If you're actually looking at it competitively, I'm more okay with the concept of "that guy was lucky" over "that guy probably bought all his items". At the end of the day, the gap will be narrowed and things will equalize as people spend more time in the game. Given enough time, people with more time invested in the game will definitely be wealthier and better equipped than people who don't spend a lot of time in the game but got lucky a couple of times (not that your luck can't turn around at any point either). It's the idea that I MIGHT get lucky that keeps me hacking through the monsters that day, and the day after that, and the day after that. If I can just say "fuck it" literally at any point and just buy all my stuff, then why play at all? Where is the reward?
The idea that I might never get some specific legendary is so much more appealing to me than knowing that everyone can get anything at whim sooner or later. Once and if the item actually drops, it will be all the more satisfying in the long run. Why is everyone entitled to the entirety of the loot?
Now how long do you think ANYONE will be continue to play that character when they no longer get worthwhile loot. I mean it was all worthwhile up until around the week 4 mark and then it slowed down considerably.
I honestly have no idea. How long do people continue to play after they buy all the items they need? How quickly can you get from top 30% to top 10% in an ebay economy? Seconds? Minutes?
The better question than "how long do you play after the game stops dropping worthwhile loot" is "how long do you play a game in which there is no worthwhile loot to begin with". What exactly is "worth my while" if there is no difference between 1% drop chance and 0.0000001% drop chance, in an economy where millions of people keep producing items on a daily basis to a point where everything can be found in an absolute abundance months if not weeks after a ladder reset?
There's a huge difference. When the drop chance is 1% everyone getting one, when its 0.0000001% barely anyones got one. With the removal of the AH they stepped in the right direction because it's not so readily available. Do you honestly think that every game you enter will just be 3 people standing in town spamming "JALLALS FOR SOJ!JALLALS FOR SOJ!JALLALS FOR SOJ!" No The chances of you meeting those "millions of players" is very slim especially with a four person game. Remember we cant choose what game we join.If they added trading it adds some sort of availability, but its severely limited in that you'll never see whose got one. You may enter 50 games and never find the Soj or Jallals you are looking for, simple as that. Now with BoA you may never be able to get that item (IF THEY'D FIX THE DROP RATE)
No, I was specifically referring to the fact that you can buy items from numerous websites very quickly after a ladder starts. I remember that it takes less than two weeks before you can buy Hellfire Torches in a fresh ladder. With all the bad shit that AH/RMAH meant for the game, I think RMAH was actually kind of good in the fact that players still kind of traded with one another (except that it was really WAY too convenient as you mention) instead of turning to the market of Chinese farmers and botters which is exactly what would happen. I can't really tell which is worse (AH or totally uncontrollable black market).
I've also seen you argue this in posts before that we don't know how the drop rates are going to work and they wont be bad.... Well if you take all the Loot 2.0 details and think and compile them for a moment you'd realize the game is in a literally awful state right now. Think about how awesome every gear you saw was. Think about how badass they want to make legendaries. Then think about how many you find per act 3 run solo at p40? 6... In a 4 person co-op game that's 24 legendaries to split between you guys. Then if that holds true for all 5 acts, you're looking at almost 120 legendaries a game between four people. Since they'll all be so mighty and powerful cause your loot has to be meaningful you know, you will never need to play this game outside of a few months. The end will be there and you will have nothing to do. Literally nothing. There will again be no endgame. No cool content to continue through nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch NOTHING!
Once again, the premise is that /really/ powerful legendaries are going to be extremely rare, says Blizzard. It would be like getting 6 items equivalent to Gladiator's Gauntlets just so that you get to see that orange drop once in a while. You don't get Mempos every game, do you? The difference is that they want to make even low-end legendaries kind of interesting because they can support some kind of obscure builds even if their stats are not so good.
Your first point is moot because sure they exist, and sure people use them but the majority of players do not. Most players don't run to D2jsp and start buying forum gold like candy and then getting items. It's a silly argument to make that everyone would do this practice just because the ah had the same fault, when in reality people would have to go out of their way to use d2jsp and most people wouldn't be comfortable using their money on a 3rd party site that isn't directly supported by Blizzard.
To the second point, as it stands every leg has an equal chance to drop. IF I'm not mistaken Legs currently work like this. Legendary drop rate is some arbitrary numebr and after that it has a 1/(However-many-gear-types-there-are) to be a certain gear type after which it has a 1/(how ever many legendaries for that gear type) to be the specific item. I'm almost positive there are no effective drop rates on a per item basis. Which could be another problem. And lastly, this point is also moot because they aren't striving for certain legs to be less useless or certain ones to be "top-tier" they have clearly stated numerous times they want every item to be a build changer, and make them all useful come endgame. This directly stands against what you said that certain ones won't drop as much because their current philosophy is to have every Legendary be equally as powerful as the last only in a different way. I.E Frostburns are great for Frost mages not so much for an CMWW mage, where as a Tasker and Theo might be more useful for the CMWW than the Frost Mage. It's not that anyone is "top-tier" or anyone is meant to be "better" per se but they both serve different purposes and its how well they serve the purpose that defines them as good or not.
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For me, that is the #1 complaint I have. And not that its not usable by me, but by ANYONE. I'm so sick of Legendaries that no class would touch under any circumstances.
I have found at least 103 Legendaries (At least I have that many Brimstones) that were totally useless. Couldn't even AH them. Every piece of gear I have is off the AH! And thats just wrong, wrong, wrong!!! That isn't the spirit of the Diablo series.
The Dev's related finding Legendaries to opening a present on Christmas day. And I for one, am sick of getting coal in my presents!
Again, I sincerely this sort of complaint is targetting the wrong game system.
It's not that the "Legendary" is bad. It's already automatically better than 90% of the rares, and even in it's "worst state" it's quite useable in Inferno low MPs (which is intended and completely related to the Diablo series).
The issue is how it's "useless" compared (keyword detected) to the average gear available on the AH! If you can have good base stats, good crit, good all res in a 50k Gold set item, why even bother with that "meh" pair of Gloves?
Take that all away, start a self found character, and suddenly that mediocre Butcher's Sickle is amazing and greatly boosts the damage granted by that shitty Zuni's Trails you found earlier.
=> Bad Legendaries that even with good rolls can't be useful? I can 100% agree with that. They need to be better (and more frequently) reworked.
