I will do a mathematical example to show what I mean.
Assuming 200 mf gives triple the amount of blue/yellow items and 50 mf gives 1.5x the amount of blues/yellows.
Pre-nerf: If you get 100 blue/yellow items while killing 100 elites in Act 1 with 0 mf, then you would receive 300 blues/yellows with 200 mf. Of those 300 blue/yellow items, 4% of them will be ilvl 63. Thus you would have 12 ilvl 63 magic items.
If you get 25 items while killing 25 elites in Act 3 with 0 mf(Due to 4x the amount of health), you would receive 75 blue/yellow items with 200 mf. Of those 75 blue/yellow items, 16% will be ilvl 63. Thus you would have 12 ilvl 63 blue/yellow items.
The drop rates are equal in this example since magic find is held constant between acts.
Post-nerf: If you get 25 items while killing 25 elites in Act 3 with 0 mf, you will get 37.5 blue/yellow items with 50 mf. of those 37.5 items, 16% will be ilvl 63. Thus you would have 6 ilvl 63 blue/yellow items, half of what you would get in the same amount of time killing with 200 mf in Act 1.
If you see a mathematical error, please let me know.
Using these numbers to find the total ilvl 61 to ilvl 63 items in Act 1 and Act 3.
Pre-nerf:
With 200 mf in Act 1, you would get 71.7 ilvl 61 items, 37.8 ilvl 62 items, and 14.4 ilvl 63 items. (I used the correct 4.8% drop rate instead of my 4% before)
With 200 mf in Act 3, you would get 20.3 ilvl 61 items, 16.7 ilvl 62 items, and 12.2 ilvl 63 items.
Obviously, Act 1 is hugely favored here, but there are many other variables to consider such as monster damage, map size, bosses, tanking ability, etc...
Post-nerf:
With 50 mf in Act 3, you would get 10.2 ilvl 61 items, 8.4 ilvl 62 items, and 6.1 ilvl 63 items.
If Act 1 was favored pre-nerf, then it completely demolishes Act 3 post-nerf. You need equal percents of mf to have Act 3 be 'equal' to Act 1.
You're assuming you take 4x more time to kill stuff in Act 3 then in Act 1 and thats not correct. Some elites have less then 4x the HP. Also, thrash mobs matter and you kill thrash mobs in the very same speed since if you have enough gear to farm act 3 you're overkilling thrash mobs. If you cause 100k per hit, it doesn't matter if monsters have 80k or 8k hp, they are dying in the same speed.
For all practical purposes, I'm going to assume that you only care about the drops from elites. You will not get enough rares from white mobs to make up the difference between Act 1 and Act 3. And on average, the elites in Act 1 have roughly 600k-900k hp while elites in Act 3 have 1.9m-2.8m hp. The difference is probably closer to 3x-3.5x, but the drop rates are a 16.3:4.8 ratio, equating to 3.39. And that's not even including the intangible information such as the annoying monster types, increased damage, and ranged attacks.
You're assuming you take 4x more time to kill stuff in Act 3 then in Act 1 and thats not correct. Some elites have less then 4x the HP. Also, thrash mobs matter and you kill thrash mobs in the very same speed since if you have enough gear to farm act 3 you're overkilling thrash mobs. If you cause 100k per hit, it doesn't matter if monsters have 80k or 8k hp, they are dying in the same speed.
Interesting point ^
Any sort of AoE just usually destroys white mobs. They're soooo much weaker than elites (the difference is huge).
I just want to discuss one of the possible ramifications of nerfing gear swapping: the amount of viable farming spots.
Currently, there is only a small incentive to farm Act 2/3/4 over Act 1. A moderate amount of gear is needed to make farming Act 2 more effective than Act 1 while Act 3/4 require even better equipment to make it viable. But being able to gear swap keeps each act on par with each other since the magic find variable is held constant. If a magic gear swap nerf takes place without a change in drop rates, then farming Act 2/3/4 will become an unviable farming method for the majority of gamers.
Gear swapping is basically just combining 2 pieces of gear into 1 single piece. I fail to see the restriction of this act as a negative act. If not being able to combine gear together will be your limiting factor towards farming later inferno acts, then it sounds like the change will do it's job.
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"Anything I say can't, and won't be used against me because if they understood my point, they'd have given up theirs." -Christopher Hitchens
Sigh, this thread is not about getting mf on dps gear. It's about the fact that the drop rates will become unbalanced once the magic find value is not constant anymore.
Sigh, this thread is not about getting mf on dps gear. It's about the fact that the drop rates will become unbalanced once the magic find value is not constant anymore.
My subtle point being that it's already been pointed out that gear is the X-factor in all the comparative equations. The repair cost increase has put many people back into defensive mode so they'd stop hemorrhaging gold. The gap between Act 1, 2 and 3 drop rates is huge but it's still not enough to justify the risk for most. I posit that there are more people farming Act 1 because of difficulty than because of efficiency. I was far more scared about seeing Act 4 inferno being farmed by a million people a few months in than I was people farming Act 1 for the smallest chance at upgrades.
