i want actual talent tree so bad ! you can spend your points into different trees, im so sick and tired of current paragon system, i heard ppl say : you have to get specific set + build to progress, if this paragon talent tree was there ,all these wouldnt have happened !
for example : saders ------protection-------punishment---------fury----------lord commander
protection: mainly tank+ thorn, make GR 40+ tankable.
punishment: mainly elemental spells such as holy shot gun ,FOTH, hammers, condem, etc
fury: sweep, shield bash, blessed shield, life steal. hitting enemy to increase toughness or enemy damage reduction
How would adding a talent tree back in change anything at all? What we have right now is the same as a talent tree; Choose which skills / passives / paragon point stats you want to build your character. All a tree would do is change the interface. Sorry OP, but there's a reason they took them out of D3 and WoW; They don't actually serve a purpose, considering you can do the exact things you just listed as of right now, they are just fluff.
People have to remember why something is in the game before saying how it could be better.
In vanilla, you have lvl 1-60. People started complaining the game was not rewarding, and they added paragon points for every character, "rewarding" you for playing. Since people started complaining that this was forcing you to play only 1 char/class, they turned paragon account wide (in the same "tree", HC/SC, season/non-season).
Asking to turn this into a skill tree, takes away the entire idea the original paragon was for: reward people with 5 main stat for every so much time they played. I do agree that currently a certain amount of paragon is required already for certain builds (thus stepping away from the original paragon system), building a full skill tree (only useful if you can not reset it) turns the game around.
I'd prefer an addition to the current system. Something that gave the paragon level a real meaning. Say that you have 8 different "powerfull" bonuses -
-1 set item requirement (RoRG, basicly).
+1 Legendary gem socket.
+1 Passive slot.
+Cheat death mechanic.
And some "strong" legendary effects, such as Ice climbers (immunity to stuns/movement impairing) and Krelms bracers (immune to knockback and loss of control) to fill out the last slots - you get the general idea.
Every 100 levels, you'd get to pick one of these "bonuses", and add it to your paragons - so every 100 levels, instead of the gradual, incremental strength increase you can barely feel, the 100 milestone is *really* felt, because you suddenly have an extra legendary gem, or become immune to stuns etc.
what im trying to tell you guys is my idea is mainly to make some skills useful again ,to make more sets viable for end game. for example sader thorn set , this set is not viable at all ,totally wasted so this protection talent tree can make the set useful again , imagine you pop into a public game and see a sader tanking and dealing damage with thorn or using FOTH, hammers, blessed shield and etc ! .
talent trees------->skills---------->sets ( right !)
paragon points---------->sets (just one is viable per class)<--------------skills (wrong !)
Oh and while we are at it, every 200 paragon I want to pick immunity to 1 of the elemental damages, and every 50 paragon a slot for an extra ring (we do have 10 fingers, not only 2 right?). After that you just can stack more amulets, cause why only 1 thing around your neck?
And once you hit paragon 1000 you turn into godzilla without any skills apart from 200% movementspeed and a death aura so everything that gets within 60 yards insta dies.
Cause that all sounds balanced and totally not overpowered.
Now to be serious: since paragon is unlimited, why do you stop at 8 powerfull bonuses? Getting paragon gets a slot slower every level. Why should people not be rewarded to hit 900 paragon?
Because the effects you suggest are so strong, it would be a huge advantage. Where having 800+ paragon and thus everything maxed out now gives you some (up to a lot) of extra dps, you suggest full crowd controll immunity, only 4 pieces for a 6piece set (and 2 for a 4 piece, so you can have full blackthorne and marauder for example), a 6th passive (as hellfire can give a 5th and people complain about that being OP already), and a 7th passive as the extra cheat death (that is a passive for all classes i believe). I think you get my point that this will not only make you FEEL strong, it is completely imbalanced.
Paragon should be a small reward, not a game changing boost.
Oh and while we are at it, every 200 paragon I want to pick immunity to 1 of the elemental damages, and every 50 paragon a slot for an extra ring (we do have 10 fingers, not only 2 right?). After that you just can stack more amulets, cause why only 1 thing around your neck?
And once you hit paragon 1000 you turn into godzilla without any skills apart from 200% movementspeed and a death aura so everything that gets within 60 yards insta dies.
Cause that all sounds balanced and totally not overpowered.
Now to be serious: since paragon is unlimited, why do you stop at 8 powerfull bonuses? Getting paragon gets a slot slower every level. Why should people not be rewarded to hit 900 paragon?
Because the effects you suggest are so strong, it would be a huge advantage. Where having 800+ paragon and thus everything maxed out now gives you some (up to a lot) of extra dps, you suggest full crowd controll immunity, only 4 pieces for a 6piece set (and 2 for a 4 piece, so you can have full blackthorne and marauder for example), a 6th passive (as hellfire can give a 5th and people complain about that being OP already), and a 7th passive as the extra cheat death (that is a passive for all classes i believe). I think you get my point that this will not only make you FEEL strong, it is completely imbalanced.
Paragon should be a small reward, not a game changing boost.
First off, I stopped at 800 because that's the officall "cutoff" (where your points no longer gets to go into anything but pure main stat power), and because it's something very few people will ever reach. If trackers are to be belived, less than 150 people currently have over 800 paragon ( http://www.diablo3ladder.com/index.php?action=p1000&orderby=&action3=total&pos=7 )
Likewise, the fact that you think the bonuses are too powerfull and then go off and spout random nonsense that are ten times as strong as the stuff I've mentioned is just... Derp. Paragon should be meaningfull. It should be felt when we grow in power. It's the only way to progress your character consistently.
