If in fact ladders are in at ROS launch then these xp nerfs/fixes make complete sense, as a means to level the playfield and not shoehorn players into mira/cota etc. ad nauseum
The problem comes from the so-called hardcore players showing everyone where you can get that little more extra XP/h. Everyone and their mums will start doing them, even if it's hardly compelling gameplay. If it gives you an edge, people will do it. If these hardcore players wouldn't TELL people these sort of things, people would just find their own route that would satisfy them most.
Is it a flaw of Blizzard in being unable to balance everything completely, or the playerbase with a very big urge to always follow the "hardcore" players. I sincerely believe it to be the latter. People are too much focussed on power that they get blinded by the fact they're not actually having fun. Yes, I have tried some things in certain games that turned out to be anything but fun. I've stopped doing those things for the very simple reason it was starting to either upset me (which is bad, to a degree) or bore me (which is, to me, even worse in something that is supposed to be entertainment).
This is the very reason I'm looking forward to adventure mode. To me, it offers the perks of being able to just quickly accomplish something in the game. It's always new, whilst being the most rewarding in the game. Odd combinations of mobs. Mallet lords between your dune-trashers? Sand wasps and phase-beasts? Enjoy!
They're trying to save people from becoming bored of a game that has yet to be released. The power players fail to see this yet I think. I'd like to keep playing D3 a damn sight longer than the coming week and then just be bored out of my skull of seeing skeletons or demonic vessels.
Why is wanting to progress in the most efficient way possible such an evil concept? Also how have you determined what amount of fun anyone but yourself is having? Again, I don't really care about the nerfs, i personally just reset all quests on my wiz today to change of pace a little bit, but I have always been fascinated by the amount that people care how others play a game that has little to no effect on their actual gameplay. There is no competition in this game it is individual achievement, why does someone else effect you so much.
If you think about it, Even in these last 2-3 days before RoS, these more hardcore players can have fun finding the next "best place for leveling up" and to show everyone, and the regular players can have fun farming whatever they wantwithout feeling like they're greatly gimping themselves(which is the biggest argument here).
This is where I see the problem, to be honest. There is an obvious need for players to search for runs like that in the first place. That (for me at least) is a sign that overall the game is not overall satisfying and people can't equally enjoy the game or achieve their goals (be it highest paragon level or that elusive legendary set or whatever) at any given act, any given zone and need to constantly search for a better place to satisfy the demand for whatever goal they play D3 for.
I dare say that this "problem" of players de-constructing the game mathematically is not totally blizzards fault. its the fault of the gamers as well.
blizzard made the game so that running around smashing clay pots in a cemetery will eventually give you a legendary item. yes it seems rather silly on paper. but in contrast the players jumped on it instantly to a degree of absurdity. people wrote programs that just ran characters around smashing clay pots, or hunting goblins that were discovered to spawn in the same locations repeatedly. and this is completely in spite of how well the game feels to play a huge portion of the time.
So i think if viewing what the playerbase will get up to overall its WAY more ridiculous than the comparatively small mistakes blizzard made about the delivery of loot and gold and XP.
players that measure and gobble up "XP"...(that term annoys the cunting fuck out of me....) in the billions....and just break the game down to how many billions XP i can harvest per hour.....annoy me to say the least.....and they are a global phenomenon, becuase that information is distributed globally with almost zero effort. just like the items in the AH.
blizzard by comparison just made a game and whoops gave the small minions more experience than the large ones. or made a goblin spawn in the same cave all the time.....
So yea it may look dumb that Blizzard keeps "nerfing urns and little spiders" Etc....when speaking specifically about that issue.
but in my opinion the players look even dumber slurping up XP so aggressively overall...
And they slurp with some alarming voracity when viewing the worldwide player base as a whole.
It's not about laziness. It's not that they're lazy. It's that they're slow. The thing is, they're a lot faster than they used to be, and they communicate better than they used to. It used to be, in previous Blizzard titles, that you'd get no warning (still happens) and you'd get these vast sweeping changes out of nowhere (Doesn't happen now, usually it's 2-3 small changes) with no real reasons given. (Also doesn't happen, now Blizzard will clarify why they make changes.)
The thing is, you know that CotA is broken, I know it's broken. Blizzard wants you to play more than one little tiny section of the game. Having something like CotA which is vastly superior to pretty much everything else is not good for the game. Resetting a cave over and over and over and over again every 20 seconds is obviously bad for the game. Mobs that offer up no resistance shouldn't give experience that good. The problem isn't that they nerfed CotA, it's that they didn't make the change sooner. They dicked around and nerfed things as they became exploited rather than applying this obvious EXP change at the first sign that it would be an issue, or having it in the patch.
