I guess I'm still getting used to the whole new number system in regards to DPS, Toughness and Healing. My question is really about toughness. Before patch 2.0, getting resistances up was really the way to go in order to be able to progress into higher difficulties. While the resistance statistic is still there, we all know it is a component of toughness. Now my question is, does resistance actually matter? Or is Toughness really the only thing that matters for survivability? Meaning, I can get a high real high toughness without really having too much into All Resist. I almost feel strange when I find items that have 0 all resist (or any resist for that matter), but it increases my toughness. Is worrying about resistances kind of an old school thought at this point and doesnt really matter as long as toughness increases?
Uhhh....let me rephrase your question- do you like getting one shotted by jailer/frozen/pulse/etc? Cuz that's what happens without resistances in higher torments. You think stacking armor/vit/life % for a high toughness will make up for low resists? Doesn't do much good to have 200k health if you're taking full damage from boss abilities.
Like, have you tried playing on anything higher than Torment 1? That alone would answer your question.
Depending on my mood, Im either running the campaign on T4, or just running CoTA on T5 with an average All Resist of about 550 and a toughness of 1,000,000. In my mind, the 550 all resist really isnt all that high which is why I asked the question.
I'm not so sure that Badglad's response is correct, except in some bizarre, outlying circumstance. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is how much hit points an attack will take from your pool of hit points, regardless of what type of attack it is. Let's say you have 1 millon toughness. If it came only from hitpoints, you would have 1 000 000 life (?). With this amount of hit points, you most certainly would not get one-shot, any more than you do with one million toughness from a combination of 100 000 hit points compounded with the requisite amount of armor, dodge and all resists (the normal situation). For all intents and purposes, effective hit points are effective hit points (toughness). Of course, if you derive a large quantity of your effective hit points from lightning resist, if that is even possible, you would struggle against fire. But it isn't weighted particularly high by the in-game EHP calculator, and who in their right mind would do this anyway.
Not sure about this, just putting out a counter-thesis.
I guess I'm still getting used to the whole new number system in regards to DPS, Toughness and Healing. My question is really about toughness. Before patch 2.0, getting resistances up was really the way to go in order to be able to progress into higher difficulties. While the resistance statistic is still there, we all know it is a component of toughness. Now my question is, does resistance actually matter? Or is Toughness really the only thing that matters for survivability? Meaning, I can get a high real high toughness without really having too much into All Resist. I almost feel strange when I find items that have 0 all resist (or any resist for that matter), but it increases my toughness. Is worrying about resistances kind of an old school thought at this point and doesnt really matter as long as toughness increases?
Toughness is the games rough measurement of "EHP" which is effective healthpool. many different things add to the tougness number and not in the most intelligent way. for example Dodge will ramp up your toughness even though in practice you may feel more flimsy in certain fights. block can do this as well...
I'm kind of certain that the monk passive "one with everything", While piling on HEAPS of resistances, does not get taken into consideration with the new toughness tooltips. Also having lopsided armor / Allres is a bad idea on paper due to how closely related they are in practice.
And we have not even touched on how healing now comes into play. players are no longer slurping 200,000 life per second from damage they cause. all of a sudden passive life regen really makes a conformable fight.
So yes you can get a really high toughness without having too much allres. but it may not be optimal. resistances are still a part of an equation that leads to durability when taking damage. and the best yardstick to measure your toughness is your own experience from testing and fighting.
Ultimately the highest EHPs are going to come from a mix of armor, resistances, life% and vitality.
Quote from ot4ku»
The thing you have to keep in mind though is, if you are stacking mostly vita and Life%, that you have to heal that missing life. And your selfheal / absorb doesn't increase if you are just pushing your life.
Life/sec, life/hit, and life/kill scale worse with more HPs, but health globes and potions scale directly with HPs, so it's not quite that simple as saying "more HPs means you need more healing." That's partially true, but two fairly-major sources of healing scale directly up as your HPs scale up meaning that you don't notice the fact that the other sources of healing aren't scaling up quite as much.