=> But all of the Legendaries are like that? Absolutely not! Even things like a Fragment of Destiny would be more useful if the base quality and power of gear wasn't so high (again, AH).
Why is everyone entitled to the entirety of the loot?
Because the basic idea of an RNG-based loot system is that everyone has a shot? By definition we are ALL entitled to feel like any particular item is within reach. Part of "feeling like any particular item is within reach" demands that, in case of bad luck, we have some kind of recourse. That's what Gheed was, that's what Haedrig was supposed to be, that's what crafting in PoE is. Even though these systems are all based in RNG, they give you the "ok you picked up 40 yellows so now you can make one more new one of your choosing" level of control that makes it feel not quite as bad. They provide recourse against being subject to pure RNG. That's exactly what trading does.
18 months into D3 I've still yet to find ANY Mempo. By the time I find one it won't be remotely relevant. So, yes, i think people should have a REASONABLE shot to find quality items before they become irrelevant and if that means I have to trade 12 Lacuni Prowlers (because that's how RNG has treated me) for one Mempo of Twilight, so be it. I fail to see how that undermines the legitemacy of drops or how it alters anyone's overall enjoyment of the game. But don't be so crass or naive to try to lecture me about how it's good for the game that people have gone 18, or more, months without finding a Mempo. That's the kind of bad luck that makes people give up, not the kind of thing that adds long-term incentives to the game.
Imagine that your luck is so bad that the hand you're dealt is only Firewalkers. You never find any other set/legendary item. Ever. It's completely unlikely that that would happen, but what would your opinion be? Would you still be spouting off about people feeling entitled, or would you be on the forums raging that other people are getting sweet items and you're only ever dropping Firewalkers? My bet is that you'd feel slighted by RNG, but here you are calling people "entitled" for wanting ways to minimize the bad effects that RNG can have.
While I'll wait for RoS before I rage. As a self-found player I find this decision to be rather curious even though it 100% supports my play style.
I am not a fan of any design decision such as this one that forces people to play a certain way. Also I have this gut feeling like this decision is to compensate for a much larger, lazy design decision.
For example, if this decision is to compensate for the fact that legendary items drop like candy in RoS I will be disappointed because the solution was to go from one extreme to the other rather than finding a reasonable, level-headed solution to the problem.
That's the problem right there... expecting something to go the exact way you want it to go. We're not children anymore, we can't have everything handed to us on a silver platter. We have to make do with what we can get our hands on and adapt. Indeed it might get really difficult in the first few months to play the exact build you want to, but that's a good thing.[ Trading would allow us to do that, but that would also spoil us and instead of feeling awesome for finally playing the build i always wanted, we'd feel no sense of accomplishment.
The idea that I might never get some specific legendary is so much more appealing to me than knowing that everyone can get anything at whim sooner or later. Once and if the item actually drops, it will be all the more satisfying in the long run. Why is everyone entitled to the entirety of the loot?
So it's an issue of entitlement?
We are not talking about players expecting to find the best items in the game.
Even legendaries/sets will have randomization that separates them so that you will possibly never find
one in the top percentile range.
To suggest that we should limit it further so there's a chance players could never find a specific build changing legendary/set is ridiculous.
Trading would allow us to do that, but that would also spoil us and instead of feeling awesome for finally playing the build i always wanted, we'd feel no sense of accomplishment.
No, you would feel no sense of accomplishment.
Other players may feel differently on how they obtain their gear.
Your first point is moot because sure they exist, and sure people use them but the majority of players do not.
I really don't care who uses them and who doesn't. That's absolutely beside the point. Even if 0 people want to trade for money, my time spent in the game is devalued by the fact that the results for my hard work can be obtained without any of that hard work. But that's just me - it might be different for you and I respect that. I really don't see though, how my point is moot because "the majority of players this or that". I really don't care. The fact is that top geared players might have purchased their gear or worked for it. We will never know, will we? If I ever get to be a top geared player I don't really have much to show for it if I am just one of many people who may or may not have bought their gear.
To the second point, as it stands every leg has an equal chance to drop..
No, bro. Watch the vid for loot 2.0 announcement. Immediately after talking about how legendaries will be witnessed in the game a whole lot more often, there is an explanation that there are still going to be those really powerful legendaries that are very hard to find. And it's not true that every legendary has the equal chance of dropping, that is 100% incorrect.
18 months into D3 I've still yet to find ANY Mempo. By the time I find one it won't be remotely relevant.
And what is it that will be making it irrelevant? The fact that it will be a dirt cheap item you can get so easily from the AH, a friend, etc? Exactly. What makes items irrelevant is the urge people have to put price tags on items. What makes items irrelevant is that they are so readily available from ALL the sources OTHER than dropping during ACTUAL GAMEPLAY.
Because the basic idea of an RNG-based loot system is that everyone has a shot? By definition we are ALL entitled to feel like any particular item is within reach. Part of "feeling like any particular item is within reach" demands that, in case of bad luck, we have some kind of recourse. That's what Gheed was, that's what Haedrig was supposed to be, that's what crafting in PoE is. Even though these systems are all based in RNG, they give you the "ok you picked up 40 yellows so now you can make one more new one of your choosing" level of control that makes it feel not quite as bad. They provide recourse against being subject to pure RNG. That's exactly what trading does.
18 months into D3 I've still yet to find ANY Mempo. By the time I find one it won't be remotely relevant. So, yes, i think people should have a REASONABLE shot to find quality items before they become irrelevant and if that means I have to trade 12 Lacuni Prowlers (because that's how RNG has treated me) for one Mempo of Twilight, so be it.
I was talking yesterday to overneathe about a Ladder system that implements a system to counter that.
The reward being "some" control over that. As in if you complete certain milestones (elite kills? boss kills? bounties? neph rifts? "x" dmg dealt to other players?) one of the prizes could be "choosing" the Legendary that you want.
As far as rewards go, I don't think a lot of people care a lot about "vanity" items in a Diablo game (as was suggested in the past). And I don't think "exclusive Ladder items" is something that would work nowadays either. Instead, it would be a very unique prize in the sense that you get to circumvent some RNG if you wanna try a specific Legendary/Set.
It's a work-in-progress idea, though. Hopefully I'll find some time in this weekend's holiday to "publish" it with neat little photoshopped screenshots.
Your first point is moot because sure they exist, and sure people use them but the majority of players do not.
