^Invis makes a good point. My infinite meteor build requires 2 legacy item: reduction meteor SOJ and meteor reduction source. I was going to reroll these but I can not anymore obviously, and I'm ok with that. I did make the appropriate preparations by buying stuff for potential rerolls but I didnt spend much. The change is for the better.
only the very best vanilla items were worth keeping for a while and that´s how it should be. (c) nubtro
This is very true. Rewarding people who put in effort into vanilla is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. There is no competitive play, so who cares if some people are a little bit stronger at the start? This is not a race. There's always going to be differences between people's gear due to play time, play skill, and RNG alone. Legacy gear is not going to make a dent in that.
I'm curious as to whether Blizzard has actually done an in-depth comparison of the best rerolled legacy items vs. the good RoS ones. Because it really isn't that big a deal when you get down to it. Here's some examples of some of the best items you can reroll, and how things actually stand with them:
Mempo - this has been on people's minds a lot. Assuming you reroll the main stat on a 6cc mempo (which is hard to come by for 99% of people anyway because of its price) you are essentially gaining 9%IAS and 70+ All Resist at the expense of some HP (12% life is likely < the 700+ VIT a RoS helm can have, especially with a log of legacy gear) and a lot of main stat. A rerolled Mempo can reach what, 400? A RoS legendary helm can have 750. 350 main stat is a big chunk, and though it may not be enough to approach the 9%IAS in terms of raw DPS, it's reasonably close (likely within a few %).
HOWEVER, there's then also the issue of legendary affixes and set bonuses. Speaking as a Monk, no rerolled Mempo in this world is going to be better for me than a RoS Gyana na Kashu. The legendary affix on that item is simply far better than the minor paper DPS gain of a Mempo. What about a set item? If you pick a Torment set helm instead and complete just the (2)-set with it, that's another +500 main stat gained. That *will* be better DPS than the Mempo, once again.
Echoing Fury - another big name in the debate. EF has the bonus of having not only CHD, but also up to +0.25 APS, which does crazy things when you are dual-wielding. A good 40% WD Echoing Fury can be rerolled to something along the lines of 2.2k DPS - which is decent, but not good for a RoS-level legendary 1h. Of course, the CHD and +APS do make up for a lot - but is it enough? Consider some of the other weapons you could be using in RoS.
One type that immediately springs to mind are the +elemental skill weapons. Odyn Son (+lightning), Azurewrath (+cold), The Burning Axe of Sankis (+fire)... And of course Doombringer, with its whopping up to +40% (!!) physical skill damage. These bonuses are HUGE in RoS, and stacking them is INTEGRAL to progression at high Torment levels. People need to realize just how big +20% or even +40% is - it can translate into HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of DPS, even if you don't see them on the character sheet. Even the best Echoing Fury in the world cannot compete with that in the end.
There's other weapons beside the elemental ones, though, that offer similarly powerful bonuses. How about the Fist of Az'Turrasq which essentially doubles the EP explosion? For Monks, a no-brainer over an EF. Or Thunderfury? Its lightning proc is nothing short of amazing, and way more useful than some raw sheet damage. Or maybe a SECOND elemental weapon? Won Khim Lau to go with your Odyn Son perhaps? The list goes on and on.
RoS is all about the legendary affixes, and that is a GOOD thing! Powerful as though the old weapons may be, they do not have legendary affixes.
Calamity - well, except for this one. Calamity is without a doubt the one, single problem child in this debate. A rerolled legacy Calamity may in fact be the best DH 1h weapon, even in RoS. Not only does it come with the perfect stats (11% IAS, up to 100% CHD, Hatred Regen) and sick DPS, it also actually does come with a legendary proc! And one that is significant and powerful to boot.
While there may be 2h weapons that are better (e.g. Demon Machine), Calamity no doubt rules the world of 1h crossbows. This is a problem, I cannot deny that. Being good is one thing - being actually the BEST all the way to the end is another. Still, the difference between the old Calamity and say a new version is not THAT huge - but it is significant, and likely higher than with any other such comparison. The DPS is only a minor issue here; I've rerolled a lvl 70 hand crossbow (Danetta's Revenge) to almost 2.8k DPS, too (3.2k with a Ruby). But having up to 100 CHD on top of that? This is huge.
Now of course, you *could* go what I call the TheTias route and cap CHD across the board, which could solve several issues including this one; or you could simply add something to the old Calamities along the lines of having reduced chance to proc its effect against targets higher than lvl 60 (the WoW solution, as that sort of thing seems popular there for the same balance issues). Still, addressing the one problem child seems like a better way of handling this issue than nerfing everything, and offending a lot of legacy players who wanted to carry a piece of history over into the new world.
Trifecta jewelry - something else that comes up a lot. Trifecta is, of course, still possible in RoS. The only part of the three that has actually been nerfed is IAS (max 6 instead of 9), both CC and CHD are actually the same on both rings and amulets. So, you are essentially gaining 3% IAS here. At what cost? Well the main stat for once. This is likely what is going to be rerolled, so you'll end up losing what, 100 or so? Not that big of a hit, really. But what else is there?
For rings, it's largely it. There's two set rings that are popular trifectas (Zunimassa and Natalya), but they do require a second piece to gain a bonus. Natalya's (2) is the only one with significant impact (7% CC), and it's certainly a consideration. But keep in mind that the more pieces of legacy gear you use, the more their downsides compound each other. Many people are trying to compensate for a lack of VIT via the use of Life-% (which scales outside of level), but the more VIT you drop because of legacy gear, the less effective Life-% becomes as well.
Furthermore, it is actually VERY hard to get trifecta rings of adequate quality. A 9/6/30+ ring is very, very hard to come by, particularly one with good other stats, too (like being a set). There will be only a handful of people that can actually get a ring like that - and even then they'll have gained only 3% IAS and lost 100 or so main stat - that is a DPS difference in the low single digit %s.
