Skill is the difference between someone like Kripparian, who cleared Infeno with a Barbarian geared with ~400k worth of gear, and the people who still can't clear it with millions invested into their Barbarian.
That's basically the simplest explanation. Skilled people can do with less what others can't do with more.
Well, there is also the dedication factor. No, it's not easy to clear inferno HC, but there is a low skill cap in this game. You must be very careful in HC and pick your battles. The guy has also dedicated a ridiculous amount of time to this game and I would never consider that as something to aspire to.
Not to take anything away from him though, he's not an idiot and he planned everything out meticulously.
Only noobs think their skills make a difference. This shouldn't even be discussed on diablofans. Seriously.
Why not?
Because it's an RNG game. That's like saying it took skill for me to win my last game of RISK.
You want skill? Let's see Krip beat me at BF3. (cough, he probably can't).
So what are you saying? Do you think that if you gave exactly the same gear to 100 different Demon Hunter players (say), they would all be able to progress exactly the same amount through the game? Is that *really* what you are saying?
So if you gave 100 Demon Hunters the same exact gear and made them all start in Act 1 Inferno, you want to know what would happen? They would all start working on it, some would immediately get better drops than the others, thus progressing them through content faster. Can a savvy gamer who has played enough games to realize certain shortcuts progress further without as much RNG-help? I think so, but 99% of the time, it's through unscrupulous means.
This is about as silly as a topic as the "ohnoes D3 has no endgame, isnt this wow?!11" threads. This is an Action-RPG hack-n-slash. You run around slaughtering monsters with one hand while crossing your fingers on the other for good loot to drop.
D3 skill breaks down to a few things, for range classes is how well you studder step cast; cast, move, cast, move. which once you have the basics down is effectived more by latency then actual player ability, then its gear and followed by understanding game mechanics / theorycrafting min/max ect.
This measure of skill is a big reason (imo) that d3 dropped the ball on a large scale.
This is about as silly as a topic as the "ohnoes D3 has no endgame, isnt this wow?!11" threads.
Complaining that there is a lack of fun things to do once you clear inferno isn't stupid. Trust me, Blizz wants people playing this game for years. It would help if there were more to do, and that doesn't need to mean more maps and bosses.
Well, I played quite a few games at a very high level.
Diablo3 requires the least amount of skill out of any game I played.
This game is not supposed to be competitive or require skill.
While the skill cap is there, it is so small it is pointless to even talk about it.
^^
This is basically what i was trying to say. As a melee the "skill" you have is moving out or fire or side stepping a projectile(if possible usually not since you're in melee). A horse with no hooves can do this by hopping to the side. The "skill" most people talk about just boils down to how much time you are willing to invest into farming. Even if you don't get upgrades through your farming you just use the money to buy the gear you need.
Also stop talking about RNG. Rng SHOULD not be as big of a deal as it is. My original point was why doesn't player skill shrink the gear gap some? Why are they adding enrage timers to bosses thereby requiring better gear? Why do melee characters require so much more gear then ranged?
This is about as silly as a topic as the "ohnoes D3 has no endgame, isnt this wow?!11" threads.
Complaining that there is a lack of fun things to do once you clear inferno isn't stupid. Trust me, Blizz wants people playing this game for years. It would help if there were more to do, and that doesn't need to mean more maps and bosses.
In D2 sure you beat the game long before lvl 99 but while you were stuck farming bosses for gear you also got slight enjoyment from being able to still grind exp. It didn't add much to the game but more then it currently does for sure.
Also the reason people complain about nothing to do at the end game is because jay wilson said in multiple interviews and videos posted by blizzard that there was a ton more stuff to do. Which pve is a flat lie. While pvp is yet to be determined, but from what they have talked about looks like it's pretty good.
Game requires more knowledge and resources than "skill" if "skill" is defined by "fine motor skills and response time". Period.
I guarantee 99% of D3 players couldn't "Millineum Falcon" the oil refinery towers on Operation Firestorm in Battlefield 3 piloting a jet.
There isn't an amulet you can wear with that. There's practice, and ~2 feet on each side of the jet, where you're locked in a cockpit view (hardcore mode!), and if you bump either side you explode instantly. Ideally, the guy chasing you has to break off or blow up trying to pull a stunt he wasn't planning.
That doesn't mean D3 doens't require skill- it just requires different skills.