So it's not laziness, it's just that they're slow. If this was in the patch instead of weeks later nobody would bat an eye at the change.
"Reduced the amount of experience granted by monsters with lower than average health pools."
They could have just nerfed cota and i wouldnt have cared one bit, but this? not cool bro
No, this is how the fix NEEDED to be. They can't just nerf CotA. If they nerf CotA they don't solve the issue, players just find a new spot with good mob density and ridiculously low health mobs and do the same thing there. They needed to identify the problem, which is swarming low health mobs granting too much EXP and fix it across the board, which is what they did. They should have done it sooner though, or explained their reasoning better and preferably with a little advanced notice so that people didn't feel blindsided.
as of now? i am getting 1/3 xp from killing "low hp" mobs while playing normally on t6, thats how, not to mention they are quiet plentyfull in d3. I also like to level even if i dont do cota, and now im just doing it slower, because of the nerf, because of the cota players, get it? Ofc this isnt a major problem now, but these players will do the same crap in the expansion, and the ones who play the game as intended will suffer.
"Reduced the amount of experience granted by monsters with lower than average health pools."
They could have just nerfed cota and i wouldnt have cared one bit, but this? not cool bro
No, I don't get it. You're blaming the players for the way that Blizz intervenes and nerfs stuff like this. I'm saying that the nerf is the problem, not the players.
@Shurgosa I wouldn't really call it the players "fault", as a negative thing. It's just how people like to play games.
Some people like to be competitive even when sitting with a group of friends drinking some fucking beer. "Yo dawg, look.. I can drink 5 more beers than you.." - to which a normal's person answer usually is "who gives a fuck?"
But that doesn't change how people are. People like to compete. And people need to realize that some change every now and then is both good for these competitive players and to normal players as well (despite how bad the change might actually be, if that makes sense).
No, I don't get it. You're blaming the players for the way that Blizz intervenes and nerfs stuff like this. I'm saying that the nerf is the problem, not the players.
The nerf CAN'T be the problem when it pertains to XP/hr rates.
When they designed the Paragon system they clearly had some general XP/hr rate in mind. Let's call that Y.
Now, let's just say they find out that CotA is equal to 2 * Y. They have two options:
1) Nerf the outlier
2) Buff *everything else* which also entails redoing the entire Paragon curve to take into account that people are now getting double the XP/hr that they had intended.
If you believe that 1 is not the proper solution then you're being argumentative because 2 is clearly not feasible or sustainable and also involves significantly more work. The reality of the situation is that outliers have to be nerfed otherwise all we end up in is some arms race. Something is 15% above everything else? BUFF. Something new is 17% ahead? BUFF.
All that accomplishes is pointless mudflation. We already have damage numbers in the millions. If the solution is "never nerf, always buff" then within a few months we'll be in the billions. What good does that serve?
No, I don't get it. You're blaming the players for the way that Blizz intervenes and nerfs stuff like this. I'm saying that the nerf is the problem, not the players.
The nerf CAN'T be the problem when it pertains to XP/hr rates.
When they designed the Paragon system they clearly had some general XP/hr rate in mind. Let's call that Y.
Now, let's just say they find out that CotA is equal to 2 * Y. They have two options:
1) Nerf the outlier
2) Buff *everything else* which also entails redoing the entire Paragon curve to take into account that people are now getting double the XP/hr that they had intended.
If you believe that 1 is not the proper solution then you're being argumentative because 2 is clearly not feasible or sustainable and also involves significantly more work. The reality of the situation is that outliers have to be nerfed otherwise all we end up in is some arms race. Something is 15% above everything else? BUFF. Something new is 17% ahead? BUFF.
All that accomplishes is pointless mudflation. We already have damage numbers in the millions. If the solution is "never nerf, always buff" then within a few months we'll be in the billions. What good does that serve?
So, in this instance I would not be completely against them nerfing CotA a bit if they really felt the need to (which the obviously did.) I don't like it, but I don't represent the entire player base. I agree that they can't just go around buffing everything when an outlier is found for the same reason you mention. However, they didn't just nerf the outlier, they nerfed *all* areas which contain these sort of mobs.
What I don't understand is why they had to nerf *other* areas in the process. What I don't understand is why they think nerfing drops in difficulties prior to Torment somehow makes Torment "more rewarding." In comparison, sure, but it's the same Torment. It's not making Torment more fun, it's making the other difficulties *less* fun.
