(Heads-up: I know it’s a long text, but there’s a TL;DR at the end.)
The timing of this post might be a bit off: right now, this very moment, I believe Diablo is offering the best gaming experience any Diablo game ever offered to me. I absolutely love Reaper of Souls so far and some of the upcoming changes (Tiered Rifts) got me absolutely thrilled not just about the current game, but also its future direction.
That being said, I have one huge concern and that is the way seasons seem to be implemented. Let me say that although I don’t care about ladders/seasons myself I can totally see why this is a necessary feature for the game. The great success of Diabloprogress over the years and the thriving Twitch community are testament to this development, and I’m sure it will only add to the game’s experience. However, I think there are a couple of dangerous combinations in the upcoming changes; let me quote from the frontpage:
DiabloFans Quote:
When a season ends, the loot and other benefits will carry over to the normal game
Each season will have new legendaries
I’m aware that we’ve had plenty of discussion about season-only legendaries, and I’m not going to recite all the pro’s and con’s here. However, this combination is dreadful because it forces everyone into playing seasons. Eventually we all want loot, and the best possible loot in the game. Imagine an item like Wand of Woh, Calamity, Thunderfury, or Prophecy is being added to the season game mode. Would you really play non-season given the fact that you know that you will never see this item? Keep in mind that when the season ends all the other players who played seasons will have their season-only loot transferred into your game mode. This is not a problem if you play solo or have a dedicated clan that is “no season only”. But in every other case, especially for public games and communities - and especially the latter are thriving right now - you would instantly fall behind. While your character was on par or just slightly below all of your friends’, clan mates’, and fellow community members’ characters, you might find yourself to be so undergeared that you are holding them back.
This effect can already be experienced in the game right now, simply by RNG. For example, we’ve had a circle of about ~10 people that were all similarly geared in between 2.0.1 and RoS. We did countless hours of paragon leveling together. In RoS, we find ourselves on vastly different gear levels; some are perfectly geared for T6, while some still occasionally die on T4. It’s not a huge problem though: no one insights of playing T6 or even T5, the difference in loot is not that large. However, with Tiered Rifts this might change, as the following quotes will highlight:
DiabloFans Quote:
The speed of clearing a Tiered Rift will take part in determining how difficult the next one will be
Tiered Rifts will most probably serve as a benchmark for balancing classes
The devs have been thinking about the idea of Legendary gems as a reward from Tiered Rifts
Yes, this is only an informal piece of information about something that hasn’t even hit PTR. Nevertheless, it outlines the developers’ thought process: provide players with a challenge to play at their limits, and incentivize this with outstanding loot (or other rewards). In addition, Tiered Rifts are probably the “endgame” that has been subject of debate for quite some time, especially among the high-end players.
Now, what’s this all got to do with anything? Why can’t I simply play the game myself and enjoy whatever I enjoy doing? Why do I have to care about stuff that doesn’t affect me directly, but indirectly through my peers?
First of all, Diablo is focused on multiplayer. This has been confirmed lately in a bluepost. With the addition of clans and communities, the game to me almost feels like an MMORPG, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Therefore, you cannot simply dismiss concerns like “others outgear me if I don’t do X” by saying “stop caring about others”. There are so many challenges that are simply much easier to overcome if you team up; high-Torment rifts, ubers, or farming materials, just to mention a few. If you play solo and make no use of clan’s or communities’ benefits, chances are you are significantly behind right now (I know of an anecdotal evidence of this first hand). As of now, players of different gear levels can still play together - with some drawbacks, but it’s fine, as there’s no really bad implication besides an unnoticeable few percent less loot. With season-only gear and special Tiered Rifts rewards that only super fast groups are able to acquire, this leads to a segregation in the community. Even more so, it splits existing communities for no reason other than slightly different playstyles (maximum efficiency versus exploratory), RPG paradigm (frequent restart from scratch versus continuously gearing up one character), or even just RNG (someone who got unlucky at the beginning of a season has almost no chance to catch up as bad RNG leads to fewer success in Tiered Rifts and, subsequently, worse loot).