If you consider the examples I gave, the "legendary affixes" are so weak that you'd never consider using ice climbers or Krelms in any build, because there's much stronger items around. They're great situational affixes, though, and could help a fair few builds become more viable.
Likewise, almost every endgame spec (except for wizards, AFAIK) are forced to use a RoRG because of it's bonus. Make them mutually exclusive, and you can choose between a ring with the effect (and lose out on one of the ton of other more exciting rings) and gain a different ability to add to your spec, or you can gain the -1 set item and use another ring.
Likewise, please tell me where people complain about Hellfire being "OP". Wizards has no real use for it because we don't have enough strong passive skills. Monk's can't use it because they need a sunwoko neck. I can't speak for barbs, wds or crusaders, but out of the 3 I play, only my DH would want one - and even then, immunity necks are strong competitors. It's all about choise.
No one seems to complain about wizard's getting an extra cheat death through firebird's 4 set is "overpowered" in any way, either - despite the alternatives for other classes being stupid shit such as 20 mana regen for WD's, and 500 vit for barbs on their 6 sets.
But all this aside, I don't understand why you'd be against *being* strong, and *being* powerfull. Power creep is no longer something we need to be concerned about - greater rifts are only cleared up to level 51. Even if there was a hardcap at 100, we're only just past half the levels. I mean, let's be honest here - any well geared player are already doing bounties in 7-10 minutes depending on how hard the fucking cave entrances and the like are to track down, and rifts in 5 minutes or lower when playing T6. A single black hole obliterates an entire elite pack on my wizard on T6. I can't really *get* stronger - I've hit the point where more power won't equal more speed. So have a lot of other people. Adding a bonus like this would only change greater rifts, and that's irrelevant because they're infinite.
(And just to be completely clear: Even if we were to be given an extra passive, a cheat death, immunity to knockbacks, stuns and the like, another legendary gem, and 4-5 affixes akin to soeed boost on wrecking objects etc - things that are great fun and moderately usefull, but ultimately worthless compared to raw power gain - that'd still be far from enough to break us into G60 levels).
With everything said, I truly do believe that a game about grinding to become more powerfull should give you a bigger reward for levelling up your prestige than a picture change.
For the paragon 800, while less than 150 people have that now, it"s almost 1500 that are 700+. Also don't forget we do have seasons now, the numbers will go up after the first season when all xp gets merged. (got someone on my list thats 700+ on both season and non-season, but not in your 800+ list). 2.0 is only released for 7 months, 22 months after vanilla. So I don't think that few people will ever go past 800.
Since day 1 people have been asking for better, stronger, more. While my "random nonsense" is totally OP and would be crazy, I did already see stuff like that mentioned (maybe not the godzilla, but crazy stuff almost just as powerful). As for the legendary affixes being "so weak", I must disagree. First of, a lot of monks do use ice climbers. For other items (that are not part of your set, like bracers, belt, ...), people often pick dps items, because they want to feel strong. Nobody forces you into lacuni or strongarm over krelms. If you got plenty of damage anyway (as you say later on), put on krelms and use the affix...
For the rorg you are right, many people use it, need it. They use the ring because they drop the weakest piece of the set for a stronger alternative. But they need the other 5 pieces as well. Make all the set options obtainable with paragon as well, because every item probably has a better alternative but is needed to complete the set? (first 100 you get 1st bonus, 200 you get 2nd, 300 the 3rd, like a tree?) Cause yeah, I can't use the strong BT 4 piece when I go with my full class set.
For the HF amu, look in the forum for threads to make keys drop 100% or give the amu better rolls so you have to farm less. In almost every single topic it is mentioned that the amu is needed cause it is so game changing. Not exactly "complaining" it is OP, but complaining they don't get the OP item. However you want to read it, all those posts confirm the amu is very strong (maybe not for all classes).
The reason why I am against "being strong" is the evolution I did see in the game. Either people say the game is too hard/items not strong enough, or game too easy after a buff. And with stronger "buffs" for playing more (like your paragon suggestion) will make the difference between long term players and casuals even bigger. If you would make paragon feel you REALLY strong, we would need T30 soon to be challenging. Think about how confusing and demotivating that is for someone playing maybe 5 hours per week on T2. In greater rifts they understand it is a challenge, and they will never be top. For "normal farming" they often don't get why they can't farm the highest difficulty (even slow).
You say it yourself, you do T6 rifts in under 5 minutes. Tell me how you are not strong? If we keep the items/stats/skills/everything the same as they are now, you can get more skilled in playing, improve your gear to perfection, maybe theorycraft a new build that performs better (lightning dh that only some time after patch really got known for example), and see yourself improve. Would you really feel better if every month you could do a grift 1-10 levels higher without changing any gear or skills, just because you unlock/get a new affix? Or would you feel better because you can see your skill and build evolve, clearing that grift a bit faster every day, failing the next one just a bit less, until you beat it? I pick the second.
I think our vision on grinding might be to different. I grind for my gear to improve. The paragon points are an extra bonus while doing so.
PS: blizzard said they will introduce 1 powerful legendary for every class each season, making you stronger already. I love to have epic items. With every change that happens, almost all gear becomes worthless (think about how many 2h you salvaged because not competitive, raekor set for barb, sunwuko set for monk, cold/lightning items for dh, phys items for sader, ...). Lucky there is seasons now and we will start over anyway, but that's 1 of the reasons I dislike changes as well: making everything you have now worthless.
