With the talk lately about how Diablo 3 is going to "die" because "lots" of players are leaving, people are started to ask for better or more "End Game" content. People are also using the supposed lack of "End Game" content as another reason why Diablo 3 is bad, and on and on.
It recently dawned on me that with all the posts I've seen about it, no one defines what "End Game" means to them (which is why I put it in quotes, it's never been defined), and what kind of game should have it. I feel this is something that needs to be defined before we can have any productive discussion on Diablo 3's "End Game" content, or lack there of. Hopefully this will allow us to get a better idea of what we're arguing about (if I have a poor understanding of your position, it is unlikely I can effectively argue against it, and it unlikely you can effectively argue for it).
So, please vote, and please elaborate on your opinion (the point is to get the unsaid assumptions out in the open, because I think the various sides are arguing about their beliefs without stating them). As I only spent a few minutes thinking up poll options, please ask if you have another option, I'll try and add it. And please try and keep your answers to questions 1 and 2 separate, as much as possible.
To start off, my opinion:
Question 1)
To me, "End Game" means on going new content, that is both outside the story, and beyond what the "average" (average as in, the average forum goer/serious gamer) player will get to, with a side order of challenge/horde/points modes. So, for D3, it's Inferno. For Borderlands, it was Crawmerax and Moxie's Underdome. For TL, it was that endless random dungeon (that I never bothered with). For Strategy games like Civ or Anno, it's challenge maps that come out periodically. For other games, it's the score attack modes (again, that I don't play). I generally don't include any kind of PvP as end game, because you can (usually) play it while you finish the "main" game. I suppose if I bothered with PvP, it would be the max level only raids that don't advance the story.
A key here is that "End Game" content can be both endless (horde modes), or finite (Inferno).
Question 2)
To me, the only games that NEEDS "End Game" are the games that are getting on going profit from me without directly backing it up. Just because I don't like the idea of letting anyone profit of me without me getting compensated to some extent.
The subs genre is the most obvious, because I don't believe in paying monthly of server access for a single, static, game. In less the server access is balls to the walls awesome, it should really be doing something to compensate me, cause I already probably sunk $60 into the game.
Any game that wants to use overt ads should also probably have something to compensate me. If they're making money selling my eyeballs to companies, I should get that back somehow, whether it's a cheaper game or free content. Possibly I'd be okay with it if the ads are REALLY well integrated, like a NASCAR/Formula 1 racing game where they sold ads on the cars. As long as it didn't slow down the game, I think I'd be okay as it makes it look more like real life). But if it's like Sony's latest patent that involves interrupting games for a commercial, or the really poorly done ad integration like Deus Ex: HR had last year, then they profited off me and took my time. I should get something in return for that.
If it's F2P, it doesn't need it (cause I'm getting the game for free. I haven't given the company money yet, so I can't demand anything from them), but it should probably have it to keep people playing, give me a reason to pay them (awesome skins, newest maps, etc).
As you can probably see, my idea of End Game is to compensate on going profit, where the end game is what I'm paying for. I don't include D3 in this, because I have only paid $60, and the RMAH fee Blizzard gets is for the service of allowing people to make money from a virtual item/circumvent the item grind.
TL;DR:
1) I aim to facilitate end game discussion by clearing up what is end game to you, and when does a game need it.
2) Please Vote. If you don't see an option you want, please ask, I'll try and put it up.
3) Personal Opinion - End game is anything that most people will not complete (like Inferno), that is done after the "game" (post lvl 60 in D3, post lvl 80ish in D2, etc).
4) Personal Opinion - such end game is only mandatory when the company expects me to continue paying them for the end game content.
5) Personal Opinion - The RMAH does not constituent payment with the expectation of ongoing new content, as the payment is for someone else's virtual item, and Blizzard's fee is for the service of allowing me to buy said item, or profit from playing a video game. If the RMAH where me buying directly from Blizzard (as in, they were selling items that weren't a drop for a player), then this would not be true.