Secondly, and this is probably the most startling issue, the game was never about forcing anyone into any game mode or playstyle. Hardcore always existed in Diablo, but never had any advantages whatsoever. Never were there any hardcore-only legendaries, and although I’m a softcore player, I actually think hardcore deserves its own items (especially those with a revive effect like the 4 piece Firebird’s bonus). When paragon was introduced, the developers made sure over and over again to stress that paragon was not mandatory and just an additional incentive for people at maximum level to play on. Although acquiring some magic find was necessary, a paragon 70 player (which was achievable in not too much time) was not too far behind compared to a paragon 100 player (something I never got even close to). 90% more magic find - it was even possible to make up for this on gear, and the additional stats were not too significant either. Another example are Monster Power levels and Torment difficulties: although MP10 and T6 are the goal of every character, one could never play those and still achieve absolutely everything (“finding the sweet spot”).
TL;DR: Season-only legendaries and the transferral of season-only legendaries to non-season forces people into playing a game mode that not everyone might enjoy. By neglecting this new game mode, you risk “falling behind”, miss out on potentially game-changing items, and might find yourself separated from your friends, clan, and communities. Overall, it might result in an unnecessary segregation of the playerbase.
I know, the right way to address this is to post it on the official forums. I've done that before several times (more TL;DR) and was completely shot down. Either the feedback was dismissed/not replied to or I was declared a "QQ crybaby". Therefore, I ask for honest feedback here; I might iterate on this, make necessary edits, and post this on the official forums if you think it's worth it and I can get "signatories". It's difficult to get heard over there as the overwhelming majority on the official forums, from what I've read, welcomes those changes. But I still intend to forward this to the official channels, one way or another.
IMO seasons "ladders" is very exciting. When a new season starts people will go as far to take the time off of work to get in game, and start a new toon. people come out of the woodwork to get into new seasons.
IMo they need to scrap paragon lvls when seasons start. and cap the lvl at 90 or 100.
What if after every season ends the legendary items of that season would start dropping in non-ladder servers?
Since they said they will be adding new legendaries every season...
It doesn't matter, the damage is done, you're already behind. Here's a thought exercise: take a snapshot of your gear and some other people you "look up to" (if those exist). Every three month. By the time you caught up to the better geared people, they won't have stopped playing and be still ahead. It's like the Torment race; in the beginning you can clear T1 and some guys may clear T3 because of their better gear. Sure, in a few weeks/months you will have that gear as well and can clear T3, but at this point they moved on to T5.
As I said, this gap already exists but it's not as critical because even a T6 capable player might join you on T3 or T4 for a while; still gets the same loot. With Tiered Rifts this is not the case: if you as the "non-season geared player" join them, they're slower and might not get to the special rewards of higher Tiered Rift levels.
I dont think season only legendary items are a bad thing. Even transferring them over to normal servers after the season is over. People should be rewarded for what they do. If someone doesnt want to play season/ladders/tier rifts/etc, they should not be able to get the same items. Said people arent forced into playing these alternate modes, but the people playing the alternate modes should indeed be rewarded. In what sense would someone be "falling behind" if they dont get said exclusive items? The only competitive aspect that should matter at that stage in the game should be ... well ... the competitive modes. Not the normal "casual" modes. Normal mode will never be an even playing field nor should it. I kind of think of it as sandbox solo player with the option to play with my friends when i want to. We have no economy, no trading, nothing of the sort. What someone else does in their own Diablo 3 world doesnt affect me at all. I dont know why people are bothered by it.
* Stop playing whenever you want, and you will be where you left off when you start again
* Whatever you achieve is still there and still counts as progress no matter if you take a break for a day/week/month/6 months
Seasons with special legendaries forces me to play that mode (its content! why would I want to miss new content? that's what keeps the game alive) and even if I find these legendaries, I know that at some point in the future, season will be reset and all my progress is gone.
To me this is pretty much equivalent with "Blizzard will delete all your characters and progress from time to time, forcing you to start over from nothing!" I would probably not buy into that kind of game...
Why not just implement the new legendaries in non-season mode as well as in seasons? Feed the game with new content and let people continue building on the characters they already have? Who is the loser in that scenario?