I really don't care who uses them and who doesn't. That's absolutely beside the point. Even if 0 people want to trade for money, my time spent in the game is devalued by the fact that the results for my hard work can be obtained without any of that hard work. But that's just me - it might be different for you and I respect that. I really don't see though, how my point is moot because "the majority of players this or that". I really don't care. The fact is that top geared players might have purchased their gear or worked for it. We will never know, will we? If I ever get to be a top geared player I don't really have much to show for it if I am just one of many people who may or may not have bought their gear.
To the second point, as it stands every leg has an equal chance to drop..
No, bro. Watch the vid for loot 2.0 announcement. Immediately after talking about how legendaries will be witnessed in the game a whole lot more often, there is an explanation that there are still going to be those really powerful legendaries that are very hard to find. And it's not true that every legendary has the equal chance of dropping, that is 100% incorrect.
To point one, It really upsets you and devalues your game when someone just bought the item? REALLY? That's pretty sad that you completely devalue your time when someone bought something without working for it. The option will always be there whether you like it or not so I guess you could say good-bye to Diablo 3 because your entire Diablo 3 play time and usage was devaulued because I traded something on the AH! Sorry for ruining your experience bro.
To point two Listen again, he doesn't say that there are going to be one harder to find he says (after saying that 6 Legs drop on average) that there are still going to be those items that you want to find and work for, we aren't making legendaries go out of style they'll still have worth and we aren't handing you them. So What he really meant was here's 6 perfectly good legendaries that you can use, and its 6 so out of the 100's of legendaries there are you have 6 and now you have to work as in keep playing to get the ones you wanted because you might not always get the ones you want first try or 4th try or millionth try for that matter.
If I come off like a dick I'm truly not trying to be. I just feel like if it bothers you that much your probably shouldn't play, and IF you really didn't care then it wouldn't devalue your experience at all. Just sayin'
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Even if 0 people want to trade for money, my time spent in the game is devalued by the fact that the results for my hard work can be obtained without any of that hard work.
That means I can choose to play for hundreds of hours and achieve some sort of results, and then hundreds of hours later, a website will remind me that my effort was in retrospect worth about 10 bucks and I am going to scratch my head really hard. How can you not understand how this devalues the time you spend in the game? It has nothing to do with whether other people buy or don't buy items.
To point two Listen again, he doesn't say that there are going to be one harder to find he says (after saying that 6 Legs drop on average) that there are still going to be those items that you want to find and work for, we aren't making legendaries go out of style they'll still have worth and we aren't handing you them. So What he really meant was here's 6 perfectly good legendaries that you can use, and its 6 so out of the 100's of legendaries there are you have 6 and now you have to work as in keep playing to get the ones you wanted because you might not always get the ones you want first try or 4th try or millionth try for that matter.
Well, right now I literally have 6-7 pairs of Gladiator's Gauntlets not counting the ones i salvaged and I'm pretty sure I would see a whole bunch of more Gladiator's Gauntlets and similar low end legendaries before ever finding a Mempo (which I still haven't). Unless you have some proof that this will suddenly change in RoS and that all legendaries are going to become equal in rarity (totally unreasonable to even consider) then I really don't see what you are trying to prove now. I also entirely disagree with your interpretation of "what he really meant" in that video. He actually said "we won't be handing them like they're going out of style" exactly so that people wouldn't jump to conclusions after hearing such a high number of legendaries found per run, but I guess people will always find a way to misinterpret very plain statements and get their own meaning of things.
The fact that all legendaries are going to be somewhat good doesn't mean "every legendary is equal in power". It's the unique effects they have that make them interesting or useful in certain scenarios. On Blizzcon they also said during a panel that the rarer an item is, the more powerful it should be, period (although you can easily misinterpret this too if you wish).
To point two Listen again, he doesn't say that there are going to be one harder to find he says (after saying that 6 Legs drop on average) that there are still going to be those items that you want to find and work for, we aren't making legendaries go out of style they'll still have worth and we aren't handing you them. So What he really meant was here's 6 perfectly good legendaries that you can use, and its 6 so out of the 100's of legendaries there are you have 6 and now you have to work as in keep playing to get the ones you wanted because you might not always get the ones you want first try or 4th try or millionth try for that matter.
Well, right now I literally have 6-7 pairs of Gladiator's Gauntlets not counting the ones i salvaged and I'm pretty sure I would see a whole bunch of more Gladiator's Gauntlets and similar low end legendaries before ever finding a Mempo (which I still haven't). Unless you have some proof that this will suddenly change in RoS and that all legendaries are going to become equal in rarity (totally unreasonable to even consider) then I really don't see what you are trying to prove now. I also entirely disagree with your interpretation of "what he really meant" in that video. He actually said "we won't be handing them like they're going out of style" exactly so that people wouldn't jump to conclusions after hearing such a high number of legendaries found per run, but I guess people will always find a way to misinterpret very plain statements and get their own meaning of things.
The fact that all legendaries are going to be somewhat good doesn't mean "every legendary is equal in power". It's the unique effects they have that make them interesting or useful in certain scenarios. On Blizzcon they also said during a panel that the rarer an item is, the more powerful it should be, period (although you can easily misinterpret this too if you wish).
Wrong he in no way states that any legendary will be more rare than the last or the fact that the legendaries would have tiers to them. Never does anyone ever say this. Rarity as In Blue yellow and Legendary/sets sure, and the legendary affixes are just build changes. The actual stats that an item can roll is what will ultimately make you look for this item over this one. In my example Frostburn is currently the only glove or item for that matter that increases cold damage by a percent, and it's not measly 10 in the new version is had a sick percentage i think around 40% could be mistaken and it could be closer to 30%. That's what makes that item so appealing. The legendary affix is just another reason to get a legendary.
And yet when he says we find 6 on average that just screams "hey have some legs" I mean finding one a run would be a lot personally. It's supposed to be rewarding when you find it not hey here's 6 of em. I feel like he and you are missing the point entirely. The fact that so many are dropping is bad. It will over inflate the market as quickly as the consoles market did. And now with a smaller stat range it'll be even easier to find better gear. Maybe a bit too easy. I can't say for sure cause I haven't tested but the numbers are starting to look worse and worse when you think about how easy it'll be to find gear.
