Blizzard is currently doing something that nobody seems to see coming:
They are setting a new standard for RPGs.
I have seen more complaints than I care to think of that this game lacks the customization of Diablo II. This, of course, is a logical fallacy as characters in Diablo II were locked into builds as soon as you started dumping points into skills. If you wanted to experiment or try a new build- you made a new character.
This concept is something that people seemed to have been raised on and have had burned into their mind of how something "should be". For a lot of these people (I was on of them) that liked to always try new builds, they became acclimated to having to constantly create new characters and level them just to see if something would work. For them, and myself, this is were a great deal of replayability came from.
However, in retrospect, this is poor game design. I remember playing Diablo II back in middle school and high school thinking, "Gee, I wish I didn't have to make a new character just to see if an idea will be good". I also remember trying some builds that were garbage and having to delete a character that I had spent hours on leveling and gearing up (oh, the frustration). Not to mention that eventually there were cookie cutter builds just like there are in WoW; frozen orb sorcs, hurricane druids, bone spirit necros, WW barbs, etc. And EVERYONE had Enigma (once it came out).
Taking the concept of replayability, and the origin of it (experimenting with new builds) we parallel it with another constant that seems to be a phenomenon among some RPG fans: distributing points.
These people feel that by clicking their mouse and making attribute points increase every time that they level, they are having a direct hand in developing their character. It makes the character closer to them and they to it. This, along with skill point distribution, or as I call it, "arbitrary clicking", is what fuels their RPG fire.
Blizzard is taking these two ideas, dissecting them, and seeing what can be changed to the guts of the RPGs gameplay.
First, they take the concept of replayability. The idea that the only reason to keep playing is to keep making new characters to keep trying new things. Blizzard is simply saying:
NO. That is NOT why you will want to keep playing this game. You will want to keep playing it because the gear hunt is a blast, the difficulty provides a true challenge, the combat is more fun than two kittens and a puppy, endgame PvP (while not balanced) will be fun, the story is sweet, randomized levels provide infinite possibilities with exploration, and leveling your artisans will be quite satisfying.
In addition, with the skill/rune combinations, one character can last you as long as all your characters in Diablo II with the potential combinations.
Second, they are taking the concept of "building your character" and changing it in a way that removes tedium and allows you to focus more on mastering your skills, runes, artisans, and gameplay expertise. Because of this removal, it will no longer be necessary for people to research what build is optimal. They can now play however they like and try what they like best.
A good example is WoW. I was a player for several years and something that always pained me was not being able to do whatever I wanted. I HAD to have "this talent" because if I didn't there was simply no way I could compete.
I have made a thread delving deeper into the potential customization and uses of spells here:
Consequently, some of the die-hard RPG fans that are connoisseurs of arbitrary clicking are upset that they cannot allocate points themselves. Blizzard is gently patting them on the shoulder and saying, "It's ok, that isn't what makes an RPG an RPG."
Instead, Blizzard is making stat allocation more than just arbitrary clicking by making it a gear hunt via fighting and crafting. A brilliant step. This merges the building of your character with the excitement of combat and removes the tedium. Not to mention armor dyes to further create the mystique of your character, you role player you. What up, pink armor?
Blizzard is, yet again, setting the standard for RPG gaming as they did with MMORPGs with WoW and RTS with SCI & II.
Stop living in nostalgia land and join us where the grass is greener. Change is scary but sometimes, believe it or not, it's great.
TL;DR:
At one time, side scrolling games were the only and best form of gaming i.e. Mario, Street Fighter, Double Dragon, Lost Vikings, the list goes on.
Then one day somebody said, "Hey, what if that isn't the only way?"
Are you for real?
Nobody is complaining about the revolutionary stuff: everyone liked the idea of runes for example - a unique concept.
What people are complaining about, in a nutshell is :
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
- incentivizing and building the game around their AH
- turning the game into a console whack-a-mole game by removing character planning and building from the game.
Making the game more accessible is not a bad thing. It's an element of design.
How is the game built around the AH. You're not even told the AH exists unless you discover it on your own.
