The OP's question is a valid and will not be considered trolling until there's proof of that. To him, the removal or change of certain specific features from Diablo 2 have changed the core of the franchise.
So until then, stick to discussing the topic and the ideas presented in the original post. And not the person presenting them.
On the actual topic, to me at least I'd say that most of the things you presented as downgrades/problems are instead seen by most players as huge improvements over the D2 system. To me, the core game experience is not only intact, but as fun as it has ever been.
You're free to state your opinion and prefer the old hostile system instead of brawling, but the attitude will never take you anywhere or convince anyone. The entitled attitude of "I know what's best for the franchise and you (or the devs) don't" that so many people show towards games they love. In a franchise this big, things are not as black and white as some people think.
SO what you both above are saying is we are going to go "backwards"? You say diablo 1 has no skill trees that's correct there was books to learn skills and yes you could learn them all. Then we progressed to the skill tress because having everything is pointless and adds nothing but boredom to the game. Then we should progress further not go backwards back to having everything was my point.
I think you're putting words in other people's mouths (hence the accusations of trolling).
Please explain in more detail why you feel that not having skill trees is "going backwards". I think you'll find that many people don't agree with you that it's going backwards. Diablo 3's skill system is an evolution to the skill tree concept and, while not perfect, I much prefer it to Diablo 2.
It is definitely not my intent to put words in anyone's mouth. I just see it going backwards, and I will gladly explain why I see it that way. So as it was pointed out on a misconception of my original post that Diablo 1 had skill books. You could get every skill by learning all them, and we advance in diablo 2 by getting a skill system that we had to make a choice on our character and what we wanted them to be. Which allowed for more character customization. I feel that with the current skill system it is just like Diablo 1 books but instead you don't have to find the books just level up. So there is no change other than runes for those skills.
If it were me (which it isn't and its just my OPINION!) I would have made a skill tree system that you could progressively make better. I am going to use arcane orb as an example:
Arcane orb lvl 1: Small orb shots out 4 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 2: Small-Medium orb shots out 6 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 3: Medium orb shots out 8 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 4: Medium-Large orb shots out 10 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 5: Large orb shots out 12 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
And so on, do you see how a skill tree would be cool. They could then incorporate runes like they are currently so you lvl up what skills you like they become the "OP" skills like CM wiz was. Choose the rune you want with that skill and go killing. This would be a better system then as I say backwards to Diablo 1 have everything mentality. This would offer customization, and a sense of having built your OWN character and not being like all the other people playing your class.
In Diablo 2, many of the devs have come out, openly, saying that Rune Words did a lot to ruin the game, and they did not want to make that mistake again. Rune words were BAD. Teleport was BAD. Most of what was in Diablo 2 were things the devs did not want, but it was too late to change it. They did a lot to fix it, but they couldn't manage to do enough.
Most players never traded with randoms. Period. They may have traded with friends or something, but most players found it too much of a pain to trade. Unless they got something really valuable or really wanted a certain item, they wouldn't even bother trading.
Diablo 2's Unique drop rate was complete shit compared to even pre-patch D3. P8 D2 runs vs MP10 D3 runs, you got 3-5x as many legendaries as uniques. I remember naming my games MFing1 and going all the way to 187 without ever seeing anything useful. I remember botting on 3 accounts for days without finding anything of value. I don't go a 4-6 hour session without finding at least a decent legendary.
Diablo 3 has problems, no game is perfect. You're going to have issues with every game you ever play. If you look hard enough you'll have issue with anything that ever happens in your life. I definitely feel Diablo 3 still has issues, that hopefully RoS will go about fixing. Barbarian feels a little underwhelming when compared to Monk, every class feels like it should have 5-7 more abilities, there's still a lot of abilities that go unused due to just being bad, Some of the resource systems just feel clunky(hi2u Witch Doctor), Demon hunter feels a bit weak, still, Farming runs seem a bit monotonous, Act boss kills, even teh first time, aren't very rewarding. I can go on, but I think you get my point.
However, these are all things that are fixed in RoS, or are relatively minor complaints. Demon Hunters' Healing Vapors makes it an AMAZING RoS class, The two new farming additions are a lot less monotonous, especially the completely randomized dungeons, Act bosses are being made more rewarding, etc. Just sit back and try to not be angry at everything. Cheers~
The OP's question is a valid and will not be considered trolling until there's proof of that. To him, the removal or change of certain specific features from Diablo 2 have changed the core of the franchise.
So until then, stick to discussing the topic and the ideas presented in the original post. And not the person presenting them.
On the actual topic, to me at least I'd say that most of the things you presented as downgrades/problems are instead seen by most players as huge improvements over the D2 system. To me, the core game experience is not only intact, but as fun as it has ever been.