On top of all that, these legacy rings, too, do NOT come with legendary affixes. Consider how powerful some of the RoS rings are in that respect. Ring of Royal Grandeur? It's CRUCIAL to some builds (Thorns set + non set thorns bracers), while being VERY good for others, as it essentially gives you another legendary affix on an item of choice (the one that's not a set now, thanks to the ring).
Stone of Jordan? Likely the BiS ring for *every* class. Incredibly powerful, and on a whole different level than legacy gear. Interesting fact: legacy SoJ are also very powerful, but their power does not in fact require enchanting at all. The nerf will not affect them at all and whatsoever
What about new set rings? The set bonuses of the new sets have been greatly improved, so you would want to use your new Natalya or Zunimassa rings over the old ones easily, simply to gain the new bonuses. Rings are good pieces to use set items in, because it frees up other slots for non-set legendaries with powerful affixes.
Of course, there's then also the issue with amulets. Amulets are in a different spot than rings, for one simple but overwhelming reason: they can roll +ele skill bonuses natively. That means that in all likelihood a legacy trifecta amulet (Blackthorne's is popular there) will not in fact reroll its main stat to a higher value, but actually reroll something into +ele skill. That means you take a HUGE hit in main stat power, easily 400 or more. As with Mempo, trading 400 main stat for 9%IAS may be a net gain, but it's a minor one. Not to mention that similarly to rings, getting a legacy trifecta with high values is actually VERY difficult; much harder than finding a RoS amulet with decent stats (I've found several 10CC/90+CHD/mainstat rare amulets in RoS that could reroll a 4th primary as needed to ele or IAS).
Far more relevant though is the fact that amulets in RoS come with some of the best legendary affixes: namely the elemental immunities. Ever thought about just how powerful being immune to fire damage is? Or arcane? Or poison? It is a BIG deal! And even outside of that, there's very strong amulets such as the Ess of Johan, or Moonlight Ward. Their effects are actual game-changers, and much more powerful than the extra few DPS provided by a legacy piece.
These examples are some of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful legacy rerolls. And as I've demonstrated, they are not in fact as overpowered as people think, nor as irreplaceable. Sure they will shine in early RoS, before anyone has found anything. But why is that a problem? Is it not in fact a fitting reward for legacy players, people that have stuck with the game even through its rough times, all the way until the end? Should they not deserve a bit of power (and as I've shown, it really is ultimately just a bit), in a game where there is no direct competition that could translate that edge into a detriment for other players? Do the memories of an age past not deserve one last glorious flare?
I think the outrage (inappropriate though its form often was) that followed this announcement has shown how deeply people care about the gear they've worked so hard to achieve. Let the memories last a little bit longer. Let the old guard go out with a bang, instead of just scuttling them unceremoniously. There is a new age coming, but that doesn't mean that the past should be forgotten at the push of a button. I urge you to reconsider your decision, because I firmly believe that it would be a positive experience for many veteran players, and that it would barely, if at all, affect the newcomers.
I have never seen your stream, or heard of OP. The entire first page contains posts from account made today praising you. Hate to make assumptions, but... forget it
I personally don't feel angry over this decision. The only point I would bring up, however, is that it does seem a little bit of an easy way out. I was looking forward to enchanting some rares in my stash now in RoS. No, I did not buy any items for the purpose of this, but for many months I thought "this item might be cool to try to enchant with in RoS". A nice rare ring that isn't a trifecta, but I was looking forward to try and enchant it to make it into a trifecta.
I also would think it would be cool to have some legacy legendaries that might be viable. No, I am not saying to make it super powerful or anything like that. But I thought it would be cool - down to the road - to be able to show off some cool legacy items. You know, so you can almost have some sort of bragging rights to show that you have been playing Diablo 3 for a long time, and didn't just buy because of RoS. Now, I suppose we can still do that right? Show off the cool, old, item. But not being able to enchant kinda limits the players choice.
I'd much rather have their be a restriction on legacy items. Maybe they don't roll to ilvl 70, but to a lower level - ilvl 65?
But I do agree legacy items should not be OP in RoS. They should just be cool, fun, and somewhat of a collectors item
what about the Ivory tower? theres probably a billion of those and they are all worse than dog shit. same could be said about many MANY legendaries that they apparently took the time to create, but forgot to make even half way appealing....that's rather unfortunate to say the least...
Well, with the pre-expansion patch around the corner, I feel this was an inevitable move from the developers. This is the final proverbial nail in the coffin of the AH era of diablo 3. With gold being BoA and gimping the possibilities of gear that could have been bought in the Auction House it gives players no choice in following their mantra "Kill monsters to get the best loot"
I don't care about the decision, doesn't affect me in the slightest because I did not spend much on gear in the AH, and I'm still looking forward to RoS.
Too many assumptions from you MannerCookie. Putting everyone in the same basket as "ignorant" (who lack game knowledge) and "casual" (because they don't play 1k+ hours) players isn't going to get your point accross, nor is it going to make them agree with you. Maybe you actually have a valid point, but the way you put it is not going to convince anyone.
Second, the whole "Blizzard doesn't know" or "devs are decidingbased on a vocal minority". Well, I think we've seen tons of complains go unanswered before, and sometimes taking months (year+?) for them to acknowledge something as problem (AH), so saying they based this change off some 50 posts on their forums is a bit short sighted too, imho.
In the end, I'm neither of those things you described, and I still support the change. Yes, I have thought about it, and I still think it's good for the health and future of the game/franchise as a whole. It's gonna take some seriously strong rationalisation and arguments to make me rethink my positioning - so why don't we try that?
Also, for the record everyone, since this is a fresh/new debate, and people are obviously very interested in talking about, I've been holding myself back from interfering too much in the thread (I don't wanna kill people's will to discuss). BUT if you guys keep calling each other TROLLS, saying someone is BUTTHURT, making snide/sarcastic comments ONLY with no actual arguments, I will BE FORCED into warning and banning people =/ I REALLY didn't wanna do that in this thread. So PLEASE, try to get your points across and argue without attacking each other. Last chance...
Listen.