Same dumb argument as ever. You don't think there's some critical thinking going on when you decide which skills and loot to equip? Diablo 3 is not a character sheet simulator. I hope you had the same argument for Diablo 2, because stat distribution was pretty much VIT VIT VIT errday. Diablo 3 is an action RPG. You click things until they die and level up and be awesome.
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
- incentivizing and building the game around their AH
- turning the game into a console whack-a-mole game by removing character planning and building from the game.
AH will be one of the greatest things with D3. No more WUG like in D2.
They are not removing character planning/building. skills/Items/gems/runes take care of that for you. Stat points is not = character building/customization.
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
- incentivizing and building the game around their AH
- turning the game into a console whack-a-mole game by removing character planning and building from the game.
AH will be one of the greatest things with D3. No more WUG like in D2.
They are not removing character planning/building. skills/Items/gems/runes take care of that for you. Stat points is not = character building/customization.
That's what you say, it is just your opinion and I respectfully disagree on all your three phrases.
1) The only difference between Wug and D3 AH will be the fact that Blizzard can alter the game to incentivize AH trading. I am mature enough to understand that this is the reason they are stalling the game for and I am sure that they will alter the game, patch, hotfix, and everything needed in order to maximize their profits from the AH. The AH is not made for the players it is made for Blizzard.
2) I havent spoken about character customization I my post, neither have I mentioned skill points. I have mentioned character planning, which is a higher arching concept. You are just repeating what blizzard told you to repeat.
Character planning is that wonderful thing, where before you start the game, you imagine your playthrough, and then you procede to implement it inside the game, enjoying seeing your character get stronger and stronger, not because the game automatically makes you stronger, but because you planned it that way. It is your baby and you are growing it.
Inside D3 this is impossible. It is streamlined, you get to pick all the skills and use the strongest at each level, and the item drops are random, except when you decide to use AH ( see what I mean).
I see the AH as a way to get gear to better my character because i dont have time to spend farming for hours on end (gaspzorz!), I respect your views and I believe your allowed to put your p.o.v accross no hassles there Gov. I intend to play D3 and try and get my WD to Inferno, and play Inferno with mates, but I have RL commitments so the AH lets you skip some (but not all) of the farming (Which I admit i did enjoy in D2, once I learnt how to go about it)
I didnt spend a huge amount of time playing D2, i played through a few characters to the end of the final acts but I think my highest toon was a lvl 50something Paladin. I played a few other characters and putting points into skills I thought were good. After a few lvl 80 toons telling me my build was crap i havent put the points in the right place to be any good at harder stages of the game i really lost interest because like all skill tree system some builds are just better than others and I feel that when your choice of builds is limited (admit it not every build works) you tend to be herded into the optimal builds to survive and do what you do well and to me that doesnt feel right (one of the issues I had with WOW)
I think the changes Blizz has made are good but not great. IMO to make it great let the player select which rune to unlock when its the right lvl for a rune to unlock, Starting at Hell difficulty start dropping super rare tomes that add new spells (global not class specific, or some class specific and some global) or new runes or <super thing of the most awesome> and in Inferno lower the drop rate still but up the awesome on the things i just mentioned, that way the people who love to grind and kill can show off some of these things cause they earnt them. I do like the spell/ability setup where i am not locked into a build and i think from my pov its a good move. Some sort of spell book would be great so we can see all of them together would make it better!
@ OP nice post I think your views are pretty on the money from my pov.
Anyway thats my thoughts.
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Super Cop! He knows where you live, he knows where you sleep.
I couldnt agree more with this post. To sum, I have 10 diablo 2 accounts, and 3 types of sorc, 3 types of paladin, 1 whirlwind barb, 2 druids, 1 elemental, 1 fury.... I can go on and on about mules to store all my shit. Until micromanaging and leveling up my 100th char became a chore. Do we want to go through that again? I for sure will not.
"They are setting a new standard for RPGs."
God help us if this will be standard for RPGs. The only standard they are maybe setting is the action part of the game.
Oh man, I'm soooooo upset to see in game trading go, why what will I ever do with item sales being honored instead of people constantly trying to be shady in item/gold pickups.