The way that you've described end game is pretty much exactly what I believe it is. Either you are paying them monthly to constantly have new things ie. WoW or adding in new things to keep me there longer.
I think most of the people that complain about lack of end game content in D3 are those that don't fully realize what kind of game this is. You've paid your $60 and probably have put in 100 or more hours. You have effectively shown that this game is more engrossing then 90% of the crap that most developers come out with nowadays. This is an ARPG. there isn't endgame. there is the item hunt or soon to be PvP. They don't add in things because this type of game doesn't need them.
Although I'm guessing that come possible expansion time I bet they will add in new content. I am curious if they will possibly raise the level cap or something else.
For me, D3's 'End Game' is starts at Nightmare and ends when Diablo/Inferno dies. That's that. I don't expect it to be (theoretically) endless, and the AH is a useful tool to get me closer to the finish line.
But I can see (although not really understand) that others see the late-Inferno item-hunt as being the endgame. For them, it's pretty much endless (or at least an order of magnitude longer than my endgame), and the AH actually undermines it.
I actually have no experience with the legendary D2 endgame... but it actually sounds breathtakingly dull. I played D2 exclusively solo, and my gear acquisition woes were solved with a fairly straightforward mod
However, a lot of 'D3 Endgame' discussion seems to revolve around whether Blizzard has given us a 400 hour endgame or a 4000 hour endgame... which seems a little spurious given how much value for money either option represents.
The "End Game" people throw around in the context of Diablo II is totally a misnomer, as the pleas are for the devs to make the game not have an end. Obviously you can only stretch the present game structure so far, but what players want is the ladder/ranking system as well as PVP. Players want to prove they're the best, and for a lot of these guys like Kripparrian, Force, etc., the challenge of maxing out hardcore simply isn't enough. They and others were expecting years worth of play out of this.
End Game Content is replayability, whether that comes at replaying the same game again, only harder or in a different way, or it comes from replaying a certain section of the game, like Baal runs, or running a certain game mode or challenges after the "main game" is completed.
They were banking on item farming to be enough endgame. That would be fine if this were no auction house. However, the auction house essentially killed the "point" of Diablo to begin with. Why farm when you can just buy better gear? Especially since the drop rates were nerfed to make you feel more enticed to visit said auction house. The item hunt itself is bland. All Uniques/Legendaries are boring and or weak. Item "upgrades" are usually a very minor increase to one of your stats, and rarely a large DPS boost, or Armor boost.
D3 has no more character progression. You max out your level before "end game" (Inferno), and you gain nothing that improves your character outside of items. You have no alternate modes, like PvP (coming "Soon"(tm) ), or an "endless dungeon". It has minimum randomization within the game itself, be that in the levels, dungeons, monster varieties, mini-quests...Once you've played through the game 3 times and are playing through it the 4th "end-game" time, you've most likely seen most if not all (and that's only with one character!). It has no character "permanency", so replaying it to level up new toons is limited. 10 characters is all you will need, 5 of each class, female and male, hardcore and softcore, and you are done.
The problem is that Inferno was done as part of the game progression. Ie, you go through Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and then you do the "real game" in Inferno. Thus the beginning 3 playthroughs are boring as sin because you are trying to get through them as fast as possible to get to the "real game". Inferno should have been an aside to the main game, like Challenge Modes or PVP. It should also not have been the only thing to do! As well, make the beginning 3 difficulties actually fun and interesting to play, and offer something to do once you've levelled to max level.
So, You need to improve the core game first. Itemization. Give me something to hunt for. Give me items that are worthwhile. Add resistances/damage types/elemental types back into the game, making items more interesting, as well as giving characters more reasons to choose between items other than DPS. Give me Uniques that are interesting. Give me large varieties in items and socketables to make it interesting to hunt for them. You need more than just 4 gems and they need to do more interesting things in each thing you socket. You need jewels back to give more mods to add to items. You need more varieties of Affixes and Suffixes. You need to increase the drop rates of things that are interesting (uniques/sets). You need to give more ways to improve items, and at the same time you need to remove items from the game in order to encourage hunting. This is due to the auction house, which we know will not be removed.