If you dont want to play the alternate game modes, why should you be rewarded with the same items? If the alternate game modes have special items, the people that choose to play those should gain the rewards and be able to keep them. You are not in any way forced into playing these modes, what are you falling behind in if you dont and dont get the special items? Is normal mode really competitive? Come on now, be realistic. I have somewhere around 2000 hours total played in Diablo 3 and still have never seen items that some of my friends with less than 1/4 of the time played have gotten. Its the nature of the game. But I do firmly believe that playing an alternate game mode should be rewarding in an exclusive way.
That "forcing" part is the worst. I absolutely love my HC WD right now, it deals tons of damage and I think I am the only one playing a WD like that at the moment. If Seasons/Ladders come in, I would have to start over with a different character every few months, and wouldn't be able to enjoy the Legendaries I collected previously with the character(s) I love because I'd always be worrying about missing out on the newest Legendaries.
This system obviously is going to need a lot of work/rework. I don't like the idea of making the seasons/ladders that segregated from normal gameplay modes. And I am quite sure many of you agree.
Thats the thing, youre not "FORCED" into playing any mode you dont want to. You choose to play HC, you arent forced to play it. I choose to play SC, im not forced to play it. No one will be forced to play seasonal/ladder game modes when they are released. If you want the exclusive rewards, you have to play it though, which is called "INCENTIVE" not "FORCE".
Thats the thing, youre not "FORCED" into playing any mode you dont want to. You choose to play HC, you arent forced to play it. I choose to play SC, im not forced to play it. No one will be forced to play seasonal/ladder game modes when they are released. If you want the exclusive rewards, you have to play it though, which is called "INCENTIVE" not "FORCE".
You are not forced to play HC because HC has no HC-only items.
That's different with seasons. And that's the whole thing.
Just for fun, imagine the following: the Wand of Woh only drops in HC. Do you believe the distribution of HC/SC players would be the same? I know for sure I'd play HC, even though I don't like HC.
Thats the thing, youre not "FORCED" into playing any mode you dont want to. You choose to play HC, you arent forced to play it. I choose to play SC, im not forced to play it. No one will be forced to play seasonal/ladder game modes when they are released. If you want the exclusive rewards, you have to play it though, which is called "INCENTIVE" not "FORCE".
You are not forced to play HC because HC has no HC-only items.
That's different with seasons. And that's the whole thing.
Nothing forces you into playing seasons either. Like I said, incentive and force are two completely different things.
in·cen·tive
inˈsentiv/
noun a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something.
force
fôrs/ nouncoercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence.verb make (someone) do something against their will.
NO ONE is forced to do anything in this game as far as choosing which game mode they want to play, they CHOOSE which game mode to play.
Thats the thing, youre not "FORCED" into playing any mode you dont want to. You choose to play HC, you arent forced to play it. I choose to play SC, im not forced to play it. No one will be forced to play seasonal/ladder game modes when they are released. If you want the exclusive rewards, you have to play it though, which is called "INCENTIVE" not "FORCE".
Just for fun, imagine the following: the Wand of Woh only drops in HC. Do you believe the distribution of HC/SC players would be the same? I know for sure I'd play HC, even though I don't like HC.
That would be your choice to play HC for that item, in no way is Blizzard forcing you to play HC. If you want that specific item, that is your INCENTIVE to play HC. You choose to want that item. For the sake of this scenario, even if I was a Wizard main, I still wouldn't want to play HC for that item, just because I don't like the structure of HC. Often times I get disconnected from Blizzard's servers while nothing else going on for me suffers from latency/packet loss/etc. Or for example the game crashes because of a sound bug, which caused, I would assume, a HIGH number of HC players to lose characters. I CHOOSE not to play in a game mode that I can be punished for something 100% out of my control.
There is actually a HC-only item... the amulet that saves you when taking fatal dmg. Or they removed that item? So Even if that item is useless in SC, it's still only able to drop in HC mode.