And stat allocation being customization? Please, every build in D2 is "calculate your required str based on wearing all gear, charms only, or with nothing, based on the best gear that you've already made a list of, and every other point goes to VIT".
Take the rose colored glasses off people, Lennon is dead and so is arbitrary clicking.
Why is D2 still going? Because the purchase price of the extremely outdated game is cheap as hell, has no online cost other than your internet connection, and is experiencing a resurgence as D3 comes closer and closer. Yet people forget to mention the sudden decline in the game after the 1.11 patch drove many people away from it by destroying pvp and completely overpowering certain classes/builds.
In pure number of players, sure I'll give you that there's probably more people playing D2 now than years ago. But now you be honest in return, isn't that really because of an increase in people playing online games in general? I mean seriously, the most common form of internet connection when D2 launched as a 56k modem.
I think we have some trolls that lie they still play d2 ... BECAUSE in patch 13c THEY INTRODUCED a respect option ... The first quest from akama, so u have 3 free respect. After that u could collect 4 essences from the end bosses and when u combine them(in the cube) u again get a respect ... No hate ... Just saying
2) I havent spoken about character customization I my post, neither have I mentioned skill points. I have mentioned character planning, which is a higher arching concept. You are just repeating what blizzard told you to repeat. Character planning is that wonderful thing, where before you start the game, you imagine your playthrough, and then you procede to implement it inside the game, enjoying seeing your character get stronger and stronger, not because the game automatically makes you stronger, but because you planned it that way. It is your baby and you are growing it. Inside D3 this is impossible. It is streamlined, you get to pick all the skills and use the strongest at each level, and the item drops are random, except when you decide to use AH ( see what I mean).
And you delete (kill your baby), when you find out your planning wasn't that good, because you didn't know what it is like in hell or inferno. And then start over.
No thanks I prefer freedom and a situation oriented planning.
PlugY was the most popular mod, for Diablo 2, for one simple reason. You could reset your skills.
Almost everyone wanted that, and now that is Blizzard who is giving you that option, everyone start complaining.
And what's the problem with the AH? Diablo is mostly a single and co-op game why does it bother you if someone spends thousands of dollars for gearing up?
For both skill reset and AH, if you don't like it don't use it. It’s as simple as that.
Seriously. This "no hate" "I respect your opinion, but" politically correct fakery is over the top in some of this thread.
Perhaps speak your point be less pandering and insinuative, the transparent sugar coating on half these posts is subtly giving people diabetes.
How many threads must be repeating the same poor me I want others to be restricted to the same gamestyle as a different game in this new game.
You may as well be saying like another article that Diablo 3 should be a FPS like Borderlands, as that is analogous to this line of thought. It isn't the other game, it isn't going to be purchase or don't purchase as Torchlight 2 makers made Diablo if you want a rehash there is your golden goose run along to it not many are going to be sad to see the special needs brigade jump ship.
Runic sure doesn't care that they aren't under the Diablo title for their games, that some do tells more about those people then anything else.
2) I havent spoken about character customization I my post, neither have I mentioned skill points. I have mentioned character planning, which is a higher arching concept. You are just repeating what blizzard told you to repeat. Character planning is that wonderful thing, where before you start the game, you imagine your playthrough, and then you procede to implement it inside the game, enjoying seeing your character get stronger and stronger, not because the game automatically makes you stronger, but because you planned it that way. It is your baby and you are growing it. Inside D3 this is impossible. It is streamlined, you get to pick all the skills and use the strongest at each level, and the item drops are random, except when you decide to use AH ( see what I mean).
And you delete (kill your baby), when you find out your planning wasn't that good, because you didn't know what it is like in hell or inferno. And then start over.
No thanks I prefer freedom and a situation oriented planning.
PlugY was the most popular mod, for Diablo 2, for one simple reason. You could reset your skills.
Almost everyone wanted that, and now that is Blizzard who is giving you that option, everyone start complaining.
And what's the problem with the AH? Diablo is mostly a single and co-op game why does it bother you if someone spends thousands of dollars for gearing up?
For both skill reset and AH, if you don't like it don't use it. It’s as simple as that.
I think you'll find it's not everyone and that in fact it's about the same 4 names littering every thread with the same story.