And it isn't unreasonable to consider that all legs will be equal in power especially since now every item can roll at higher iLVL, which in turn means your gladiator Gauntlets can now roll stats equal to 750-900 main stat at max. That makes them pretty useful for someone who just got to 70 and doesn't really have gear. If they add a legendary affix that helps you out and they add a special affix for them that's also useful that could be your end game glove. You could end up using it over anything else because it'll suit your playstyle better. If you listen to the blizzcon panels they all say that they want to move away from trifecta by adding other valuable stats, some of these stats may only be on a single item and that can make them arguably better. So i don't see why it's unreasonable to have them all be equal. That's how it should be after all. There isn't one right way to play with your items and if there is that's just saying that blizzard has horrible itemization skills and has to completely overhaul their legendaries AGAIN! You shouldn't be able to say, alright THIS IS BiS for WIZ. It should be this is really useful for Frost mages, but this is more useful for CMWW.
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Once again, the premise is that /really/ powerful legendaries are going to be extremely rare, says Blizzard. It would be like getting 6 items equivalent to Gladiator's Gauntlets just so that you get to see that orange drop once in a while. You don't get Mempos every game, do you? The difference is that they want to make even low-end legendaries kind of interesting because they can support some kind of obscure builds even if their stats are not so good.
I don't get how you don't understand that EXTREMELY RARE and NO TRADING don't mix. All that does is create a massive "luck gap" and frustration for people on the wrong side of that chasm.
So instead of AH barons... we have people who got insanely lucky with an "extremely rare" legendary that actually matched their class/spec? How in the world does that sound better? At least the AH stuff was in our control - if you wanted to make a lot of money you could. Relegating power purely to RNG is basically the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Now, Blizzard may have systems that help players "beat" RNG, but they never should have dropped this bomb without giving us information on the other things that keep it in context.
I feel like your train of thought is kind of stuck on the fact that there will only be maybe 1 or 2 items per slot that will be any good for your character. I think the idea is that each class will have 10-15 legendaries per slot that will be viable. The way the game is now if you didn't find a mempo you'd basically be screwed on that slot, but the aim is that hopefully that is not how it will be. After loot 2.0 if you don't find a mempo there are 10 other helms you could find that you would be just as excited about and after playing casually for a week or so at max level you may not find all of them, or the specific one you want, but you will find at least a couple.
The feel of the game would be that everyone's item journey would be different and your experienced would be personally tailored around what you find and what order you find the items. Instead of saying "I need item A on my helm, item B on my chest, item C on my boot otherwise my character will never be good" you will find a healthy amount of different legendaries that are all equally good across all your items slots. By the time you've played for a few months on that character, the hope is you will then find many of the items you desired, but maybe not every specific one, but you will still treasure the ones you did find more because there was a risk that you never would have found them that makes the reward that much sweeter. If you don't get one specific item, it won't be the end all be all that forever shames your character. As you progress and find different legendaries you work with what you find to create a unique character that found items in a way no one else did creating a unique experience that was tailored just for you.
To me this is way better than just reading a thread on a forum where player X used these 13 items, then going to a trade channel to copy his build item for item. Then you've killed the need and experience of actually hunting for those items. Then all you are doing is hunting for higher stat versions of the same items you already traded for, which is pretty bland.
I feel like you're train of thought is kind of stuck on the fact that there will only be maybe 1 or 2 items per slot that will be any good for your character. I think the idea is that each class will have 10-15 legendaries per slot that will be viable.
I understand that, but the fact that we have "build-defining" items means that if you don't find X, Y, or Z, you're not just locked out of not having access to the item, but potentially the build it supports. I *do not* like that thought. If it were as simple as "I didn't find <item1> but I can replace it with <item2> or <item3>" then we're talking a majorly different story, but that's not what "build-defining" means to me. If items are that generic, then they're not going to define builds. They're going to be much closer to what we have now.
At the end of the day, though, it is demoralizing and NOT FUN to go the entire duration of an expansion cycle without having found an item and know you have no way to rectify that. Right now, even though I've not found a Mempo, if it truly means enough to me, I can go to the AH and fix that. I can assess my situation and make a decision based on pros and cons. I have SOME degree of control over my enjoyment of the game. Throwing everything to RNG is a really bad idea. This is why they have systems like smart drops and the mystic... but both of those are still based in RNG, so it doesn't feel like the appropriate escape.
Trading, however, has always provided that safety net. You don't find an item, but your heart is set on it, you can give up some of the other stuff you've amassed and attempt to get that item. This ability to assess a situation, choose from multiple options, it's the essence of life.
"Go grind harder" is just a cop-out answer for a system that's broken.
Good idea for a way to incentivize ladder without going the "exclusive items" route. And I agree that in a world without trading, some control like that is exactly what the game requires. I still fall back on the hyperbolic argument just to make a point:
*** "you" does not refer to Zero henceforth ***
What if the only legendary you found for your entire time in D3 was Firewalkers? Would you still argue that no trading is a good thing? Would you still tell others that they're acting "entitled" because they want to feel they have a shot to get what they want to make their character the way they want? Of course not. Everyone would agree that if you only ever got Firewalkers you have been the victim of some absolutely terrible RNG bad luck. So the question is... where is that invisible line in the sand between "terrible luck, needs fixing" and "suck it up nancy-boy?"
I spent years in D2 and I never got a PERFECT Vamp Gaze. But I did get several perfectly-servicable Vamp Gazes. However, I also never got *any* Windforce, even the shittiest of shitty Windforces. The first scenario made me feel like, even though I had attained good items, I still had something to strive for (the perfect... or near-perfect... Vamp Gaze). The second scenario made me felt beat-down by RNG.
There has to be a better system than saying "well if you feel like you deserve a Windforce then you're entitled." No, I'm not entitled. I'm just a gamer who is interested in a decent shot at character progression in a game dominated by randomized drops. This isn't WoW where I know if I kill Illidan there's a 1% chance he drops a Warglaive. There aren't set-in-stone loot tables like that.
That means I can choose to play for hundreds of hours and achieve some sort of results, and then hundreds of hours later, a website will remind me that my effort was in retrospect worth about 10 bucks and I am going to scratch my head really hard. How can you not understand how this devalues the time you spend in the game? It has nothing to do with whether other people buy or don't buy items.
So long as accounts can be sold this is the case. So, given that Blizzard hasn't made it impossible to buy accounts.... you probably should save yourself the heartache of finding out your "effort" is only "worth 10 bucks" and quit while you're ahead.