You need to have some sort of destruction. Why not have it cost an item and a gem to add a socket to another item? Why not have it cost progressively more items and gems in order to add more sockets, up to the max number a specific item can hold? Maybe things like a 2-handed sword can get up to 6 or 8 sockets in it, while one handers can only get 3 (encourage 2-handed usage). Why not make rings and amulets more expensive to stick sockets into?
Why not add a use for white items into crafting? Remember searching for that perfect ethereal item with sockets to throw runes into? Or bring imbuing back. Or how about being able to personalize your items so that you can have "Jaroh's Great Axe of Cleverness" or some such, or let us create a set. There's so much more you can do with items that were done.
You need to add some sort of character personalization and progression back to the game. How about allowing us to "socket" a skill, and by sticking a gem into it, you give that skill some modifiers, like increased radius, or multishot, or lifesteal, or crushing blow, or any number of interesting modifiers that you can attach to gems. Using Jewels, you can get people to add random mods to their skills as well. Changing skills destroys the gem/jewel. Maybe you can gain a socket with experience after reaching level 60? Or using the mystic?
You need to let us get powerful. You need to let us be able to kill waves after waves of demons and make it fun to do so, not kite a couple around for minutes until you finally kill one and then do it again, for the rest of the entire endgame! You need to get rid of 1-shots, at least in the extreme amounts they are using. What do we do with quest rewards once we've reached level 60? Make them interesting and tie them to character development. Give us a way to improve followers, skills, abilities, runes for their skills, what have you.
You need more Randomization. In the overland, you need more varieties of monsters and monster attacks in each area. Maybe a pool of available monsters in each area to choose from, so you never know what you are going to face until you are there. You need more randomness in the overland tiles as well. Make the land larger, with more random blocks in them. Add more offshoots. Remember the "you want people to explore every corner of the map because you never know what you will find?" That kind of feeling.
In dungeons, the same thing, but you also need more randomization to the maps themselves, in the number of map tiles as well as the sizes of the maps, and the "mazeness" of them. You need more variety to the scripted events, so that you don't always face 4 skeletons coming out of the ground here, or 3 skeletons jumping through the window there, or 4 zombie halves coming at you from the trees there, or 3 bats from the holes over there. You need this to be a variety, so that you don't know what or how many to expect, or even if some are bosses or not.
You need more random events for every area of the game. You need more random lines from followers (or else just shut them up!). You need more random numbers of enemies in each group, but overall you need much larger packs, so that you can kill mobs of them. You need more "optional bosses" that are not just "normal" enemies, but unique enemies that aren't part of the main progression. The later acts definitely need "more" everything...
Replayability. You need to make the land progressively larger for each difficulty. You need to add in new areas/monsters/quests in each progressive difficulty. Make the areas larger, more variety, deeper dungeons, more offshoots, more miniquests. You need to kill the story. It is terribly written and we don't want to be forced into it anymore. Or improve it. One of the two. The story needs to be sidelined from the game so that "pressing escape" is not necessary. Add more character choices, whether that be more skills to choose from, or making existing ideas more fleshed out (Melee Wizards and Ranged Barbs for example).
You need to add more modes. Add a Challenge Mode. Add a Team Challenge Mode. Add a Time Trial Mode. Add a Descent into Hell/Endless Dungeon Mode. Add Uber Mode. Add PVP Mode. Put these in the same category as Inferno Mode so that people can choose how they want to farm their gear. Get rid of Whimseyshire and add in an area that isn't an insult and outright mock to part of your player-base. Hell add in multiple areas, secrets within secrets.
Make us want to play the damn game. There's your "End Game"
However originally the runes for the abilities were items to put in the sockets of the abilities. Ideas like white rune (random rune type), rune levels, etc were subject to drop rates.
