So I have been running in to an issue while trying to play alts. I leveled up a Wizard to 60, progressed to Act 3 inferno through a lot of farming and working up a decent bankroll. A few weeks ago I began to get bored and decided to try leveling an alt (this time a Barbarian.)
I progressed through Normal without much difficulty (as expected) but ran in to the eagerly awaited jump in difficulty once I got to Nightmare. Being a gamer and wanting to improve my character, naturally I went to the Auction House. There I was presented with such an incredible selection of low priced gear that purchasing just TWO weapons with reduced level requirement was enough of a boost to make Nightmare BORINGLY easy once again, just the same way Normal was before it.
Fine, okay. Now I just have to push through to Hell where a real challenge will start. Sadly, once again, I found myself making a single item purchase (this time a level 62 one-hander) that made Hell laughably easy for a very low price. Talk about a first world problem! The modest bankroll from my Inferno progressed Wizard was making my Barbarian playthrough a boring, easy, repetitive cycle of buying a cheap but awesome weapon and then smashing through an entire difficulty without any challenge whatsoever.
So my question is: Does the existence of an Auction House ruin replayability, specifically for alt characters after your Inferno progression? I'm curious if other people ran in to this same problem as I have.
In particular I want to point out the "Reduced Level Requirement" stat that makes AH-gear unreasonably good for low level characters. Right now my level 52 Barb is using a level 62 one hander. Does that seem reasonable? How would you feel about removing Reduced Lvl Req alltogether?
Now before you use the argument of "Well just don't use the Auction House" let me address that real quick. The AH is built in to the game. It is part of the game. Sure, I can make the choice whether to use it or not, but it's not like I am choosing to go to a third party site and buy new gear. The AH button is right below the button I push to start playing! It's practically unavoidable! And as a gamer, I am going to use all in-game resources available to play as well as possible. So for me, choosing to just "not use the AH" is putting up an artificial barrier in front of myself that isn't any different than saying "don't use a follower" or "stop using two skill slots." The competitive GAMER in me doesn't enjoy putting artificial constraints on myself to make the game more difficult. I want to be pushed to my limits as a gamer, not limit myself.
Anyways, this has been on my mind recently as I find myself losing the will to play, and I wondered what you guys thought about the subject. My thoughts are further expanded upon in this commentary, which I hope you'll listen to:
Now before you use the argument of "Well just don't use the Auction House" let me address that real quick. The AH is built in to the game. It is part of the game. Sure, I can make the choice whether to use it or not, but it's not like I am choosing to go to a third party site and buy new gear. The AH button is right below the button I push to start playing! It's practically unavoidable! And as a gamer, I am going to use all in-game resources available to play as well as possible. So for me, choosing to just "not use the AH" is putting up an artificial barrier in front of myself that isn't any different than saying "don't use a follower" or "stop using two skill slots." The competitive GAMER in me doesn't enjoy putting artificial constraints on myself to make the game more difficult. I want to be pushed to my limits as a gamer, not limit myself.
I don't quite agree here. Just because something is there doesn't mean you have to use it and I think if some is really a hardcore gamer they will avoid what makes it 'too easy'. For example, if you pick up a game that's a pure action game. The game will let you play through the whole thing on 'easy'. The game also lets you choose 'ultra hard' but doesn't offer any bonuses for doing so. As a hardcore gamer, which do you choose? Those are built into the game just like the D3 Auction House.
I think it comes down to choosing what will be a good mix of less frustration but still being a challenge. If you wish to challenge yourself further, you go on the hardest settings. If you want a challenge but still want to 'progress' (maybe you're not quite good enough yet) you pick a middle of the road difficulty. If you just want the story, you play easy.
This exact issue of things getting too easy is why I find and make all my gear when I play through as an alt. It makes things a little harder and it makes the game more interesting. If I don't use the Auction House then I still have items I can find in the world. If I DO use the AH then I'm killing things too easily and there's no reason for me to explore as all I want to do is level up fast to get to the end. I don't find that fun at all.
I think you might be looking at things from the wrong side here, you state you want to push your limits, but then you put up a barrier in front of yourself unknowingly. You bought stuff that made the game easier, therefore you bought a lower difficulty setting instead of picking the hard one you wanted. You just limited your potential without realizing. Being hardcore isn't about buying the best gear and killing everything around you, it's about taking what you have and being better at using it than everyone else.
