There is only one case that I can see it being a bit unfair, and that is for those people who find the MOST elite gear that has the highest DPS AND good MF as a side effect, they wont be sacrificing DPS, but will be sharing their MF. Although I see this as a real corner case. In most circumstances blizzards system is fair.
I disagree, even in that 1% case where the person outgears the others it is still fair for two reasons.
#1 There is almost certainly someone else with better gear. Its not like they are carrying everyone.
#2 Differences in gear would always exist no matter what system you used.
If we are comparing different systems, then you can't consider this anyways.
What I mean is, lets stay you have been farming inferno for weeks at level 60, and you join a pub game with 3 other people who have just reached 60/inferno. You have high end items with say, 2000dps and 150% MF, they have 1000dps with 50% MF. Objectively you are carrying them damage wise AND MF wise, you are actually over-geared compared to them in every aspect, simply because you have been playing for longer and accumulated better items.
In this case, the argument (which I agree with BTW), that "MF and DPS are mutually exclusive" doesn't apply *in that game*.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
My point was that there is no loot system that can solve this problem, thus its not even worth considering. People use this as evidence that the system is unfair, but in reality this problem always existed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I really couldn't care less about "Public" cooperative play. It's every man for himself in wow, and you can even see which items drop, so when a sick item for your main class drops for someone else there is a 99% chance you will never know about it. If you play with your friends this problem no longer exists. If your friends play the game the same way you do, you're magic finding together anyways.
I guess the reason I don't have a problem with the current system is because I will rarely *ever* enter a "public" quest game.
There is only one case that I can see it being a bit unfair, and that is for those people who find the MOST elite gear that has the highest DPS AND good MF as a side effect, they wont be sacrificing DPS, but will be sharing their MF. Although I see this as a real corner case. In most circumstances blizzards system is fair.
I disagree, even in that 1% case where the person outgears the others it is still fair for two reasons.
#1 There is almost certainly someone else with better gear. Its not like they are carrying everyone.
#2 Differences in gear would always exist no matter what system you used.
If we are comparing different systems, then you can't consider this anyways.
What I mean is, lets stay you have been farming inferno for weeks at level 60, and you join a pub game with 3 other people who have just reached 60/inferno. You have high end items with say, 2000dps and 150% MF, they have 1000dps with 50% MF. Objectively you are carrying them damage wise AND MF wise, you are actually over-geared compared to them in every aspect, simply because you have been playing for longer and accumulated better items.
In this case, the argument (which I agree with BTW), that "MF and DPS are mutually exclusive" doesn't apply *in that game*.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
Personally, I like helping people. I don't see this as a problem. If someone is in the fight, doing their best with the gear they have, and not just wandering along behind picking up loot, I don't care.
Can't imagine worrying about whether I'm doing too much of the work. Because I'll know that a few weeks earlier, I was the one just getting to inferno, and that people there ahead of me were outdamaging me, and I felt guilty about it.
If you try hard and outgear the majority of people in a cooperative game, you are going to play better than them and be able to contribute more, either in terms of damage, support, or MF, or some combination thereof. It doesn't seem like something to be upset about. It just means you're succesful.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
Or quit being a greedy $%^# and group for the social aspects and not how you might benefit from it. I think all this will do is help weed out those people that we really wouldn't want to play with anyway.
EDIT: Not saying that to you specifically, btw. Just generalizing.
Although I agree 100% with the sentiment, it's not that simple. If you're in a game and you're getting significantly less drops AND taking significantly more time to kill (because your 3 partners suck), you should leave. Unless you know those people or really want to help them, there's no point in staying in that game.
One day you whipper snappers will be old and you will be the ones sucking, and hoping some kids come help you out!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
It just encourages you to play with close rl friends or guildmate types that can see the big picture and work as a team on several levels. They could have done a number of things to flesh out the teamplay aspect of the game, but they chose to do what they did with SC2. They decided to automate the entire online experience, not just game mechanics like stats and skill progression.
I blame the old casual gaming era and frat boys, because now Blizzard is still stuck in the past (console generation of the past 10 years.) They want to cater to people who want to click around two or three buttons to get into a game automatically, because some people are used to consoles. A lot of those people won't give a damn about your MF or their own MF. They just want to auto attack monsters. Some of them will even skip treasure goblins ffs. I made a joke thread about that regarding pug players, but of course the joke went over most people's heads.