They changed to encourage players ro reach the highest level to discover the "best abilities",
I agreed, they need better items, materials that matter to trade, etc
d3 isn't an mmo so i don't expect it to have content like WoW. i'm guessing a tiny fraction of people have even killed inferno diablo. if you've spent over a hundred hours on d3 at this point then you've already gotten way more out of your $60 than most games give.
d3 doesn't have a subscription fee so any additional content blizzard ads is a bonus compared to just about any other game
until the xpack is ready i'd be happy to see some new optional dungeons and quests along with class and item tweaks. that doesn't seem too impossible.
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It recently dawned on me that with all the posts I've seen about it, no one defines what "End Game" means to them (which is why I put it in quotes, it's never been defined), and what kind of game should have it. I feel this is something that needs to be defined before we can have any productive discussion on Diablo 3's "End Game" content, or lack there of. Hopefully this will allow us to get a better idea of what we're arguing about (if I have a poor understanding of your position, it is unlikely I can effectively argue against it, and it unlikely you can effectively argue for it).
So, please vote, and please elaborate on your opinion (the point is to get the unsaid assumptions out in the open, because I think the various sides are arguing about their beliefs without stating them). As I only spent a few minutes thinking up poll options, please ask if you have another option, I'll try and add it. And please try and keep your answers to questions 1 and 2 separate, as much as possible.
To start off, my opinion:
Question 1)
To me, "End Game" means on going new content, that is both outside the story, and beyond what the "average" (average as in, the average forum goer/serious gamer) player will get to, with a side order of challenge/horde/points modes. So, for D3, it's Inferno. For Borderlands, it was Crawmerax and Moxie's Underdome. For TL, it was that endless random dungeon (that I never bothered with). For Strategy games like Civ or Anno, it's challenge maps that come out periodically. For other games, it's the score attack modes (again, that I don't play). I generally don't include any kind of PvP as end game, because you can (usually) play it while you finish the "main" game. I suppose if I bothered with PvP, it would be the max level only raids that don't advance the story.
A key here is that "End Game" content can be both endless (horde modes), or finite (Inferno).
Question 2)
To me, the only games that NEEDS "End Game" are the games that are getting on going profit from me without directly backing it up. Just because I don't like the idea of letting anyone profit of me without me getting compensated to some extent.
The subs genre is the most obvious, because I don't believe in paying monthly of server access for a single, static, game. In less the server access is balls to the walls awesome, it should really be doing something to compensate me, cause I already probably sunk $60 into the game.
Any game that wants to use overt ads should also probably have something to compensate me. If they're making money selling my eyeballs to companies, I should get that back somehow, whether it's a cheaper game or free content. Possibly I'd be okay with it if the ads are REALLY well integrated, like a NASCAR/Formula 1 racing game where they sold ads on the cars. As long as it didn't slow down the game, I think I'd be okay as it makes it look more like real life). But if it's like Sony's latest patent that involves interrupting games for a commercial, or the really poorly done ad integration like Deus Ex: HR had last year, then they profited off me and took my time. I should get something in return for that.
If it's F2P, it doesn't need it (cause I'm getting the game for free. I haven't given the company money yet, so I can't demand anything from them), but it should probably have it to keep people playing, give me a reason to pay them (awesome skins, newest maps, etc).
As you can probably see, my idea of End Game is to compensate on going profit, where the end game is what I'm paying for. I don't include D3 in this, because I have only paid $60, and the RMAH fee Blizzard gets is for the service of allowing people to make money from a virtual item/circumvent the item grind.
TL;DR:
1) I aim to facilitate end game discussion by clearing up what is end game to you, and when does a game need it.
2) Please Vote. If you don't see an option you want, please ask, I'll try and put it up.
3) Personal Opinion - End game is anything that most people will not complete (like Inferno), that is done after the "game" (post lvl 60 in D3, post lvl 80ish in D2, etc).