I don't know about immunity, as I feel that would take far too much away from specific legendary items. On the other hand, having paragon level provide an x% chance to reduce dmg by y% when condition is met (block, dodge, get hit) may work better, as it can be tuned down to provide only a minor effect per point invested, and still stacks up to provide a hefty reward for long-term/devoted players. As paragon points are infinite, this would need to reach a hard cap at some point, so that you cannot have a 100% activation rate, or 100% dmg reduction (I would expect something like 25% chance to reduce dmg by 15%). Similar additions could be made for CC reduction, and even a chance to receive x buff for y time (shrine buffs). While we're at it, why not add paragon block and dodge.
How exactly does a skill tree improve anything? I don't get it. What I like about the current system is no limits. I can combine anything, no matter how stupid it is. I spent several hours combining several spells on my Crusader, and there are a lot of awesome undiscovered specs. The problem is just that the survivability of 6 piece Akkhan's makes all of them feel a bit useless once you've created a decent Stampede Crusader.
Diablo 3 had skill trees initially - but they got removed during development because they didn't feel well about it. I fully support that design decision and it was definitely the right move. Just as an example: right now, Witch Doctors are trying out different ways to play on GR48+ in groups. From full zDPS CC spec to full pet DPS I've seen everything. That is only possible because you have no restriction, no skilltree. With a skill tree, you could not shift skills on a continuum between support and DPS, but only go full in either direction. The full support build with Tiklandian Visage might actually not even be possible, as it's something that combines abilities in a very "unusual" way.
In my opinion, the basics of the skill system are absolutely awesome. We need some tweaks (give the barbarian a single target spell; re-think the wizard class entirely, especially the now absolutely useless channeling spells, and so on) but overall the basics are there - what needs attention are other aspects (a lower CDR cap to avoid cheesy immortality/perma-CC tactics, tackle the dominance of certain sets that kills diversity for many classes, get rid of Conduits in GRs, allow people to be able to mitigate damage on GR45+ with reasonable toughness, and so on). But the return of a skill tree changes nothing.
P.S.: I personally think that paragon benefits are too high. I mainly play support classes, so my own paragon level is kind of irrelevant, but I see a clear correlation when teaming up with people between paragon level and GR progress, when the gear is exactly the same. If you want to talk about changes to paragon, they should make the benefits smaller.
How would adding a talent tree back in change anything at all? What we have right now is the same as a talent tree; Choose which skills / passives / paragon point stats you want to build your character. All a tree would do is change the interface. Sorry OP, but there's a reason they took them out of D3 and WoW; They don't actually serve a purpose, considering you can do the exact things you just listed as of right now, they are just fluff.
BINGO!
Too many dorks just don't get it. People are so prone to pattern recognition, that if they lay out a skill tree in a different format, people don't recognize it for what it truly is. What we have now is a more efficient version of a Skill Tree. No longer are 'points' wasted in order to gain access to skills further down the branch.
Aside from that; What we have here (yet again) is someone asking (yet again) for something that will NEVER happen. The OP might as well ask for every player to have access to a powerful burrito cannon that shoots delicious beef 'n' cheese filling. They are NEVER going to go back to the antiquated, inefficient Skill Tree.
span>For the paragon 800, while less than 150 people have that now, it"s almost 1500 that are 700+. Also don't forget we do have seasons now, the numbers will go up after the first season when all xp gets merged. (got someone on my list thats 700+ on both season and non-season, but not in your 800+ list). 2.0 is only released for 7 months, 22 months after vanilla. So I don't think that few people will ever go past 800.
1500 is still not a lot of people. And it kind of proves the point - "unlocking" all the bonus slots takes a *long* time, and it will be something tons of people can work totwards. Also, that list should be completely accurate - if you took a second to read, you can see that they actually do combine Non-seasonal and seasonal EXP. #126 for example, is 790 non season and 495 season, for a combined level of 804. Your friend might be +700 on both, but he needs to be 712+712 to hit 800 exactly. Maybe he isn't quite there yet?
span>Since day 1 people have been asking for better, stronger, more. While my "random nonsense" is totally OP and would be crazy, I did already see stuff like that mentioned (maybe not the godzilla, but crazy stuff almost just as powerful). As for the legendary affixes being "so weak", I must disagree. First of, a lot of monks do use ice climbers. For other items (that are not part of your set, like bracers, belt, ...), people often pick dps items, because they want to feel strong. Nobody forces you into lacuni or strongarm over krelms. If you got plenty of damage anyway (as you say later on), put on krelms and use the affix...
And people *should* be asking for better, stronger, more. It's the entire point of this game. Become stronger. Become more efficient. Kill tougher enemies. When we hit a point where we can't really progress apart from spending days farming an item that'll give us .5% crit or 30 int more, the game starts to get very, very tedious unless you specifically like just doing greater rifts over and over for skeleton-conduit rifts. Giving paragon a real meaning to farm would provide many hours more of gameplay, as most people tend to have their full sets completed by around 3-400 Paragon (which is basicly nowhere near 800).
And we *are* forced into lacuni/strongarms, because the only way to progress in this game and BECOME stronger, is by doing more damage. They kind of set that up when they made the only real challenge a time-attack. Being able to pick a knockback affix-negater might even make channeled builds more common - not top of the line, but atleast strong enough that it's usefull because they don't get interrupted by an abom going "derp" in their face.
span>For the rorg you are right, many people use it, need it. They use the ring because they drop the weakest piece of the set for a stronger alternative. But they need the other 5 pieces as well. Make all the set options obtainable with paragon as well, because every item probably has a better alternative but is needed to complete the set? (first 100 you get 1st bonus, 200 you get 2nd, 300 the 3rd, like a tree?) Cause yeah, I can't use the strong BT 4 piece when I go with my full class set.