I completely agree Bagstone (as usual). I am already "behind" so to speak since I have a full-time job and a family that are obviously higher priorities for me. My playtime is limited and I simply cannot "compete" (almost makes me laugh as competing would mean comparing skill and not just who plays the most) with people playing 5, 10, 15, etc. hours a day playing 1 MAYBE 2 hours a day with sometimes days in between. Now when I do play I am going to have to completely start my toon(s) all over and play a mode I never would have played just to avoid being even more behind. Personally, not just in this game but life in general I HATE feeling forced into doing anything...Doesn't sound like they are going to reverse their thinking on it since they are already putting out posts like the front page but I agree it is very frustrating.
Nothing forces you into playing seasons either. Like I said, incentive and force are two completely different things.
in·cen·tive
inˈsentiv/
noun a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something.
force
fôrs/ nouncoercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence.verb make (someone) do something against their will.
NO ONE is forced to do anything in this game as far as choosing which game mode they want to play, they CHOOSE which game mode to play.
An incentive can become a force.
There's an incentive for doing bounties, called Horadric Caches. One of those drops a ring. This ring is not an incentive anymore, it's become a necessity; you are forced to run act 1 bounties to get this for progressing with your character.
You are simply considering "incentive" as something optional, but this is not true if the incentive is too good. And there is no reason why we should believe the incentive for season will be a sub-par item that is not competitive to endgame loot. Incentives often backfire and force people into doing things they don't want; it's a known fact and a very common mistake in studies (when the incentive is so high that people do things that they don't want to do, just to get the incentive).
Yes well the INCENTIVE everyone is pitching around for seasons is competition AND 'that fresh start feeling' (joke).
Fact of the matter is, everyone needs incentive to keep playing a game, not just you and your special snowflake brigade. Please note that in your dictionary.com definition of incentive, it nowhere says ".. Encourages one to do something after their previous time expenditure has been voided."
Spare me the 'earned' and 'deserved' talk, spare me the choice rhetoric. The premise remains as such, they will not be wasting time adjusting (non-season) legendaries.
New game breaking builds will only be realized in one of three games modes, or with a 6 month delay.
Because I don't want to discard all of my previous progress, I am left playing an inferior game mode because YOU wouldn't EVEN BOTHER with a Season without new items.
Fact of the matter is, either way, no one would be forced to play seasonal/ladder game modes. I personally think its a bit asinine to make that generalization. People who want to play competitively should be able to do so and be rewarded for it. People who dont want to play competitively should NOT be rewarded with the same rewards as the competitive players, playing in an alternate game mode. Do you really care if someone can farm Torment 6 faster than you? Does it really bother you that much? Why should anyone care if another person has an item advantage over them? The game is generally built to reward players for what they do. If someone doesnt like that system, they can choose to play a different game. I think segregation between players is a good thing and should be encouraged. The people that cant play as much as others, shouldnt be rewarded with the same rewards. End of story. Like Superbriggz said in this post, he has priorities that prevent him from playing as much as people that play upwards of 15 hours or more a day. Thats commendable that he is taking care of his real life affairs and hes probably a better person to some extent than me, someone who plays video games upwards of 15 hours a day. Do I think he should have the same rewards in gear/paragon/etc as me in this game? By all means, and with all do respect, fkkkk no. Again, nothing against him in any way, what so ever. I just have no real life priorities or responsibility and enjoy what I do.
Who is the loser in the scenario of introducing these new legendaries in seasons, as well as non-seasons? You will still have your choice to play seasons if you actually want to, right? What more incentive than "I want to play seasons because I like the idea of this game mode" do you need? If this is not enough incentive in itself, clearly it's not your preferred game mode?
Thats what Im trying to say. If you want to play seasonal/ladder games, you will play them because you want to. I dont think its reasonable for someone to be like, "oh god i really want to get item 'x'. i HAVE to play ladders, even though i dont want to". Just seems foolish to me.
TL;DR: Season-only legendaries and the transferral of season-only legendaries to non-season forces people into playing a game mode that not everyone might enjoy. By neglecting this new game mode, you risk “falling behind”, miss out on potentially game-changing items, and might find yourself separated from your friends, clan, and communities. Overall, it might result in an unnecessary segregation of the playerbase.
My feelings are exactly the same on this topic!