Anyway, like I said, I'm reserving judgement as a lot is about to change. This may very well be completely irrelevant in a couple of days, I just question the methodology. Of course, RoS has Torment only legendaries, and I think that's a good thing. I do like most of what the new crew has done so far.
The problem comes from the so-called hardcore players showing everyone where you can get that little more extra XP/h. Everyone and their mums will start doing them, even if it's hardly compelling gameplay. If it gives you an edge, people will do it. If these hardcore players wouldn't TELL people these sort of things, people would just find their own route that would satisfy them most.
Is it a flaw of Blizzard in being unable to balance everything completely, or the playerbase with a very big urge to always follow the "hardcore" players. I sincerely believe it to be the latter. People are too much focussed on power that they get blinded by the fact they're not actually having fun. Yes, I have tried some things in certain games that turned out to be anything but fun. I've stopped doing those things for the very simple reason it was starting to either upset me (which is bad, to a degree) or bore me (which is, to me, even worse in something that is supposed to be entertainment).
This is the very reason I'm looking forward to adventure mode. To me, it offers the perks of being able to just quickly accomplish something in the game. It's always new, whilst being the most rewarding in the game. Odd combinations of mobs. Mallet lords between your dune-trashers? Sand wasps and phase-beasts? Enjoy!
They're trying to save people from becoming bored of a game that has yet to be released. The power players fail to see this yet I think. I'd like to keep playing D3 a damn sight longer than the coming week and then just be bored out of my skull of seeing skeletons or demonic vessels.
Why is wanting to progress in the most efficient way possible such an evil concept? Also how have you determined what amount of fun anyone but yourself is having? Again, I don't really care about the nerfs, i personally just reset all quests on my wiz today to change of pace a little bit, but I have always been fascinated by the amount that people care how others play a game that has little to no effect on their actual gameplay. There is no competition in this game it is individual achievement, why does someone else effect you so much.
It is not an evil concept. The issue arises when it's just once yhing over-and-over again. Then it becomes an evil concept. I've never said that I know for a fact that everyone else relishes in doing these runs but me. I'm quite sure that there are, however, people that do not enjoy doing them, but do them plain simply becuase it's the most efficient way. It might also be the mosst efficient way for them to get burned out on the game. Blizzard knows very well how many people do these runs. They can see if a large portion of the playerbase does little else, they should step in. Blizzard also knows from experience (read: WoW) that people will take the path of least resistance. How many people complained that dailies were boring? Yet, since it was the easiest way of obtaining powerful items and currency, people did them en-masse. Same applies here. People might not necessarily ENJOY doing them, but they crave power. The only way for Blizzard to step in is to guide the player away. How do people get burned out? By not listening to their own brains and bodies when something they do is repetitive or straining. Anyone but you can tell you this, otherwise, you would never get burned out.
I sincerely do not care how other people play the game, but I do believe that for the longevity of the game, Blizzard did the right thing, steering people from repetitive actions.
By this argument, Blizzard should have left the cota unnerfed, so that all the players that are playing the game "improperly" could get burnt out and no longer play the game and therefore eliminate on the ways they ruin the game for other people. Thus saving server strain that these players cause, with no rmah and no sub blizz wouldn't be missing out on anything!
@Shurgosa I wouldn't really call it the players "fault", as a negative thing. It's just how people like to play games.
Some people like to be competitive even when sitting with a group of friends drinking some fucking beer. "Yo dawg, look.. I can drink 5 more beers than you.." - to which a normal's person answer usually is "who gives a fuck?"
But that doesn't change how people are. People like to compete. And people need to realize that some change every now and then is both good for these competitive players and to normal players as well (despite how bad the change might actually be, if that makes sense).
Maybe fault is the wrong word. and yes to be clear I am talking about a HUGE amount of players ( the whole world) in order to make this casual observation.
although some people might not be concerned about it I do consider it a negative thing. But thats just my own opinion on this specific topic.
If I made the game cookie clicker? I might not mind this as much. But if I made Diablo 3? I'd be furious...not at a group specifically like players or programmer or manager or even a fundamental game design rule....I'd be furious at the end result in this extremely specific scenario, THEN I'd be furious at specifically who does it AND furious at who or what enabled it. IE: neither side of the equation is predefined and neither side is free of fault.
There are many rules in sports that have sprang up to enhance the game and curb behavior and I'm sure many people support and decry each rule but if you examine the situation and see what changes came (IE: did the game become less exciting? did players stop doing dumb shit? did injuries really go down? etc....) even though everyone is competitive and indeed the goal of the game is to simply "score more points", both the rule makers of the game and the players of the game are expected to behave a certain way, by way of either creating changes or rules or following changes or rules. I feel that both players and rule makers are supposed to act intelligently when rules are not written and then just plead ignorance...