You're free to state your opinion and prefer the old hostile system instead of brawling, but the attitude will never take you anywhere or convince anyone. The entitled attitude of "I know what's best for the franchise and you (or the devs) don't" that so many people show towards games they love. In a franchise this big, things are not as black and white as some people think.
Thank you for your post and I agree some things are better. For example the graphics are pretty nice, the combat is lovely, and I like the overall look of the game. Its just core features that I just don't agree with because its just not Diablo in my eyes or a lot of other peoples eyes. I just think it could be a lot better if we progressed instead of declined you know in my eyes
Thanks again for your opinions and I will try not to show the attitude of "I know what's best for the franchise and you (or the devs) don't"
Your example is a perfect reason why it doesn't exist in Diablo 3. Lvl 3 Arcane Orb Wiz LFG! No one would ever build this, period. You still would be like everyone else maxxing out to lvl 5 if arcane orb was the must-have skill. Diablo 2 had filler skills in their trees just so you had to spend 1 point before you could choose another skill to max out. That's not a choice, that was a must. D3 gives you those skills (at your lvl 5) with unique modifiers.
Your idea of identity and being unique is greatly clouded by things of which D2 wasn't.
Yes, it's still a Diablo game. Heck, it is more a Diablo game today than it was with the start of D3.
I really don't think it's super healthy trying to compare it to Diablo 2. I bet for a lot of us Diablo 2 was the first online multiplayer RPG we ever played. Nothing will ever completely compare to that so why waste time trying?
Personally, I see skill trees as a nuisance. They are just extra work to get you to the spot you want you're character to be in. The current skill system with 5 different flavors of runes for each skill is straight-forward enough. I've played enough games with distributing points in them and people act like it provides SOOOOO much customization. It provides a feeling of deeper customization. But in reality, there is nothing more deep about a skill tree than there is about the current skill system. This same general point that I'm trying to make can also be applied to the itemization in D3. You think it's dumbed-down, I say it's to-the-point.
Hostile vs. Brawling
"...When I would run into these said bullies in Diablo 2 I could just join their game hostile them, kill them a few hundred times, then move on with my day...GOOD TIMES.
However in Diablo 3 you can do nothing to the bullies that do this..."
It almost sounds like you where doing some bullying at the same time. I realize that for some the PVP aspect is still a driving force for people, but you have keep some prescriptive on this. All the Diablo games are dungeon crawlers and not PVP games. Yes, they have promised pvp in some form than what is currently in the game (brawling/dueling)and I agree that I don't like it when a company says they are going to do something and not (Political representatives anyone?), but it is their game and we have to play the their rules. There are plenty of PVP oriented games out there, and a ton of free ones so let's not get caught up in this feature that really was never meant to be the main focus of the game.
D2 Items vs. D3 Items
"Diablo 2 items are far superior when rune word came out than what we have currently in Diablo 3. BOA is a complete joke by all aspects and should have never been allowed in the game but lets look at the items in general and not BOA. In Diablo 2 most items had a static drop % from certain mobs. In Diablo 3 every mob drops everything......"
I highly disagree with this statement. Diablo 2 items, regardless of their power and stats and rune words, are still Diablo 2 items and not Diablo 3 items. That's like saying, my items from X Game where way better then my items from Y Game. The two games have different systems and because of that, the way items work are different. Yes in D2 we could farm certain areas for very certain items because it made since to, but now we have the choice to play where we would like to at any given point and are not stuck into doing one area, over and over again. I don't think the AH did anything but bad for the game, and I am glad they are removing it. The item progression for D2 is totally different than D3. If you want to play on the highest level, you do need to get the stuff to play in that area, that is the nature of the progression of D3.
D2 Trading vs. D3 BOA
"...In short Diablo 2 offered means of getting gear without having to play for years..."
This is why they are removing it (the AH), well one of the many reasons. You won't be able to just buy your way to the top anymore and with loot 2.0 it is much more streamline. Like it has been mentioned in previous posts, trading will still be out there but not like it has been before. The Diablo sires games are meant to be more casual than a Hard-Core-MMO-RPG.
D2 Online or offline vs. Diablo 3 Online Only
"Diablo 2 offered a way to play the game if it was down for maintenance or you didn't have internet. Diablo 3 only allows you to play when Blizzard says you can play and that requires internet connection. I would get into major reasons they lost a lot of money on this but people will just argue the facts."
This has been talked about over and over again. While I am on the fence about this I think it dose do a lot of good. We get fixes a lot quicker, the amount of people hacking the game and items is highly prevented doing it this way, not to mention all the other values of having the online only system. I am not ok if for what ever reason the internet decided to not work and I can't play when I want to, but that is so rare that I never even think about it. I have so many other things I do and not just a one game person.