Maybe I will spend some time on ladders, but most of the time I want to play with my friends on higher torment levels, not having to gear up again as I need much time for that (not playing that much as others). But I certainly would "miss" something, when I wasn't able to get the ladder-only items.
If you want to play competitively, you know what your incentive is? The competition. If they opened season ladders with no new exclusive items, guess what? The people that care about competing for progress would play in it and compete. The people that don't care wouldn't be "incentivized" into playing a way they don't like. Nobody loses and it still adds variety to the game. I don't see why people that want to compete feel they should get something for being competitive. Give the top players at the end of the season something, sure. They "won". But not to every Joe Teenager who can play 4 hours a day so he thinks seasons are the bee's knees.
do I think he should have the same rewards in gear/paragon/etc as me in this game? By all means, and with all do respect, fkkkk no. Again, nothing against him in any way, what so ever. I just have no real life priorities or responsibility and enjoy what I do.
So if he can't play 10+ hours a day he can't enjoy a game mode? Let's get realistic here. 15 hours A DAY. This game or these new modes should be balanced around that type of ... "Commitment"?
No. It shouldn't. Time spent should not be synonymous with 'best' in a 1 to 1 ratio. To me that would be the challenge of developing a rewarding experience. One where measures other than 'time spent' decide who gets what.
I have a much, much easier time understanding and accepting a more skilled player having better items/rewards, (any game, any genre) than I do one who just so happens to roll his face on the keyboard the equivalent of two full work weeks every 7 days.
The timing of this post might be a bit off: right now, this very moment, I believe Diablo is offering the best gaming experience any Diablo game ever offered to me. I absolutely love Reaper of Souls so far and some of the upcoming changes (Tiered Rifts) got me absolutely thrilled not just about the current game, but also its future direction.
That being said, I have one huge concern and that is the way seasons seem to be implemented. Let me say that although I don’t care about ladders/seasons myself I can totally see why this is a necessary feature for the game. The great success of Diabloprogress over the years and the thriving Twitch community are testament to this development, and I’m sure it will only add to the game’s experience. However, I think there are a couple of dangerous combinations in the upcoming changes; let me quote from the frontpage:
DiabloFans Quote:
This effect can already be experienced in the game right now, simply by RNG. For example, we’ve had a circle of about ~10 people that were all similarly geared in between 2.0.1 and RoS. We did countless hours of paragon leveling together. In RoS, we find ourselves on vastly different gear levels; some are perfectly geared for T6, while some still occasionally die on T4. It’s not a huge problem though: no one insights of playing T6 or even T5, the difference in loot is not that large. However, with Tiered Rifts this might change, as the following quotes will highlight:
DiabloFans Quote:
Now, what’s this all got to do with anything? Why can’t I simply play the game myself and enjoy whatever I enjoy doing? Why do I have to care about stuff that doesn’t affect me directly, but indirectly through my peers?
First of all, Diablo is focused on multiplayer. This has been confirmed lately in a bluepost. With the addition of clans and communities, the game to me almost feels like an MMORPG, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Therefore, you cannot simply dismiss concerns like “others outgear me if I don’t do X” by saying “stop caring about others”. There are so many challenges that are simply much easier to overcome if you team up; high-Torment rifts, ubers, or farming materials, just to mention a few. If you play solo and make no use of clan’s or communities’ benefits, chances are you are significantly behind right now (I know of an anecdotal evidence of this first hand). As of now, players of different gear levels can still play together - with some drawbacks, but it’s fine, as there’s no really bad implication besides an unnoticeable few percent less loot. With season-only gear and special Tiered Rifts rewards that only super fast groups are able to acquire, this leads to a segregation in the community. Even more so, it splits existing communities for no reason other than slightly different playstyles (maximum efficiency versus exploratory), RPG paradigm (frequent restart from scratch versus continuously gearing up one character), or even just RNG (someone who got unlucky at the beginning of a season has almost no chance to catch up as bad RNG leads to fewer success in Tiered Rifts and, subsequently, worse loot).