Ultimately, though, you can't get high toughness by going one way or the other because as your mitigation gets higher the value of each HP increases (with 80% total mitigation that makes every 1 HP worth 1.8 HPs, for example) and as your HPs get higher each percent of mitigation becomes better. The amount of mitigation you'd have to stack, without stacking HPs too, to get high toughness is astronomical, just like it would be near-impossible to get 1 million toughness via HPs only it's near-impossible to do it via mitigation only.
For most every player a mix of HPs and mitigation is the way to go. I used to have 1100+ resist all. I'm down to about 875+ resist all, but my armor and HPs are up massively by sacrificing that resist all. As a result I've gone from about 500k toughness to over 800k toughness and incoming damage is largely laughable.
Ok, Im glad you have pretty much countered what Badglad has said. I just wanted to verify that what I thought to be true, is true. It seems it doesnt matter where the toughness actually comes from, as long as you get a lot. I was in the same boat as to having around 400k toughness with high all resist, and decided to ditch a ton of all resist for more armor etc, and I was able to increase the Torment levels easily. Thanks for the help folks, but not so much the snarky response from Badglad =P
Toughness is your ehp so its a good measure. If you want to know your overall mitigation however, you'll have to calculate it by looking at your armor and resistance damage reduction which will stack multiplicatively with one another.
Yup, stacking vit and life % solely all day to boost that crude representation of toughness without armor/resistances to back it up is 10/10 foolproof.
"It doesn't matter where you get toughness" the amount of stupid has me rolling on the floor
"It doesn't matter where you get toughness" the amount of stupid has me rolling on the floor
In general, that's exactly what you should do because it's entirely unlikely that you will only be getting vit/life% or armor/res all. For 99.9999% of players, they'll be having a mostly-balanced approach just due to randomly-generated gear... and even so, you'll still have a decent bit of mitigation and life from Paragon.
It's so ridiculously unlikely that the 1 million HP, no res, no armor character is ever made that it's not worth talking about that like it's an actual outcome.
Life is probably the least important of the toughness-related stats, because the more life you have the less effective your healing will be.
well.... you might be correct about its usual value in any discovered EHP formulas.......
there are certain heals that are based on your total life pool. and some of them can be SUPER good "investments" (thankfully)
thats why I fell in love with the barbarian class; it certainly had nothing to do with the dual tornado infinite WotB.....
certain sly and subtle configurations of stats, talents, and skills can be all twisted and knotted together to yield so much survival its was almost unnerving!
Good god how I will miss the old blood slurping rend.............
Life is probably the least important of the toughness-related stats, because the more life you have the less effective your healing will be.
That is an accurate statement....
.... if you don't consider health globes and health potions healing.
Additionally, there are certain skills/passives that heal based on a %age of your total life (Blood Ritual, as an example) which clearly gets more potent with more total HPs.
So, to say that life is bad because it makes healing worse.... is simply inaccurate.
Life is probably the least important of the toughness-related stats, because the more life you have the less effective your healing will be.
That is an accurate statement....
.... if you don't consider health globes and health potions healing.
Additionally, there are certain skills/passives that heal based on a %age of your total life (Blood Ritual, as an example) which clearly gets more potent with more total HPs.
So, to say that life is bad because it makes healing worse.... is simply inaccurate.
Health potions are emergency only with a long cooldown and health globes can be inconsistent, or even dangerous to pick up. But if you've got decent healing then you can be restoring a significant portion of your life every second.
Obviously there is a compromise to be had, you wouldn't take a 10% toughness drop just because it adds 10 armor, but in general I would say life is the least important component of toughness.
All components are quite important in the toughness category. Quite a few of the components do suffer from diminishing returns. Sometimes it is better to look for items that boosts other components that make up the toughness category.
Having too much life is better than not having enough life. Some skills and potions/life globes are based on max life.
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I'm kind of certain that the monk passive "one with everything", While piling on HEAPS of resistances, does not get taken into consideration with the new toughness tooltips.
I think it does. Enable it and my toughness goes up, disable it then it goes down.