The original poster outlined a detailed and thoughtful argument that I totally agree with. It may seem like players who are actually looking forward to these changes are in the minority when you read some of these boards, but I think we'll see that when the game launches, we are in the majority. I, for one, am super-excited about the fact that I can have a legitimate shot at getting each class to the level cap; this was a near-impossibility for almost anyone playing D2. Imagine how many times you had to tinker with a build before you knew that you could take it past level 50 or so and not run into terrible problems with stat/skill point allocation down the road. Now, not only has that problem been solved, but it's been solved in a way that we will have access to all the skills and be able to test out various play styles and synergies at will. This, to me, seems like more time spent in the game having fun, and less time doing the "work" it used to take to theorize, build, test, tear down, and repeat the process of creating a character.
In conclusion, more fun for more people = better.
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i would choose my own religion and worship my own spirit, but if he ever preached to me i wouldn't want to hear it. i'd drop him, a forgotten god, languishing in shame; and then if i hit stormy seas, i'd have myself to blame.
I think most of these arguments boil down to the fact that there are two differing OPINIONS on this matter. There is group A that enjoys things added to the game that make things easier/convenient. There is group B that thinks there should be more limitations on things within the game.
For me, I think D2 went too far into Group B where you need to create a new character to make any changes. However, characters in D3 are too far into Group A for me so I'm not happy with that either. Personally, I was hoping for more of a middle group but I think they went from one extreme to the other.
Within reason, I don't like things being given to me in games. For example, when I played Guild Wars, I really hated that you didn't have to travel to different cities, you just clicked on the map and bam you're in that city. Is it more convenient than WoW? Yes. Is it more fun? Not for me.
It really depends on what you're looking for in the game.
The loudest voices will always be the whiners. And if you pay attention, it's usually the same 4 whiners. Regurgitating the same poorly formed and easily dismissed arguments they've been shouting, over and over again.
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
How is the game being dumbed down exactly? Oh that's right, no attribute points. Well, now you actually have to consider your armor and your sockets, you know, using str, dex, and int through items to carefully get the best out of armor, dodge, and resistance. In harder difficulties these choices are going to be key, and that will be a much better system that putting all points into vitality.
Or are you referring to no skill points. Well, now we you will actually need to consider your skills and runes. You can't just throw everything together. In higher difficulties this will cause you to be resource starved, and you will need to find the right balance between putting out reasonable damage vs using skills to soak damage. You will have 6 slots and 100+ skill variations to choose between which is much more meaningful than dumping all points into 3 or 4 skills to max out your damage.
- incentivizing and building the game around their AH
Diablo 2 had no economy whatsoever. The only viable resource the game ended up having was runes. In D3 gold will actually mean something. Although I wish the mystic was still in, the crafting options will give gold value and with the AH there will actually be a legit system of trading, better than what we had.
- turning the game into a console whack-a-mole game by removing character planning and building from the game.
No planning? See my first rebuttal. Through itemization and skill combinations, there will be a lot of planning left to do. I really don't see your point other than to moan for the sake of moaning.
- dumbing the game down - catering to idiots and retarded kids all over
- incentivizing and building the game around their AH
- turning the game into a console whack-a-mole game by removing character planning and building from the game.
AH will be one of the greatest things with D3. No more WUG like in D2.
They are not removing character planning/building. skills/Items/gems/runes take care of that for you. Stat points is not = character building/customization.
Quote 1: I agree. A lot of the points made by the creater of this thread are valid but that person is yet to realize that by removing runes as a physical object that you can seek out and find is a missed one. That's part of the adventure and fun of what makes diablo, diablo for me. I like to explore and EARn my rewards by looking for items, not just by blasting obviouse main and mini bosses; that is indeed for people who seems to narrow minded to not want to venture off and enjoy the quualities of the game. Part of the reason you choose a specific character is so that you obtain that character's attributes is it not? tell me why each character should have the ability to do as every other character can then? why not just have one character named "GOD" to choose from at the beginning?