It's hard to have a civil discussion with people who naturally assume that if you have good gear and progressed through this game that you used the RMAH and bought all your gear with dual wielding credit cards.
Not to mention how much hate streamers get, now that I'm a "streamer", I get it guys, I used to clown on streamers all the time and I still do it. It's fun but sometimes I know it's hard but you have to stop being a troll 24/7.
I really find this amusing about the diablo 3 community.
Now let's think this through for those of you guys that are less fortunate at birth and aren't able to see things properly.
1.) Is it that hard for people to fathom that good players have been getting access to the server's top items for a very long time now without the use of $$$. I know that this is another hard concept to understand but what can I say, some myths are indeed true.
2.) If I did in fact spend 10k+ like some people I do happen to know, I probably can afford it and it means nothing. I can understand why people would get jealous/envy over this, especially on the internet. Too bad in real life you can't get go on IRL forums and QQ about how everyone else has a better life than you.
Look guys, I'm not sure why you guys think I'm "butthurt" or even will be bothered at all by statements like "rip cc warrior".
I assure you guys, your trollish comments are only being laughed at, so please stop the nonsense.
Not sure how many times I have to repeat myself on dfans forums just like battle.net forums.
Anyone that saids that 60 > 70 has no idea what they are talking about and need to play more.
Blizzard assumed that 60 > 70 and made these changes
They made changes based off incorrect information.
These changes based off incorrect information affect a small % of players but they still affect them in a terrible way.
IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
I'm so tired of repeating myself 10 times only to hear the same responses, HAHA BUTTHURT NOOB.
and @INVIS, I told you last night on my stream that your opinion literally has 0 merit.
Your account was "hacked" and your items are already BOA and have no value.
You want to tell me that if the 60 items you currently have are all NON-BOA and trade-able, you would not be upset by this change and support it?
That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard basically acknowledges that legacy items are, or let me rephrase, have the POTENTIAL to be more powerful than the SUPPOSEDLY NEW AND IMPROVED Loot 2.0 items. What does that tell you?
If modified level 60 items are more powerful than level 70, it tells me they need to either improve level 70 or prevent modification of level 60 (which they did). Why are some people so upset that Blizzard is balancing the gear? Like others, I horded a few items that I hoped I could enchant later. I am mildly bummed that I can't do it now, but I knew that was likely the case when I took the risk.
I am generally on your side and have been defending your right to express your opinion many times. I also fully understand being a streams creates extra hate so for those people who disagree with Manner, state your argument and make your point valid.
But I do want to correct you on one thing Manner, although my account got hacked, all my items were restored, and I don't know why is it relevant here. It's not like I cannot enchant them because they are BOA already, i enchanted them and certain build i use, the lv60 one is just better. So Yes, I am saying with my over 4k+ hours play on live server, with all my gears BIS, and even with me already spending some time storing some lv60 items for enchant, i don't mind all that to go away. I still think this direction is more or less right. Because after all, people like you and me who already spend so much time in this game, our advantage will be our knowledge in this game and in no time, we will be rocking with lv70 gears. After spending over 200 hours+ on RoS, most builds can be complete and be powerful with lv70 items, but there are these 10% that can only be complete or will be more powerful with lv60 gears. And I think fixing that small % to avoid the necessary to store these items is the right direction, but removing the whole system is just an extreme actions that requiresminimum resource spend on BZ side. Who knows, maybe they are running out of time.
INVIS
I'm sorry but you tried to defend yourself regarding this last night on stream with 400+ viewers live and you failed terribly.
You haven't convinced me one bit that you were in fact "hacked", and if you were hacked out of your own stupidity of clicking a .exe file that was sent to you, well you really don't deserve to get your items back and you should get a HARD reset on your account.
I really think Blizzard's decision regarding your account is a complete joke and creates a precedent for other players to take advantage of the system by abusing the method in which you were "hacked".
Despite yourself not having enough "time" to stream and be in the public's eye, I know you've been putting a lot of hours by now and you have some idea of how this game works. I mean what you gained like 60 levels in the current beta? I know you got about a week worth of shrine exploiting to get some actual gear to play with as well, but obviously you haven't gotten enough or the monks 70 items need seriously re-balancing if you came to the conclusion of ANY 60 item > 70 items.
INVIS, fwiw, I give you the benefit of the doubt that you were in fact that stupid to actually accept a random .exe file from someone over skype or whatever and decided it was a good idea to install it and somehow that your anti-virus (I assume you run one?), didn't even happen to detect a simple trojan. Even if this is the case, Blizzard has basically opened the floodgates on anyone to emulate what you went through and claim that they were in fact "hacked" as well.
I've had lots of discussions with top players on the US players, some who were monks, when you got "hacked" a few months ago about this exact scenario of people taking the events of your account into consideration and trying to create the same scenario to in effect "dupe" their items and get rolled back. I mean some people straight up and came to me and asked, hey manner can I just say I was hacked and dump my items? Which I advised anyone that asked me, not to do so since the exact details of how exactly your account was rolled back is a mystery.
What happened to the "No Roll-back policy", is everything that Blizzard states pretty much a joke?
Stop trying to defend your position and please just admit the fact that you aren't affected by this decision at all and stop giving your opinion which again I remind you has 0 merit.
Alright, I'll try to focus on your actual argument and not on your "you kids are less fortunate at birth" bullshit. To be fair, people only react like that to you because of how you present your arguments and points, usually in a very aggressive and trollish way. How many forum bans do you need before realizing that?
What is the "wrong info" that the devs are using? If you have that kind of inside knowledge on what they know, what they're discussing and on what grounds they're basing their decisions, feel free to enlighten us with such insider knowledge. I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.Now if you don't know for sure, and are just randomlyassuming, it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.
And yes, some particular lvl 60 items (Rings/Amulets) when enchanted were considerably outclassing a huge % of lvl 70 items (not 100% of them, but quite clearly 90%+), because Quadfecta + huge Enchanted Mainstats is way out of line with the new proposed affix system, and more importantly, absurdly easy to get a couple hours into the xpac.