And that's what I don't understand. I've explained a way to not make the bonus entirely OP, and you just go off on a tangent "WELL THEN WHY DONT WE JUST MAKE IT DO THIS - NOW ITS SEVERELY OP, HURR DURR BAD IDEA". The only reason it's a "bad idea" is because you start rambling about things that are completely fucking unrealistic. Being able to replace RoRG as a "mandatory" item, in trade for losing, say, a permanent immunity to stuns, is a real tradeoff. It's a decision to be made.
span>For the HF amu, look in the forum for threads to make keys drop 100% or give the amu better rolls so you have to farm less. In almost every single topic it is mentioned that the amu is needed cause it is so game changing. Not exactly "complaining" it is OP, but complaining they don't get the OP item. However you want to read it, all those posts confirm the amu is very strong (maybe not for all classes).
And how many of of these people *actually* have a clue about what they're talking about? Either way you cut it, a new passive slot is not gonna surpass more than 5-10% damage or survivability boost, because all the "big" passives have already been chosen. Lots of amulets (namely the immunity ones, blackthornes in combination with belt etc) are as strong, even for people who WANTS the hellfire.
span>The reason why I am against "being strong" is the evolution I did see in the game. Either people say the game is too hard/items not strong enough, or game too easy after a buff. And with stronger "buffs" for playing more (like your paragon suggestion) will make the difference between long term players and casuals even bigger. If you would make paragon feel you REALLY strong, we would need T30 soon to be challenging. Think about how confusing and demotivating that is for someone playing maybe 5 hours per week on T2. In greater rifts they understand it is a challenge, and they will never be top. For "normal farming" they often don't get why they can't farm the highest difficulty (even slow).
Good. There should be a difference between people who put in a thousand hours, and someone who put in 250. As mentioned earlier, you can have your full endgame set finished by 400 paragon, and then maybe spend another 100 levels "perfecting" it, to the point where an upgrade is nigh impossible to find. Along with this, Paragon becomes progressively worse and worse as a bonus - think about it. You pick the "real" stat boosters first (crit, critdmg, CDR, All resist, life% etc) and then you pick the worst last. It's simple common sense. But that means that 600-800, you're left with the worst stats, which means the worst levels to get (because they're far longer than 1-600) gives the least benefit.
Likewise, it wouldn't make low level players feel alienated more so than they already are. In fact, it would help them get to T6 and farm it quicker. The point about me being able to stomp T6 is, it can already be done. Let people get there quicker with bonuses like these, and everyone's happy - the 700 paragon guy isn't going to get any faster any way, and the 200 paragon guy doesn't have to spend hours trying to farm a fucking RoRG in T3 so he can break into T6.
span>You say it yourself, you do T6 rifts in under 5 minutes. Tell me how you are not strong? If we keep the items/stats/skills/everything the same as they are now, you can get more skilled in playing, improve your gear to perfection, maybe theorycraft a new build that performs better (lightning dh that only some time after patch really got known for example), and see yourself improve. Would you really feel better if every month you could do a grift 1-10 levels higher without changing any gear or skills, just because you unlock/get a new affix? Or would you feel better because you can see your skill and build evolve, clearing that grift a bit faster every day, failing the next one just a bit less, until you beat it? I pick the second.
I never said I wasn't "strong". But on my seasonal char, I've hit a point where the only progression I can make are getting fairly specific ultimate rolls that are almost impossible, to upgrade my char, and a few levels on my gems (they're only 37, could get them to 40 with a few days spent doing T35->36->37->38 rifts, because fuck the key system). 1.5 months and nothing left for me to do. I want to be able to constantly improve. I want to be able to farm a bonus that allows me to break into the next Grift. If I decide to spend 500 hours going from 600 to 700 paragon, what I get is 5% attack speed, some life regen, and 125 int. That's not even a bonus worth spitting at for a firebird mage, and doesn't change anything at all.
span>PS: blizzard said they will introduce 1 powerful legendary for every class each season, making you stronger already. I love to have epic items. With every change that happens, almost all gear becomes worthless (think about how many 2h you salvaged because not competitive, raekor set for barb, sunwuko set for monk, cold/lightning items for dh, phys items for sader, ...). Lucky there is seasons now and we will start over anyway, but that's 1 of the reasons I dislike changes as well: making everything you have now worthless.
PS: They didn't though, did they now?
I mean, take a look at the list. No one uses any of the seasonal only items. I have the aether wand for when I do bounties to put the warp speed up to 12, so I can finish a set in 5-7 minutes because infinite teleports. It doesn't make me any stronger though, it means I have to use a weak weapon to get mobility. No one uses the bola-implosion bow, the harvest dagger, the fist wep for monks or the mighty wep for barbs. Honestly, the only one I'm not sure about is the crusader shield, but they use phalanx and those horses, don't they? So... Yea. All of the seasonal legends, complete bull.
well ,if talent trees are meaningless then blizz should have made 1 set per class ,why wasting time giving us all these sets which are all useless ? and why gave us all these skill runes ? what you guys want is just incrased CHD CHC AS ? i tell you this ! i quit wow soon after they took away talent trees .
diablo talent trees shouldnt be like wow and any other games' . a special talent system which can make all skills + sets useful or just dont bother giving us more than 1 set + skill runes, everyone wearing the same set using same build ,this is nothow this game is played.
