Posting this here as well as Blizz main site for more conversation.
This post is part community feedback on my behalf and part request for opinion from the rest of the community and/or Blizz team.
The question is in the subject header. I ask it as someone who has played the game through killing Inferno Butcher (end of Act I) without either buying or selling a single item on auction house and then hitting an absolute brick wall going into Act II. I can hardly get out of the city and any elite pack will stomp me.
This indicates that I should go back to Act I and do repetitive 5-stack Nephalem valor runs -- which I have. I started with Jondar/Skeleton king runs until I got the gear to push past Butcher soft-enrage (needed over 10k dps) and now I'm doing Warden/Butcher runs. I can zoom through those in 30-40 minutes and have done many -- I'm over 100 hours played on my Monk now -- much of that on Hell Act IV and Inferno Act I farming. I've gotten to the point where I beat the Butcher in more magic find gear to up my chances (around 157% magic find with 5-stack buff now) but I still get a gaggle of lvl 55-59 items, the occasional lvl 60 and not much more to progress.
The best equipment setup I have acquired after these hours to step into Act II right now puts me at 357 resists, 7k armor with buff, and 11.3k dps (551 dps 1-hander is best I've been able to find). Again, as the first bit of Act II demonstrates to me -- this is clearly insufficient to progress.
I have also spent many resources on leveling JC and BS to 10 and crafting so that I have access to best gems and Exalted equipment. Without question, I have spent millions on crafting gems and gear. Without question, that same money could've gone to AH and bought me the gear to progress into Act II.
That said, I looked at this game from a perspective of AH was put in to facilitate trading and make sure that people did not get scammed / hacked or otherwise by going to 3rd party sites to get items. If the game is about the item hunt, how is farming gold just to buy the items an item hunt? On the flip side, if the game is set to allow progression without AH, should lvl 55-59 items be dropping with a 5-stack, 157% magic find setup on Act I Inferno Butcher?
There is enough randomness of affixes, stats of true lvl 60 equip that it would take many runs to get gear to progress -- but making many of the drops lower iLVL and then setting the bar so high for Act II gear requirements -- well it appears to me that I could well be at 200 hours played and still farming the equip to progress. I know it's a balancing act to set drop percentages so that it feels like something special when you find an upgrade yet still allow for progression at a reasonable rate but right now from my experience, I feel it may be skewed too far toward the rarity of upgrade side of the spectrum.
Am I supposed to just bite the bullet and go easy mode farm gold and buy the specific item I want from AH - an item that was likely found in content I can't currently experience myself. That just doesn't seem as intended to me -- I want the fun of FINDING the item, not BUYING the item. Right now, however, the odds seemed stacked against me. I'm not even sure if the items I need to progress can be found in Act I -- or at least are not so rare I find that I won't spend 100s of hours to get them.
Blizz, is this as intended? Community, what are your thoughts -- go easy mode and buy the gear or wait / hope for a change?
Could be - right now it just feels like the game is balanced to where the fastest, most efficient path to gear is gold and AH and not true gear farming. I'm not sure that is as intended but maybe it is and I just need to reset my expectations.
Embros, you pose an interesting question. It does seem like use of the AH is required to keep progressing. That said, it's not the intent. If we look back at the previous incarnations of the game, we see that they are based on gear grind. From my personal experience in Diablo 2, I wasn't able to solo Hell Diablo or Baal without a great deal of time spent farming. It took me months to acquire the runes I needed to put my hammer pally together. It took even longer to get the +1 combat skills grand charms to make him potent (17k per hammer at his max). Granted, this is my experience and others may have been able to do it faster or slower than I did.
As for your second post, regarded the most efficient way to clear the game. At this point, I think you are right. If you are looking to go through the game without the constant gear grinding, the AH is the way to go. To me, what that comes down to is play style. If you are the kind of player who wants to progress quickly and linearly, then the AH is currently the more efficient way. If you are the kind of player that enjoys grinding the same (but more difficult) content to find your gear, then efficiency isn't something you are too worried about.