Also, EVEN if we took your argument as correct, how exactly is this small % of players being massively hurt? If they are so good and dedicated to the game, they will still be able to rush their way to the RoS end-game, and then farm the absolute best Unique/Set items there, and still be miles ahead. Again, I fail to see how exactly that hurts their play experience so much as you claim it does.
Alright, I'll try to focus on your actual argument and not on your "you kids are less fortunate at birth" bullshit. To be fair, people only react like that to you because of how you present your arguments and points, usually in a very aggressive and trollish way. How many forum bans do you need before realizing that?
What is the "wrong info" that the devs are using? If you have that kind of inside knowledge on what they know, what they're discussing and on what grounds they're basing their decisions, feel free to enlighten us with such insider knowledge. I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.Now if you don't know for sure, and are just randomlyassuming, it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.
And yes, some particular lvl 60 items (Rings/Amulets) when enchanted were considerably outclassing a huge % of lvl 70 items (not 100% of them, but quite clearly 90%+), because Quadfecta + huge Enchanted Mainstats is way out of line with the new proposed affix system, and more importantly, absurdly easy to get a couple hours into the xpac.
Zero, it's hard not to respond like that when 99% of responses are just complete utter trolls.
I never troll people first, they troll me and well I personally enjoy trolls because I like trolling them back, especially the bad trolls. I've been posting on a forum where people's objective is to just purely troll (d2jsp) for the past 2 years, so pardon me if my internet forum posting personality has been greatly influenced by trolls to the extent that my posts just outright come off trollish as well, but only when faced with these kind of individuals (trolls).
and Zero as much as I would like to spend hours explaining to you how 60 > 70 items, I think that information is readily available if you actually took the time to look around at REAL legitimate feedback by players who actually play the game.
I've said it time and time again, the amount of misinformation and poor feedback on the forums is going to lead this game into being even more of a fail than it already has become.
The root of all problems is simply that the ROS BETA doesn't have enough time to actually fix things properly and everything we the community are receiving are basically quick fixes because there simply isn't enough time.
When it comes to quick fixes, it's generally not well thought out and based off incorrect information.
This decision was absolutely premature and made with the wrong motivations in mind, I can assure you guys the motivation for this was not "to improve player experience", which is why instead of releasing this IMPORTANT information where it's readily visible to all players, they decided it was a good idea to bump a 2 week old thread in ROS feedback so it can quietly go under the radar.
Am I the only person in this 8 page thread full of 100+ replies that is asking the right questions?
Why was enchanting scrapped in the first place? They hyped the shit out of it and made it one of the key features to people wanting to get into ROS, the ability to transition your progression of items to somewhat of a decent start in ROS.
The funny thing is, everyone is so focused on hating about my collection of items that they don't see the real issues.
Next time, another "player beneficial" change comes into play that you happen to disagree with and it was based off purely speculation and no factual information, well I'm sure you would lose a lot of faith in the game as well.
Do people not remember the initial AIS nerf from 1.03? (OFF-TOPIC)
All of you guys are just looking at pure stats, 70 items at times yes may be underpowered in terms of raw stats but you have to keep an open mind to the legendary procs that are available in the game and are still being balanced.
Not only that but itemization is a completely different system in ROS, 60 items simply just do not transition into the higher difficulties, please show me a beta tester who is using 60 items to farm the higher difficulties.... none.
Even if someone is using 1 or 2 slots, like myself (I used a EF in freeze barb for swaps), the EF isn't necesarily BIS, it's just WAY TOO EARLY to come to that conclusion when the metas of the game haven't been thoroughly played out.
Also for all you dfans veterans, when I came to these forums in the past after getting banned from bnet and made a thread about duping and 99% of you guys trolled me at that time as well.
I guess you support Blizzard on remaining silent then quietly releasing "no roll-back policy" a few months later after silencing everyone that talked about dupes.
Really funny thing is that they don't even enforce the "no roll-back policy", just look at INVIS.
I' m sorry but when has enchanting ever been about getting your insanely BIS gear to be useful for end game farming in ROS. IF that's the message you got from Blizzard when they announced it then I want the crack you are smoking sir because it is quite powerful and I'm going to need some just to wade through the bullshit of my life. The whole intent of the enchanting system was so when you found your lvl 70 gear, and it had everything but that one stat you need you could then enchant it to be better, It was meant as a tool to counter the insanely random RNG. It's doing its job, but its job was not to make sure your 60 gear could faceroll T6... I have less than stellar gear and I'm able to play T1 on PTR. I therefore think it's a good thing to disable enchanting on pre 2.0.1 items so that we'd be able to find upgrades throughout our playthroughs that will enable us to then farm higher tiers. All they are doing is making this game last a bit longer because now instead of buying ROS and enchanting and going into T6 and saying "TROLOLOLOLOL EASY PEASY" you go "oh shit I can't handle T2 maybe I should farm T1 for a bit get some upgrades move up as I go and have fun" Why you are upset about this I still don't comprehend. It's essentially fixing the itemization problem of having these overpowered item rule the economy.
And Please stop calling Diablo fans vets trolls. Learn to not generalize in your statements. Have an opinion what have you but please don't bring everyone in this. You make it seem as though we're all a bunch of cocksucking assholes who live to troll.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
I' m sorry but when has enchanting ever been about getting your insanely BIS gear to be useful for end game farming in ROS. IF that's the message you got from Blizzard when they announced it then I want the crack you are smoking sir because it is quite powerful and I'm going to need some just to wade through the bullshit of my life. The whole intent of the enchanting system was so when you found your lvl 70 gear, and it had everything but that one stat you need you could then enchant it to be better, It was meant as a tool to counter the insanely random RNG. It's doing its job, but its job was not to make sure your 60 gear could faceroll T6... I have less than stellar gear and I'm able to play T1 on PTR. I therefore think it's a good thing to disable enchanting on pre 2.0.1 items so that we'd be able to find upgrades throughout our playthroughs that will enable us to then farm higher tiers. All they are doing is making this game last a bit longer because now instead of buying ROS and enchanting and going into T6 and saying "TROLOLOLOLOL EASY PEASY" you go "oh shit I can't handle T2 maybe I should farm T1 for a bit get some upgrades move up as I go and have fun" Why you are upset about this I still don't comprehend. It's essentially fixing the itemization problem of having these overpowered item rule the economy.