Quote 2: In reply to quote 2, im a bit enthusiatic about the auction house while at the same time I am not. It peeves me a bit to think that i could spend hours and hours discovering a really nice peice of armour, while some shallow player who plays for a few weeks gets "bored" with diablo 3 and decides "meh, ill just buy my armor and kick every bosses A SS". To me, that takes away the depth of the game and the true feel that when you came across something valuable, it truely is valuable and the abundance of such an item may not exist. To me, AH is a bit Shallow of a feature, at least when people wanted to buy stuff in D2 they had to take the effort in finding a place to buy it which might actually have deterred some people.
Anyway, all rather valid poits but that's my input.
I agree there should be changes, i mean no one would want to play same thing just with better graphic hopefully, so change is good, now we have seen too little to be able to really say if it's too much or not. Personally i really have big faith in Blizz so much enjoyed all of their games since The lost vikings and if they're changing something i do believe it's for the better.
I honestly have to say that I actually ENJOYED remaking characters in D2 because of spec change, FoTM, etc. Despite having to make character after character, it actually made for awesome replay-ability. But with that being said, I appreciate the need for change and innovation. Like many others have said, this is Diablo 3, not Diablo 2.5. I have faith in their development team. They have been at the forefront of all innovative gaming and I hope are continuing to do so.
I wholeheartedly believe that Blizz will do a fantastic job with this game and that there will be some form of replay-ability built into the game to keep us addicted. After all, that IS their goal. They WANT us to keep playing the game for years to come until their next expansion. I feel that the RMAH will be one way that they will continue to gain revenue from this game, and if successful, will help to keep them working on future installments. HIGH HOPES!
I think it's sad that I probably only ever used about half (or less) of the skills in Diablo 2 because I knew that the rest of them were no good. I can't wait to do something fun and interesting with my characters in this game.
Saying that there's no character planning involved seems like an ignorant statement to me... Sure, you don't need to write down a recipe that someone else determined for you on how to build the perfect character. But you can still theory-craft in your spare time about awesome skill combinations. What more do you need? Skills are what make your characters awesome, not 15 extra points into vitality than the average Joe.
There is a fundamental flaw with your entire post.
Diablo is and has always been an ActionRPG (ARPG) game. It is in no way shape or form a true RPG. World of Warcraft is an MMORPG which is a whole other kettle of fish I won't get into here.
There is a fundamental difference between RPG and ARPG. RPG's tell a story you actually care about, they have decision points. They have characters who matter to you and you grow attached to.
Excellent examples of true RPG's are Ultima 4/5/6/7 , Baldur's Gate Series, Planescape Torment, Dragon Age Origins, The Witcher, Mass Effect 1&2. All these games had one thing in common, after playing the game, everyone remembers the story, they remember the super interesting array of sidekicks.
Combat was vastly different in all the games as were items collected. And it made total sense to start at level 1 with nothing and end up at level XXX with super items and kill the boss, and while combat was important it was always 2nd to the character development and the story.
In ARPG's combat, combat is king. In fact many don't really care about the story, or if they do its only on the first play through. After that its all about getting better items and being more powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the Diablo series. But please don't lump it together with RPG's.
Don't get me wrong. The absolute best RPG of all time, would have the combat and never ending end game of the Diablo series, the Plot and story of Mass Effect, the super memorable sidekicks of Baldur's Gate/Dragon's Age, and the world building of Skyrim and heart of the Ultima series. But until we get to that perfect nervana (If we ever do) please don't lump Diablo into the RPG genre, it is an ARPG.
There is a fundamental flaw with your entire post.
Diablo is and has always been an ActionRPG (ARPG) game. It is in no way shape or form a true RPG. World of Warcraft is an MMORPG which is a whole other kettle of fish I won't get into here.
There is a fundamental difference between RPG and ARPG. RPG's tell a story you actually care about, they have decision points. They have characters who matter to you and you grow attached to.
Excellent examples of true RPG's are Ultima 4/5/6/7 , Baldur's Gate Series, Planescape Torment, Dragon Age Origins, The Witcher, Mass Effect 1&2. All these games had one thing in common, after playing the game, everyone remembers the story, they remember the super interesting array of sidekicks.
Combat was vastly different in all the games as were items collected. And it made total sense to start at level 1 with nothing and end up at level XXX with super items and kill the boss, and while combat was important it was always 2nd to the character development and the story.