@Enty:
Alright. I could be the one misinterpreting what was said so far but I'll just recheck when I'm not tired. You could be right about the legendaries since, after all, they are making the lowbie ones drop at lvl 70 etc and those Frostburns did look pretty end-gameish but who's to say.
With regards to the other issue which you didn't touch on in your last post, I will only add this: you have to understand that a black market would flourish now that AH and RMAH are being removed. As soon as I am put in a position to evaluate whether I should go on and grind the game for another year or just buy everything I need instantly and cheap (to save my time and perhaps do something more productive with my life in the meanwhile like actually make money) I will want to know exactly what is the incentive for me to choose the actual game instead of the short route there. What is it that will not make me feel like a fool for wasting my eyesight and PC peripherals? What is my incentive to accept a full time job that pays in a wheel of cheese by the end of each month instead of just buying the cheese for the $10 I have in my pocket right now? I want a full months salary (metaphor for a proper reward) or indeed, I'm opting out of the game, like you said. I would play the game a little bit but it would all soon start feeling like a waste of time, especially ladders since those are actually designed to be competitive in nature.
I really actually don't care about other peoples' gaming habits in this particular case. But your approach of "don't ask don't tell" makes me think you would probably not be too opposed to duping, hacking, item editing if they existed in the game, and wouldn't view any of that as a problem as long as it doesn't affect you directly (or so you think)? The game is not an offline single player and the rules are for everyone. Trading as a concept is ideal for a Diablo game but the fact that people will always bring real world economy into the game breaks the most basic principles of the game that has very low drop rates for a reason. The game wasn't designed around the premise of getting all imba items in a heartbeat. I bet D2 trading sounded like a great idea at the time but it just won't work in this day and age.
Also, every gamer who wants to have bragging rights for investing the time of their life in a videogame that is designed around rare and valuable achievements, should rightfully expect those and I support that fully. People who argue against BoA love to attack such gamers in their posts and call them out for being "pathetic" or "sad". From my point of view, what is truly sad, is that people are so selfish about some features in the game for all the insignificant reasons (and in some cases invalidated with how the game is going to change fundamentally), that they are not only willing to be completely blind to how these features are breaking the entirety of the game forever, but also preach to other people that they should be equally blind to those obvious problems (or simply don't care) or else they're just sad bunch. All I'm saying is that even if you personally don't play this game competitively, you have no rights to look down on people who do.
It's all about finding items and having a tailored experience that is based around what you DO find. Not focusing on what you don't. There will be so many equally viable builds stemming from hundreds of different legendaries that even if you don't find every specific one that you want, you will still have fun personally finding the ones that you do and constantly transitioning how you play and what skills you choose based on what you find as you progress; and the experience of doing so will make utilizing those legendaries that much greater because you didn't just trade for them on a whim or mimic what someone else was doing. That's my hope for all of this anyways.
So long as accounts can be sold this is the case. So, given that Blizzard hasn't made it impossible to buy accounts.... you probably should save yourself the heartache of finding out your "effort" is only "worth 10 bucks" and quit while you're ahead.
I sincerely doubt Chinese farmers will be selling entire accounts of D3+RoS just to accommodate some item sales. The market for entire sets of gear (which by the way you cannot pick and choose) as opposed to purchasing specific items is probably too miniscule for that to ever be a business. The account might contain X number of random legendaries but you have no way to pick and choose which ones they will be and there is no way to buy multiple accounts to combine the items you want or move items to your own account etc so I really don't see how this would work.
Let's say I need 1 legendary or 5 legendaries to complete my desired build or maybe I want an entire set of legendaries for every slot for some kind of build I have in mind. None of this can be accomplished by buying another account with the random stuff that dropped on it. Items are bound to account, not an owner.
I really don't mind the phenomenon where person A, who has played D3 for 2 years, decides to sell their account to person B, via eBay, and so all the characters and items changed ownership and now person B is playing that account instead of person A. Compare that to a Chinese businessman whose idea of starting a company is to make a website and buy 150 accounts and run bots on them 24/7 with the intent of mass producing items and selling them for a couple of bucks a pop. Moving items from one player to another player is vastly different from a company that literally does nothing but generate items and feeds them to the economy. Now imagine dozens of websites doing the exact same. Awesome stuff. AH/RMAH at least prevented this.
With a 7 day delay and the necessity to join friends list (or clan, as an alternative idea) it would not be done for every average item, and for the top items some people will always find a way (even if it's selling entire accounts).
The way'd be "friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend"
That means I can choose to play for hundreds of hours and achieve some sort of results, and then hundreds of hours later, a website will remind me that my effort was in retrospect worth about 10 bucks and I am going to scratch my head really hard. How can you not understand how this devalues the time you spend in the game? It has nothing to do with whether other people buy or don't buy items.
If you spend 100's of hours only to get some item, then you really should have stopped long ago. As long as you play for fun, you dont care what the others have or dont have. You have fun, this is what matters, and only then it's time well spent.
If you only care about the item and feel some sort of competition between you and anonimous player X who buys items with real world money, then you should probably just do the same, buy the item and be done with the game.
^ gotta take into account how we might wanna get as many Legendaries as possible in order to try them in RoS, if they're really become as interesting as we're expecting them to.
Also, Transmogrify will require that you find said Legendary. In that context, "hunting" an item might become quite a "chore" if you don't find it after 50-60 hours.
And I think Dimebog was alluding more to the effect that the AH (or third party websites) have in your game. They show you how meaningless your efforts are when compared to what is the average of the rest of the playerbase. It reminds you of how, no matter if you play 5 hours tonight, chances are you won't achieve anything neither in the short or long term.
Also, Transmogrify will require that you find said Legendary. In that context, "hunting" an item might become quite a "chore" if you don't find it after 50-60 hours.
Transmog is just another reason this "bind to game" system sucks.
Want to change item appearance? Stuck with RNG. So a system that's supposed to be based around "collect them all" is gimped severely because trading ruined some peoples eFun.
But, hey, finding your own items is so fun that it doesn't matter how much other shit we ruin! When you see the orange lightshaft you'll cream your pants so much because you found it! That is if you haven't ragequit because the rest of the game has become so boring and frustrating because the only social aspects left in it are chat. And chat will soon be removed because it's another way that people can figure out that others have better gear than they do and all such things that give that kind of information MUST be removed to preserve the sanctity of the orange lightshaft!
