Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
I don't know how elemental percentage is a higher damage increase. At 50% critical strike chance, 100% CHD, adds 50% damage effectively (even at half of this amount, it's still more). Whereas with ele%, the first bonus is the most significant, with more and more of it becoming less of a relative increase. I'd say primary stat isn't as good, but for amulets 100% CHD is king.
I'll tell you. Let's say you have 20% ele dmg from bracers, 400 chd and 50% crit chance. If you roll ele dmg on your amulet your overall dmg goes from 120 to 140% and it's a 20/120 = 16.66% increase. If you roll 100 chd it goes from 100%+(400%*50%)=300% to 100+(500*50)=350%. The increase is exactly the same in this scenario (50/300). With less elemental dmg or lower difference between chd and chc, elemental dmg would be better. I would probably go for chd anyway, it's really good on amulets.
Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
I don't know how elemental percentage is a higher damage increase. At 50% critical strike chance, 100% CHD, adds 50% damage effectively (even at half of this amount, it's still more). Whereas with ele%, the first bonus is the most significant, with more and more of it becoming less of a relative increase. I'd say primary stat isn't as good, but for amulets 100% CHD is king.
It's because CHD is additive with itself and multiplicative with other stats, just as elemental damage is.
Imagine your base damage is 10, you have 100% crit chance.
10 x 100% CHD = 20 = 100% increase
200% = 30 = 50% increase
300% = 40 = 33.33% increase
400% = 50 = 25% increase
500% = 60 = 20% increase
600% = 70 = 16.66%
It's obviously quite a bit more complex than this with the scale factors between all of the damage stats, but you see that 100% CHD damage isn't always the same as 50% damage at 50% crit chance and 20% elemental damage can be superior depending on these factors.
Yeah and you can get a much higher percentage of one stat than the other...? Relative increase of the stat (16%) in the first example provided by Liqurius, the math seems a little quirky. You do it this way= 400%*50% and somehow get 300%? 50% chance to critical for 400% damage is a x2 damage on average. The formulas are definitely off here. Going up to 500% critical hit damage is a 2.5x modifier, which is a 25% increase, not a 16.6%.
As for elemental damage, as well as the previous % from Bigbazz seem a little wonky. Not including factors is exactly why this is a problem, especially when determining damage.
However I can do the same thing as you:
100 x 1.2 = 120 (20%)
100 x 1.4 = 140 (20% increase, but 16.67% relative increase).
There are two points from this conversation. #1 is, is that elemental % damage decreases in relative value significantly faster and at two items @20% rolls. In your analysis, it takes 600% (or 550% from items) CHD to get to the same level of relative damage increase in terms of stats, which requires significantly more items. Honestly, the only time 20% is superior is when you have none of it and have already managed to reach 600% CHD at over 50% CHC, which I believe is impossible, discussing amulets in a vacuum. You're also confusing relative value versus absolute value, this is the formula's purpose that you are utilizing: 50% CHD at 50% CHC is always a 25% increase in damage as the base damage always increases by the same amount.
The point is 100% CHD on an amulet holds significantly more value than 20% on an amulet. Especially because the caps for damage statistics on amulets tends to be highest. You can get 20% on rings/other slots, but you can not get CHD at this level for this item slot. That in consideration with the fact that if you have elemental % damage, the odds are that you do not have 600% CHD, thus making it better anyway. This does not even take into consideration the fact that every single skill must be of that element type, which isn't always the same.
Yeah and you can get a much higher percentage of one stat than the other...? Relative increase of the stat (16%) in the first example provided by Liqurius, the math seems a little quirky. You do it this way= 400%*50% and somehow get 300%? 50% chance to critical for 400% damage is a x2 damage on average. The formulas are definitely off here. Going up to 500% critical hit damage is a 2.5x modifier, which is a 25% increase, not a 16.6%.
As for elemental damage, as well as the previous % from Bigbazz seem a little wonky. Not including factors is exactly why this is a problem, especially when determining damage.
However I can do the same thing as you:
100 x 1.2 = 120 (20%)
100 x 1.4 = 140 (20% increase, but 16.67% relative increase).
