weapon with y dps, your x dps are gone and -simply put- morphed into (x+y)/2 * 1.15.
So, if x = y, you gain 15% damage. But if y < x, you can actually get less than x dps as a result if the difference is big enough. I checked this ingame, so if you don't believe me, try it on your own.
So, to put it a little extreme: DW is only viable, if you have your one, big, amazing weapon twice. Odds are, your best two weapons at any given point will vary in dps.
As a result, the offhand plays an important role, which is good, but this role is called "mirror the mainhand or drag you down". Still don't like this
edit: tl/dr version:
Equipping an offhand does not equal a bonus in this game because it reduces the output of your mainhand, which it shouldn't. Never ever
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WSQVik!cVg!cZccac
And here we have the problem of making DPS so important. so the Off-Hand can reduce your DPS, yes, if it low enough. But, It does not reduce the damage of your Main Hand weapon. That weapon's damage is still what it was, and will be the damage of attacks that use the Main Hand damage (like most Fury spenders and probably Leap Attack etc.) but attacks that alternate will first use the Main Hand weapon, dealing massive damage, then use the Off-Hand.
If your total DPS didn't drop then it would be like equipping a spoon that you never use and attacking faster with your Main Hand. That doesn't make sense. If you don't attack with your Off-Hand you don't get greater Attack Speed, when you attack with your Off-Hand, you should deal the damage of that weapon (you should not deal Beastly Axe of Critical Demise damage with you Spoon of Noodles, but instead your Spoon of Noodles damage). This results in the DPS drop if you use an Off-Hand with insufficiently high damage.
It would be like saying that x+x+x+x should always be less than x+y+x+y+x just because there are more numbers. but 10+10+10+10 is obviously going to be greater than 10+1+10+1+10. From what I can determine with some mental math you need to be within 10% to not lose DPS, and this does not seem too big a problem.
Edit for readability
Your TLDR is completely false. You're still not understanding how it works, so I give up.
It's been explained to you by multiple people.
It's like this in multiple games. You need to quit saying in THIS game.
In ANY game where you can equip an off-hand weapon, your off-hand will do your off-hand damage.
Go into any game where you can dual wield. Equip a level 60 weapon in your main hand, and a level 1 weapon in your off-hand. You'll have similar results.
You do realize that your mainhand weapon of doom will swing less often and deal less overall damage if you equip any offhand weapon? Fine. You actually want this? Amazing. You state this has been the case in any other game so far? Unlikely. For example, your 2.80 mainhand in WoW would have hit every 2.80 secs no matter your offhand. It didn't go to 5.60 like your suggesting
I have no problem with the offhand weapon of suck doing it's crappy damage, that's the way it should be and I never said otherwise.. But equiping an _additional_ weapon shouldn't decrease your output, period.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
The difference between WoW and D3 is that we don't rely on auto attacks for our damage in D3. The classes that can dual wield usually have 18-30% of their damage as auto attack damage. In Diablo 3 we will NEVER stop using abilities. We also don't have a GCD.
If you didn't keep swinging your main hand in WoW there'd be no point to play. (This is due to the fact that you don't spam skills)
Diablo 3 - like WoW, has skills that use the main hand weapon for damage. Some of the skills obviously cycle - but for all intents and purposes you're claiming there's an imbalance on the premise that there are auto attacks.
It's fine. At this point you're just wanting dual wielding to be better than every other option. I can re-assure you that it is fairly balanced and if you changed it to your idea - there'd be no reason to pick anything BUT dual wielding.
Also: at this point, I believe it to be best if we agree to disagree.
Your first phrase is correct, that's why we will all be 2handed for the most time because we just won't have that second 1handed weapon of doom and (almost) anything less than that will be less damage than even s/s. If you don't consider this stupid, well, your choice.
On the second phrase I just cannot agree. There are only 3 classes that can dual wield and this means they are trained to do so. So whatever they do with their left hand wouldn't hurt the ability of the right hand. Maybe we as humans would have coordination issues, but not these "heroes".
And panda: I just don't get wth you're talking about, let's keep it at that.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
At this point I will state that I would appreciate if the topic was no longer derailed into a theory-crafting or optimization topic. This thread was created as an inquiry about which weapon-types people will choose. (Not which one is better.)
Thank you.
Really?!?!? I'm not the only one?! Yay!