I farm Act 3 regularly and occasionally go back to Act 1 or 2 when I run with friends. While there is an element of chance to everything, I would never go back to Act 1 after experiencing first-hand just how lucrative Act 2/3 are. And yes, my responses being devoid of theorycrafting does relegate my words to the philosophy bin.
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"Anything I say can't, and won't be used against me because if they understood my point, they'd have given up theirs." -Christopher Hitchens
I too don't farm in Act 1. But that's because right now, as long as you can kill fast enough, Act 1 and Act 3 are roughly on even ground in terms of ilvl 63 drops. But once that gear swap nerf hits, I'll have to choose between farming Act 1 with 200 magic find, or doing Whimsyshire with maybe 50-100 magic find. I'd much, much prefer farming in a different location for the same drop rates as Act 1, but it becomes less and less viable without equal levels of magic find.
Hold on a sec. Are you actually claiming that this cheesy gear-swapping shit, which is the only reason to farm acts 2-4, is good game design?
Lol dude. This game is designed terribly. The fact that fixing a glaring exploit will make the game even worse illustrates its bad design quite clearly.
I said in like the first line of the post that this thread is not about the fairness or unfairness of gear swapping. And then I proposed my solution of buffing later drop rates to counterbalance the nerf. Try reading the thread next time please.
I said in like the first line of the post that this thread is not about the fairness or unfairness of gear swapping. And then I proposed my solution of buffing later drop rates to counterbalance the nerf. Try reading the thread next time please.
You don't get to make up rules. You say something silly I'm going to call you on it. Tough shit
I personally think Blizzard is stupid for even looking at MF gear swapping as a "problem that needs to be fixed". If stupid people want to waste bag space in MF gear and swap it, fine, that is their choice. I will continue to farm in my MF gear and upgrade it for further acts as I have done since I started playing the game. Right now I am in 300 MF farming act 3 without swapping anything. Its not hard to do.
I'm not sure how I said something silly when the second line of the first post says this:
First off, this thread is not about how fair or unfair magic gear swapping is. I just want to discuss one of the possible ramifications of nerfing gear swapping: the amount of viable farming spots
I personally think Blizzard is stupid for even looking at MF gear swapping as a "problem that needs to be fixed". If stupid people want to waste bag space in MF gear and swap it, fine, that is their choice. I will continue to farm in my MF gear and upgrade it for further acts as I have done since I started playing the game. Right now I am in 300 MF farming act 3 without swapping anything. Its not hard to do.
If people want to manually mf swap it is fine but people do not manually mf swap they use a script which is untracable by blizzard. This makes MF swapping in most cases cheating and is against the spirit of the game.
While the % chance of each ilevel drop is fixed, you assume that by getting 100 drops, you will get the established statistical result of said posted drop rates.
However, that is simply not true. You could get 10,000 drops and potentially NEVER see an ilevel 63 in Act 1. So, assuming the drop chance to be fixed and assured to produce the end result, is incorrect.
Additionally, while MF does increase the chance of an item being Magic/Rare/Legendary/Set, we do NOT know the numbers it is amplifying. We do not know the inherit "Chance to Drop Magical Item" value of monsters, so we have no way to know how much a given MF% applies to it. It could be that Act 3/4 enemies have a like 7% chance, where Act 1 is only 5%. That would HORRIBLY skew your results. Trying to complete a formula with missing variables doesn't work.
I know that the effect of magic find is not linear as was assumed in my equation. However, that is irrelevant since the only time when Act 1 and Act 3 will be equal is when equal amounts of mf is used, thus cancelling the multiplier on both sides of the equation. Any extra magic find used in Act 1 will tilt the scales in favor of earlier acts even if the benefit of magic find is only 5% more rares per 100 mf.
I personally think Blizzard is stupid for even looking at MF gear swapping as a "problem that needs to be fixed". If stupid people want to waste bag space in MF gear and swap it, fine, that is their choice. I will continue to farm in my MF gear and upgrade it for further acts as I have done since I started playing the game. Right now I am in 300 MF farming act 3 without swapping anything. Its not hard to do.
If people want to manually mf swap it is fine but people do not manually mf swap they use a script which is untracable by blizzard. This makes MF swapping in most cases cheating and is against the spirit of the game.
There is no such thing as an untraceable script. They just haven't figured out how to trace it yet. When they do, which they will, every cheating scumbag using it will lose their accounts.
While the % chance of each ilevel drop is fixed, you assume that by getting 100 drops, you will get the established statistical result of said posted drop rates.
However, that is simply not true. You could get 10,000 drops and potentially NEVER see an ilevel 63 in Act 1. So, assuming the drop chance to be fixed and assured to produce the end result, is incorrect.