How would adding a talent tree back in change anything at all? What we have right now is the same as a talent tree; Choose which skills / passives / paragon point stats you want to build your character. All a tree would do is change the interface. Sorry OP, but there's a reason they took them out of D3 and WoW; They don't actually serve a purpose, considering you can do the exact things you just listed as of right now, they are just fluff.
Its not really a talent tree atm, especially once you reach 600. Its more just a way of steadily increasing character power outside of gear (So, as long as you pour time into the game, you will ALWAYS advance, even if you have absolutely best rolled BiS pieces)
IMO, blizzard should do a few things in terms of gearing.
One- Cut out a few stats. The main ones I'm looking at is +%life (useless, makes any piece it rolls on almost automatically a trash piece), Critical Hit Damage (Has wierd synergy with Critical Hit Chance. As you get more of one, the other gets more powerful, to the point that it snowballs and you always want to try to get CHC and CHD). Just make it to were crits do double damage, and boost baseline damage significantly to compensate.
Let me see, I put out a forum post about a list of changes...
The first part was changing the roll variance. Currently, you can get 100% different in roll (example- 5%-10%. Highest is twice as high as the bottom). Change it to 9-10%. Small difference- you can still aim for an absolute best roll, but you won't get that one item you've been hoping for, only to find it with terrible rolls.
Second part was removing the following stats- +%life (Its almost same thing as Vitality, but much worse. Still remains on Paragon Points), +Critical Hit Damage (Crits hit for 100% extra damage, and baseline weapon damage is significantly increased to make up for the loss. Replaced with +thorns in Paragon Points), +skill damage (On some legendaries, it will still remain, but otherwise removed and all skills buffed to compensate), and possibly +elemental damage (I like that it makes you favor one element over others, but feel that could be done differently then on gear. Perhaps have an "Skill Synergy" that boosts your damage done whenever your skills are of the same element, up to a maximum amount)
Third, and biggest part which is tied in to the second part, was buffing baseline damage on weapons significantly. As it stands, your damage greatly skyrockets once you start adding in more critical hit chance and damage. Thus, you can easily advance in difficulty tiers just with the acquisition of a good rolled piece.
So, with significantly higher baseline weapon damage, you can get yourself settled in a higher difficulty much quicker. Not only that, but you would advance through difficulties at a much steadier pace, rather then sudden leaps in efficiency that you see now.
All blues- Normal. Mostly blues with some rares- Hard. Moslty rares with some blues. Expert- Entirely rares. Master- one or two legendaries, due to the higher stat boost.
Torment 1- Half legendaries. Torment 2- full legendaries. Torment 3- A few pieces of optimized legendaries (I.E You get a set bonus, and a few synergistic legendaries). Torment 4- partly optimized legendaries (You have 2 different set bonuses working, and some good synergisty legendaries). Torment 5- Almost highly optimizied legendaries (2 different full set bonuses, almost have full BiS). Torment 6- 100% optimized legendaries (Everything has decent rolls, and you have the perfect legendaries for your playstyle).
After that, you go up in greater rifts by A) Optimizing your playstyle, increasing in Paragon Points (which platues MUCH sooner then 1.2k. Lets say around 400, the xp requires platues).
Paragon Points would actually matter significantly more- mainly the damge points (Which would be locked until you fill up extra resources and movement speed) due to the earlier changes of higher baseline weapon damage, which would greatly increase the effects of Int/Str/Dex in terms of damage boosting.
I believe this series of changes would only help this game.
How would adding a talent tree back in change anything at all? What we have right now is the same as a talent tree; Choose which skills / passives / paragon point stats you want to build your character. All a tree would do is change the interface. Sorry OP, but there's a reason they took them out of D3 and WoW; They don't actually serve a purpose, considering you can do the exact things you just listed as of right now, they are just fluff.
Its not really a talent tree atm, especially once you reach 600. Its more just a way of steadily increasing character power outside of gear (So, as long as you pour time into the game, you will ALWAYS advance, even if you have absolutely best rolled BiS pieces)
The entire system is almost exactly like a talent tree; as I said, you pick what you want out of skills / passives and paragon points. Yes paragon is a steady increase, but picking what skills / talents you want is just like how a talent tree would work. In fact, if anything a Talent tree would limit the number of builds even further, because a skill would be near worthless without being maxed out, assuming there's points involved. And if there ISN'T points involved, it's a pick-what-skill-you-want-with-a-limit, which is what we have now.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
for example : saders ------protection-------punishment---------fury----------lord commander
protection: mainly tank+ thorn, make GR 40+ tankable.
punishment: mainly elemental spells such as holy shot gun ,FOTH, hammers, condem, etc
fury: sweep, shield bash, blessed shield, life steal. hitting enemy to increase toughness or enemy damage reduction
lord commander: horsey, pet build
In vanilla, you have lvl 1-60. People started complaining the game was not rewarding, and they added paragon points for every character, "rewarding" you for playing. Since people started complaining that this was forcing you to play only 1 char/class, they turned paragon account wide (in the same "tree", HC/SC, season/non-season).
Asking to turn this into a skill tree, takes away the entire idea the original paragon was for: reward people with 5 main stat for every so much time they played. I do agree that currently a certain amount of paragon is required already for certain builds (thus stepping away from the original paragon system), building a full skill tree (only useful if you can not reset it) turns the game around.
-1 set item requirement (RoRG, basicly).