The problem is that the casual gaming era is over. We're entering the Free to Play era, and it's perfectly alright to stick to the old Battle.net ways in this era. Things such as having proper lobby systems or "hosted" games with custom titles such as "Skeleton King Run" or "MF run Act 5" can and would work REALLY WELL in this new age of gaming. Blizzard still haven't gotten the memo yet, simply because they are still getting over how much success WoW has had and they haven't reached a point where they will think outside of the box. League of Legends and some other games with online lobbies kept this old system on the side for a reason. Riot games is making money hand over first, just by simply providing their customers the same freedom, along with content the players want, while also offering the same automation as well.
The bottom line is that this new automated quest progression system they have implemented has ruined the potential of you having a great experience with random players. It took away some of your freedom, it forces you to play with close friends (which is fine,) and it has also doomed you to playing a game with a strictly linear structure. Kiss any dreams you have about having an open-ended act or adventure good bye. Say hello to some SWEET Quest 64-like action where you run in a linear path for the next several years (or probably several months.)
Oh Cherub, did you enjoy Final Fantasy XIII? If so, you're going to LOVE Diablo 3!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people tell me I'm going to hell. I just let them know that I've already packed my bags!
For starters, I won't be focusing on MF until I reach high 50s-60. Up to that point, gear will be getting replaced on a fairly regular basis and I'll be putting most of my focus on killing power and survivability.
Once I reach a point where I can step foot into Inferno and function effectively, I'll slowly be adding MF into my build so long as I don't give up the other 2 primary focus points, that being killing power and survivability.
I'll also be grouping with friends and family members for the most part, so random grouping won't have much effect one way or the other. That being said, I intend to express the need for a solid MF score to those I play with so when I do group with them in Inferno, they won't be bringing the average down too much.
Ultimately though, even if they do bring the average down a bit, we'll still end up getting up to 2-4x the amount of loot which should make up for the amount of MF lost. My friends and I will be more than willing to share gear with each other thereby powering each other up that much faster. Someone soloing that kills an elite pack may get a rare to drop. My group that kills an elite pack may get a rare to drop for 1 person, a legendary drop for another, a set to drop for another etc. At which point we'll divvy them up and and put the items to use where they're best suited.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps... it is time to die.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
Or quit being a greedy $%^# and group for the social aspects and not how you might benefit from it. I think all this will do is help weed out those people that we really wouldn't want to play with anyway.
EDIT: Not saying that to you specifically, btw. Just generalizing.
Although I agree 100% with the sentiment, it's not that simple. If you're in a game and you're getting significantly less drops AND taking significantly more time to kill (because your 3 partners suck), you should leave. Unless you know those people or really want to help them, there's no point in staying in that game.
One day you whipper snappers will be old and you will be the ones sucking, and hoping some kids come help you out!
IMO, the solution for a MF player is to find another group of person that is dedicated to that. If those people are good enought there will be no problem to kill stuff and a pretty nice MF for everyone.
No, I like it. Without sharing MF, you'd have people show up loaded in so much junk MF gear that they couldn't kill anything and just rely on the group to get them drops. At least this way if someone does that, you get the benefit of their MF to compensate for their lack of killing ability.
This.
Blizzard took the best of all the negatives they had to deal with, and made the best decision possible.
NECRO, TOPIC ALREADY ON THIS, INFRACTED, REPORTED,....other things I can't think of this second, BUT THEM AS WELL!
<3
now without this nerf, it will be interesting to see if what we all first thought will come true, people will stack MF gear (with just MF) and slow the group.
This change is such a double edged sword. If you play with friends who you know and trust, this change will be great. If you play in public games, this change is going to invite more people to do less and hope the rest of the group farms more.
The changes to HP buffs per player in Inferno should, at least partially, compensate for "leechers."
Going from 110% to 75% per person is going to result in co-op coming very much back into vogue. As it stood the 110% plus the loss of your follower just made co-op too inefficient unless you grouped with the same people every time and could really tailor your specs to overcome those hurdles.
i like to share my MF with my buddy we farm together each wearing base 225+ mf so with 5 stacks NV we get 300+ mf each then we know we will get decent drops but i love to share on his GF as his mf gear has GF stats also and mine does not.
Epicurus
I guess the reason I don't have a problem with the current system is because I will rarely *ever* enter a "public" quest game.
http://i.imgur.com/O7Oeo.png
I received TWO beta keys. Eat it and like it.