There are two points from this conversation. #1 is, is that elemental % damage decreases in relative value significantly faster and at two items @20% rolls. In your analysis, it takes 600% (or 450% from items) CHD to get to the same level of relative damage increase in terms of stats, which requires significantly more items. Honestly, the only time 20% is superior is when you have none of it and have already managed to reach 600% CHD at over 50% CHC, which I believe is impossible, discussing amulets in a vacuum. You're also confusing relative value versus absolute value, this is the formula's purpose that you are utilizing: 50% CHD at 50% CHC is always a 25% increase in damage as the base damage always increases by the same amount.
The point is 100% CHD on an amulet holds significantly more value than 20% on an amulet. Especially because the caps for damage statistics on amulets tends to be highest. You can get 20% on rings/other slots, but you can not get CHD at this level for this item slot. That in consideration with the fact that if you have elemental % damage, the odds are that you do not have 600% CHD, thus making it better anyway. This does not even take into consideration the fact that every single skill must be of that element type, which isn't always the same.
I also mentioned that Elemental % damage scales additively with itself in the first line of my last post, your whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% chance to crit, while you're comparing that with a real situation. By all means if you have 100% chance to crit like in my simple example of the scaling above then Crit % damage is going to be considerably stronger.
At 50% CC your numbers are
100 = 50
200 = 33.3
300 = 25
400 = 20
500 = 16.66
Elemental %
20% - 20%
40% - 16.66%
But then consider that you may well not have 50% crit, you could be at 45% crit and the neck roll you just spend 60 souls/gems on has only given you a 90% CHD bonus. This is the real world and not the perfect world, and in the real world we don't always get exactly what we want. What is for sure though is that getting 20% elemental damage bonus is a lot easier than getting 100% CHD.
As I said in my very first post that you challenged
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases.
And yes, in a perfect world you're also assuming that every single skill you use is being modified by that elemental %. Which simply is not the case for every class, especially Barbarians, which you somehow missed!
If you read my post, I said "You're also confusing relative value versus absolute value, this is the formula's purpose that you are utilizing: 50% CHD at 50% CHC is always a 25% increase in damage as the base damage always increases by the same amount." Absolute value of elemental percentage will be lower when you're referring to people capable of reaching 500+ CHD. At 50% (or 45%, or whatever number(s) you attempt to lower it to outside of real/likely values) CHC, the point still remains, which is why I literally made that statement, not sure how you missed that and why you decided to do the same 'number crunching' again. A little redundant :/
I feel like I must reiterate a point since "my whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% crit", despite that not being the case :/ Whether it is 100% or not, the fact of that statement remains true. 20% elemental damage is not 20% damage increase. You must assume: A) all skills and all damage are of that element type (first assumption). Second: you also must assume a certain percentage of damage if A) isn't true, has to be of a certain total damage as well (you don't want to get elemental percentage dmg if you're doing something like 50/50 multi-elements, obviously). The statement that I made stands true. The statement you're making is assumption based and still, you say things like "this is the real world we don't always get what we want", but somehow forget to consider that not all skills may be of the same element. The person making assumptions about not getting what we want and having to bring our thinking back to reality, is not me :/ This is where the Barbarian point is most important: he is likely to be involved in multi-elements (lightning/physical - cota - physical DD, Rend, WW - lightning/physical). Damage spread for Barbarians most likely is not 100% on one element...so again, CHD wins.
It simply is not a correct statement to say that 20% elemental damage is better than 100% CHD at anything other than terribly to moderately geared characters. There is extra utility in choosing whatever you want, in almost every single case it is a better damage increase and perfect, real, fake, pony or whatever world you feel like referencing here or not, it's just better situationally or otherwise.
The challenge still stands, sorry. Should read what the person challenging you says so that when you respond you deserve respect. It shows when I said: "Honestly, the only time 20% is superior is when you have none of it and have already managed to reach 600% CHD at over 50% CHC, which I believe is impossible, discussing amulets in a vacuum." And you said: "your whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% chance to crit," Hell, my whole post wasn't even based off of your 'math', it was based off of your incorrect assumptions and interesting conclusions.
1. All of my damage is physical and for Greater Rifting all barbarians are playing Physical, there is no situation where you would need to split elements outside of T6 speed farming where it is completely irrelevant anyway.
2. I currently have 46% crit and 600% CHD on my Barbarian with my current build.
I could trade the 97% crit I have on my neck for 20% physical damage and see an increase in damage, or I could juggle stats around to bump up crit and increase the value of that CHD. I've shown you the math and I don't really understand what you're trying to argue?