Getting headshots is subjectively "harder" than killing champs in any situation though; especially when they're from 900 meters away in a game with bullet drop, projectile speed, and a moving, unpredictable target the size of a grapefruit; there is no resurrection and no second chance- he's there, he's going to start running if the bullet hits nearby, and you're probably going to get two shots off your bolt action at most before he's able to find cover. If you miss, your opportunity is gone forever. You can't remake and this time kill him keeping him from capturing the last flag and winning, that's it, he won, you lost, game is over, next game.
In D3 you're managing a metagame and lots of information. There's a lot of skill in that, more skill than the mechanical function of playing the game. Battlefield 3 for example is the opposite, it isn't cognitive, you need to know that the tank will blow you up, and that as the tank the C4 guy will blow you up, and everybody pretty much has the same knowledge coefficient and the defining trait is who can use 1 bullet to kill the other guy before he can do anything about it.
Game requires more knowledge and resources than "skill" if "skill" is defined by "fine motor skills and response time". Period.
I guarantee 99% of D3 players couldn't "Millineum Falcon" the oil refinery towers on Operation Firestorm in Battlefield 3 piloting a jet.
There isn't an amulet you can wear with that. There's practice, and ~2 feet on each side of the jet, where you're locked in a cockpit view (hardcore mode!), and if you bump either side you explode instantly. Ideally, the guy chasing you has to break off or blow up trying to pull a stunt he wasn't planning.
That doesn't mean D3 doens't require skill- it just requires different skills.
Getting headshots is subjectively "harder" than killing champs in any situation though; especially when they're from 900 meters away in a game with bullet drop, projectile speed, and a moving, unpredictable target the size of a grapefruit; there is no resurrection and no second chance- he's there, he's going to start running if the bullet hits nearby, and you're probably going to get two shots off your bolt action at most before he's able to find cover. If you miss, your opportunity is gone forever. You can't remake and this time kill him keeping him from capturing the last flag and winning, that's it, he won, you lost, game is over, next game.
In D3 you're managing a metagame and lots of information. There's a lot of skill in that, more skill than the mechanical function of playing the game. Battlefield 3 for example is the opposite, it isn't cognitive, you need to know that the tank will blow you up, and that as the tank the C4 guy will blow you up, and everybody pretty much has the same knowledge coefficient and the defining trait is who can use 1 bullet to kill the other guy before he can do anything about it.
I agree with you. Those things you describe do require a lot of skill to get down correctly enough that you can repeat it whenever you need to do it. Though flying a jet sideways between two oil towers may just take a lot of practice instead of skill, since it's a constant thing. You can do it the same way each time, unlike headshotting someone from 900 meters.
I just find it silly when people say there's no skill required, when there is. Sure, there's not a lot needed, but there are situations where a skilled person would come out on top over someone without skill.
And if you have a problem with my signature, you can always ignore it. It's just a placeholder until I can get my image one back in. I ran out of bandwidth for the first time in my life, and I got all those crappy "Bandwidth Reached" replacement images.
In this game, I can roll through act 2 in a coma mashing 1-4 and spamming twisters. If they nerf that, I'll kite with unrelenting storm and hydras, and it'll be even easier because I'll do 40K more damage, just requiring slightly more attention. Keyword being slightly as I can still take 5+ hits. From what I can tell a geared barb basically comes down to "sidestep when they desecrate".
In this game, I can roll through act 2 in a coma mashing 1-4 and spamming twisters. If they nerf that, I'll kite with unrelenting storm and hydras, and it'll be even easier because I'll do 40K more damage, just requiring slightly more attention. Keyword being slightly as I can still take 5+ hits.
I was gonna reply to the rest of your post, but I guess you edited it out.
Anyway, if you can do Act II so easily, why not try Act III if you want to be awake while playing?
From what I can tell a geared barb basically comes down to "sidestep when they desecrate".
Dunno if this was a poke at Barbs or not, but playing a geared Wizard is pretty easy too, as you described above. Everything is easier with better gear.
I've never really seen Diablo 2 & 3 as a game that required any real player skill to edge out, this game is 95% item based 4% skill selection and 1% player skill. Probably WoW is more into player skill especially in PVP.
I've never really seen Diablo 2 & 3 as a game that required any real player skill to edge out, this game is 95% item based 4% skill selection and 1% player skill. Probably WoW is more into player skill especially in PVP.
I wonder how many % numbers are made up on the spot, on the internet? Probably 90%.