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The idea that I might never get some specific legendary is so much more appealing to me than knowing that everyone can get anything at whim sooner or later. Once and if the item actually drops, it will be all the more satisfying in the long run. Why is everyone entitled to the entirety of the loot?
Your first point is moot because sure they exist, and sure people use them but the majority of players do not. Most players don't run to D2jsp and start buying forum gold like candy and then getting items. It's a silly argument to make that everyone would do this practice just because the ah had the same fault, when in reality people would have to go out of their way to use d2jsp and most people wouldn't be comfortable using their money on a 3rd party site that isn't directly supported by Blizzard.
To the second point, as it stands every leg has an equal chance to drop. IF I'm not mistaken Legs currently work like this. Legendary drop rate is some arbitrary numebr and after that it has a 1/(However-many-gear-types-there-are) to be a certain gear type after which it has a 1/(how ever many legendaries for that gear type) to be the specific item. I'm almost positive there are no effective drop rates on a per item basis. Which could be another problem. And lastly, this point is also moot because they aren't striving for certain legs to be less useless or certain ones to be "top-tier" they have clearly stated numerous times they want every item to be a build changer, and make them all useful come endgame. This directly stands against what you said that certain ones won't drop as much because their current philosophy is to have every Legendary be equally as powerful as the last only in a different way. I.E Frostburns are great for Frost mages not so much for an CMWW mage, where as a Tasker and Theo might be more useful for the CMWW than the Frost Mage. It's not that anyone is "top-tier" or anyone is meant to be "better" per se but they both serve different purposes and its how well they serve the purpose that defines them as good or not.
It's not that the "Legendary" is bad. It's already automatically better than 90% of the rares, and even in it's "worst state" it's quite useable in Inferno low MPs (which is intended and completely related to the Diablo series).
The issue is how it's "useless" compared (keyword detected) to the average gear available on the AH! If you can have good base stats, good crit, good all res in a 50k Gold set item, why even bother with that "meh" pair of Gloves?
Take that all away, start a self found character, and suddenly that mediocre Butcher's Sickle is amazing and greatly boosts the damage granted by that shitty Zuni's Trails you found earlier.
=> Bad Legendaries that even with good rolls can't be useful? I can 100% agree with that. They need to be better (and more frequently) reworked.
=> But all of the Legendaries are like that? Absolutely not! Even things like a Fragment of Destiny would be more useful if the base quality and power of gear wasn't so high (again, AH).
Because the basic idea of an RNG-based loot system is that everyone has a shot? By definition we are ALL entitled to feel like any particular item is within reach. Part of "feeling like any particular item is within reach" demands that, in case of bad luck, we have some kind of recourse. That's what Gheed was, that's what Haedrig was supposed to be, that's what crafting in PoE is. Even though these systems are all based in RNG, they give you the "ok you picked up 40 yellows so now you can make one more new one of your choosing" level of control that makes it feel not quite as bad. They provide recourse against being subject to pure RNG. That's exactly what trading does.
18 months into D3 I've still yet to find ANY Mempo. By the time I find one it won't be remotely relevant. So, yes, i think people should have a REASONABLE shot to find quality items before they become irrelevant and if that means I have to trade 12 Lacuni Prowlers (because that's how RNG has treated me) for one Mempo of Twilight, so be it. I fail to see how that undermines the legitemacy of drops or how it alters anyone's overall enjoyment of the game. But don't be so crass or naive to try to lecture me about how it's good for the game that people have gone 18, or more, months without finding a Mempo. That's the kind of bad luck that makes people give up, not the kind of thing that adds long-term incentives to the game.
Imagine that your luck is so bad that the hand you're dealt is only Firewalkers. You never find any other set/legendary item. Ever. It's completely unlikely that that would happen, but what would your opinion be? Would you still be spouting off about people feeling entitled, or would you be on the forums raging that other people are getting sweet items and you're only ever dropping Firewalkers? My bet is that you'd feel slighted by RNG, but here you are calling people "entitled" for wanting ways to minimize the bad effects that RNG can have.
I am not a fan of any design decision such as this one that forces people to play a certain way. Also I have this gut feeling like this decision is to compensate for a much larger, lazy design decision.
For example, if this decision is to compensate for the fact that legendary items drop like candy in RoS I will be disappointed because the solution was to go from one extreme to the other rather than finding a reasonable, level-headed solution to the problem.
Like I said though ... I shall wait and see.
Again, if you want to look at it competitively, there's always Ladder.
So it's an issue of entitlement?
We are not talking about players expecting to find the best items in the game.
Even legendaries/sets will have randomization that separates them so that you will possibly never find
one in the top percentile range.
To suggest that we should limit it further so there's a chance players could never find a specific build changing legendary/set is ridiculous.
No, you would feel no sense of accomplishment.
Other players may feel differently on how they obtain their gear.
No, bro. Watch the vid for loot 2.0 announcement. Immediately after talking about how legendaries will be witnessed in the game a whole lot more often, there is an explanation that there are still going to be those really powerful legendaries that are very hard to find. And it's not true that every legendary has the equal chance of dropping, that is 100% incorrect.
And what is it that will be making it irrelevant? The fact that it will be a dirt cheap item you can get so easily from the AH, a friend, etc? Exactly. What makes items irrelevant is the urge people have to put price tags on items. What makes items irrelevant is that they are so readily available from ALL the sources OTHER than dropping during ACTUAL GAMEPLAY.
The reward being "some" control over that. As in if you complete certain milestones (elite kills? boss kills? bounties? neph rifts? "x" dmg dealt to other players?) one of the prizes could be "choosing" the Legendary that you want.
As far as rewards go, I don't think a lot of people care a lot about "vanity" items in a Diablo game (as was suggested in the past). And I don't think "exclusive Ladder items" is something that would work nowadays either. Instead, it would be a very unique prize in the sense that you get to circumvent some RNG if you wanna try a specific Legendary/Set.
It's a work-in-progress idea, though. Hopefully I'll find some time in this weekend's holiday to "publish" it with neat little photoshopped screenshots.
To point one, It really upsets you and devalues your game when someone just bought the item? REALLY? That's pretty sad that you completely devalue your time when someone bought something without working for it. The option will always be there whether you like it or not so I guess you could say good-bye to Diablo 3 because your entire Diablo 3 play time and usage was devaulued because I traded something on the AH! Sorry for ruining your experience bro.