In the end, I think Blizzard stuck with the same gearing model as Diablo 2 (and potentially diablo 1) thus intending for people to grind lots and lots to get the gear to progress.So, it will come down to the playstyle of each individual. Essentially, what they want out of the game.
I also think that the idea of efficiency via AH is a result of Inferno being as difficult as it is.(Not that its difficulty is a bad thing in my mind)
Bashiok stated openly that drop rates were adjusted with the AH in mind. By that, we means that everybody is expected to get 99% trash so the economy isn't overflowed with items. You'll sell rare items on the AH and so will others, and your only reliable means of getting item will be the AH.
The game was DESIGNED that way. I hate it, but its the truth. If you don't use the AH, you're not expected to get anywhere. Anybody can grind for a few months and you'll eventually do it, but who the hell wants that? I don't play Diablo to grind, believe it or not. The AH ruins the game and god am I sick of grinding-based games, this is worse than a Korean MMO.
Bashiok stated openly that drop rates were adjusted with the AH in mind. By that, we means that everybody is expected to get 99% trash so the economy isn't overflowed with items. You'll sell rare items on the AH and so will others, and your only reliable means of getting item will be the AH.
The game was DESIGNED that way. I hate it, but its the truth. If you don't use the AH, you're not expected to get anywhere. Anybody can grind for a few months and you'll eventually do it, but who the hell wants that? I don't play Diablo to grind, believe it or not. The AH ruins the game and god am I sick of grinding-based games, this is worse than a Korean MMO.
And gear MAGICALLY appears on the AH right? Cause people out there aren't finding gear and posting it. Cause it's impossible to find good gear right?
Bolded the really funny part of your post. All Diablo IS and ever HAS been is item grinding.
No. Even if I a million addicted fools that ran Diablo 2 boss runs for a decade would tell me that, I'd believe none. If thats all you've ever seen, I'm really quite sad for you.
And gear MAGICALLY appears on the AH right? Cause people out there aren't finding gear and posting it. Cause it's impossible to find good gear right?
Bolded the really funny part of your post. All Diablo IS and ever HAS been is item grinding.
No. Even if I a million addicted fools that ran Diablo 2 boss runs for a decade would tell me that, I'd believe none. If thats all you've ever seen, I'm really quite sad for you.
Who said anything about boss runs? In a game where the only thing to do is get better gear and gear drops randomly, it's kinda hard to NOT be a grinding game.
How did the first people get the Inferno gear to put on the AH? If they can do it, other people must be able to as well... Perhaps the drop rate is extremely low though.
I think something that will help is if they buff the items you can make at the blacksmith. I think they are doing something like that in a future patch.
You could also avoid the AH and use the /trade channel to get stuff, if you want to make it more like D2.
The items on the AH people buy to progress are from acts/difficulties higher than people buying the equipment can play at.
Based on Bashiok's post where they are throttling / setting drop rates assuming the use of AH, it basically appears it is built so that you have to use the bandwidth of the millions to get the gear needed to progress. I can''t say I like the feel of that but I do want to see the rest of Inferno so I may start going with the flow.
Based on Bashiok's post where they are throttling / setting drop rates assuming the use of AH, it basically appears it is built so that you have to use the bandwidth of the millions to get the gear needed to progress. I can''t say I like the feel of that but I do want to see the rest of Inferno so I may start going with the flow.
It's still not REQUIRED. It's simply the fastest way, which is probably always going to be the case with an AH.
In fact, it was the fastest way in D2, only you used trading instead of buying gold.
And gear MAGICALLY appears on the AH right? Cause people out there aren't finding gear and posting it. Cause it's impossible to find good gear right?
Bolded the really funny part of your post. All Diablo IS and ever HAS been is item grinding.
No. Even if I a million addicted fools that ran Diablo 2 boss runs for a decade would tell me that, I'd believe none. If thats all you've ever seen, I'm really quite sad for you.
May I ask, then, what was the point of Diablo 2, if not item griding? Was it exp grinding? Blowing up monsters? Screwing around in the world? Advancing your quest level? PvPing?
Because only one of those aren't in D3, and PvP will be shortly. Also, didn't you have to item grind for PvP?