This discussion comes up almost on a weekly basis. I really don't see the problem some people are having with toughness. If you are concerned about it, it's not the ONLY stat you can look at. All the stats and displays we used to have in D3V are still there, toughness (aka EHP) was just added to give us an overall picture. In all MMORPGs EHP has been established as the best measure for defense, it is widely used to communicate if someone is a glass canon or not. Many D3V guides ended with certain EHP recommendations, but the only way to find out about this was to log out and sync D3up, or enter all your data into a spreadsheet - very tedious.
Is toughness the only stat you should look at? Of course not. But should you only be looking at health, or only be looking at allres, or only be looking at amor? No. Many people, however, did exactly this - remember that the overwhelming majority of the people never uses any 3rd party tools outside of the game, let alone is interested in calculating their EHP. The majority of people doesn't even play on Torment (source). For those it is extremely helpful to have the "toughness" stat. If you are one of the selected few that have become extremely proficient in knowing the game's mechanics - good for you. Open up the detailed character screen and look at the individual stats, it's what I do as well. Nevertheless, sometimes toughness helps me to make sure I'm not going into the wrong direction.
Can you be a one-shot by stacking too much allres/armor and forgetting about life? Possibly. Can you have so much life that your toughness is reasonably high, but your mitigation is so low that you'll just die in an instant? Possibly as well. But we're talking about edge cases here, no one would end up with 300k life and go on Torment 6 and then figure out "something's wrong". If you're playing on high Torment difficulties, the game is about more than just looking at three stats.
TL;DR: Toughness is fine, it's a good measure of your defense, and if you feel that it's not that trust your gut and ignore it because it possibly means that your understanding goes deeper than that of average Joe.
Btw, at level 70 you need A LOT of toughness to play on high Torment levels, and you can't get there by simply stacking life and ignoring mitigation, so this issue might resolve itself in 2 weeks.
Obviously there is a compromise to be had, you wouldn't take a 10% toughness drop just because it adds 10 armor, but in general I would say life is the least important component of toughness.
I don't disagree that life may be the "least important" but I think I disagree with how "unimportant" you continue to play it off to be.
EHP versus monster DPS leads to time to live. While this is a "tanking" concept from MMORPGs, it still applies. If Azmodan deals 50,000 DPS and you just stand there and eat everything and you have 1 million EHP, that means you have 20 seconds (with zero healing) before he kills you.
It also should be noted that your time to live does NOT change at all whether your EHP comes from armor and all res or vit and life% or some combination thereof. If you have 1 million HP and zero mitigation, every hit is full damage, so you take the full 50,000 damage every time, but you still have 20 seconds to live. If you have 100,000 HP and 90% mitigation you get hit for 5,000 each time and STILL have 20 seconds to live.
But no one actually has that setup. Because of primary stats and base armor on items, it really wouldn't be possible to build a character that has much less than 30% total mitigation. It's also improbable to go for 95%+ mitigation because that would routinely require you to sacrifice huge chunks of EHP just for more mitigation.
Even for me, I have about 55% from armor and 75% from resistances which is roughly 83% total mitigation paired with about 90k HPs and in MOST scenarios my healing (healing stat is roughly 5,000) outpaces the incoming damage. This means that adding more mitigation without dropping some healing is pointless.
There's no point in mitigating more damage than your incoming healing heals you for. That's just wasting stats. So, in cases like this, you *are* better adding HPs.
As for your other statement... to boil potions down to "emergency" is silly. They can be used quite tactically. And to dismiss globes as "dangerous to pick up" is silly. Get a little pickup radius and they're not really that dangerous. Besides, it's not like life/hit doesn't suffer from similar dangers... if you have to reposition a monster, for example, it can continue to attack you, but you're not attacking it so you're not getting healing. That doesn't mean life/sec sucks, though. So if you're going to talk about the downsides of one, it'd be good to talk about the downsides of the other.
All that being said, there are still skills and passives that are %age based. For the WD, I immediately think of Spirit Walk - Healing Journey and Blood Ritual. So even if globes and potions are terrible (they're not), there are STILL skills and passives which are based on total HPs.