People are saying lack of skill and how you are locked into playing a certain way... maybe that's the case because you can't seem to be creative and try something different, If you told someone 2 weeks ago that you were tanking as a DH and clearing act 3, people would laugh and say not possible... but looky here you actually can.
Skill does not just equate to difficulty or how good you are at moving out of things, it also comes out to how you play the game, if you can actually acknowledge adverse builds and make it work when people say it's not possible and it won't get you anywhere that's a subset of skill.
Skill is the difference between someone like Kripparian, who cleared Infeno with a Barbarian geared with ~400k worth of gear, and the people who still can't clear it with millions invested into their Barbarian.
That's basically the simplest explanation. Skilled people can do with less what others can't do with more.
This is good. I watch videos of people explaining how to kite various types of elite packs and how to handle various affix combos. It looks easy, but when I try some of these myself, I find them difficult. Others are easier. Some comes with experience because once you learn how to handle certain situations, they will seem easy after a while.
Stuff like Kripparrian does is nuts. Starting Inferno Belial *after* he enrages? That took a lot of skill and luck with the placement of the poison stuff on the ground. I would have died quickly.
Everyone that can use a mouse and keyboard can kill diablo inferno with sufficient gear. And that is fine too, noone in their right mind bought d3 so they can show off their 1337ness in skill. I know i didn't.
I proposed a thought experiment a while ago in a different thread that was basically boiled down to this: could your parents do it? Assuming they don't play video games themselves, of course. Could your video game-inept parent, given the same gear as you (assuming your gear can get you to and kill Inferno Diablo) do as well as you can?
Let's even modify it a little. Give yourself the best gear you could ever want. How easy would it be to spank Inferno Diablo? Probably incredibly. Now have someone who doesn't play video games try it. Could they do it? Would they keep dying to fireballs, or lightning breath, or cages? If they do keep dying, even though you effectively took gear out of the equation, we can assume that at least a tiny measurable amount of skill is needed.
Now you may be thinking that they had no knowledge of the game at all, and you just plopped them in Inferno. Ok, let's change it a little more. They can play through Normal, with the same class, and gear enough that it's as easy for you to do as Inferno Diablo would be with our hypothetical epic gear. This way they can get a feel for the game on a similar relative difficulty.
Then again, if they can do it, perhaps skill isn't required after all, and gear is all there is to the difficulty. I find that improbable though.
And yes WoW pvp does require a lot more skill than diablo 3, as it is always (at least so far) harder to beat human intelligence than artificial intelligence (esp the crap AI in d3).
That's also comparing PvP to PvE. Once Diablo PvP comes out, much more skill will be needed. PvP always needs more skill than PvE to be successful.
Someone I played WoW with would always say that in PvE you're fighting against something that does the same thing over and over, never adapting to what you do, making it simple to overcome. In PvP you have people learning, and constantly countering you, requiring you to adapt every second to what's going on.
I'm specifically wondering what aspects of D3 make it more player skill based. I quit playing my monk in act 3 inferno (after the inferno nerf) because i was so bored. Bored that i was forced into builds with very little variance to them. For example every single monk inferno build i see requires monks to take 3 of their 4 defensive abilities (they only don't grab the 4th because it's terrible).
I thought this game wasn't going to have a tier armor based system like WoW. Which basically means that you can't kill x boss until your gear matches y status.
To me requiring people to have a certain amount of stats to kill a boss is disheartening. It means there's little room for player skill to make a large difference. Compared to d2 where boss mechanics and player's abilities were the key factor to killing a boss.
p.s. As a side note players were promised more end game content. I honestly feel likes there's less content. I'm not a huge pvp fan so the 1.1 patch is not going to add much for me.
Compared to D2... if you think that the Act bosses in D2 did not have gear requirements, you should probably replay that game.
Designing and testing builds is a skill that most players are lacking. Sure, people can say there is no skill involved when they just come to an internet site to learn what gear, skills, and stats they need. Then proceed to youtube to watch how to progress and how to use those skills, then go play the game.
How many people would be breezing through Inferno without the internet to hand their "skill" to them?
Let's even modify it a little. Give yourself the best gear you could ever want. How easy would it be to spank Inferno Diablo? Probably incredibly. Now have someone who doesn't play video games try it. Could they do it? Would they keep dying to fireballs, or lightning breath, or cages? If they do keep dying, even though you effectively took gear out of the equation, we can assume that at least a tiny measurable amount of skill is needed.