Honestly gamers challenge themselves all the time to make themselves better. That's why you see ironman challenges in WoW and here in D3. You also see "no death" runs in action platforming games. You see putting an artificial barrier in front of yourself as a bad thing, but many players LIKE doing just that. If you don't challenge yourself then you can't improve. This is the same reason why some games have unlockable items that can hinder a character (make you have less health or do lower damage) because challenging yourself can be fun and can force you to get better at the game you're playing. It's obviously not for everyone, but it's there as a choice. Those who want to have it easy can, those who don't.. won't.
I personally find myself somewhere in the middle. I like a good challenge, but I know I'm not good enough for alot of the super hardcore challenges and difficulty modes in some games. Personally I never challenged Master Ninja Mode in Ninja Gaiden, I just die too easily So I avoid the AH until about inferno, then I find things even out a bit more. Even then I buy sparingly and try different builds to see what I can get away with.
Well those are my $0.02. I think you have a good write up here and it's going to be an interesting debate from both sides of the floor. Thumbs up, old chap. (b^.^)b :Thumbs Up:
All right, I'll admit that part of my problem is a personal problem. Yup, I'm overly competitive. When faced with a challenge I turn to making my character better using the AH, and I expect (and prefer) the game to challenge me rather than me challenge myself. I SHOULD just avoid the AH, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Blizzard's design is being screwed by infinite cheap stupidly powerful gear.
My main issue that is being overshadowed by my personal faults is that the reduced level requirement modifier is WAY WAY WAY too strong. I can buy a single piece of gear on the AH that is 18 levels above my character, and it will make every mob feel laughably, stupidly, mind numbingly easy, even on Hell difficulty. Unless Blizzard intended for NM and Hell to only be difficult for first playthroughs (which I doubt) the prevalence of cheap RLR gear is screwing their design.
A rich player will always be able to upgrade his character to a point of overpoweredness, but I'm more concerned with the scope of the issue: how CHEAP it is, and how POWERFUL those items can be. Right now with the purchase of a single item costing less than 100k, Act 1 Hell feels no different than Act 1 Normal. To me this represents a design flaw in the game that players shouldn't have to self-compensate for.
sounds to me like they need a super inferno mode if ppl are still complaining about the game being too easy, act 1 SUPER INFERNO, where every monster is level 300
and if you kill a million of these guys you get to character level 61
I don't quite agree here. Just because something is there doesn't mean you have to use it and I think if some is really a hardcore gamer they will avoid what makes it 'too easy'. For example, if you pick up a game that's a pure action game. The game will let you play through the whole thing on 'easy'. The game also lets you choose 'ultra hard' but doesn't offer any bonuses for doing so. As a hardcore gamer, which do you choose? Those are built into the game just like the D3 Auction House.
I don't think choosing a difficulty is the same kind of self imposed restriction.
Here's my take on playing ANY game:
1) The player sees the rules to the game
2) The player agrees to follow them.
3) Under the constraints of the rules every player can then use any methods possible to win or succeed. That's what makes it a game. The challenge comes from figuring out what you can do AFTER the rules have been set.
Choosing a difficulty is the action of seeing the rules and agreeing to follow them. You choose the difficulty before the game starts, right? Luckily, video games can enforce rules absolutely (besides exploits and hacks) without either 1) self enforcement from players or 2) referees.
What I personally don't enjoy (again, a personal problem) is agreeing to the rules, playing my best, and coming up with an experience that is mind numbingly easy from lvl 1-60. I'm not particularly rich or skilled, but because of the rules (looking at you RLR) it has become far too simple. RLR is just way too strong.
Now before you use the argument of "Well just don't use the Auction House" let me address that real quick.The competitive GAMER in me doesn't enjoy putting artificial constraints on myself to make the game more difficult. I want to be pushed to my limits as a gamer, not limit myself.
Your whole post reads as " I don't like the AH, what say we remove it."