+1 Legendary gem socket.
+1 Passive slot.
+Cheat death mechanic.
And some "strong" legendary effects, such as Ice climbers (immunity to stuns/movement impairing) and Krelms bracers (immune to knockback and loss of control) to fill out the last slots - you get the general idea.
Every 100 levels, you'd get to pick one of these "bonuses", and add it to your paragons - so every 100 levels, instead of the gradual, incremental strength increase you can barely feel, the 100 milestone is *really* felt, because you suddenly have an extra legendary gem, or become immune to stuns etc.
talent trees------->skills---------->sets ( right !)
paragon points---------->sets (just one is viable per class)<--------------skills (wrong !)
And once you hit paragon 1000 you turn into godzilla without any skills apart from 200% movementspeed and a death aura so everything that gets within 60 yards insta dies.
Cause that all sounds balanced and totally not overpowered.
Now to be serious: since paragon is unlimited, why do you stop at 8 powerfull bonuses? Getting paragon gets a slot slower every level. Why should people not be rewarded to hit 900 paragon?
Because the effects you suggest are so strong, it would be a huge advantage. Where having 800+ paragon and thus everything maxed out now gives you some (up to a lot) of extra dps, you suggest full crowd controll immunity, only 4 pieces for a 6piece set (and 2 for a 4 piece, so you can have full blackthorne and marauder for example), a 6th passive (as hellfire can give a 5th and people complain about that being OP already), and a 7th passive as the extra cheat death (that is a passive for all classes i believe). I think you get my point that this will not only make you FEEL strong, it is completely imbalanced.
Paragon should be a small reward, not a game changing boost.
Likewise, the fact that you think the bonuses are too powerfull and then go off and spout random nonsense that are ten times as strong as the stuff I've mentioned is just... Derp. Paragon should be meaningfull. It should be felt when we grow in power. It's the only way to progress your character consistently.
If you consider the examples I gave, the "legendary affixes" are so weak that you'd never consider using ice climbers or Krelms in any build, because there's much stronger items around. They're great situational affixes, though, and could help a fair few builds become more viable.
Likewise, almost every endgame spec (except for wizards, AFAIK) are forced to use a RoRG because of it's bonus. Make them mutually exclusive, and you can choose between a ring with the effect (and lose out on one of the ton of other more exciting rings) and gain a different ability to add to your spec, or you can gain the -1 set item and use another ring.
Likewise, please tell me where people complain about Hellfire being "OP". Wizards has no real use for it because we don't have enough strong passive skills. Monk's can't use it because they need a sunwoko neck. I can't speak for barbs, wds or crusaders, but out of the 3 I play, only my DH would want one - and even then, immunity necks are strong competitors. It's all about choise.
No one seems to complain about wizard's getting an extra cheat death through firebird's 4 set is "overpowered" in any way, either - despite the alternatives for other classes being stupid shit such as 20 mana regen for WD's, and 500 vit for barbs on their 6 sets.
But all this aside, I don't understand why you'd be against *being* strong, and *being* powerfull. Power creep is no longer something we need to be concerned about - greater rifts are only cleared up to level 51. Even if there was a hardcap at 100, we're only just past half the levels. I mean, let's be honest here - any well geared player are already doing bounties in 7-10 minutes depending on how hard the fucking cave entrances and the like are to track down, and rifts in 5 minutes or lower when playing T6. A single black hole obliterates an entire elite pack on my wizard on T6. I can't really *get* stronger - I've hit the point where more power won't equal more speed. So have a lot of other people. Adding a bonus like this would only change greater rifts, and that's irrelevant because they're infinite.
(And just to be completely clear: Even if we were to be given an extra passive, a cheat death, immunity to knockbacks, stuns and the like, another legendary gem, and 4-5 affixes akin to soeed boost on wrecking objects etc - things that are great fun and moderately usefull, but ultimately worthless compared to raw power gain - that'd still be far from enough to break us into G60 levels).
With everything said, I truly do believe that a game about grinding to become more powerfull should give you a bigger reward for levelling up your prestige than a picture change.
For the paragon 800, while less than 150 people have that now, it"s almost 1500 that are 700+. Also don't forget we do have seasons now, the numbers will go up after the first season when all xp gets merged. (got someone on my list thats 700+ on both season and non-season, but not in your 800+ list). 2.0 is only released for 7 months, 22 months after vanilla. So I don't think that few people will ever go past 800.
Since day 1 people have been asking for better, stronger, more. While my "random nonsense" is totally OP and would be crazy, I did already see stuff like that mentioned (maybe not the godzilla, but crazy stuff almost just as powerful). As for the legendary affixes being "so weak", I must disagree. First of, a lot of monks do use ice climbers. For other items (that are not part of your set, like bracers, belt, ...), people often pick dps items, because they want to feel strong. Nobody forces you into lacuni or strongarm over krelms. If you got plenty of damage anyway (as you say later on), put on krelms and use the affix...
For the rorg you are right, many people use it, need it. They use the ring because they drop the weakest piece of the set for a stronger alternative. But they need the other 5 pieces as well. Make all the set options obtainable with paragon as well, because every item probably has a better alternative but is needed to complete the set? (first 100 you get 1st bonus, 200 you get 2nd, 300 the 3rd, like a tree?) Cause yeah, I can't use the strong BT 4 piece when I go with my full class set.