I will let my gf try to kill belial inferno (which i overgear quite a bit) after i explain the fight thoroughly. Maybe i do underestimate the skill (or rather gaming experience) needed for this game.
See, that's another aspect of it that I forgot to cover in my last post: gaming experience. Obviously we aren't both with twitchy fingers and an innate knowledge of cookie-cutter boss fights. A lot of our success, compared to someone who doesn't play video games, comes from prior experience and not skill.
The first time you saw Desecrator go down, you probably thought "Oh, ok. Don't stand in the fire" and moved out of it. Someone less savvy might not even really notice it, or think it was something non-threatening. It's kind of a huge hole in my thought experiment, which is why I added in the whole "do Normal mode to get a feel for things" section.
In my opinion, skillz in diablo 3 is proportional how much real life gold you have in your wallet that you are willing to spent to buy pixels that buff ur character skillz in a virtual environment
blizzard dictates lootz such that you will never get any good rolls on even lvl 63 items, they make the stat range and weapon damage so wide that you will never get a good roll, For instance, lvl 63 1H, the variation is from 200 dps to 1200 dps, the average dps that you will get is like 700 dps, which worth less than 20k on the gold AH
Thus, the quickest way to farm up, gear up and skill up in this game is not to farm inferno act 1-4, the best way is to farm a real life job, get cash, pay those cash to Blizzard so you get to 1 shot stuff with an I-win-button (left mouse click), and then not a single mob in the game can hit you for more than 0 damage lol, working as intended
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Well, there is also the dedication factor. No, it's not easy to clear inferno HC, but there is a low skill cap in this game. You must be very careful in HC and pick your battles. The guy has also dedicated a ridiculous amount of time to this game and I would never consider that as something to aspire to.
Not to take anything away from him though, he's not an idiot and he planned everything out meticulously.
So if you gave 100 Demon Hunters the same exact gear and made them all start in Act 1 Inferno, you want to know what would happen? They would all start working on it, some would immediately get better drops than the others, thus progressing them through content faster. Can a savvy gamer who has played enough games to realize certain shortcuts progress further without as much RNG-help? I think so, but 99% of the time, it's through unscrupulous means.
This is about as silly as a topic as the "ohnoes D3 has no endgame, isnt this wow?!11" threads. This is an Action-RPG hack-n-slash. You run around slaughtering monsters with one hand while crossing your fingers on the other for good loot to drop.
This measure of skill is a big reason (imo) that d3 dropped the ball on a large scale.
Complaining that there is a lack of fun things to do once you clear inferno isn't stupid. Trust me, Blizz wants people playing this game for years. It would help if there were more to do, and that doesn't need to mean more maps and bosses.
^^
This is basically what i was trying to say. As a melee the "skill" you have is moving out or fire or side stepping a projectile(if possible usually not since you're in melee). A horse with no hooves can do this by hopping to the side. The "skill" most people talk about just boils down to how much time you are willing to invest into farming. Even if you don't get upgrades through your farming you just use the money to buy the gear you need.
Also stop talking about RNG. Rng SHOULD not be as big of a deal as it is. My original point was why doesn't player skill shrink the gear gap some? Why are they adding enrage timers to bosses thereby requiring better gear? Why do melee characters require so much more gear then ranged?
In D2 sure you beat the game long before lvl 99 but while you were stuck farming bosses for gear you also got slight enjoyment from being able to still grind exp. It didn't add much to the game but more then it currently does for sure.
Also the reason people complain about nothing to do at the end game is because jay wilson said in multiple interviews and videos posted by blizzard that there was a ton more stuff to do. Which pve is a flat lie. While pvp is yet to be determined, but from what they have talked about looks like it's pretty good.
I guarantee 99% of D3 players couldn't "Millineum Falcon" the oil refinery towers on Operation Firestorm in Battlefield 3 piloting a jet.
There isn't an amulet you can wear with that. There's practice, and ~2 feet on each side of the jet, where you're locked in a cockpit view (hardcore mode!), and if you bump either side you explode instantly. Ideally, the guy chasing you has to break off or blow up trying to pull a stunt he wasn't planning.
That doesn't mean D3 doens't require skill- it just requires different skills.
Getting headshots is subjectively "harder" than killing champs in any situation though; especially when they're from 900 meters away in a game with bullet drop, projectile speed, and a moving, unpredictable target the size of a grapefruit; there is no resurrection and no second chance- he's there, he's going to start running if the bullet hits nearby, and you're probably going to get two shots off your bolt action at most before he's able to find cover. If you miss, your opportunity is gone forever. You can't remake and this time kill him keeping him from capturing the last flag and winning, that's it, he won, you lost, game is over, next game.