The argument is *ENTIRELY* valid. The game wasn't meant for your specific minority of players, but a wide range of players. If you were a "competitive gamer", you would be well aware that artificial, self-imposed constructs are the most common way to challenge oneself. Putting it back on Blizzard because. once again, someone feels entitled to have *exactly* the game they wanted, as opposed to the one in the box, is silly.
A rich player will always be able to upgrade his character to a point of overpoweredness, but I'm more concerned with the scope of the issue: how CHEAP it is, and how POWERFUL those items can be. Right now with the purchase of a single item costing less than 100k, Act 1 Hell feels no different than Act 1 Normal. To me this represents a design flaw in the game that players shouldn't have to self-compensate for.
I think the problem here still hinges on the community and it's use of the AH and not really the AH itself. The community decided the price of those items. People sell it for a low price because that's either all they can get for them or they just want to offload it. I suppose the best allusion I could make here would be what's the difference of someone handing you a super powerful item (for minimal payback on your part) and having them come into your game and say "here, I'll just oneshot these bosses for you, you just enjoy the rewards".
Because there are so many options available, the whole game is pretty much based on a players individual choice and the barriers they want to put on themselves. It's also what lets players bring to the game unorthodox builds. If I wanted to make a thorns based barbarian, I don't have to wait out the gear, I can hit the AH and see if it works.
I guess, at the end of the day, the ultimate issue is the game is co-op, you're online all the time, and thus you can't just make a single character who's locked out of the AH. But because of that, the onus is on the player to decide how to interact with that community and decide, do you want the community's help to beat the game or do you want to do it on your own?
So, it sounds like in the end, the AH ruins replayability (at least the leveling part) of the game. For YOU. If you are unable to bring yourself to not use the AH to gain super powered weapons, then it does.
BUT, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the game.
The AH doesn't ruin the game, far from it. I think it's a great idea, especially considering how the primitive and unreliable user-perpetuated economy of D2 got out of hand. It's great that gold has value again, but the problem I have is that the best items have no real gold value, as the 2 billion gold cap is simply not enough incentive when you can sell the same objects for an obscene amount of actual cash in the RMAH.
I'd like for them to not quite blatantly push players to employ the RMAH, but it's virtually impossible when there's people very clearly willing to spend $250 on a whim. That's not to say you can't get some really nice gear in the GAH, but unless you have the outrageously stuffed coffers of millions/patience to scour the GAH's endless pages of awkwardly unsortable items for steals, you'll find yourself pumping items through the RMAH in the desperate hope to get the real ubergear to then in turn make your real money back.
If you're one of the mega-farmers who's decided to remain loyal to the GAH, then you're buying and selling at the maximum gold allotments consistently, and often spending countless millions simply to gain +4 vitality on your shoulders, or a sword that gives you +50 dps. Tiny increments to push your gear over the edge require prohibitive amounts of gold that are incomprehensible to acquire for the average player, and with the potential for gold to be sold in the RMAH, the inflation/worthlessness of gold is going to go unchecked, which is exactly what blizzard wants. The item disparity will further increase as the auction houses quality of gear polarizes, and ultimately the GAH will be relegated to new or leveling players with modest 3rd-tier items, lvl 55-63 tier 1 items will be jockied in the RMAH, as blizzard swims in their vaults of money Scrooge McDuck style.
TL;DR version: Good idea initially, RMAH is slimy, eventually both AH's will be absurd, Blizzard profits obscenely = ultimate goal.
On one hand, introducing reduce level requirement on all items, reduces the work load for Blizzard, and pleases players who want to feel that they 'break' the game.
On the other hand, this renders low level legendaries in worse shape than they could have been. Limit the fun even futher.
I couldn't think of a solution other than switching the goal. I would aim to get the best helm with highest crit and stats with socket, or a 1 hander with 900 life on hit and perfect stats with socket.
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I progressed through Normal without much difficulty (as expected) but ran in to the eagerly awaited jump in difficulty once I got to Nightmare. Being a gamer and wanting to improve my character, naturally I went to the Auction House. There I was presented with such an incredible selection of low priced gear that purchasing just TWO weapons with reduced level requirement was enough of a boost to make Nightmare BORINGLY easy once again, just the same way Normal was before it.