For the HF amu, look in the forum for threads to make keys drop 100% or give the amu better rolls so you have to farm less. In almost every single topic it is mentioned that the amu is needed cause it is so game changing. Not exactly "complaining" it is OP, but complaining they don't get the OP item. However you want to read it, all those posts confirm the amu is very strong (maybe not for all classes).
The reason why I am against "being strong" is the evolution I did see in the game. Either people say the game is too hard/items not strong enough, or game too easy after a buff. And with stronger "buffs" for playing more (like your paragon suggestion) will make the difference between long term players and casuals even bigger. If you would make paragon feel you REALLY strong, we would need T30 soon to be challenging. Think about how confusing and demotivating that is for someone playing maybe 5 hours per week on T2. In greater rifts they understand it is a challenge, and they will never be top. For "normal farming" they often don't get why they can't farm the highest difficulty (even slow).
You say it yourself, you do T6 rifts in under 5 minutes. Tell me how you are not strong? If we keep the items/stats/skills/everything the same as they are now, you can get more skilled in playing, improve your gear to perfection, maybe theorycraft a new build that performs better (lightning dh that only some time after patch really got known for example), and see yourself improve. Would you really feel better if every month you could do a grift 1-10 levels higher without changing any gear or skills, just because you unlock/get a new affix? Or would you feel better because you can see your skill and build evolve, clearing that grift a bit faster every day, failing the next one just a bit less, until you beat it? I pick the second.
I think our vision on grinding might be to different. I grind for my gear to improve. The paragon points are an extra bonus while doing so.
PS: blizzard said they will introduce 1 powerful legendary for every class each season, making you stronger already. I love to have epic items. With every change that happens, almost all gear becomes worthless (think about how many 2h you salvaged because not competitive, raekor set for barb, sunwuko set for monk, cold/lightning items for dh, phys items for sader, ...). Lucky there is seasons now and we will start over anyway, but that's 1 of the reasons I dislike changes as well: making everything you have now worthless.
Diablo 3 had skill trees initially - but they got removed during development because they didn't feel well about it. I fully support that design decision and it was definitely the right move. Just as an example: right now, Witch Doctors are trying out different ways to play on GR48+ in groups. From full zDPS CC spec to full pet DPS I've seen everything. That is only possible because you have no restriction, no skilltree. With a skill tree, you could not shift skills on a continuum between support and DPS, but only go full in either direction. The full support build with Tiklandian Visage might actually not even be possible, as it's something that combines abilities in a very "unusual" way.
In my opinion, the basics of the skill system are absolutely awesome. We need some tweaks (give the barbarian a single target spell; re-think the wizard class entirely, especially the now absolutely useless channeling spells, and so on) but overall the basics are there - what needs attention are other aspects (a lower CDR cap to avoid cheesy immortality/perma-CC tactics, tackle the dominance of certain sets that kills diversity for many classes, get rid of Conduits in GRs, allow people to be able to mitigate damage on GR45+ with reasonable toughness, and so on). But the return of a skill tree changes nothing.
P.S.: I personally think that paragon benefits are too high. I mainly play support classes, so my own paragon level is kind of irrelevant, but I see a clear correlation when teaming up with people between paragon level and GR progress, when the gear is exactly the same. If you want to talk about changes to paragon, they should make the benefits smaller.
Too many dorks just don't get it. People are so prone to pattern recognition, that if they lay out a skill tree in a different format, people don't recognize it for what it truly is. What we have now is a more efficient version of a Skill Tree. No longer are 'points' wasted in order to gain access to skills further down the branch.
Aside from that; What we have here (yet again) is someone asking (yet again) for something that will NEVER happen. The OP might as well ask for every player to have access to a powerful burrito cannon that shoots delicious beef 'n' cheese filling. They are NEVER going to go back to the antiquated, inefficient Skill Tree.
.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
1500 is still not a lot of people. And it kind of proves the point - "unlocking" all the bonus slots takes a *long* time, and it will be something tons of people can work totwards. Also, that list should be completely accurate - if you took a second to read, you can see that they actually do combine Non-seasonal and seasonal EXP. #126 for example, is 790 non season and 495 season, for a combined level of 804. Your friend might be +700 on both, but he needs to be 712+712 to hit 800 exactly. Maybe he isn't quite there yet?
And people *should* be asking for better, stronger, more. It's the entire point of this game. Become stronger. Become more efficient. Kill tougher enemies. When we hit a point where we can't really progress apart from spending days farming an item that'll give us .5% crit or 30 int more, the game starts to get very, very tedious unless you specifically like just doing greater rifts over and over for skeleton-conduit rifts. Giving paragon a real meaning to farm would provide many hours more of gameplay, as most people tend to have their full sets completed by around 3-400 Paragon (which is basicly nowhere near 800).
And we *are* forced into lacuni/strongarms, because the only way to progress in this game and BECOME stronger, is by doing more damage. They kind of set that up when they made the only real challenge a time-attack. Being able to pick a knockback affix-negater might even make channeled builds more common - not top of the line, but atleast strong enough that it's usefull because they don't get interrupted by an abom going "derp" in their face.
And that's what I don't understand. I've explained a way to not make the bonus entirely OP, and you just go off on a tangent "WELL THEN WHY DONT WE JUST MAKE IT DO THIS - NOW ITS SEVERELY OP, HURR DURR BAD IDEA". The only reason it's a "bad idea" is because you start rambling about things that are completely fucking unrealistic. Being able to replace RoRG as a "mandatory" item, in trade for losing, say, a permanent immunity to stuns, is a real tradeoff. It's a decision to be made.