How did the first people get the Inferno gear to put on the AH?
I know a lot, and I mean a LOT of people who got all of their high-end items from exploits. Using the glitch to jump foward and farm Inferno Aspect of Terror, and abusing the Tyrael mechanic to kill Izual. Loading up on Magic Find and corpse walking to Resplendent Chests / Unicorn Clouds etc.
There is something wrong with the game when a dude who doesn't even have an Inferno Butcher kill is farming Act 4 for blues that are better than most Act 3 rare weapons. I literally watched a guy I play with do this.
Even before the "World First" Belial kill the auction house was already flooded with Act 4 blues, and occasional rares.
EDIT: And if you really need to ask how, recall that Athene was halfway through Act 3 of Inferno mode before Blizzard decided that allowing Monks to be completely invulnerable to all damage was a bad idea. It was several more days before they nerfed wizards, demon hunters, and boon of protection.
No, it's not required to progress. Only required by *you* if you can't wait for the item.
How long are we suppose to wait, bro? I've got over 100 hours of farm time in Inferno mode and I still haven't looted a single item that I would personally equip, let alone that would sell for more than 25K in the Auction House. That is basically 100 hours of solid farm time for no good item.
Sure with millions of people sharing the same auction house, and mathematical probability, you can and will find affordable upgrades in the Auction House, but around Act 3 most melees are going to hit a brick wall when most "upgrades" cost 5 million gold, and farming Act 1 or 2 for hours on end only provides 300-500K gold. RMAH should become very successful due to this, and I can't imagine why Blizzard would want to fix melees, or loot system before the RMAH is released.
Know what i did back in Diablo 2? As soon as i hit Hell, i was getting stomped. What i did? Farm what i could in end NM, then with an inventory full of stuff that dropped, i would spend the next day and a half in trade games.
Wug?
Wuw?
nothx
Next guy.
Wug?
Wuw?
...
So yeah, It wasnt different in D2. The AH just makes everything so much easier to deal with. You just post your shit for millions to see, instead of showing it to everyone individually, and you get to see gear from millions instead of asking everyone individually what they have.
How did the first people get the Inferno gear to put on the AH? If they can do it, other people must be able to as well... Perhaps the drop rate is extremely low though.
I think something that will help is if they buff the items you can make at the blacksmith. I think they are doing something like that in a future patch.
You could also avoid the AH and use the /trade channel to get stuff, if you want to make it more like D2.
The items on the AH people buy to progress are from acts/difficulties higher than people buying the equipment can play at.
You miss the point.
HOW did those items from the higher-level acts get into the AH, if you need to buy them from the AH in order to get to the acts in which they drop? Do you not see the issue?
I already answered this question. Players were farming Act 4 Aspect of Terror, and Izual before Method got "world first" kill of Butcher. Players who are not even on Act 4 (myself included), still farm Aspect of Terror and second mini-boss because the items he drops are really, really good. I got an 1100 DPS 1-hand cross bow off of him before I even had my first Inferno Belial kill.
Secondly, and probably more importantly, the first week or so the game was out, several classes had game breaking mechanics, all of which have since been nerfed. Athene was literally halfway through Act 3 on Inferno mode before Monks got invulnerability was nerfed.
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D3Progress: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/emberos-1608/Emberos/51824579
D3Progress: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/emberos-1608/Emberos/51824579
As for your second post, regarded the most efficient way to clear the game. At this point, I think you are right. If you are looking to go through the game without the constant gear grinding, the AH is the way to go. To me, what that comes down to is play style. If you are the kind of player who wants to progress quickly and linearly, then the AH is currently the more efficient way. If you are the kind of player that enjoys grinding the same (but more difficult) content to find your gear, then efficiency isn't something you are too worried about.
In the end, I think Blizzard stuck with the same gearing model as Diablo 2 (and potentially diablo 1) thus intending for people to grind lots and lots to get the gear to progress.So, it will come down to the playstyle of each individual. Essentially, what they want out of the game.