Fine, okay. Now I just have to push through to Hell where a real challenge will start. Sadly, once again, I found myself making a single item purchase (this time a level 62 one-hander) that made Hell laughably easy for a very low price. Talk about a first world problem! The modest bankroll from my Inferno progressed Wizard was making my Barbarian playthrough a boring, easy, repetitive cycle of buying a cheap but awesome weapon and then smashing through an entire difficulty without any challenge whatsoever.
So my question is: Does the existence of an Auction House ruin replayability, specifically for alt characters after your Inferno progression? I'm curious if other people ran in to this same problem as I have.
In particular I want to point out the "Reduced Level Requirement" stat that makes AH-gear unreasonably good for low level characters. Right now my level 52 Barb is using a level 62 one hander. Does that seem reasonable? How would you feel about removing Reduced Lvl Req alltogether?
Now before you use the argument of "Well just don't use the Auction House" let me address that real quick. The AH is built in to the game. It is part of the game. Sure, I can make the choice whether to use it or not, but it's not like I am choosing to go to a third party site and buy new gear. The AH button is right below the button I push to start playing! It's practically unavoidable! And as a gamer, I am going to use all in-game resources available to play as well as possible. So for me, choosing to just "not use the AH" is putting up an artificial barrier in front of myself that isn't any different than saying "don't use a follower" or "stop using two skill slots." The competitive GAMER in me doesn't enjoy putting artificial constraints on myself to make the game more difficult. I want to be pushed to my limits as a gamer, not limit myself.
Anyways, this has been on my mind recently as I find myself losing the will to play, and I wondered what you guys thought about the subject. My thoughts are further expanded upon in this commentary, which I hope you'll listen to:
I think it comes down to choosing what will be a good mix of less frustration but still being a challenge. If you wish to challenge yourself further, you go on the hardest settings. If you want a challenge but still want to 'progress' (maybe you're not quite good enough yet) you pick a middle of the road difficulty. If you just want the story, you play easy.
This exact issue of things getting too easy is why I find and make all my gear when I play through as an alt. It makes things a little harder and it makes the game more interesting. If I don't use the Auction House then I still have items I can find in the world. If I DO use the AH then I'm killing things too easily and there's no reason for me to explore as all I want to do is level up fast to get to the end. I don't find that fun at all.
I think you might be looking at things from the wrong side here, you state you want to push your limits, but then you put up a barrier in front of yourself unknowingly. You bought stuff that made the game easier, therefore you bought a lower difficulty setting instead of picking the hard one you wanted. You just limited your potential without realizing. Being hardcore isn't about buying the best gear and killing everything around you, it's about taking what you have and being better at using it than everyone else.
Honestly gamers challenge themselves all the time to make themselves better. That's why you see ironman challenges in WoW and here in D3. You also see "no death" runs in action platforming games. You see putting an artificial barrier in front of yourself as a bad thing, but many players LIKE doing just that. If you don't challenge yourself then you can't improve. This is the same reason why some games have unlockable items that can hinder a character (make you have less health or do lower damage) because challenging yourself can be fun and can force you to get better at the game you're playing. It's obviously not for everyone, but it's there as a choice. Those who want to have it easy can, those who don't.. won't.
I personally find myself somewhere in the middle. I like a good challenge, but I know I'm not good enough for alot of the super hardcore challenges and difficulty modes in some games. Personally I never challenged Master Ninja Mode in Ninja Gaiden, I just die too easily So I avoid the AH until about inferno, then I find things even out a bit more. Even then I buy sparingly and try different builds to see what I can get away with.
Well those are my $0.02. I think you have a good write up here and it's going to be an interesting debate from both sides of the floor. Thumbs up, old chap. (b^.^)b :Thumbs Up:
My main issue that is being overshadowed by my personal faults is that the reduced level requirement modifier is WAY WAY WAY too strong. I can buy a single piece of gear on the AH that is 18 levels above my character, and it will make every mob feel laughably, stupidly, mind numbingly easy, even on Hell difficulty. Unless Blizzard intended for NM and Hell to only be difficult for first playthroughs (which I doubt) the prevalence of cheap RLR gear is screwing their design.