4) Personal Opinion - such end game is only mandatory when the company expects me to continue paying them for the end game content.
5) Personal Opinion - The RMAH does not constituent payment with the expectation of ongoing new content, as the payment is for someone else's virtual item, and Blizzard's fee is for the service of allowing me to buy said item, or profit from playing a video game. If the RMAH where me buying directly from Blizzard (as in, they were selling items that weren't a drop for a player), then this would not be true.
I think most of the people that complain about lack of end game content in D3 are those that don't fully realize what kind of game this is. You've paid your $60 and probably have put in 100 or more hours. You have effectively shown that this game is more engrossing then 90% of the crap that most developers come out with nowadays. This is an ARPG. there isn't endgame. there is the item hunt or soon to be PvP. They don't add in things because this type of game doesn't need them.
Although I'm guessing that come possible expansion time I bet they will add in new content. I am curious if they will possibly raise the level cap or something else.
But I can see (although not really understand) that others see the late-Inferno item-hunt as being the endgame. For them, it's pretty much endless (or at least an order of magnitude longer than my endgame), and the AH actually undermines it.
I actually have no experience with the legendary D2 endgame... but it actually sounds breathtakingly dull. I played D2 exclusively solo, and my gear acquisition woes were solved with a fairly straightforward mod
However, a lot of 'D3 Endgame' discussion seems to revolve around whether Blizzard has given us a 400 hour endgame or a 4000 hour endgame... which seems a little spurious given how much value for money either option represents.
Getting to 99 in D2 wasn't end game, it was just a horrible tedious waste of time.
They were banking on item farming to be enough endgame. That would be fine if this were no auction house. However, the auction house essentially killed the "point" of Diablo to begin with. Why farm when you can just buy better gear? Especially since the drop rates were nerfed to make you feel more enticed to visit said auction house. The item hunt itself is bland. All Uniques/Legendaries are boring and or weak. Item "upgrades" are usually a very minor increase to one of your stats, and rarely a large DPS boost, or Armor boost.
D3 has no more character progression. You max out your level before "end game" (Inferno), and you gain nothing that improves your character outside of items. You have no alternate modes, like PvP (coming "Soon"(tm) ), or an "endless dungeon". It has minimum randomization within the game itself, be that in the levels, dungeons, monster varieties, mini-quests...Once you've played through the game 3 times and are playing through it the 4th "end-game" time, you've most likely seen most if not all (and that's only with one character!). It has no character "permanency", so replaying it to level up new toons is limited. 10 characters is all you will need, 5 of each class, female and male, hardcore and softcore, and you are done.
The problem is that Inferno was done as part of the game progression. Ie, you go through Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and then you do the "real game" in Inferno. Thus the beginning 3 playthroughs are boring as sin because you are trying to get through them as fast as possible to get to the "real game". Inferno should have been an aside to the main game, like Challenge Modes or PVP. It should also not have been the only thing to do! As well, make the beginning 3 difficulties actually fun and interesting to play, and offer something to do once you've levelled to max level.
So, You need to improve the core game first. Itemization. Give me something to hunt for. Give me items that are worthwhile. Add resistances/damage types/elemental types back into the game, making items more interesting, as well as giving characters more reasons to choose between items other than DPS. Give me Uniques that are interesting. Give me large varieties in items and socketables to make it interesting to hunt for them. You need more than just 4 gems and they need to do more interesting things in each thing you socket. You need jewels back to give more mods to add to items. You need more varieties of Affixes and Suffixes. You need to increase the drop rates of things that are interesting (uniques/sets). You need to give more ways to improve items, and at the same time you need to remove items from the game in order to encourage hunting. This is due to the auction house, which we know will not be removed.
You need to have some sort of destruction. Why not have it cost an item and a gem to add a socket to another item? Why not have it cost progressively more items and gems in order to add more sockets, up to the max number a specific item can hold? Maybe things like a 2-handed sword can get up to 6 or 8 sockets in it, while one handers can only get 3 (encourage 2-handed usage). Why not make rings and amulets more expensive to stick sockets into?