Personally, I like helping people. I don't see this as a problem. If someone is in the fight, doing their best with the gear they have, and not just wandering along behind picking up loot, I don't care.
Can't imagine worrying about whether I'm doing too much of the work. Because I'll know that a few weeks earlier, I was the one just getting to inferno, and that people there ahead of me were outdamaging me, and I felt guilty about it.
If you try hard and outgear the majority of people in a cooperative game, you are going to play better than them and be able to contribute more, either in terms of damage, support, or MF, or some combination thereof. It doesn't seem like something to be upset about. It just means you're succesful.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
It just encourages you to play with close rl friends or guildmate types that can see the big picture and work as a team on several levels. They could have done a number of things to flesh out the teamplay aspect of the game, but they chose to do what they did with SC2. They decided to automate the entire online experience, not just game mechanics like stats and skill progression.
I blame the old casual gaming era and frat boys, because now Blizzard is still stuck in the past (console generation of the past 10 years.) They want to cater to people who want to click around two or three buttons to get into a game automatically, because some people are used to consoles. A lot of those people won't give a damn about your MF or their own MF. They just want to auto attack monsters. Some of them will even skip treasure goblins ffs. I made a joke thread about that regarding pug players, but of course the joke went over most people's heads.
The problem is that the casual gaming era is over. We're entering the Free to Play era, and it's perfectly alright to stick to the old Battle.net ways in this era. Things such as having proper lobby systems or "hosted" games with custom titles such as "Skeleton King Run" or "MF run Act 5" can and would work REALLY WELL in this new age of gaming. Blizzard still haven't gotten the memo yet, simply because they are still getting over how much success WoW has had and they haven't reached a point where they will think outside of the box. League of Legends and some other games with online lobbies kept this old system on the side for a reason. Riot games is making money hand over first, just by simply providing their customers the same freedom, along with content the players want, while also offering the same automation as well.
The bottom line is that this new automated quest progression system they have implemented has ruined the potential of you having a great experience with random players. It took away some of your freedom, it forces you to play with close friends (which is fine,) and it has also doomed you to playing a game with a strictly linear structure. Kiss any dreams you have about having an open-ended act or adventure good bye. Say hello to some SWEET Quest 64-like action where you run in a linear path for the next several years (or probably several months.)
Oh Cherub, did you enjoy Final Fantasy XIII? If so, you're going to LOVE Diablo 3!
For starters, I won't be focusing on MF until I reach high 50s-60. Up to that point, gear will be getting replaced on a fairly regular basis and I'll be putting most of my focus on killing power and survivability.
Once I reach a point where I can step foot into Inferno and function effectively, I'll slowly be adding MF into my build so long as I don't give up the other 2 primary focus points, that being killing power and survivability.
I'll also be grouping with friends and family members for the most part, so random grouping won't have much effect one way or the other. That being said, I intend to express the need for a solid MF score to those I play with so when I do group with them in Inferno, they won't be bringing the average down too much.
Ultimately though, even if they do bring the average down a bit, we'll still end up getting up to 2-4x the amount of loot which should make up for the amount of MF lost. My friends and I will be more than willing to share gear with each other thereby powering each other up that much faster. Someone soloing that kills an elite pack may get a rare to drop. My group that kills an elite pack may get a rare to drop for 1 person, a legendary drop for another, a set to drop for another etc. At which point we'll divvy them up and and put the items to use where they're best suited.
Bringing torment and pain to others.
Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps...
it is time to die.
Not sure how to take this, considering I'm 40.
This.
Blizzard took the best of all the negatives they had to deal with, and made the best decision possible.
You hit the nail on the head.
http://www.wowhq.com
Official Blizzard Quote:
The first change we’re making in 1.0.4 for co-op is to remove averaging in multiplayer games of Magic Find and Gold Find.
<3
now without this nerf, it will be interesting to see if what we all first thought will come true, people will stack MF gear (with just MF) and slow the group.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
Going from 110% to 75% per person is going to result in co-op coming very much back into vogue. As it stood the 110% plus the loss of your follower just made co-op too inefficient unless you grouped with the same people every time and could really tailor your specs to overcome those hurdles.
Solo is so much better just for the bonus from follower.
This change makes MFing in co-op so much better, and as co-op will be much easier, more viable.
Overall a great change, but the negative is, Inferno getting even mo-nerfed.