There are a lot of great things from the previous Diablo games, but each of the games where a different game and a different play style. Sometimes progress is doing a modern take on an old idea. D2 was not the end-all-be-all game, nor is D3, in fact is very far from it.
It is still a Diablo game, just the next version of it.
Your example is a perfect reason why it doesn't exist in Diablo 3. Lvl 3 Arcane Orb Wiz LFG! No one would ever build this, period. You still would be like everyone else maxxing out to lvl 5 if arcane orb was the must-have skill. Diablo 2 had filler skills in their trees just so you had to spend 1 point before you could choose another skill to max out. That's not a choice, that was a must. D3 gives you those skills (at your lvl 5) with unique modifiers.
Your idea of identity and being unique is greatly clouded by things of which D2 wasn't.
It was an example and I would imagine that the highly paid professionals could come up with something more indepth than what I just came up with on the spot. I also did not say to get arcane orb you must get x skill like diablo 2 was. Really all skills should be available for that class at lvl 1. Not using all the slots though till you reach x level would need to stay. But what if I want to be a meteor wizard and can start using it from the start of the game but have a lesser dmg value of that said skill so to use my above example:
Requires lvl 1 -Arcane orb lvl 1: Small orb shots out 4 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 15 - Arcane orb lvl 2: Small-Medium orb shots out 6 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 30 - Arcane orb lvl 3: Medium orb shots out 8 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 45 - Arcane orb lvl 4: Medium-Large orb shots out 10 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 60 - Arcane orb lvl 5: Large orb shots out 12 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
And so on but again im sure that the devs could come up with something better than at max lvl you have all skills and can change to w/e skills you want. There is no customization in this since majority will find the "best" build and use it, and if you arnt then people will fall behind and post on forums how they need to nerf this build cause its too good. Kind of like CM wiz was complained about and WOTB barb was and Rapid fire DH and so on. Wouldn't it be better if ALL skills could be made to be that "its to good" build so then if I wanted to be a melee wiz using all melee skills I can make those melee skills awesome?
No matter what, some build will be better then another. But currently with how they have set d3 up with items adding X% fire damage or X% skill damage, it will add a lot more build diversity, I've already tried MANY more builds then what I did in D2.
And yes, you can already make a very strong SB build for a wiz, you just need items to support it.
@Kodaijin I appreciate your feedback and agree that overall its their game but I just have one question for you. Do you not, as a game developer, want to build a game for the players and not how you want to micro manage how those players play your game?
I just feel that with how everything keeps going eventually there is just going to be a "play" button and you have to play whatever they choose you to play act 1 or rift or adventure you don't get to choose because its to hard for the casual player. This is also why I feel they dumbed down the skill system because it was too hard to grasp. They didn't want people to just copy builds. Yet in Diablo 3 people still copy other people, its inevitable. You cant stop the casuals from not wanting to learn how to play and just copy others. You know how many people have copied my wiz in 2.0 already because I can crit for over 986m? Ill post a screen shot when game comes back online just so people cant say I am lying.
The skill system is every bit as complex as D2's. D2 you just put your points into the obvious skill (ones that did most damage) in D3, you have to think about synergy between skills (without a tool-tip!) There's a lot of trial and error that goes into fine tuning a build, you just don't have to re-roll every time you choose a skill. Rerolling isn't complex, but it is a nice waste of the player's time.
I wouldn't say either system is exactly complex, though. Just different ways of reaching the same conclusion. Being: Which skills will you use to kill monsters?
@Kodaijin I appreciate your feedback and agree that overall its their game but I just have one question for you. Do you not, as a game developer, want to build a game for the players and not how you want to micro manage how those players play your game?
I just feel that with how everything keeps going eventually there is just going to be a "play" button and you have to play whatever they choose you to play act 1 or rift or adventure you don't get to choose because its to hard for the casual player. This is also why I feel they dumbed down the skill system because it was too hard to grasp. They didn't want people to just copy builds. Yet in Diablo 3 people still copy other people, its inevitable. You cant stop the casuals from not wanting to learn how to play and just copy others. You know how many people have copied my wiz in 2.0 already because I can crit for over 986m? Ill post a screen shot when game comes back online just so people cant say I am lying.
No problem, just trying to keep it civil and constructive ;p
Well if I was a developer, I would want structure for the player but not force them to do one thing or another, and I think that is part of the path they (blizzard) is trying to go. I am playing on a few toons on Torment 1 (can do 2 and 3 but I sweat some lol) and I'm a very very casual player where I pick up the game for just a couple hours maybe once or twice a week. So either I've been very lucky with drops or it really is just that much catered to casual players.