To point two Listen again, he doesn't say that there are going to be one harder to find he says (after saying that 6 Legs drop on average) that there are still going to be those items that you want to find and work for, we aren't making legendaries go out of style they'll still have worth and we aren't handing you them. So What he really meant was here's 6 perfectly good legendaries that you can use, and its 6 so out of the 100's of legendaries there are you have 6 and now you have to work as in keep playing to get the ones you wanted because you might not always get the ones you want first try or 4th try or millionth try for that matter.
If I come off like a dick I'm truly not trying to be. I just feel like if it bothers you that much your probably shouldn't play, and IF you really didn't care then it wouldn't devalue your experience at all. Just sayin'
That means I can choose to play for hundreds of hours and achieve some sort of results, and then hundreds of hours later, a website will remind me that my effort was in retrospect worth about 10 bucks and I am going to scratch my head really hard. How can you not understand how this devalues the time you spend in the game? It has nothing to do with whether other people buy or don't buy items.
Well, right now I literally have 6-7 pairs of Gladiator's Gauntlets not counting the ones i salvaged and I'm pretty sure I would see a whole bunch of more Gladiator's Gauntlets and similar low end legendaries before ever finding a Mempo (which I still haven't). Unless you have some proof that this will suddenly change in RoS and that all legendaries are going to become equal in rarity (totally unreasonable to even consider) then I really don't see what you are trying to prove now. I also entirely disagree with your interpretation of "what he really meant" in that video. He actually said "we won't be handing them like they're going out of style" exactly so that people wouldn't jump to conclusions after hearing such a high number of legendaries found per run, but I guess people will always find a way to misinterpret very plain statements and get their own meaning of things.
The fact that all legendaries are going to be somewhat good doesn't mean "every legendary is equal in power". It's the unique effects they have that make them interesting or useful in certain scenarios. On Blizzcon they also said during a panel that the rarer an item is, the more powerful it should be, period (although you can easily misinterpret this too if you wish).
Wrong he in no way states that any legendary will be more rare than the last or the fact that the legendaries would have tiers to them. Never does anyone ever say this. Rarity as In Blue yellow and Legendary/sets sure, and the legendary affixes are just build changes. The actual stats that an item can roll is what will ultimately make you look for this item over this one. In my example Frostburn is currently the only glove or item for that matter that increases cold damage by a percent, and it's not measly 10 in the new version is had a sick percentage i think around 40% could be mistaken and it could be closer to 30%. That's what makes that item so appealing. The legendary affix is just another reason to get a legendary.
And yet when he says we find 6 on average that just screams "hey have some legs" I mean finding one a run would be a lot personally. It's supposed to be rewarding when you find it not hey here's 6 of em. I feel like he and you are missing the point entirely. The fact that so many are dropping is bad. It will over inflate the market as quickly as the consoles market did. And now with a smaller stat range it'll be even easier to find better gear. Maybe a bit too easy. I can't say for sure cause I haven't tested but the numbers are starting to look worse and worse when you think about how easy it'll be to find gear.
And it isn't unreasonable to consider that all legs will be equal in power especially since now every item can roll at higher iLVL, which in turn means your gladiator Gauntlets can now roll stats equal to 750-900 main stat at max. That makes them pretty useful for someone who just got to 70 and doesn't really have gear. If they add a legendary affix that helps you out and they add a special affix for them that's also useful that could be your end game glove. You could end up using it over anything else because it'll suit your playstyle better. If you listen to the blizzcon panels they all say that they want to move away from trifecta by adding other valuable stats, some of these stats may only be on a single item and that can make them arguably better. So i don't see why it's unreasonable to have them all be equal. That's how it should be after all. There isn't one right way to play with your items and if there is that's just saying that blizzard has horrible itemization skills and has to completely overhaul their legendaries AGAIN! You shouldn't be able to say, alright THIS IS BiS for WIZ. It should be this is really useful for Frost mages, but this is more useful for CMWW.
I feel like your train of thought is kind of stuck on the fact that there will only be maybe 1 or 2 items per slot that will be any good for your character. I think the idea is that each class will have 10-15 legendaries per slot that will be viable. The way the game is now if you didn't find a mempo you'd basically be screwed on that slot, but the aim is that hopefully that is not how it will be. After loot 2.0 if you don't find a mempo there are 10 other helms you could find that you would be just as excited about and after playing casually for a week or so at max level you may not find all of them, or the specific one you want, but you will find at least a couple.
The feel of the game would be that everyone's item journey would be different and your experienced would be personally tailored around what you find and what order you find the items. Instead of saying "I need item A on my helm, item B on my chest, item C on my boot otherwise my character will never be good" you will find a healthy amount of different legendaries that are all equally good across all your items slots. By the time you've played for a few months on that character, the hope is you will then find many of the items you desired, but maybe not every specific one, but you will still treasure the ones you did find more because there was a risk that you never would have found them that makes the reward that much sweeter. If you don't get one specific item, it won't be the end all be all that forever shames your character. As you progress and find different legendaries you work with what you find to create a unique character that found items in a way no one else did creating a unique experience that was tailored just for you.
To me this is way better than just reading a thread on a forum where player X used these 13 items, then going to a trade channel to copy his build item for item. Then you've killed the need and experience of actually hunting for those items. Then all you are doing is hunting for higher stat versions of the same items you already traded for, which is pretty bland.
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I understand that, but the fact that we have "build-defining" items means that if you don't find X, Y, or Z, you're not just locked out of not having access to the item, but potentially the build it supports. I *do not* like that thought. If it were as simple as "I didn't find <item1> but I can replace it with <item2> or <item3>" then we're talking a majorly different story, but that's not what "build-defining" means to me. If items are that generic, then they're not going to define builds. They're going to be much closer to what we have now.
At the end of the day, though, it is demoralizing and NOT FUN to go the entire duration of an expansion cycle without having found an item and know you have no way to rectify that. Right now, even though I've not found a Mempo, if it truly means enough to me, I can go to the AH and fix that. I can assess my situation and make a decision based on pros and cons. I have SOME degree of control over my enjoyment of the game. Throwing everything to RNG is a really bad idea. This is why they have systems like smart drops and the mystic... but both of those are still based in RNG, so it doesn't feel like the appropriate escape.