Whether it is 100% or not, the fact of that statement remains true. 20% elemental damage is not 20% damage increase.
If I'm running Physical damage skills then yes it is 20% damage. Whirlwind (Blood Funnel) and Rend (Bloodbath/Blood Lust), Bash (Punish), Furious Charge (Merciless Assault) are the most commonly used abilities for the various Wastes builds at the moment and all of them are physical.
20% Physical damage is 20% damage.. If my attack is doing 100m before the 20% Physical then it will be doing 120m with the 20%. A further 20% (on neck) would boost that to 140m damage (a 16.66% damage increase over 120m).
There are 2 viable builds right now, one of them using Bul Kathos weapons and the other using IK, and since Stone of Jordan is no longer an optimal ring for Barbarian we can safely assume the only two slots a Barbarian will use with % elemental damage is Bracers and Neck.
That means the maximum we will see on our gear is going to be 40% element.
I just had a Cameo dropped with 700 str, 5ias, 8.5cc and a socket.
Is it better to reroll the str or the 5ias for crit dmg?
AS to chd
Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
I don't know how elemental percentage is a higher damage increase. At 50% critical strike chance, 100% CHD, adds 50% damage effectively (even at half of this amount, it's still more). Whereas with ele%, the first bonus is the most significant, with more and more of it becoming less of a relative increase. I'd say primary stat isn't as good, but for amulets 100% CHD is king.
I'll tell you. Let's say you have 20% ele dmg from bracers, 400 chd and 50% crit chance. If you roll ele dmg on your amulet your overall dmg goes from 120 to 140% and it's a 20/120 = 16.66% increase. If you roll 100 chd it goes from 100%+(400%*50%)=300% to 100+(500*50)=350%. The increase is exactly the same in this scenario (50/300). With less elemental dmg or lower difference between chd and chc, elemental dmg would be better. I would probably go for chd anyway, it's really good on amulets.
It's because CHD is additive with itself and multiplicative with other stats, just as elemental damage is.
Imagine your base damage is 10, you have 100% crit chance.
10 x 100% CHD = 20 = 100% increase
200% = 30 = 50% increase
300% = 40 = 33.33% increase
400% = 50 = 25% increase
500% = 60 = 20% increase
600% = 70 = 16.66%
It's obviously quite a bit more complex than this with the scale factors between all of the damage stats, but you see that 100% CHD damage isn't always the same as 50% damage at 50% crit chance and 20% elemental damage can be superior depending on these factors.
Yeah and you can get a much higher percentage of one stat than the other...? Relative increase of the stat (16%) in the first example provided by Liqurius, the math seems a little quirky. You do it this way= 400%*50% and somehow get 300%? 50% chance to critical for 400% damage is a x2 damage on average. The formulas are definitely off here. Going up to 500% critical hit damage is a 2.5x modifier, which is a 25% increase, not a 16.6%.
As for elemental damage, as well as the previous % from Bigbazz seem a little wonky. Not including factors is exactly why this is a problem, especially when determining damage.
However I can do the same thing as you:
100 x 1.2 = 120 (20%)
100 x 1.4 = 140 (20% increase, but 16.67% relative increase).
There are two points from this conversation. #1 is, is that elemental % damage decreases in relative value significantly faster and at two items @20% rolls. In your analysis, it takes 600% (or 550% from items) CHD to get to the same level of relative damage increase in terms of stats, which requires significantly more items. Honestly, the only time 20% is superior is when you have none of it and have already managed to reach 600% CHD at over 50% CHC, which I believe is impossible, discussing amulets in a vacuum. You're also confusing relative value versus absolute value, this is the formula's purpose that you are utilizing: 50% CHD at 50% CHC is always a 25% increase in damage as the base damage always increases by the same amount.
The point is 100% CHD on an amulet holds significantly more value than 20% on an amulet. Especially because the caps for damage statistics on amulets tends to be highest. You can get 20% on rings/other slots, but you can not get CHD at this level for this item slot. That in consideration with the fact that if you have elemental % damage, the odds are that you do not have 600% CHD, thus making it better anyway. This does not even take into consideration the fact that every single skill must be of that element type, which isn't always the same.