A rich player will always be able to upgrade his character to a point of overpoweredness, but I'm more concerned with the scope of the issue: how CHEAP it is, and how POWERFUL those items can be. Right now with the purchase of a single item costing less than 100k, Act 1 Hell feels no different than Act 1 Normal. To me this represents a design flaw in the game that players shouldn't have to self-compensate for.
and if you kill a million of these guys you get to character level 61
Here's my take on playing ANY game:
1) The player sees the rules to the game
2) The player agrees to follow them.
3) Under the constraints of the rules every player can then use any methods possible to win or succeed. That's what makes it a game. The challenge comes from figuring out what you can do AFTER the rules have been set.
Choosing a difficulty is the action of seeing the rules and agreeing to follow them. You choose the difficulty before the game starts, right? Luckily, video games can enforce rules absolutely (besides exploits and hacks) without either 1) self enforcement from players or 2) referees.
What I personally don't enjoy (again, a personal problem) is agreeing to the rules, playing my best, and coming up with an experience that is mind numbingly easy from lvl 1-60. I'm not particularly rich or skilled, but because of the rules (looking at you RLR) it has become far too simple. RLR is just way too strong.
Your whole post reads as " I don't like the AH, what say we remove it."
The argument is *ENTIRELY* valid. The game wasn't meant for your specific minority of players, but a wide range of players. If you were a "competitive gamer", you would be well aware that artificial, self-imposed constructs are the most common way to challenge oneself. Putting it back on Blizzard because. once again, someone feels entitled to have *exactly* the game they wanted, as opposed to the one in the box, is silly.
I think the problem here still hinges on the community and it's use of the AH and not really the AH itself. The community decided the price of those items. People sell it for a low price because that's either all they can get for them or they just want to offload it. I suppose the best allusion I could make here would be what's the difference of someone handing you a super powerful item (for minimal payback on your part) and having them come into your game and say "here, I'll just oneshot these bosses for you, you just enjoy the rewards".
Because there are so many options available, the whole game is pretty much based on a players individual choice and the barriers they want to put on themselves. It's also what lets players bring to the game unorthodox builds. If I wanted to make a thorns based barbarian, I don't have to wait out the gear, I can hit the AH and see if it works.
I guess, at the end of the day, the ultimate issue is the game is co-op, you're online all the time, and thus you can't just make a single character who's locked out of the AH. But because of that, the onus is on the player to decide how to interact with that community and decide, do you want the community's help to beat the game or do you want to do it on your own?
Only if you let it.
BUT, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the game.
also im not sure how you expect to gain any sympathy when you clearly lack self control
I'd like for them to not quite blatantly push players to employ the RMAH, but it's virtually impossible when there's people very clearly willing to spend $250 on a whim. That's not to say you can't get some really nice gear in the GAH, but unless you have the outrageously stuffed coffers of millions/patience to scour the GAH's endless pages of awkwardly unsortable items for steals, you'll find yourself pumping items through the RMAH in the desperate hope to get the real ubergear to then in turn make your real money back.
If you're one of the mega-farmers who's decided to remain loyal to the GAH, then you're buying and selling at the maximum gold allotments consistently, and often spending countless millions simply to gain +4 vitality on your shoulders, or a sword that gives you +50 dps. Tiny increments to push your gear over the edge require prohibitive amounts of gold that are incomprehensible to acquire for the average player, and with the potential for gold to be sold in the RMAH, the inflation/worthlessness of gold is going to go unchecked, which is exactly what blizzard wants. The item disparity will further increase as the auction houses quality of gear polarizes, and ultimately the GAH will be relegated to new or leveling players with modest 3rd-tier items, lvl 55-63 tier 1 items will be jockied in the RMAH, as blizzard swims in their vaults of money Scrooge McDuck style.
TL;DR version: Good idea initially, RMAH is slimy, eventually both AH's will be absurd, Blizzard profits obscenely = ultimate goal.
On one hand, introducing reduce level requirement on all items, reduces the work load for Blizzard, and pleases players who want to feel that they 'break' the game.
On the other hand, this renders low level legendaries in worse shape than they could have been. Limit the fun even futher.
I couldn't think of a solution other than switching the goal. I would aim to get the best helm with highest crit and stats with socket, or a 1 hander with 900 life on hit and perfect stats with socket.