Trading, however, has always provided that safety net. You don't find an item, but your heart is set on it, you can give up some of the other stuff you've amassed and attempt to get that item. This ability to assess a situation, choose from multiple options, it's the essence of life.
"Go grind harder" is just a cop-out answer for a system that's broken.
Good idea for a way to incentivize ladder without going the "exclusive items" route. And I agree that in a world without trading, some control like that is exactly what the game requires. I still fall back on the hyperbolic argument just to make a point:
*** "you" does not refer to Zero henceforth ***
What if the only legendary you found for your entire time in D3 was Firewalkers? Would you still argue that no trading is a good thing? Would you still tell others that they're acting "entitled" because they want to feel they have a shot to get what they want to make their character the way they want? Of course not. Everyone would agree that if you only ever got Firewalkers you have been the victim of some absolutely terrible RNG bad luck. So the question is... where is that invisible line in the sand between "terrible luck, needs fixing" and "suck it up nancy-boy?"
I spent years in D2 and I never got a PERFECT Vamp Gaze. But I did get several perfectly-servicable Vamp Gazes. However, I also never got *any* Windforce, even the shittiest of shitty Windforces. The first scenario made me feel like, even though I had attained good items, I still had something to strive for (the perfect... or near-perfect... Vamp Gaze). The second scenario made me felt beat-down by RNG.
There has to be a better system than saying "well if you feel like you deserve a Windforce then you're entitled." No, I'm not entitled. I'm just a gamer who is interested in a decent shot at character progression in a game dominated by randomized drops. This isn't WoW where I know if I kill Illidan there's a 1% chance he drops a Warglaive. There aren't set-in-stone loot tables like that.
So long as accounts can be sold this is the case. So, given that Blizzard hasn't made it impossible to buy accounts.... you probably should save yourself the heartache of finding out your "effort" is only "worth 10 bucks" and quit while you're ahead.
Alright. I could be the one misinterpreting what was said so far but I'll just recheck when I'm not tired. You could be right about the legendaries since, after all, they are making the lowbie ones drop at lvl 70 etc and those Frostburns did look pretty end-gameish but who's to say.
With regards to the other issue which you didn't touch on in your last post, I will only add this: you have to understand that a black market would flourish now that AH and RMAH are being removed. As soon as I am put in a position to evaluate whether I should go on and grind the game for another year or just buy everything I need instantly and cheap (to save my time and perhaps do something more productive with my life in the meanwhile like actually make money) I will want to know exactly what is the incentive for me to choose the actual game instead of the short route there. What is it that will not make me feel like a fool for wasting my eyesight and PC peripherals? What is my incentive to accept a full time job that pays in a wheel of cheese by the end of each month instead of just buying the cheese for the $10 I have in my pocket right now? I want a full months salary (metaphor for a proper reward) or indeed, I'm opting out of the game, like you said. I would play the game a little bit but it would all soon start feeling like a waste of time, especially ladders since those are actually designed to be competitive in nature.
I really actually don't care about other peoples' gaming habits in this particular case. But your approach of "don't ask don't tell" makes me think you would probably not be too opposed to duping, hacking, item editing if they existed in the game, and wouldn't view any of that as a problem as long as it doesn't affect you directly (or so you think)? The game is not an offline single player and the rules are for everyone. Trading as a concept is ideal for a Diablo game but the fact that people will always bring real world economy into the game breaks the most basic principles of the game that has very low drop rates for a reason. The game wasn't designed around the premise of getting all imba items in a heartbeat. I bet D2 trading sounded like a great idea at the time but it just won't work in this day and age.
Also, every gamer who wants to have bragging rights for investing the time of their life in a videogame that is designed around rare and valuable achievements, should rightfully expect those and I support that fully. People who argue against BoA love to attack such gamers in their posts and call them out for being "pathetic" or "sad". From my point of view, what is truly sad, is that people are so selfish about some features in the game for all the insignificant reasons (and in some cases invalidated with how the game is going to change fundamentally), that they are not only willing to be completely blind to how these features are breaking the entirety of the game forever, but also preach to other people that they should be equally blind to those obvious problems (or simply don't care) or else they're just sad bunch. All I'm saying is that even if you personally don't play this game competitively, you have no rights to look down on people who do.
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Let's say I need 1 legendary or 5 legendaries to complete my desired build or maybe I want an entire set of legendaries for every slot for some kind of build I have in mind. None of this can be accomplished by buying another account with the random stuff that dropped on it. Items are bound to account, not an owner.
I really don't mind the phenomenon where person A, who has played D3 for 2 years, decides to sell their account to person B, via eBay, and so all the characters and items changed ownership and now person B is playing that account instead of person A. Compare that to a Chinese businessman whose idea of starting a company is to make a website and buy 150 accounts and run bots on them 24/7 with the intent of mass producing items and selling them for a couple of bucks a pop. Moving items from one player to another player is vastly different from a company that literally does nothing but generate items and feeds them to the economy. Now imagine dozens of websites doing the exact same. Awesome stuff. AH/RMAH at least prevented this.
The way'd be "friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend"
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
If you spend 100's of hours only to get some item, then you really should have stopped long ago. As long as you play for fun, you dont care what the others have or dont have. You have fun, this is what matters, and only then it's time well spent.
If you only care about the item and feel some sort of competition between you and anonimous player X who buys items with real world money, then you should probably just do the same, buy the item and be done with the game.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Also, Transmogrify will require that you find said Legendary. In that context, "hunting" an item might become quite a "chore" if you don't find it after 50-60 hours.
And I think Dimebog was alluding more to the effect that the AH (or third party websites) have in your game. They show you how meaningless your efforts are when compared to what is the average of the rest of the playerbase. It reminds you of how, no matter if you play 5 hours tonight, chances are you won't achieve anything neither in the short or long term.
Transmog is just another reason this "bind to game" system sucks.
Want to change item appearance? Stuck with RNG. So a system that's supposed to be based around "collect them all" is gimped severely because trading ruined some peoples eFun.
But, hey, finding your own items is so fun that it doesn't matter how much other shit we ruin! When you see the orange lightshaft you'll cream your pants so much because you found it! That is if you haven't ragequit because the rest of the game has become so boring and frustrating because the only social aspects left in it are chat. And chat will soon be removed because it's another way that people can figure out that others have better gear than they do and all such things that give that kind of information MUST be removed to preserve the sanctity of the orange lightshaft!