And Please stop calling Diablo fans vets trolls. Learn to not generalize in your statements. Have an opinion what have you but please don't bring everyone in this. You make it seem as though we're all a bunch of cocksucking assholes who live to troll.
Did you even properly read the thread?
I assure you that if you did actually read people's posts, you wouldn't have written what you just wrote.
Wait what? I'm having trouble following the deviation there.
You still haven't explained first, how do you KNOWfor a fact ON WHAT devs are basing their decisions. How could you possibly know? You assumeit's forum posts and "beta feedback", but which particular post(s) or thread(s)? What is the specific WRONG info that you mention so much in your posts.
And if it's just the "general feedback", well if 50k beta testers are saying one thing, you either explain to them why they're wrong or you will flat out lose to the democracy that is modern game development.
What does the attack-speed nerf has anything to do with this discussion? It was done mostly because of players breaking animations and resource generation/spending mechanics. It had nothing to do with "faulty forum feedback".
Quote frommannercookie»
and Zero as much as I would like to spend hours explaining to you how 60 > 70 items, I think that information is readily available if you actually took the time to look around at REAL legitimate feedback by players who actually play the game.
Wtf is that shit?Real legitimate feedback by players who actually play the game? Who's that supposed to be? Me? You?Kripparian? KingKongor?
I've said it time and time again, the amount of misinformation and poor feedback on the forums is going to lead this game into being even more of a fail than it already has become.
When it comes to quick fixes, it's generally not well thought out and based off incorrect information.
This decision was absolutely premature and made with the wrong motivations in mind, I can assure you guys the motivation for this was not "to improve player experience", which is why instead of releasing this IMPORTANT information where it's readily visible to all players, they decided it was a good idea to bump a 2 week old thread in ROS feedback so it can quietly go under the radar.
Again, what misinformation? What wrong motivations? I see a lot of random abstract arguments, and nothing concrete. Nothing to really argue against.
Am I the only person in this 8 page thread full of 100+ replies that is asking the right questions?
Again with the empty questions.Are you?Where's the substance in your posts? Where's the core of your argument?
Why was enchanting scrapped in the first place? They hyped the shit out of it and made it one of the key features to people wanting to get into ROS, the ability to transition your progression of items to somewhat of a decent start in ROS.
Enchanted was scrapped? Since when? In RoS? I can still enchant my items and customize them as I see fit, even Legendaries (maybe even to reroll to a different class). People with MP10 gear can still rush through RoS and get a HUGE headstart in farming the end-game. Why exactly do youNEEDto enchant lvl 60? To get an even stronger headstart?
The funny thing is, everyone is so focused on hating about my collection of items that they don't see the real issues.
Again, what real issues? THIS RIGHT HERE, the repetition, the endless abstract comments are what make people believe you're trolling.
All of you guys are just looking at pure stats, 70 items at times yes may be underpowered in terms of raw stats but you have to keep an open mind to the legendary procs that are available in the game and are still being balanced.
Who said anything about stats? And who said anything about lvl 70 items being underpowered? Everyone wants them to be powerful and meaningful. From what I get so far, you're the one asking for lvl 60 to remain useful once we hit lvl 70.
Not only that but itemization is a completely different system in ROS, 60 items simply just do not transition into the higher difficulties, please show me a beta tester who is using 60 items to farm the higher difficulties.... none.
Wait what? Who the hell wants that? Using lvl 60 items to farm Torment 3+ lvl 70 enemies? Who ever said it was possible? Or desireable?
I've tried over and over again to focus the discussion. To actually try and understand your point of view, but it's increasingly hard to do so. And I'm not sure you even realize that problem.
Not gonna waste much more time in this, there are far more important features in RoS that need our attention and feedback, imho.
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This is very true. Rewarding people who put in effort into vanilla is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. There is no competitive play, so who cares if some people are a little bit stronger at the start? This is not a race. There's always going to be differences between people's gear due to play time, play skill, and RNG alone. Legacy gear is not going to make a dent in that.
I'm curious as to whether Blizzard has actually done an in-depth comparison of the best rerolled legacy items vs. the good RoS ones. Because it really isn't that big a deal when you get down to it. Here's some examples of some of the best items you can reroll, and how things actually stand with them:
Mempo - this has been on people's minds a lot. Assuming you reroll the main stat on a 6cc mempo (which is hard to come by for 99% of people anyway because of its price) you are essentially gaining 9%IAS and 70+ All Resist at the expense of some HP (12% life is likely < the 700+ VIT a RoS helm can have, especially with a log of legacy gear) and a lot of main stat. A rerolled Mempo can reach what, 400? A RoS legendary helm can have 750. 350 main stat is a big chunk, and though it may not be enough to approach the 9%IAS in terms of raw DPS, it's reasonably close (likely within a few %).
HOWEVER, there's then also the issue of legendary affixes and set bonuses. Speaking as a Monk, no rerolled Mempo in this world is going to be better for me than a RoS Gyana na Kashu. The legendary affix on that item is simply far better than the minor paper DPS gain of a Mempo. What about a set item? If you pick a Torment set helm instead and complete just the (2)-set with it, that's another +500 main stat gained. That *will* be better DPS than the Mempo, once again.
Echoing Fury - another big name in the debate. EF has the bonus of having not only CHD, but also up to +0.25 APS, which does crazy things when you are dual-wielding. A good 40% WD Echoing Fury can be rerolled to something along the lines of 2.2k DPS - which is decent, but not good for a RoS-level legendary 1h. Of course, the CHD and +APS do make up for a lot - but is it enough? Consider some of the other weapons you could be using in RoS.