I can't really say that blizzard should have done this or that or that players need to do this or that.
I have to say that to both parties always and both parties I would hope, always say it to themselves.
I just realized how long I could sit and blather on about this..................we need D3 caucus with live broadcast 24-7......lol
Fact is, they nerfed "swarm mobs" i.e. Skeletons in cota...and along the way, they nerfed them ALL in act1.
Cath1-4, Crypts, Festering Woods...everywhere.
So this "litle Hotfix" is actually affecting the whole Act.
They could have reduced the amount of Mobs in cota, but no, they fuck it all up. Because its the easy way out.
I used to run Cath4 regulary, but now...Skeletons doesnt drop Legs...give almost no XP. Why even bother ?
Why should monsters that have lower HPs, and therefore much lower risk, give the same XP as monsters that are tougher to kill and actually have a chance to kill you? It's called risk vs reward and what CotA showed us was that these low-HP monsters *shouldn't* give the same XP as more-dangerous monsters.
It's because of discrepancies like this that people make up runs that avoid elites and such... because the EASY, NO-RISK, monsters are far too profitable. This was an issue beyond CotA. If you think it was limited just to CotA then you're kidding yourself.
Quote from Jayonnaise»Why should act 1 give the most exp?
Why reduce the Mob Density along the Game in 2.01?
We had plenty of sweet Spots to farm pre 2.01, and they nerfed it back the way we got rid of not to long ago.
Quote from Jayonnaise»Why should act 1 give the most exp?
Why reduce the Mob Density along the Game in 2.01?
We had plenty of sweet Spots to farm pre 2.01, and they nerfed it back the way we got rid of not to long ago.
They made an explanation for that and it was reasonable. They did it because the 1.0.8 density was making AoE skills too strong, which hurts build diversity.
I think the message is clear, some just aren't getting it yet.
Diablo 3 wants you to earn your bonuses/loot through dynamic gameplay, not Baal Runs 2.02
I don't think anyone is debating that. It's a matter of how I want to play v how the devs want me to play. It's just a matter of philosophy, not right or wrong. You have two ends of the spectrum; Blizz, which more often than not will change the game to prevent players from playing in a way that doesn't jive with their intentions and, say, something like Eve.
Now, I know it's a silly comparison, but I'm not comparing the two games, just the design philosophies. Eve is a giant sandbox where the players determine how the game is played. DIII wants to steer you down a specific path at all times. Neither is wrong, just different. I like a mix of both and I don't see a problem with optimal paths to <whatever> existing in DIII.
blizzard made the game so that running around smashing clay pots in a cemetery will eventually give you a legendary item. yes it seems rather silly on paper. but in contrast the players jumped on it instantly to a degree of absurdity. people wrote programs that just ran characters around smashing clay pots, or hunting goblins that were discovered to spawn in the same locations repeatedly. and this is completely in spite of how well the game feels to play a huge portion of the time.
So i think if viewing what the playerbase will get up to overall its WAY more ridiculous than the comparatively small mistakes blizzard made about the delivery of loot and gold and XP.
players that measure and gobble up "XP"...(that term annoys the cunting fuck out of me....) in the billions....and just break the game down to how many billions XP i can harvest per hour.....annoy me to say the least.....and they are a global phenomenon, becuase that information is distributed globally with almost zero effort. just like the items in the AH.
blizzard by comparison just made a game and whoops gave the small minions more experience than the large ones. or made a goblin spawn in the same cave all the time.....
So yea it may look dumb that Blizzard keeps "nerfing urns and little spiders" Etc....when speaking specifically about that issue.
but in my opinion the players look even dumber slurping up XP so aggressively overall...
And they slurp with some alarming voracity when viewing the worldwide player base as a whole.
The thing is, you know that CotA is broken, I know it's broken. Blizzard wants you to play more than one little tiny section of the game. Having something like CotA which is vastly superior to pretty much everything else is not good for the game. Resetting a cave over and over and over and over again every 20 seconds is obviously bad for the game. Mobs that offer up no resistance shouldn't give experience that good. The problem isn't that they nerfed CotA, it's that they didn't make the change sooner. They dicked around and nerfed things as they became exploited rather than applying this obvious EXP change at the first sign that it would be an issue, or having it in the patch.
So it's not laziness, it's just that they're slow. If this was in the patch instead of weeks later nobody would bat an eye at the change.