I honestly don't think there is at one point going to force us to do anything, although maybe a guided path, sure, but if they wanted it as open world and do what ever we wanted all the time, I suppose they would of just made a sandbox type game. If players who want to learn more about the game they can for sure look up stuff, go onto forums, and talk with other people about what they do, but it's not the only way to play. Good point for this is the redesigned legendaries they just did, like the demon hunter bow that makes elemental arrow a resource generator than a spender. It makes the play style with a different build totally different, but that is just one example and a certain build would work way better if you have that item, but it's just one isolated example.
If people are copying your build for your wizard (and now I want to see my self) then you should be totally flattered, you found something that works great for your gear and skill set, but it's not the only, best, end all, way of playing that class. Not calling you a liar or anything just now got my interest peeked and I'll keep a look out on the wizard sub.
Things like rifts and bounties I'm looking really forward to, as it will add just that much more to max level toons that we desperatelyneeded for a very long time now.
Before I get started - I had multiple level 99s in Diablo 2 LoD. I only played hardcore.
Does this feel like a Diablo game? More than Diablo 2 ever did.
Trading
Diablo 2 at the core was a Trading Simulator. Even then , I -never- traded with random people because scamming, hacking, and duping were such rampant problems for as long as I can remember. The longevity of D3 is extended in a great way due to BoA. I welcome it with open arms.
PVP in Diablo 2 - As a real pvper, a hardcore perma death lose everything pvper. I can honestly say that Diablo 3 brawling is even a step in the right direction. I take it you never seriously pvped in D2 so let me give you an example of what would happen EVERY game. People would unlock their screens with hacks and aim nonstop fireballs at you from an off map teleported location. There was no pvp, there was no challenge. It was "who can kill the hacker first". Even on my softcore pvp only characters, it was the same 2 builds over and over with people who spent too much money on item sites (Sounds a lot like the RMAH huh?). To what you were doing, the in game hostile killing whether for griefing or redemption was boring. It ruined the game for straight up everyone. No one wants to watch your babyrage drama spill out in the middle of a game.
Skill Trees
Ah skill trees, artificial character progression. In early D2 when you couldn't reset them , it punished new and or bad players. That's horrible game design. At high levels of play, I was rerolling characters every 80 levels or so because it didn't feel "right" which again, is horrible game design. After they allowed respecs? It let people 100% min max every stat and the perfect cookie cutter builds were created almost over night. It was an illusion of choice and nothing more. Same with stat points. You look at your perfect future gear that you got from TradingSimulator : Lord of Economics and figure out your stat bonuses. Find the minimum STR, then keep your dex high enough for block and the rest vit(. (Dex was more of a hardcore thing). It was all an illusion of choice and a time sink, nothing more.
Itemization
Even the devs themselves came out and said they ruined the core of the game with rune words and I couldn't agree more. Why would you want such grossly overpowered items back in the game? Especially if you claim to love pvp so much?
End
Don't get me wrong, I don't think D3 is perfect, but I 100% feel they learned from their mistakes with Diablo2. I also spent MANY years playing Diablo2, MANY. I loved that game, but we all quit for reasons. Mine was I ended up finding better games where money didn't win the game for you. (I also quit D3 for EXTENDED time periods for this, came back for this magnificent patch/exp) There is a lot to be done, but overall, everything Diablo2 had has been done better at this point in Diablo3. Pre patch? Hell no. Now though? All my yes.
I wish these threads would just be autolocked and the OP permanently banned so we could stop hearing these "I'm a hardcore D2 player and I think D3 is shit because" threads.
I was just thinking something similar (excluding the perma-banning). I'm pretty sure that D2 still works, so if you don't like D3, then go back to the other game.
In regards to the topic, yes, this game is absolutely Diablo and it is a blast. It is Diablo III, maybe. They've done so many changes that one could make that case that this is Diablo 3.2. I feel that loot is okay because of how often it drops. Before loot 2.0, I was doing good to get 1-2 legs per play period (~4 hours), now I get one about every hour. The % ele affixes on weapons really helps with that whole "talent-tree" feel to a character. Besides, nothing is stopping you from locking your own build and starting a new char for a different kind of build.
@Kodaijin I appreciate your feedback and agree that overall its their game but I just have one question for you. Do you not, as a game developer, want to build a game for the players and not how you want to micro manage how those players play your game?
I just feel that with how everything keeps going eventually there is just going to be a "play" button and you have to play whatever they choose you to play act 1 or rift or adventure you don't get to choose because its to hard for the casual player. This is also why I feel they dumbed down the skill system because it was too hard to grasp. They didn't want people to just copy builds. Yet in Diablo 3 people still copy other people, its inevitable. You cant stop the casuals from not wanting to learn how to play and just copy others. You know how many people have copied my wiz in 2.0 already because I can crit for over 986m? Ill post a screen shot when game comes back online just so people cant say I am lying.