I also mentioned that Elemental % damage scales additively with itself in the first line of my last post, your whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% chance to crit, while you're comparing that with a real situation. By all means if you have 100% chance to crit like in my simple example of the scaling above then Crit % damage is going to be considerably stronger.
At 50% CC your numbers are
100 = 50
200 = 33.3
300 = 25
400 = 20
500 = 16.66
Elemental %
20% - 20%
40% - 16.66%
But then consider that you may well not have 50% crit, you could be at 45% crit and the neck roll you just spend 60 souls/gems on has only given you a 90% CHD bonus. This is the real world and not the perfect world, and in the real world we don't always get exactly what we want. What is for sure though is that getting 20% elemental damage bonus is a lot easier than getting 100% CHD.
As I said in my very first post that you challenged
And relative it is
And yes, in a perfect world you're also assuming that every single skill you use is being modified by that elemental %. Which simply is not the case for every class, especially Barbarians, which you somehow missed!
If you read my post, I said "You're also confusing relative value versus absolute value, this is the formula's purpose that you are utilizing: 50% CHD at 50% CHC is always a 25% increase in damage as the base damage always increases by the same amount." Absolute value of elemental percentage will be lower when you're referring to people capable of reaching 500+ CHD. At 50% (or 45%, or whatever number(s) you attempt to lower it to outside of real/likely values) CHC, the point still remains, which is why I literally made that statement, not sure how you missed that and why you decided to do the same 'number crunching' again. A little redundant :/
I feel like I must reiterate a point since "my whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% crit", despite that not being the case :/ Whether it is 100% or not, the fact of that statement remains true. 20% elemental damage is not 20% damage increase. You must assume: A) all skills and all damage are of that element type (first assumption). Second: you also must assume a certain percentage of damage if A) isn't true, has to be of a certain total damage as well (you don't want to get elemental percentage dmg if you're doing something like 50/50 multi-elements, obviously). The statement that I made stands true. The statement you're making is assumption based and still, you say things like "this is the real world we don't always get what we want", but somehow forget to consider that not all skills may be of the same element. The person making assumptions about not getting what we want and having to bring our thinking back to reality, is not me :/ This is where the Barbarian point is most important: he is likely to be involved in multi-elements (lightning/physical - cota - physical DD, Rend, WW - lightning/physical). Damage spread for Barbarians most likely is not 100% on one element...so again, CHD wins.
It simply is not a correct statement to say that 20% elemental damage is better than 100% CHD at anything other than terribly to moderately geared characters. There is extra utility in choosing whatever you want, in almost every single case it is a better damage increase and perfect, real, fake, pony or whatever world you feel like referencing here or not, it's just better situationally or otherwise.
The challenge still stands, sorry. Should read what the person challenging you says so that when you respond you deserve respect. It shows when I said: "Honestly, the only time 20% is superior is when you have none of it and have already managed to reach 600% CHD at over 50% CHC, which I believe is impossible, discussing amulets in a vacuum." And you said: "your whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% chance to crit," Hell, my whole post wasn't even based off of your 'math', it was based off of your incorrect assumptions and interesting conclusions.
Well to counter your point
1. All of my damage is physical and for Greater Rifting all barbarians are playing Physical, there is no situation where you would need to split elements outside of T6 speed farming where it is completely irrelevant anyway.
2. I currently have 46% crit and 600% CHD on my Barbarian with my current build.
I could trade the 97% crit I have on my neck for 20% physical damage and see an increase in damage, or I could juggle stats around to bump up crit and increase the value of that CHD. I've shown you the math and I don't really understand what you're trying to argue?
If I'm running Physical damage skills then yes it is 20% damage. Whirlwind (Blood Funnel) and Rend (Bloodbath/Blood Lust), Bash (Punish), Furious Charge (Merciless Assault) are the most commonly used abilities for the various Wastes builds at the moment and all of them are physical.
20% Physical damage is 20% damage.. If my attack is doing 100m before the 20% Physical then it will be doing 120m with the 20%. A further 20% (on neck) would boost that to 140m damage (a 16.66% damage increase over 120m).
There are 2 viable builds right now, one of them using Bul Kathos weapons and the other using IK, and since Stone of Jordan is no longer an optimal ring for Barbarian we can safely assume the only two slots a Barbarian will use with % elemental damage is Bracers and Neck.
That means the maximum we will see on our gear is going to be 40% element.