One type that immediately springs to mind are the +elemental skill weapons. Odyn Son (+lightning), Azurewrath (+cold), The Burning Axe of Sankis (+fire)... And of course Doombringer, with its whopping up to +40% (!!) physical skill damage. These bonuses are HUGE in RoS, and stacking them is INTEGRAL to progression at high Torment levels. People need to realize just how big +20% or even +40% is - it can translate into HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of DPS, even if you don't see them on the character sheet. Even the best Echoing Fury in the world cannot compete with that in the end.
There's other weapons beside the elemental ones, though, that offer similarly powerful bonuses. How about the Fist of Az'Turrasq which essentially doubles the EP explosion? For Monks, a no-brainer over an EF. Or Thunderfury? Its lightning proc is nothing short of amazing, and way more useful than some raw sheet damage. Or maybe a SECOND elemental weapon? Won Khim Lau to go with your Odyn Son perhaps? The list goes on and on.
RoS is all about the legendary affixes, and that is a GOOD thing! Powerful as though the old weapons may be, they do not have legendary affixes.
Calamity - well, except for this one. Calamity is without a doubt the one, single problem child in this debate. A rerolled legacy Calamity may in fact be the best DH 1h weapon, even in RoS. Not only does it come with the perfect stats (11% IAS, up to 100% CHD, Hatred Regen) and sick DPS, it also actually does come with a legendary proc! And one that is significant and powerful to boot.
While there may be 2h weapons that are better (e.g. Demon Machine), Calamity no doubt rules the world of 1h crossbows. This is a problem, I cannot deny that. Being good is one thing - being actually the BEST all the way to the end is another. Still, the difference between the old Calamity and say a new version is not THAT huge - but it is significant, and likely higher than with any other such comparison. The DPS is only a minor issue here; I've rerolled a lvl 70 hand crossbow (Danetta's Revenge) to almost 2.8k DPS, too (3.2k with a Ruby). But having up to 100 CHD on top of that? This is huge.
Now of course, you *could* go what I call the TheTias route and cap CHD across the board, which could solve several issues including this one; or you could simply add something to the old Calamities along the lines of having reduced chance to proc its effect against targets higher than lvl 60 (the WoW solution, as that sort of thing seems popular there for the same balance issues). Still, addressing the one problem child seems like a better way of handling this issue than nerfing everything, and offending a lot of legacy players who wanted to carry a piece of history over into the new world.
Trifecta jewelry - something else that comes up a lot. Trifecta is, of course, still possible in RoS. The only part of the three that has actually been nerfed is IAS (max 6 instead of 9), both CC and CHD are actually the same on both rings and amulets. So, you are essentially gaining 3% IAS here. At what cost? Well the main stat for once. This is likely what is going to be rerolled, so you'll end up losing what, 100 or so? Not that big of a hit, really. But what else is there?
For rings, it's largely it. There's two set rings that are popular trifectas (Zunimassa and Natalya), but they do require a second piece to gain a bonus. Natalya's (2) is the only one with significant impact (7% CC), and it's certainly a consideration. But keep in mind that the more pieces of legacy gear you use, the more their downsides compound each other. Many people are trying to compensate for a lack of VIT via the use of Life-% (which scales outside of level), but the more VIT you drop because of legacy gear, the less effective Life-% becomes as well.
Furthermore, it is actually VERY hard to get trifecta rings of adequate quality. A 9/6/30+ ring is very, very hard to come by, particularly one with good other stats, too (like being a set). There will be only a handful of people that can actually get a ring like that - and even then they'll have gained only 3% IAS and lost 100 or so main stat - that is a DPS difference in the low single digit %s.
On top of all that, these legacy rings, too, do NOT come with legendary affixes. Consider how powerful some of the RoS rings are in that respect. Ring of Royal Grandeur? It's CRUCIAL to some builds (Thorns set + non set thorns bracers), while being VERY good for others, as it essentially gives you another legendary affix on an item of choice (the one that's not a set now, thanks to the ring).
Stone of Jordan? Likely the BiS ring for *every* class. Incredibly powerful, and on a whole different level than legacy gear. Interesting fact: legacy SoJ are also very powerful, but their power does not in fact require enchanting at all. The nerf will not affect them at all and whatsoever
What about new set rings? The set bonuses of the new sets have been greatly improved, so you would want to use your new Natalya or Zunimassa rings over the old ones easily, simply to gain the new bonuses. Rings are good pieces to use set items in, because it frees up other slots for non-set legendaries with powerful affixes.
Of course, there's then also the issue with amulets. Amulets are in a different spot than rings, for one simple but overwhelming reason: they can roll +ele skill bonuses natively. That means that in all likelihood a legacy trifecta amulet (Blackthorne's is popular there) will not in fact reroll its main stat to a higher value, but actually reroll something into +ele skill. That means you take a HUGE hit in main stat power, easily 400 or more. As with Mempo, trading 400 main stat for 9%IAS may be a net gain, but it's a minor one. Not to mention that similarly to rings, getting a legacy trifecta with high values is actually VERY difficult; much harder than finding a RoS amulet with decent stats (I've found several 10CC/90+CHD/mainstat rare amulets in RoS that could reroll a 4th primary as needed to ele or IAS).
Far more relevant though is the fact that amulets in RoS come with some of the best legendary affixes: namely the elemental immunities. Ever thought about just how powerful being immune to fire damage is? Or arcane? Or poison? It is a BIG deal! And even outside of that, there's very strong amulets such as the Ess of Johan, or Moonlight Ward. Their effects are actual game-changers, and much more powerful than the extra few DPS provided by a legacy piece.
These examples are some of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful legacy rerolls. And as I've demonstrated, they are not in fact as overpowered as people think, nor as irreplaceable. Sure they will shine in early RoS, before anyone has found anything. But why is that a problem? Is it not in fact a fitting reward for legacy players, people that have stuck with the game even through its rough times, all the way until the end? Should they not deserve a bit of power (and as I've shown, it really is ultimately just a bit), in a game where there is no direct competition that could translate that edge into a detriment for other players? Do the memories of an age past not deserve one last glorious flare?