Why not add a use for white items into crafting? Remember searching for that perfect ethereal item with sockets to throw runes into? Or bring imbuing back. Or how about being able to personalize your items so that you can have "Jaroh's Great Axe of Cleverness" or some such, or let us create a set. There's so much more you can do with items that were done.
You need to add some sort of character personalization and progression back to the game. How about allowing us to "socket" a skill, and by sticking a gem into it, you give that skill some modifiers, like increased radius, or multishot, or lifesteal, or crushing blow, or any number of interesting modifiers that you can attach to gems. Using Jewels, you can get people to add random mods to their skills as well. Changing skills destroys the gem/jewel. Maybe you can gain a socket with experience after reaching level 60? Or using the mystic?
You need to let us get powerful. You need to let us be able to kill waves after waves of demons and make it fun to do so, not kite a couple around for minutes until you finally kill one and then do it again, for the rest of the entire endgame! You need to get rid of 1-shots, at least in the extreme amounts they are using. What do we do with quest rewards once we've reached level 60? Make them interesting and tie them to character development. Give us a way to improve followers, skills, abilities, runes for their skills, what have you.
You need more Randomization. In the overland, you need more varieties of monsters and monster attacks in each area. Maybe a pool of available monsters in each area to choose from, so you never know what you are going to face until you are there. You need more randomness in the overland tiles as well. Make the land larger, with more random blocks in them. Add more offshoots. Remember the "you want people to explore every corner of the map because you never know what you will find?" That kind of feeling.
In dungeons, the same thing, but you also need more randomization to the maps themselves, in the number of map tiles as well as the sizes of the maps, and the "mazeness" of them. You need more variety to the scripted events, so that you don't always face 4 skeletons coming out of the ground here, or 3 skeletons jumping through the window there, or 4 zombie halves coming at you from the trees there, or 3 bats from the holes over there. You need this to be a variety, so that you don't know what or how many to expect, or even if some are bosses or not.
You need more random events for every area of the game. You need more random lines from followers (or else just shut them up!). You need more random numbers of enemies in each group, but overall you need much larger packs, so that you can kill mobs of them. You need more "optional bosses" that are not just "normal" enemies, but unique enemies that aren't part of the main progression. The later acts definitely need "more" everything...
Replayability. You need to make the land progressively larger for each difficulty. You need to add in new areas/monsters/quests in each progressive difficulty. Make the areas larger, more variety, deeper dungeons, more offshoots, more miniquests. You need to kill the story. It is terribly written and we don't want to be forced into it anymore. Or improve it. One of the two. The story needs to be sidelined from the game so that "pressing escape" is not necessary. Add more character choices, whether that be more skills to choose from, or making existing ideas more fleshed out (Melee Wizards and Ranged Barbs for example).
You need to add more modes. Add a Challenge Mode. Add a Team Challenge Mode. Add a Time Trial Mode. Add a Descent into Hell/Endless Dungeon Mode. Add Uber Mode. Add PVP Mode. Put these in the same category as Inferno Mode so that people can choose how they want to farm their gear. Get rid of Whimseyshire and add in an area that isn't an insult and outright mock to part of your player-base. Hell add in multiple areas, secrets within secrets.
Make us want to play the damn game. There's your "End Game"
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/34229-diablo-iii-beta-impressions/page__view__findpost__p__743763
However originally the runes for the abilities were items to put in the sockets of the abilities. Ideas like white rune (random rune type), rune levels, etc were subject to drop rates.
They changed to encourage players ro reach the highest level to discover the "best abilities",
I agreed, they need better items, materials that matter to trade, etc
d3 doesn't have a subscription fee so any additional content blizzard ads is a bonus compared to just about any other game
until the xpack is ready i'd be happy to see some new optional dungeons and quests along with class and item tweaks. that doesn't seem too impossible.