Secondly, and this is probably the most startling issue, the game was never about forcing anyone into any game mode or playstyle. Hardcore always existed in Diablo, but never had any advantages whatsoever. Never were there any hardcore-only legendaries, and although I’m a softcore player, I actually think hardcore deserves its own items (especially those with a revive effect like the 4 piece Firebird’s bonus). When paragon was introduced, the developers made sure over and over again to stress that paragon was not mandatory and just an additional incentive for people at maximum level to play on. Although acquiring some magic find was necessary, a paragon 70 player (which was achievable in not too much time) was not too far behind compared to a paragon 100 player (something I never got even close to). 90% more magic find - it was even possible to make up for this on gear, and the additional stats were not too significant either. Another example are Monster Power levels and Torment difficulties: although MP10 and T6 are the goal of every character, one could never play those and still achieve absolutely everything (“finding the sweet spot”).
TL;DR: Season-only legendaries and the transferral of season-only legendaries to non-season forces people into playing a game mode that not everyone might enjoy. By neglecting this new game mode, you risk “falling behind”, miss out on potentially game-changing items, and might find yourself separated from your friends, clan, and communities. Overall, it might result in an unnecessary segregation of the playerbase.
I know, the right way to address this is to post it on the official forums. I've done that before several times (more TL;DR) and was completely shot down. Either the feedback was dismissed/not replied to or I was declared a "QQ crybaby". Therefore, I ask for honest feedback here; I might iterate on this, make necessary edits, and post this on the official forums if you think it's worth it and I can get "signatories". It's difficult to get heard over there as the overwhelming majority on the official forums, from what I've read, welcomes those changes. But I still intend to forward this to the official channels, one way or another.
Since they said they will be adding new legendaries every season...
IMo they need to scrap paragon lvls when seasons start. and cap the lvl at 90 or 100.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Time2Kill-1230/hero/23330792
As I said, this gap already exists but it's not as critical because even a T6 capable player might join you on T3 or T4 for a while; still gets the same loot. With Tiered Rifts this is not the case: if you as the "non-season geared player" join them, they're slower and might not get to the special rewards of higher Tiered Rift levels.
That's different with seasons. And that's the whole thing.
Just for fun, imagine the following: the Wand of Woh only drops in HC. Do you believe the distribution of HC/SC players would be the same? I know for sure I'd play HC, even though I don't like HC.
in·cen·tive
inˈsentiv/
noun a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something.
force
fôrs/
noun coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence. verb make (someone) do something against their will.
NO ONE is forced to do anything in this game as far as choosing which game mode they want to play, they CHOOSE which game mode to play.
An incentive can become a force.
There's an incentive for doing bounties, called Horadric Caches. One of those drops a ring. This ring is not an incentive anymore, it's become a necessity; you are forced to run act 1 bounties to get this for progressing with your character.
You are simply considering "incentive" as something optional, but this is not true if the incentive is too good. And there is no reason why we should believe the incentive for season will be a sub-par item that is not competitive to endgame loot. Incentives often backfire and force people into doing things they don't want; it's a known fact and a very common mistake in studies (when the incentive is so high that people do things that they don't want to do, just to get the incentive).
Fact of the matter is, everyone needs incentive to keep playing a game, not just you and your special snowflake brigade. Please note that in your dictionary.com definition of incentive, it nowhere says ".. Encourages one to do something after their previous time expenditure has been voided."
Spare me the 'earned' and 'deserved' talk, spare me the choice rhetoric. The premise remains as such, they will not be wasting time adjusting (non-season) legendaries.
New game breaking builds will only be realized in one of three games modes, or with a 6 month delay.
Because I don't want to discard all of my previous progress, I am left playing an inferior game mode because YOU wouldn't EVEN BOTHER with a Season without new items.
Maybe I will spend some time on ladders, but most of the time I want to play with my friends on higher torment levels, not having to gear up again as I need much time for that (not playing that much as others). But I certainly would "miss" something, when I wasn't able to get the ladder-only items.
No. It shouldn't. Time spent should not be synonymous with 'best' in a 1 to 1 ratio. To me that would be the challenge of developing a rewarding experience. One where measures other than 'time spent' decide who gets what.
I have a much, much easier time understanding and accepting a more skilled player having better items/rewards, (any game, any genre) than I do one who just so happens to roll his face on the keyboard the equivalent of two full work weeks every 7 days.