No, this is how the fix NEEDED to be. They can't just nerf CotA. If they nerf CotA they don't solve the issue, players just find a new spot with good mob density and ridiculously low health mobs and do the same thing there. They needed to identify the problem, which is swarming low health mobs granting too much EXP and fix it across the board, which is what they did. They should have done it sooner though, or explained their reasoning better and preferably with a little advanced notice so that people didn't feel blindsided.
Some people like to be competitive even when sitting with a group of friends drinking some fucking beer. "Yo dawg, look.. I can drink 5 more beers than you.." - to which a normal's person answer usually is "who gives a fuck?"
But that doesn't change how people are. People like to compete. And people need to realize that some change every now and then is both good for these competitive players and to normal players as well (despite how bad the change might actually be, if that makes sense).
When they designed the Paragon system they clearly had some general XP/hr rate in mind. Let's call that Y.
Now, let's just say they find out that CotA is equal to 2 * Y. They have two options:
1) Nerf the outlier
2) Buff *everything else* which also entails redoing the entire Paragon curve to take into account that people are now getting double the XP/hr that they had intended.
If you believe that 1 is not the proper solution then you're being argumentative because 2 is clearly not feasible or sustainable and also involves significantly more work. The reality of the situation is that outliers have to be nerfed otherwise all we end up in is some arms race. Something is 15% above everything else? BUFF. Something new is 17% ahead? BUFF.
All that accomplishes is pointless mudflation. We already have damage numbers in the millions. If the solution is "never nerf, always buff" then within a few months we'll be in the billions. What good does that serve?
What I don't understand is why they had to nerf *other* areas in the process. What I don't understand is why they think nerfing drops in difficulties prior to Torment somehow makes Torment "more rewarding." In comparison, sure, but it's the same Torment. It's not making Torment more fun, it's making the other difficulties *less* fun.
Anyway, like I said, I'm reserving judgement as a lot is about to change. This may very well be completely irrelevant in a couple of days, I just question the methodology. Of course, RoS has Torment only legendaries, and I think that's a good thing. I do like most of what the new crew has done so far.
Fixing the Game is more Work as patching up little Things, and screwing up the Game even futher.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Fact is, they nerfed "swarm mobs" i.e. Skeletons in cota...and along the way, they nerfed them ALL in act1.
Cath1-4, Crypts, Festering Woods...everywhere.
So this "litle Hotfix" is actually affecting the whole Act.
They could have reduced the amount of Mobs in cota, but no, they fuck it all up. Because its the easy way out.
I used to run Cath4 regulary, but now...Skeletons doesnt drop Legs...give almost no XP. Why even bother ?
Maybe fault is the wrong word. and yes to be clear I am talking about a HUGE amount of players ( the whole world) in order to make this casual observation.
although some people might not be concerned about it I do consider it a negative thing. But thats just my own opinion on this specific topic.
If I made the game cookie clicker? I might not mind this as much. But if I made Diablo 3? I'd be furious...not at a group specifically like players or programmer or manager or even a fundamental game design rule....I'd be furious at the end result in this extremely specific scenario, THEN I'd be furious at specifically who does it AND furious at who or what enabled it. IE: neither side of the equation is predefined and neither side is free of fault.
There are many rules in sports that have sprang up to enhance the game and curb behavior and I'm sure many people support and decry each rule but if you examine the situation and see what changes came (IE: did the game become less exciting? did players stop doing dumb shit? did injuries really go down? etc....) even though everyone is competitive and indeed the goal of the game is to simply "score more points", both the rule makers of the game and the players of the game are expected to behave a certain way, by way of either creating changes or rules or following changes or rules. I feel that both players and rule makers are supposed to act intelligently when rules are not written and then just plead ignorance...
I can't really say that blizzard should have done this or that or that players need to do this or that.
I have to say that to both parties always and both parties I would hope, always say it to themselves.
I just realized how long I could sit and blather on about this..................we need D3 caucus with live broadcast 24-7......lol
It's because of discrepancies like this that people make up runs that avoid elites and such... because the EASY, NO-RISK, monsters are far too profitable. This was an issue beyond CotA. If you think it was limited just to CotA then you're kidding yourself.
We had plenty of sweet Spots to farm pre 2.01, and they nerfed it back the way we got rid of not to long ago.
Diablo 3 wants you to earn your bonuses/loot through dynamic gameplay, not Baal Runs 2.02
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Now, I know it's a silly comparison, but I'm not comparing the two games, just the design philosophies. Eve is a giant sandbox where the players determine how the game is played. DIII wants to steer you down a specific path at all times. Neither is wrong, just different. I like a mix of both and I don't see a problem with optimal paths to <whatever> existing in DIII.
It's just how I want to play and it doesn't hurt anyone.