I also think that the idea of efficiency via AH is a result of Inferno being as difficult as it is.(Not that its difficulty is a bad thing in my mind)
Bashiok stated openly that drop rates were adjusted with the AH in mind. By that, we means that everybody is expected to get 99% trash so the economy isn't overflowed with items. You'll sell rare items on the AH and so will others, and your only reliable means of getting item will be the AH.
The game was DESIGNED that way. I hate it, but its the truth. If you don't use the AH, you're not expected to get anywhere. Anybody can grind for a few months and you'll eventually do it, but who the hell wants that? I don't play Diablo to grind, believe it or not. The AH ruins the game and god am I sick of grinding-based games, this is worse than a Korean MMO.
One of Bashiok's post on the subject: http://us.battle.net...50764997?page=3
And gear MAGICALLY appears on the AH right? Cause people out there aren't finding gear and posting it. Cause it's impossible to find good gear right?
Bolded the really funny part of your post. All Diablo IS and ever HAS been is item grinding.
No. Even if I a million addicted fools that ran Diablo 2 boss runs for a decade would tell me that, I'd believe none. If thats all you've ever seen, I'm really quite sad for you.
Who said anything about boss runs? In a game where the only thing to do is get better gear and gear drops randomly, it's kinda hard to NOT be a grinding game.
The items on the AH people buy to progress are from acts/difficulties higher than people buying the equipment can play at.
D3Progress: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/emberos-1608/Emberos/51824579
It's still not REQUIRED. It's simply the fastest way, which is probably always going to be the case with an AH.
In fact, it was the fastest way in D2, only you used trading instead of buying gold.
May I ask, then, what was the point of Diablo 2, if not item griding? Was it exp grinding? Blowing up monsters? Screwing around in the world? Advancing your quest level? PvPing?
Because only one of those aren't in D3, and PvP will be shortly. Also, didn't you have to item grind for PvP?
I know a lot, and I mean a LOT of people who got all of their high-end items from exploits. Using the glitch to jump foward and farm Inferno Aspect of Terror, and abusing the Tyrael mechanic to kill Izual. Loading up on Magic Find and corpse walking to Resplendent Chests / Unicorn Clouds etc.
There is something wrong with the game when a dude who doesn't even have an Inferno Butcher kill is farming Act 4 for blues that are better than most Act 3 rare weapons. I literally watched a guy I play with do this.
Even before the "World First" Belial kill the auction house was already flooded with Act 4 blues, and occasional rares.
EDIT: And if you really need to ask how, recall that Athene was halfway through Act 3 of Inferno mode before Blizzard decided that allowing Monks to be completely invulnerable to all damage was a bad idea. It was several more days before they nerfed wizards, demon hunters, and boon of protection.
How long are we suppose to wait, bro? I've got over 100 hours of farm time in Inferno mode and I still haven't looted a single item that I would personally equip, let alone that would sell for more than 25K in the Auction House. That is basically 100 hours of solid farm time for no good item.
Sure with millions of people sharing the same auction house, and mathematical probability, you can and will find affordable upgrades in the Auction House, but around Act 3 most melees are going to hit a brick wall when most "upgrades" cost 5 million gold, and farming Act 1 or 2 for hours on end only provides 300-500K gold. RMAH should become very successful due to this, and I can't imagine why Blizzard would want to fix melees, or loot system before the RMAH is released.
Wug?
Wuw?
nothx
Next guy.
Wug?
Wuw?
...
So yeah, It wasnt different in D2. The AH just makes everything so much easier to deal with. You just post your shit for millions to see, instead of showing it to everyone individually, and you get to see gear from millions instead of asking everyone individually what they have.
I already answered this question. Players were farming Act 4 Aspect of Terror, and Izual before Method got "world first" kill of Butcher. Players who are not even on Act 4 (myself included), still farm Aspect of Terror and second mini-boss because the items he drops are really, really good. I got an 1100 DPS 1-hand cross bow off of him before I even had my first Inferno Belial kill.
Secondly, and probably more importantly, the first week or so the game was out, several classes had game breaking mechanics, all of which have since been nerfed. Athene was literally halfway through Act 3 on Inferno mode before Monks got invulnerability was nerfed.