And how many of of these people *actually* have a clue about what they're talking about? Either way you cut it, a new passive slot is not gonna surpass more than 5-10% damage or survivability boost, because all the "big" passives have already been chosen. Lots of amulets (namely the immunity ones, blackthornes in combination with belt etc) are as strong, even for people who WANTS the hellfire.
Good. There should be a difference between people who put in a thousand hours, and someone who put in 250. As mentioned earlier, you can have your full endgame set finished by 400 paragon, and then maybe spend another 100 levels "perfecting" it, to the point where an upgrade is nigh impossible to find. Along with this, Paragon becomes progressively worse and worse as a bonus - think about it. You pick the "real" stat boosters first (crit, critdmg, CDR, All resist, life% etc) and then you pick the worst last. It's simple common sense. But that means that 600-800, you're left with the worst stats, which means the worst levels to get (because they're far longer than 1-600) gives the least benefit.
Likewise, it wouldn't make low level players feel alienated more so than they already are. In fact, it would help them get to T6 and farm it quicker. The point about me being able to stomp T6 is, it can already be done. Let people get there quicker with bonuses like these, and everyone's happy - the 700 paragon guy isn't going to get any faster any way, and the 200 paragon guy doesn't have to spend hours trying to farm a fucking RoRG in T3 so he can break into T6.
I never said I wasn't "strong". But on my seasonal char, I've hit a point where the only progression I can make are getting fairly specific ultimate rolls that are almost impossible, to upgrade my char, and a few levels on my gems (they're only 37, could get them to 40 with a few days spent doing T35->36->37->38 rifts, because fuck the key system). 1.5 months and nothing left for me to do. I want to be able to constantly improve. I want to be able to farm a bonus that allows me to break into the next Grift. If I decide to spend 500 hours going from 600 to 700 paragon, what I get is 5% attack speed, some life regen, and 125 int. That's not even a bonus worth spitting at for a firebird mage, and doesn't change anything at all.
PS: They didn't though, did they now?
I mean, take a look at the list. No one uses any of the seasonal only items. I have the aether wand for when I do bounties to put the warp speed up to 12, so I can finish a set in 5-7 minutes because infinite teleports. It doesn't make me any stronger though, it means I have to use a weak weapon to get mobility. No one uses the bola-implosion bow, the harvest dagger, the fist wep for monks or the mighty wep for barbs. Honestly, the only one I'm not sure about is the crusader shield, but they use phalanx and those horses, don't they? So... Yea. All of the seasonal legends, complete bull.
diablo talent trees shouldnt be like wow and any other games' . a special talent system which can make all skills + sets useful or just dont bother giving us more than 1 set + skill runes, everyone wearing the same set using same build ,this is nothow this game is played.
One- Cut out a few stats. The main ones I'm looking at is +%life (useless, makes any piece it rolls on almost automatically a trash piece), Critical Hit Damage (Has wierd synergy with Critical Hit Chance. As you get more of one, the other gets more powerful, to the point that it snowballs and you always want to try to get CHC and CHD). Just make it to were crits do double damage, and boost baseline damage significantly to compensate.
Let me see, I put out a forum post about a list of changes...
The first part was changing the roll variance. Currently, you can get 100% different in roll (example- 5%-10%. Highest is twice as high as the bottom). Change it to 9-10%. Small difference- you can still aim for an absolute best roll, but you won't get that one item you've been hoping for, only to find it with terrible rolls.
Second part was removing the following stats- +%life (Its almost same thing as Vitality, but much worse. Still remains on Paragon Points), +Critical Hit Damage (Crits hit for 100% extra damage, and baseline weapon damage is significantly increased to make up for the loss. Replaced with +thorns in Paragon Points), +skill damage (On some legendaries, it will still remain, but otherwise removed and all skills buffed to compensate), and possibly +elemental damage (I like that it makes you favor one element over others, but feel that could be done differently then on gear. Perhaps have an "Skill Synergy" that boosts your damage done whenever your skills are of the same element, up to a maximum amount)
Third, and biggest part which is tied in to the second part, was buffing baseline damage on weapons significantly. As it stands, your damage greatly skyrockets once you start adding in more critical hit chance and damage. Thus, you can easily advance in difficulty tiers just with the acquisition of a good rolled piece.
So, with significantly higher baseline weapon damage, you can get yourself settled in a higher difficulty much quicker. Not only that, but you would advance through difficulties at a much steadier pace, rather then sudden leaps in efficiency that you see now.
All blues- Normal. Mostly blues with some rares- Hard. Moslty rares with some blues. Expert- Entirely rares. Master- one or two legendaries, due to the higher stat boost.
Torment 1- Half legendaries. Torment 2- full legendaries. Torment 3- A few pieces of optimized legendaries (I.E You get a set bonus, and a few synergistic legendaries). Torment 4- partly optimized legendaries (You have 2 different set bonuses working, and some good synergisty legendaries). Torment 5- Almost highly optimizied legendaries (2 different full set bonuses, almost have full BiS). Torment 6- 100% optimized legendaries (Everything has decent rolls, and you have the perfect legendaries for your playstyle).
After that, you go up in greater rifts by A) Optimizing your playstyle, increasing in Paragon Points (which platues MUCH sooner then 1.2k. Lets say around 400, the xp requires platues).
Paragon Points would actually matter significantly more- mainly the damge points (Which would be locked until you fill up extra resources and movement speed) due to the earlier changes of higher baseline weapon damage, which would greatly increase the effects of Int/Str/Dex in terms of damage boosting.
I believe this series of changes would only help this game.