No problem, just trying to keep it civil and constructive ;p
Well if I was a developer, I would want structure for the player but not force them to do one thing or another, and I think that is part of the path they (blizzard) is trying to go. I am playing on a few toons on Torment 1 (can do 2 and 3 but I sweat some lol) and I'm a very very casual player where I pick up the game for just a couple hours maybe once or twice a week. So either I've been very lucky with drops or it really is just that much catered to casual players.
I honestly don't think there is at one point going to force us to do anything, although maybe a guided path, sure, but if they wanted it as open world and do what ever we wanted all the time, I suppose they would of just made a sandbox type game. If players who want to learn more about the game they can for sure look up stuff, go onto forums, and talk with other people about what they do, but it's not the only way to play. Good point for this is the redesigned legendaries they just did, like the demon hunter bow that makes elemental arrow a resource generator than a spender. It makes the play style with a different build totally different, but that is just one example and a certain build would work way better if you have that item, but it's just one isolated example.
If people are copying your build for your wizard (and now I want to see my self) then you should be totally flattered, you found something that works great for your gear and skill set, but it's not the only, best, end all, way of playing that class. Not calling you a liar or anything just now got my interest peeked and I'll keep a look out on the wizard sub.
Things like rifts and bounties I'm looking really forward to, as it will add just that much more to max level toons that we desperatelyneeded for a very long time now.
I do agree they are finally going in right direction for items as far as your example of that bow is awesome! But how many of the legs can you say are build changing? 6 sets 1 for each class and a few legendries? Out of the other 300 or that can drop it just seems like now every DH will go for that bow you just mentioned and every DH will eventually get the bow. Then I can tell you what's going to happen is blizzard will find it is "too good" and nerf it to regen only 1 hatred per sec. Then they will find that's still too good and change it to a proc coefficient for the weapon so it would be "you have a chance to regen 4 hatred". Then this will no longer be a build changer as it is no longer good. See what I am getting at, they just have to keep changing and nerfing until the games totally dead from nothing being fun anymore.
Look at Mira runs nerfed just recently into ground. So cool of them to do this because some people liked it yet there are other "faster" runs that are way better than Mira yet they were not nerfed care to explain this? I can its easy, it was fun and a lot of people were doing it and blizzard said NO its gtg play the campaign from start to finish!
Look at Mira runs nerfed just recently into ground. So cool of them to do this because some people liked it yet there are other "faster" runs that are way better than Mira yet they were not nerfed care to explain this? I can its easy, it was fun and a lot of people were doing it and blizzard said NO its gtg play the campaign from start to finish!
I don't know about the people you play with, or the clan you're in, however the clan I'm in and the people I play with? We did chest / Mira runs because we knew it was broken exp and we were taking advantage of it. We had builds to kill Mira in under 8 seconds on T6. Not a single one of us enjoyed it, we all at one point of the nights said "God...I can't wait for them to fix this so I can stop..."
Before I get going on my response, I'd like to preface it by saying that I have strong opinions about this stuff, and it may sound as if I'm being condescending at some point. That's not my intent, as the OPs opinion is every bit as valid as mine, just that sometimes the blinders get the best of me.
To me, D3 (especially v2) is very much a Diablo game. Many things have changed from D2, but many things changed between D1 and D2. Also, as much as I loved D2, there were quite a few glaring issues that I always hoped would be resolved in some way in D3.
On the skill system. It's true that the devs probably could have come up with a way to keep skill trees and make it work, but they also had a lot of data that we as players only make assumptions about. They probably noticed that there was very little usage of many of the skills, and very few points invested in most (minus very niche specs). They probably also realized that no matter what they did, there would be skills that were mostly unused. It's just too hard to balance them . The problem with skill trees is that they (at least in every RPG I've ever played that used them), never really add as much depth as they appear to. Most skills fall into one of three categories for any particular spec/build:
If you want to use it, you max it
one point wonder (this includes prerequisite skills)
not worth a point
Basically, you either max it, only put a single point in it, or don't use it at all. That means that all of the levels in the middle are useless at the end game, and only useful during the leveling phase of the game. The lone exceptions are the final skill you try to max in your build if you don't have enough points to finish it off, or skills that have diminishing returns and there is a point where you have effectively maxed it.
The reason I bring up other RPGs is that many have tried to break this trend, but I've never played one that successfully did for the majority of the player base. When skills trees are looked at in that light, you can start to see how they are really almost as binary as the D3 trend (you are either using it or you aren't).
That's not to say that I think the current skill system is perfect, but just to say that I see reasons for designing this way, and don't really think it's a step backward, or not in the spirit of Diablo.
Look at Mira runs nerfed just recently into ground. So cool of them to do this because some people liked it yet there are other "faster" runs that are way better than Mira yet they were not nerfed care to explain this? I can its easy, it was fun and a lot of people were doing it and blizzard said NO its gtg play the campaign from start to finish!