I'm kind of certain that the monk passive "one with everything", While piling on HEAPS of resistances, does not get taken into consideration with the new toughness tooltips.
I think it does. Enable it and my toughness goes up, disable it then it goes down.
Yes your character sheet may show the change, but Item tool-tips that show you the anticipated gain or loss shows you different result before you use the items. I was curious enough to test it last night:
This picture was taken when I was using One With Everything, and I was stacking poison resist on many other pieces so on your character sheet both rings would have added 42 resistance to all types of damage, but the tool tip said that the 42 All resistance would have been a much better gain in EHP.
Its not a huge curve ball, but it is an example of things not being so cut and dry. The Juggernaut passive springs to mind. I cant really list them off in my head but It's those tiny zany bizarre little quirks in the numbers game that I find the most appealing about the game; That they have to be read into with an abstract mind despite their straightforward computation.
Those rings that cause you to heal a percentage of arcane damage?? GREAT item! What's the math on it? I dont know. But what I do know is that 40 minutes from now I'm going to be standing in a field with 13 of them up my ass replenishing my life How's that for toughness
Like, have you tried playing on anything higher than Torment 1? That alone would answer your question.
Not sure about this, just putting out a counter-thesis.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/sodomir-2220/
I'm kind of certain that the monk passive "one with everything", While piling on HEAPS of resistances, does not get taken into consideration with the new toughness tooltips. Also having lopsided armor / Allres is a bad idea on paper due to how closely related they are in practice.
And we have not even touched on how healing now comes into play. players are no longer slurping 200,000 life per second from damage they cause. all of a sudden passive life regen really makes a conformable fight.
So yes you can get a really high toughness without having too much allres. but it may not be optimal. resistances are still a part of an equation that leads to durability when taking damage. and the best yardstick to measure your toughness is your own experience from testing and fighting.
Life/sec, life/hit, and life/kill scale worse with more HPs, but health globes and potions scale directly with HPs, so it's not quite that simple as saying "more HPs means you need more healing." That's partially true, but two fairly-major sources of healing scale directly up as your HPs scale up meaning that you don't notice the fact that the other sources of healing aren't scaling up quite as much.
Ultimately, though, you can't get high toughness by going one way or the other because as your mitigation gets higher the value of each HP increases (with 80% total mitigation that makes every 1 HP worth 1.8 HPs, for example) and as your HPs get higher each percent of mitigation becomes better. The amount of mitigation you'd have to stack, without stacking HPs too, to get high toughness is astronomical, just like it would be near-impossible to get 1 million toughness via HPs only it's near-impossible to do it via mitigation only.
For most every player a mix of HPs and mitigation is the way to go. I used to have 1100+ resist all. I'm down to about 875+ resist all, but my armor and HPs are up massively by sacrificing that resist all. As a result I've gone from about 500k toughness to over 800k toughness and incoming damage is largely laughable.
"It doesn't matter where you get toughness" the amount of stupid has me rolling on the floor
It's so ridiculously unlikely that the 1 million HP, no res, no armor character is ever made that it's not worth talking about that like it's an actual outcome.
You can not just look at the toughness but look at the whole picture.
there are certain heals that are based on your total life pool. and some of them can be SUPER good "investments" (thankfully)
thats why I fell in love with the barbarian class; it certainly had nothing to do with the dual tornado infinite WotB.....
certain sly and subtle configurations of stats, talents, and skills can be all twisted and knotted together to yield so much survival its was almost unnerving!
Good god how I will miss the old blood slurping rend.............
.... if you don't consider health globes and health potions healing.
Additionally, there are certain skills/passives that heal based on a %age of your total life (Blood Ritual, as an example) which clearly gets more potent with more total HPs.
So, to say that life is bad because it makes healing worse.... is simply inaccurate.
Obviously there is a compromise to be had, you wouldn't take a 10% toughness drop just because it adds 10 armor, but in general I would say life is the least important component of toughness.
Having too much life is better than not having enough life. Some skills and potions/life globes are based on max life.