I think the outrage (inappropriate though its form often was) that followed this announcement has shown how deeply people care about the gear they've worked so hard to achieve. Let the memories last a little bit longer. Let the old guard go out with a bang, instead of just scuttling them unceremoniously. There is a new age coming, but that doesn't mean that the past should be forgotten at the push of a button. I urge you to reconsider your decision, because I firmly believe that it would be a positive experience for many veteran players, and that it would barely, if at all, affect the newcomers.
I personally don't feel angry over this decision. The only point I would bring up, however, is that it does seem a little bit of an easy way out. I was looking forward to enchanting some rares in my stash now in RoS. No, I did not buy any items for the purpose of this, but for many months I thought "this item might be cool to try to enchant with in RoS". A nice rare ring that isn't a trifecta, but I was looking forward to try and enchant it to make it into a trifecta.
I also would think it would be cool to have some legacy legendaries that might be viable. No, I am not saying to make it super powerful or anything like that. But I thought it would be cool - down to the road - to be able to show off some cool legacy items. You know, so you can almost have some sort of bragging rights to show that you have been playing Diablo 3 for a long time, and didn't just buy because of RoS. Now, I suppose we can still do that right? Show off the cool, old, item. But not being able to enchant kinda limits the players choice.
I'd much rather have their be a restriction on legacy items. Maybe they don't roll to ilvl 70, but to a lower level - ilvl 65?
But I do agree legacy items should not be OP in RoS. They should just be cool, fun, and somewhat of a collectors item
I don't care about the decision, doesn't affect me in the slightest because I did not spend much on gear in the AH, and I'm still looking forward to RoS.
It's hard to have a civil discussion with people who naturally assume that if you have good gear and progressed through this game that you used the RMAH and bought all your gear with dual wielding credit cards.
Not to mention how much hate streamers get, now that I'm a "streamer", I get it guys, I used to clown on streamers all the time and I still do it. It's fun but sometimes I know it's hard but you have to stop being a troll 24/7.
I really find this amusing about the diablo 3 community.
Now let's think this through for those of you guys that are less fortunate at birth and aren't able to see things properly.
1.) Is it that hard for people to fathom that good players have been getting access to the server's top items for a very long time now without the use of $$$. I know that this is another hard concept to understand but what can I say, some myths are indeed true.
2.) If I did in fact spend 10k+ like some people I do happen to know, I probably can afford it and it means nothing. I can understand why people would get jealous/envy over this, especially on the internet. Too bad in real life you can't get go on IRL forums and QQ about how everyone else has a better life than you.
Look guys, I'm not sure why you guys think I'm "butthurt" or even will be bothered at all by statements like "rip cc warrior".
I assure you guys, your trollish comments are only being laughed at, so please stop the nonsense.
Not sure how many times I have to repeat myself on dfans forums just like battle.net forums.
Anyone that saids that 60 > 70 has no idea what they are talking about and need to play more.
Blizzard assumed that 60 > 70 and made these changes
They made changes based off incorrect information.
These changes based off incorrect information affect a small % of players but they still affect them in a terrible way.
IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
I'm so tired of repeating myself 10 times only to hear the same responses, HAHA BUTTHURT NOOB.
and @INVIS, I told you last night on my stream that your opinion literally has 0 merit.
Your account was "hacked" and your items are already BOA and have no value.
You want to tell me that if the 60 items you currently have are all NON-BOA and trade-able, you would not be upset by this change and support it?
Please, are you joking?
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
Blizzard doesn't have valid info but mannercookie does?
Seriously, can you even "hear" yourself?
I'm sorry but you tried to defend yourself regarding this last night on stream with 400+ viewers live and you failed terribly.
You haven't convinced me one bit that you were in fact "hacked", and if you were hacked out of your own stupidity of clicking a .exe file that was sent to you, well you really don't deserve to get your items back and you should get a HARD reset on your account.
I really think Blizzard's decision regarding your account is a complete joke and creates a precedent for other players to take advantage of the system by abusing the method in which you were "hacked".
Despite yourself not having enough "time" to stream and be in the public's eye, I know you've been putting a lot of hours by now and you have some idea of how this game works. I mean what you gained like 60 levels in the current beta? I know you got about a week worth of shrine exploiting to get some actual gear to play with as well, but obviously you haven't gotten enough or the monks 70 items need seriously re-balancing if you came to the conclusion of ANY 60 item > 70 items.
INVIS, fwiw, I give you the benefit of the doubt that you were in fact that stupid to actually accept a random .exe file from someone over skype or whatever and decided it was a good idea to install it and somehow that your anti-virus (I assume you run one?), didn't even happen to detect a simple trojan. Even if this is the case, Blizzard has basically opened the floodgates on anyone to emulate what you went through and claim that they were in fact "hacked" as well.
I've had lots of discussions with top players on the US players, some who were monks, when you got "hacked" a few months ago about this exact scenario of people taking the events of your account into consideration and trying to create the same scenario to in effect "dupe" their items and get rolled back. I mean some people straight up and came to me and asked, hey manner can I just say I was hacked and dump my items? Which I advised anyone that asked me, not to do so since the exact details of how exactly your account was rolled back is a mystery.
What happened to the "No Roll-back policy", is everything that Blizzard states pretty much a joke?
Stop trying to defend your position and please just admit the fact that you aren't affected by this decision at all and stop giving your opinion which again I remind you has 0 merit.
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
What is the "wrong info" that the devs are using? If you have that kind of inside knowledge on what they know, what they're discussing and on what grounds they're basing their decisions, feel free to enlighten us with such insider knowledge. I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.Now if you don't know for sure, and are just randomlyassuming, it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.