I don't know about the people you play with, or the clan you're in, however the clan I'm in and the people I play with? We did chest / Mira runs because we knew it was broken exp and we were taking advantage of it. We had builds to kill Mira in under 8 seconds on T6. Not a single one of us enjoyed it, we all at one point of the nights said "God...I can't wait for them to fix this so I can stop..."
Doesn't matter how fast you did mira runs, box runs were worth more and with the DPS I put out on my wiz with AOE damage (you know the new splash/area damage you can get on items and in paragon tree) of just 10% on a 50mil crit to 1 mob surrounded by a tun of mobs would instantly do 5mil dmg to everything around. I go through T6 on my wiz like its normal mode, I am just saying that Mira was not even the most efficient way to paragon level yet they nerfed it because everyone was doing them.
On your guild saying "God...I can't wait for them to fix this so I can stop..." is just a simple lack of discipline to not have to follow what everyone else is doing. I did Mira runs for about 5 minutes and stopped because it was too boring, plus I found my goblin spot so I do him now. Sounds like your guild needs to put on their big shoes and play the game how they want and not to follow what everyone else is doing. I would ask your guild when they are all on, Lets jump off a bridge together and see how many follow because essentially that's what you are saying they were doing and couldn't stop because they had to follow instead of make their own decisions.
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So until then, stick to discussing the topic and the ideas presented in the original post. And not the person presenting them.
On the actual topic, to me at least I'd say that most of the things you presented as downgrades/problems are instead seen by most players as huge improvements over the D2 system. To me, the core game experience is not only intact, but as fun as it has ever been.
You're free to state your opinion and prefer the old hostile system instead of brawling, but the attitude will never take you anywhere or convince anyone. The entitled attitude of "I know what's best for the franchise and you (or the devs) don't" that so many people show towards games they love. In a franchise this big, things are not as black and white as some people think.
If it were me (which it isn't and its just my OPINION!) I would have made a skill tree system that you could progressively make better. I am going to use arcane orb as an example:
Arcane orb lvl 1: Small orb shots out 4 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 2: Small-Medium orb shots out 6 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 3: Medium orb shots out 8 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 4: Medium-Large orb shots out 10 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Arcane orb lvl 5: Large orb shots out 12 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
And so on, do you see how a skill tree would be cool. They could then incorporate runes like they are currently so you lvl up what skills you like they become the "OP" skills like CM wiz was. Choose the rune you want with that skill and go killing. This would be a better system then as I say backwards to Diablo 1 have everything mentality. This would offer customization, and a sense of having built your OWN character and not being like all the other people playing your class.
Most players never traded with randoms. Period. They may have traded with friends or something, but most players found it too much of a pain to trade. Unless they got something really valuable or really wanted a certain item, they wouldn't even bother trading.
Diablo 2's Unique drop rate was complete shit compared to even pre-patch D3. P8 D2 runs vs MP10 D3 runs, you got 3-5x as many legendaries as uniques. I remember naming my games MFing1 and going all the way to 187 without ever seeing anything useful. I remember botting on 3 accounts for days without finding anything of value. I don't go a 4-6 hour session without finding at least a decent legendary.
Diablo 3 has problems, no game is perfect. You're going to have issues with every game you ever play. If you look hard enough you'll have issue with anything that ever happens in your life. I definitely feel Diablo 3 still has issues, that hopefully RoS will go about fixing. Barbarian feels a little underwhelming when compared to Monk, every class feels like it should have 5-7 more abilities, there's still a lot of abilities that go unused due to just being bad, Some of the resource systems just feel clunky(hi2u Witch Doctor), Demon hunter feels a bit weak, still, Farming runs seem a bit monotonous, Act boss kills, even teh first time, aren't very rewarding. I can go on, but I think you get my point.
However, these are all things that are fixed in RoS, or are relatively minor complaints. Demon Hunters' Healing Vapors makes it an AMAZING RoS class, The two new farming additions are a lot less monotonous, especially the completely randomized dungeons, Act bosses are being made more rewarding, etc. Just sit back and try to not be angry at everything. Cheers~
Thanks again for your opinions and I will try not to show the attitude of "I know what's best for the franchise and you (or the devs) don't"
Your idea of identity and being unique is greatly clouded by things of which D2 wasn't.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
I really don't think it's super healthy trying to compare it to Diablo 2. I bet for a lot of us Diablo 2 was the first online multiplayer RPG we ever played. Nothing will ever completely compare to that so why waste time trying?
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It almost sounds like you where doing some bullying at the same time. I realize that for some the PVP aspect is still a driving force for people, but you have keep some prescriptive on this. All the Diablo games are dungeon crawlers and not PVP games. Yes, they have promised pvp in some form than what is currently in the game (brawling/dueling)and I agree that I don't like it when a company says they are going to do something and not (Political representatives anyone?), but it is their game and we have to play the their rules. There are plenty of PVP oriented games out there, and a ton of free ones so let's not get caught up in this feature that really was never meant to be the main focus of the game.