Is toughness the only stat you should look at? Of course not. But should you only be looking at health, or only be looking at allres, or only be looking at amor? No. Many people, however, did exactly this - remember that the overwhelming majority of the people never uses any 3rd party tools outside of the game, let alone is interested in calculating their EHP. The majority of people doesn't even play on Torment (source). For those it is extremely helpful to have the "toughness" stat. If you are one of the selected few that have become extremely proficient in knowing the game's mechanics - good for you. Open up the detailed character screen and look at the individual stats, it's what I do as well. Nevertheless, sometimes toughness helps me to make sure I'm not going into the wrong direction.
Can you be a one-shot by stacking too much allres/armor and forgetting about life? Possibly. Can you have so much life that your toughness is reasonably high, but your mitigation is so low that you'll just die in an instant? Possibly as well. But we're talking about edge cases here, no one would end up with 300k life and go on Torment 6 and then figure out "something's wrong". If you're playing on high Torment difficulties, the game is about more than just looking at three stats.
TL;DR: Toughness is fine, it's a good measure of your defense, and if you feel that it's not that trust your gut and ignore it because it possibly means that your understanding goes deeper than that of average Joe.
Btw, at level 70 you need A LOT of toughness to play on high Torment levels, and you can't get there by simply stacking life and ignoring mitigation, so this issue might resolve itself in 2 weeks.
EHP versus monster DPS leads to time to live. While this is a "tanking" concept from MMORPGs, it still applies. If Azmodan deals 50,000 DPS and you just stand there and eat everything and you have 1 million EHP, that means you have 20 seconds (with zero healing) before he kills you.
It also should be noted that your time to live does NOT change at all whether your EHP comes from armor and all res or vit and life% or some combination thereof. If you have 1 million HP and zero mitigation, every hit is full damage, so you take the full 50,000 damage every time, but you still have 20 seconds to live. If you have 100,000 HP and 90% mitigation you get hit for 5,000 each time and STILL have 20 seconds to live.
But no one actually has that setup. Because of primary stats and base armor on items, it really wouldn't be possible to build a character that has much less than 30% total mitigation. It's also improbable to go for 95%+ mitigation because that would routinely require you to sacrifice huge chunks of EHP just for more mitigation.
Even for me, I have about 55% from armor and 75% from resistances which is roughly 83% total mitigation paired with about 90k HPs and in MOST scenarios my healing (healing stat is roughly 5,000) outpaces the incoming damage. This means that adding more mitigation without dropping some healing is pointless.
There's no point in mitigating more damage than your incoming healing heals you for. That's just wasting stats. So, in cases like this, you *are* better adding HPs.
As for your other statement... to boil potions down to "emergency" is silly. They can be used quite tactically. And to dismiss globes as "dangerous to pick up" is silly. Get a little pickup radius and they're not really that dangerous. Besides, it's not like life/hit doesn't suffer from similar dangers... if you have to reposition a monster, for example, it can continue to attack you, but you're not attacking it so you're not getting healing. That doesn't mean life/sec sucks, though. So if you're going to talk about the downsides of one, it'd be good to talk about the downsides of the other.
All that being said, there are still skills and passives that are %age based. For the WD, I immediately think of Spirit Walk - Healing Journey and Blood Ritual. So even if globes and potions are terrible (they're not), there are STILL skills and passives which are based on total HPs.
http://imgur.com/Q55bwEW
This picture was taken when I was using One With Everything, and I was stacking poison resist on many other pieces so on your character sheet both rings would have added 42 resistance to all types of damage, but the tool tip said that the 42 All resistance would have been a much better gain in EHP.
Its not a huge curve ball, but it is an example of things not being so cut and dry. The Juggernaut passive springs to mind. I cant really list them off in my head but It's those tiny zany bizarre little quirks in the numbers game that I find the most appealing about the game; That they have to be read into with an abstract mind despite their straightforward computation.
Those rings that cause you to heal a percentage of arcane damage??
GREAT item! What's the math on it? I dont know.
But what I do know is that 40 minutes from now I'm going to be standing in a field with 13 of them up my ass replenishing my life How's that for toughness