In D3 you're managing a metagame and lots of information. There's a lot of skill in that, more skill than the mechanical function of playing the game. Battlefield 3 for example is the opposite, it isn't cognitive, you need to know that the tank will blow you up, and that as the tank the C4 guy will blow you up, and everybody pretty much has the same knowledge coefficient and the defining trait is who can use 1 bullet to kill the other guy before he can do anything about it.
I agree with you. Those things you describe do require a lot of skill to get down correctly enough that you can repeat it whenever you need to do it. Though flying a jet sideways between two oil towers may just take a lot of practice instead of skill, since it's a constant thing. You can do it the same way each time, unlike headshotting someone from 900 meters.
I just find it silly when people say there's no skill required, when there is. Sure, there's not a lot needed, but there are situations where a skilled person would come out on top over someone without skill.
And if you have a problem with my signature, you can always ignore it. It's just a placeholder until I can get my image one back in. I ran out of bandwidth for the first time in my life, and I got all those crappy "Bandwidth Reached" replacement images.
Anyway, if you can do Act II so easily, why not try Act III if you want to be awake while playing?
Dunno if this was a poke at Barbs or not, but playing a geared Wizard is pretty easy too, as you described above. Everything is easier with better gear.
I wonder how many % numbers are made up on the spot, on the internet? Probably 90%.
Skill does not just equate to difficulty or how good you are at moving out of things, it also comes out to how you play the game, if you can actually acknowledge adverse builds and make it work when people say it's not possible and it won't get you anywhere that's a subset of skill.
This is good. I watch videos of people explaining how to kite various types of elite packs and how to handle various affix combos. It looks easy, but when I try some of these myself, I find them difficult. Others are easier. Some comes with experience because once you learn how to handle certain situations, they will seem easy after a while.
Stuff like Kripparrian does is nuts. Starting Inferno Belial *after* he enrages? That took a lot of skill and luck with the placement of the poison stuff on the ground. I would have died quickly.
Let's even modify it a little. Give yourself the best gear you could ever want. How easy would it be to spank Inferno Diablo? Probably incredibly. Now have someone who doesn't play video games try it. Could they do it? Would they keep dying to fireballs, or lightning breath, or cages? If they do keep dying, even though you effectively took gear out of the equation, we can assume that at least a tiny measurable amount of skill is needed.
Now you may be thinking that they had no knowledge of the game at all, and you just plopped them in Inferno. Ok, let's change it a little more. They can play through Normal, with the same class, and gear enough that it's as easy for you to do as Inferno Diablo would be with our hypothetical epic gear. This way they can get a feel for the game on a similar relative difficulty.
Then again, if they can do it, perhaps skill isn't required after all, and gear is all there is to the difficulty. I find that improbable though.
Think about it.
That's also comparing PvP to PvE. Once Diablo PvP comes out, much more skill will be needed. PvP always needs more skill than PvE to be successful.
Someone I played WoW with would always say that in PvE you're fighting against something that does the same thing over and over, never adapting to what you do, making it simple to overcome. In PvP you have people learning, and constantly countering you, requiring you to adapt every second to what's going on.
Compared to D2... if you think that the Act bosses in D2 did not have gear requirements, you should probably replay that game.
How many people would be breezing through Inferno without the internet to hand their "skill" to them?
The first time you saw Desecrator go down, you probably thought "Oh, ok. Don't stand in the fire" and moved out of it. Someone less savvy might not even really notice it, or think it was something non-threatening. It's kind of a huge hole in my thought experiment, which is why I added in the whole "do Normal mode to get a feel for things" section.
blizzard dictates lootz such that you will never get any good rolls on even lvl 63 items, they make the stat range and weapon damage so wide that you will never get a good roll, For instance, lvl 63 1H, the variation is from 200 dps to 1200 dps, the average dps that you will get is like 700 dps, which worth less than 20k on the gold AH
Thus, the quickest way to farm up, gear up and skill up in this game is not to farm inferno act 1-4, the best way is to farm a real life job, get cash, pay those cash to Blizzard so you get to 1 shot stuff with an I-win-button (left mouse click), and then not a single mob in the game can hit you for more than 0 damage lol, working as intended