I highly disagree with this statement. Diablo 2 items, regardless of their power and stats and rune words, are still Diablo 2 items and not Diablo 3 items. That's like saying, my items from X Game where way better then my items from Y Game. The two games have different systems and because of that, the way items work are different. Yes in D2 we could farm certain areas for very certain items because it made since to, but now we have the choice to play where we would like to at any given point and are not stuck into doing one area, over and over again. I don't think the AH did anything but bad for the game, and I am glad they are removing it. The item progression for D2 is totally different than D3. If you want to play on the highest level, you do need to get the stuff to play in that area, that is the nature of the progression of D3.
This is why they are removing it (the AH), well one of the many reasons. You won't be able to just buy your way to the top anymore and with loot 2.0 it is much more streamline. Like it has been mentioned in previous posts, trading will still be out there but not like it has been before. The Diablo sires games are meant to be more casual than a Hard-Core-MMO-RPG.
This has been talked about over and over again. While I am on the fence about this I think it dose do a lot of good. We get fixes a lot quicker, the amount of people hacking the game and items is highly prevented doing it this way, not to mention all the other values of having the online only system. I am not ok if for what ever reason the internet decided to not work and I can't play when I want to, but that is so rare that I never even think about it. I have so many other things I do and not just a one game person.
There are a lot of great things from the previous Diablo games, but each of the games where a different game and a different play style. Sometimes progress is doing a modern take on an old idea. D2 was not the end-all-be-all game, nor is D3, in fact is very far from it.
It is still a Diablo game, just the next version of it.
Requires lvl 1 -Arcane orb lvl 1: Small orb shots out 4 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 15 - Arcane orb lvl 2: Small-Medium orb shots out 6 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet (in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 30 - Arcane orb lvl 3: Medium orb shots out 8 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 45 - Arcane orb lvl 4: Medium-Large orb shots out 10 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
Requires lvl 60 - Arcane orb lvl 5: Large orb shots out 12 projectiles over a distance of 30 feet(in game feet/distance.)
And so on but again im sure that the devs could come up with something better than at max lvl you have all skills and can change to w/e skills you want. There is no customization in this since majority will find the "best" build and use it, and if you arnt then people will fall behind and post on forums how they need to nerf this build cause its too good. Kind of like CM wiz was complained about and WOTB barb was and Rapid fire DH and so on. Wouldn't it be better if ALL skills could be made to be that "its to good" build so then if I wanted to be a melee wiz using all melee skills I can make those melee skills awesome?
But I enjoy playing it and don't care if it is yes or no
And yes, you can already make a very strong SB build for a wiz, you just need items to support it.
I just feel that with how everything keeps going eventually there is just going to be a "play" button and you have to play whatever they choose you to play act 1 or rift or adventure you don't get to choose because its to hard for the casual player. This is also why I feel they dumbed down the skill system because it was too hard to grasp. They didn't want people to just copy builds. Yet in Diablo 3 people still copy other people, its inevitable. You cant stop the casuals from not wanting to learn how to play and just copy others. You know how many people have copied my wiz in 2.0 already because I can crit for over 986m? Ill post a screen shot when game comes back online just so people cant say I am lying.
I wouldn't say either system is exactly complex, though. Just different ways of reaching the same conclusion. Being: Which skills will you use to kill monsters?
Well if I was a developer, I would want structure for the player but not force them to do one thing or another, and I think that is part of the path they (blizzard) is trying to go. I am playing on a few toons on Torment 1 (can do 2 and 3 but I sweat some lol) and I'm a very very casual player where I pick up the game for just a couple hours maybe once or twice a week. So either I've been very lucky with drops or it really is just that much catered to casual players.
I honestly don't think there is at one point going to force us to do anything, although maybe a guided path, sure, but if they wanted it as open world and do what ever we wanted all the time, I suppose they would of just made a sandbox type game. If players who want to learn more about the game they can for sure look up stuff, go onto forums, and talk with other people about what they do, but it's not the only way to play. Good point for this is the redesigned legendaries they just did, like the demon hunter bow that makes elemental arrow a resource generator than a spender. It makes the play style with a different build totally different, but that is just one example and a certain build would work way better if you have that item, but it's just one isolated example.
If people are copying your build for your wizard (and now I want to see my self) then you should be totally flattered, you found something that works great for your gear and skill set, but it's not the only, best, end all, way of playing that class. Not calling you a liar or anything just now got my interest peeked and I'll keep a look out on the wizard sub.
Things like rifts and bounties I'm looking really forward to, as it will add just that much more to max level toons that we desperatelyneeded for a very long time now.