And yes, some particular lvl 60 items (Rings/Amulets) when enchanted were considerably outclassing a huge % of lvl 70 items (not 100% of them, but quite clearly 90%+), because Quadfecta + huge Enchanted Mainstats is way out of line with the new proposed affix system, and more importantly, absurdly easy to get a couple hours into the xpac.
Also, EVEN if we took your argument as correct, how exactly is this small % of players being massively hurt? If they are so good and dedicated to the game, they will still be able to rush their way to the RoS end-game, and then farm the absolute best Unique/Set items there, and still be miles ahead. Again, I fail to see how exactly that hurts their play experience so much as you claim it does.
I never troll people first, they troll me and well I personally enjoy trolls because I like trolling them back, especially the bad trolls. I've been posting on a forum where people's objective is to just purely troll (d2jsp) for the past 2 years, so pardon me if my internet forum posting personality has been greatly influenced by trolls to the extent that my posts just outright come off trollish as well, but only when faced with these kind of individuals (trolls).
and Zero as much as I would like to spend hours explaining to you how 60 > 70 items, I think that information is readily available if you actually took the time to look around at REAL legitimate feedback by players who actually play the game.
I've said it time and time again, the amount of misinformation and poor feedback on the forums is going to lead this game into being even more of a fail than it already has become.
The root of all problems is simply that the ROS BETA doesn't have enough time to actually fix things properly and everything we the community are receiving are basically quick fixes because there simply isn't enough time.
When it comes to quick fixes, it's generally not well thought out and based off incorrect information.
This decision was absolutely premature and made with the wrong motivations in mind, I can assure you guys the motivation for this was not "to improve player experience", which is why instead of releasing this IMPORTANT information where it's readily visible to all players, they decided it was a good idea to bump a 2 week old thread in ROS feedback so it can quietly go under the radar.
Am I the only person in this 8 page thread full of 100+ replies that is asking the right questions?
Why was enchanting scrapped in the first place? They hyped the shit out of it and made it one of the key features to people wanting to get into ROS, the ability to transition your progression of items to somewhat of a decent start in ROS.
The funny thing is, everyone is so focused on hating about my collection of items that they don't see the real issues.
Next time, another "player beneficial" change comes into play that you happen to disagree with and it was based off purely speculation and no factual information, well I'm sure you would lose a lot of faith in the game as well.
Do people not remember the initial AIS nerf from 1.03? (OFF-TOPIC)
All of you guys are just looking at pure stats, 70 items at times yes may be underpowered in terms of raw stats but you have to keep an open mind to the legendary procs that are available in the game and are still being balanced.
Not only that but itemization is a completely different system in ROS, 60 items simply just do not transition into the higher difficulties, please show me a beta tester who is using 60 items to farm the higher difficulties.... none.
Even if someone is using 1 or 2 slots, like myself (I used a EF in freeze barb for swaps), the EF isn't necesarily BIS, it's just WAY TOO EARLY to come to that conclusion when the metas of the game haven't been thoroughly played out.
Also for all you dfans veterans, when I came to these forums in the past after getting banned from bnet and made a thread about duping and 99% of you guys trolled me at that time as well.
I guess you support Blizzard on remaining silent then quietly releasing "no roll-back policy" a few months later after silencing everyone that talked about dupes.
Really funny thing is that they don't even enforce the "no roll-back policy", just look at INVIS.
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
You would definitely be classified as a troll.
Here's a more in-depth explanation since you seem to be confused.
"troll"
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to anewsgroupormessage boardwith the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
I guess you qualify.
Zero I don't see any reason you shouldn't moderate this thread, there's going to be trolls for days.
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
Just deal with it please...you and multiple people are acting like trolls now.
This post is just full of D3FORUMPOSTER syndrome...
Sorry but DFans is really starting to turn me off...with this kind of stuff going on.
Besides, 100 civil all the time forums are as boring as watching paint dry.
And Please stop calling Diablo fans vets trolls. Learn to not generalize in your statements. Have an opinion what have you but please don't bring everyone in this. You make it seem as though we're all a bunch of cocksucking assholes who live to troll.
I assure you that if you did actually read people's posts, you wouldn't have written what you just wrote.
Thanks
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
You still haven't explained first, how do you KNOWfor a fact ON WHAT devs are basing their decisions. How could you possibly know? You assumeit's forum posts and "beta feedback", but which particular post(s) or thread(s)? What is the specific WRONG info that you mention so much in your posts.
And if it's just the "general feedback", well if 50k beta testers are saying one thing, you either explain to them why they're wrong or you will flat out lose to the democracy that is modern game development.
What does the attack-speed nerf has anything to do with this discussion? It was done mostly because of players breaking animations and resource generation/spending mechanics. It had nothing to do with "faulty forum feedback".
Wtf is that shit?Real legitimate feedback by players who actually play the game? Who's that supposed to be? Me? You?Kripparian? KingKongor?
Again, what misinformation? What wrong motivations? I see a lot of random abstract arguments, and nothing concrete. Nothing to really argue against.
Again with the empty questions.Are you?Where's the substance in your posts? Where's the core of your argument?
Enchanted was scrapped? Since when? In RoS? I can still enchant my items and customize them as I see fit, even Legendaries (maybe even to reroll to a different class). People with MP10 gear can still rush through RoS and get a HUGE headstart in farming the end-game. Why exactly do youNEEDto enchant lvl 60? To get an even stronger headstart?
Again, what real issues? THIS RIGHT HERE, the repetition, the endless abstract comments are what make people believe you're trolling.
Who said anything about stats? And who said anything about lvl 70 items being underpowered? Everyone wants them to be powerful and meaningful. From what I get so far, you're the one asking for lvl 60 to remain useful once we hit lvl 70.
Wait what? Who the hell wants that? Using lvl 60 items to farm Torment 3+ lvl 70 enemies? Who ever said it was possible? Or desireable?
I've tried over and over again to focus the discussion. To actually try and understand your point of view, but it's increasingly hard to do so. And I'm not sure you even realize that problem.
Not gonna waste much more time in this, there are far more important features in RoS that need our attention and feedback, imho.