Additionally, while MF does increase the chance of an item being Magic/Rare/Legendary/Set, we do NOT know the numbers it is amplifying. We do not know the inherit "Chance to Drop Magical Item" value of monsters, so we have no way to know how much a given MF% applies to it. It could be that Act 3/4 enemies have a like 7% chance, where Act 1 is only 5%. That would HORRIBLY skew your results. Trying to complete a formula with missing variables doesn't work.
100% correct. Last week I made close to 40million gold and 250 dollar because I got really lucky on ilvl 62 and 63 drops. The past few days I have dropped almost nothing, I think in the last 2 days I have made 400k gold. Just because you have a 10% chance to get something doesn't mean you will get 10 out of 100.
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Using these numbers to find the total ilvl 61 to ilvl 63 items in Act 1 and Act 3.
Pre-nerf:
With 200 mf in Act 1, you would get 71.7 ilvl 61 items, 37.8 ilvl 62 items, and 14.4 ilvl 63 items. (I used the correct 4.8% drop rate instead of my 4% before)
With 200 mf in Act 3, you would get 20.3 ilvl 61 items, 16.7 ilvl 62 items, and 12.2 ilvl 63 items.
Obviously, Act 1 is hugely favored here, but there are many other variables to consider such as monster damage, map size, bosses, tanking ability, etc...
Post-nerf:
With 50 mf in Act 3, you would get 10.2 ilvl 61 items, 8.4 ilvl 62 items, and 6.1 ilvl 63 items.
If Act 1 was favored pre-nerf, then it completely demolishes Act 3 post-nerf. You need equal percents of mf to have Act 3 be 'equal' to Act 1.
That is the amount that mf helped you obtain.
The problem with Act 2 and 3+4 is not the amount of ilvl 63 rares, it's the amount of deaths.
Deaths cost money and time.
As pointed out the chests have blues and blue 1k weapons still sell.
You aren't factoring in how important NV stacks are.
You aren't factoring in travel time (as shaggy pointed out)
you get 175 mf base
for act 2
you need to clear at the same rate in act 1 at 350 mf
or act 3 at the same rate at numbers not attainable at the moment.
As you gear you will face roll act 3 + 4 eventually just not this month.
If you kill 100 elites in Act 1, then you will receive 100 rares of which; 23.9 will be ilvl 61, 12.6 will be ilvl 62, and 4.8 will be ilvl 63.
If you kill 25 elites in Act 3 in the same amount of time, you will receive; 6.75 ilvl 61 items, 5.43 ilvl 62 items, and 4.08 ilvl 63 items.
Any sort of AoE just usually destroys white mobs. They're soooo much weaker than elites (the difference is huge).
Gear swapping is basically just combining 2 pieces of gear into 1 single piece. I fail to see the restriction of this act as a negative act. If not being able to combine gear together will be your limiting factor towards farming later inferno acts, then it sounds like the change will do it's job.
I farm Act 3 regularly and occasionally go back to Act 1 or 2 when I run with friends. While there is an element of chance to everything, I would never go back to Act 1 after experiencing first-hand just how lucrative Act 2/3 are. And yes, my responses being devoid of theorycrafting does relegate my words to the philosophy bin.
Lol dude. This game is designed terribly. The fact that fixing a glaring exploit will make the game even worse illustrates its bad design quite clearly.
I personally think Blizzard is stupid for even looking at MF gear swapping as a "problem that needs to be fixed". If stupid people want to waste bag space in MF gear and swap it, fine, that is their choice. I will continue to farm in my MF gear and upgrade it for further acts as I have done since I started playing the game. Right now I am in 300 MF farming act 3 without swapping anything. Its not hard to do.
If people want to manually mf swap it is fine but people do not manually mf swap they use a script which is untracable by blizzard. This makes MF swapping in most cases cheating and is against the spirit of the game.
While the % chance of each ilevel drop is fixed, you assume that by getting 100 drops, you will get the established statistical result of said posted drop rates.
However, that is simply not true. You could get 10,000 drops and potentially NEVER see an ilevel 63 in Act 1. So, assuming the drop chance to be fixed and assured to produce the end result, is incorrect.
Additionally, while MF does increase the chance of an item being Magic/Rare/Legendary/Set, we do NOT know the numbers it is amplifying. We do not know the inherit "Chance to Drop Magical Item" value of monsters, so we have no way to know how much a given MF% applies to it. It could be that Act 3/4 enemies have a like 7% chance, where Act 1 is only 5%. That would HORRIBLY skew your results. Trying to complete a formula with missing variables doesn't work.
There is no such thing as an untraceable script. They just haven't figured out how to trace it yet. When they do, which they will, every cheating scumbag using it will lose their accounts.
100% correct. Last week I made close to 40million gold and 250 dollar because I got really lucky on ilvl 62 and 63 drops. The past few days I have dropped almost nothing, I think in the last 2 days I have made 400k gold. Just because you have a 10% chance to get something doesn't mean you will get 10 out of 100.