Does this feel like a Diablo game? More than Diablo 2 ever did.
Trading
Diablo 2 at the core was a Trading Simulator. Even then , I -never- traded with random people because scamming, hacking, and duping were such rampant problems for as long as I can remember. The longevity of D3 is extended in a great way due to BoA. I welcome it with open arms.
PVP in Diablo 2 - As a real pvper, a hardcore perma death lose everything pvper. I can honestly say that Diablo 3 brawling is even a step in the right direction. I take it you never seriously pvped in D2 so let me give you an example of what would happen EVERY game. People would unlock their screens with hacks and aim nonstop fireballs at you from an off map teleported location. There was no pvp, there was no challenge. It was "who can kill the hacker first". Even on my softcore pvp only characters, it was the same 2 builds over and over with people who spent too much money on item sites (Sounds a lot like the RMAH huh?). To what you were doing, the in game hostile killing whether for griefing or redemption was boring. It ruined the game for straight up everyone. No one wants to watch your babyrage drama spill out in the middle of a game.
Skill Trees
Ah skill trees, artificial character progression. In early D2 when you couldn't reset them , it punished new and or bad players. That's horrible game design. At high levels of play, I was rerolling characters every 80 levels or so because it didn't feel "right" which again, is horrible game design. After they allowed respecs? It let people 100% min max every stat and the perfect cookie cutter builds were created almost over night. It was an illusion of choice and nothing more. Same with stat points. You look at your perfect future gear that you got from TradingSimulator : Lord of Economics and figure out your stat bonuses. Find the minimum STR, then keep your dex high enough for block and the rest vit(. (Dex was more of a hardcore thing). It was all an illusion of choice and a time sink, nothing more.
Itemization
Even the devs themselves came out and said they ruined the core of the game with rune words and I couldn't agree more. Why would you want such grossly overpowered items back in the game? Especially if you claim to love pvp so much?
End
Don't get me wrong, I don't think D3 is perfect, but I 100% feel they learned from their mistakes with Diablo2. I also spent MANY years playing Diablo2, MANY. I loved that game, but we all quit for reasons. Mine was I ended up finding better games where money didn't win the game for you. (I also quit D3 for EXTENDED time periods for this, came back for this magnificent patch/exp) There is a lot to be done, but overall, everything Diablo2 had has been done better at this point in Diablo3. Pre patch? Hell no. Now though? All my yes.
Cheers
In regards to the topic, yes, this game is absolutely Diablo and it is a blast. It is Diablo III, maybe. They've done so many changes that one could make that case that this is Diablo 3.2. I feel that loot is okay because of how often it drops. Before loot 2.0, I was doing good to get 1-2 legs per play period (~4 hours), now I get one about every hour. The % ele affixes on weapons really helps with that whole "talent-tree" feel to a character. Besides, nothing is stopping you from locking your own build and starting a new char for a different kind of build.
Look at Mira runs nerfed just recently into ground. So cool of them to do this because some people liked it yet there are other "faster" runs that are way better than Mira yet they were not nerfed care to explain this? I can its easy, it was fun and a lot of people were doing it and blizzard said NO its gtg play the campaign from start to finish!
To me, D3 (especially v2) is very much a Diablo game. Many things have changed from D2, but many things changed between D1 and D2. Also, as much as I loved D2, there were quite a few glaring issues that I always hoped would be resolved in some way in D3.
On the skill system. It's true that the devs probably could have come up with a way to keep skill trees and make it work, but they also had a lot of data that we as players only make assumptions about. They probably noticed that there was very little usage of many of the skills, and very few points invested in most (minus very niche specs). They probably also realized that no matter what they did, there would be skills that were mostly unused. It's just too hard to balance them . The problem with skill trees is that they (at least in every RPG I've ever played that used them), never really add as much depth as they appear to. Most skills fall into one of three categories for any particular spec/build:
The reason I bring up other RPGs is that many have tried to break this trend, but I've never played one that successfully did for the majority of the player base. When skills trees are looked at in that light, you can start to see how they are really almost as binary as the D3 trend (you are either using it or you aren't).
That's not to say that I think the current skill system is perfect, but just to say that I see reasons for designing this way, and don't really think it's a step backward, or not in the spirit of Diablo.
On your guild saying "God...I can't wait for them to fix this so I can stop..." is just a simple lack of discipline to not have to follow what everyone else is doing. I did Mira runs for about 5 minutes and stopped because it was too boring, plus I found my goblin spot so I do him now. Sounds like your guild needs to put on their big shoes and play the game how they want and not to follow what everyone else is doing. I would ask your guild when they are all on, Lets jump off a bridge together and see how many follow because essentially that's what you are saying they were doing and couldn't stop because they had to follow instead of make their own decisions.