In ARPG's combat, combat is king. In fact many don't really care about the story, or if they do its only on the first play through. After that its all about getting better items and being more powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the Diablo series. But please don't lump it together with RPG's.
Don't get me wrong. The absolute best RPG of all time, would have the combat and never ending end game of the Diablo series, the Plot and story of Mass Effect, the super memorable sidekicks of Baldur's Gate/Dragon's Age, and the world building of Skyrim and heart of the Ultima series. But until we get to that perfect nervana (If we ever do) please don't lump Diablo into the RPG genre, it is an ARPG.
the combat is more fun than two kittens and a puppy,
Love this line. Great overall post, but this line just jumped out at me as a particularly awesome description. And it is that fun.
Anyway, I completely agree with you. Games need to progress and in order to do that the status quo must be challenged and it's not always pretty or easy, but I think in the long run it's always a good thing.
I still feel like the game play is as good as ever (if not better). Even today playing Diablo 2 I don't feel anymore connection than I do in Diablo 3 even though I'm adding points to my character every few levels. The system was good for it's time, but that's because it was such a huge revelation in character building, but today we've come to realize while it did some things well, it also created a lot of problems, and Blizzard has effectively cut the fat off the experience in digging deeper to find what truly makes these games so entertaining. This system is just another revelation in character building.
I really think people will love it when they finally sit down with the full game. Okay, three people will absolutely hate it, but the rest will come to see the benefits and enjoy it more for that.
@Emyln: Completely agree, and it seems weird to apply these strict rules of a traditional RPG when arguing against Diablo 3's new systems when it was never striving to be a traditional RPG to begin with!
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They are setting a new standard for RPGs.
I have seen more complaints than I care to think of that this game lacks the customization of Diablo II. This, of course, is a logical fallacy as characters in Diablo II were locked into builds as soon as you started dumping points into skills. If you wanted to experiment or try a new build- you made a new character.
This concept is something that people seemed to have been raised on and have had burned into their mind of how something "should be". For a lot of these people (I was on of them) that liked to always try new builds, they became acclimated to having to constantly create new characters and level them just to see if something would work. For them, and myself, this is were a great deal of replayability came from.
However, in retrospect, this is poor game design. I remember playing Diablo II back in middle school and high school thinking, "Gee, I wish I didn't have to make a new character just to see if an idea will be good". I also remember trying some builds that were garbage and having to delete a character that I had spent hours on leveling and gearing up (oh, the frustration). Not to mention that eventually there were cookie cutter builds just like there are in WoW; frozen orb sorcs, hurricane druids, bone spirit necros, WW barbs, etc. And EVERYONE had Enigma (once it came out).
Taking the concept of replayability, and the origin of it (experimenting with new builds) we parallel it with another constant that seems to be a phenomenon among some RPG fans: distributing points.
These people feel that by clicking their mouse and making attribute points increase every time that they level, they are having a direct hand in developing their character. It makes the character closer to them and they to it. This, along with skill point distribution, or as I call it, "arbitrary clicking", is what fuels their RPG fire.
Blizzard is taking these two ideas, dissecting them, and seeing what can be changed to the guts of the RPGs gameplay.
First, they take the concept of replayability. The idea that the only reason to keep playing is to keep making new characters to keep trying new things. Blizzard is simply saying:
NO. That is NOT why you will want to keep playing this game. You will want to keep playing it because the gear hunt is a blast, the difficulty provides a true challenge, the combat is more fun than two kittens and a puppy, endgame PvP (while not balanced) will be fun, the story is sweet, randomized levels provide infinite possibilities with exploration, and leveling your artisans will be quite satisfying.
In addition, with the skill/rune combinations, one character can last you as long as all your characters in Diablo II with the potential combinations.
Second, they are taking the concept of "building your character" and changing it in a way that removes tedium and allows you to focus more on mastering your skills, runes, artisans, and gameplay expertise. Because of this removal, it will no longer be necessary for people to research what build is optimal. They can now play however they like and try what they like best.
A good example is WoW. I was a player for several years and something that always pained me was not being able to do whatever I wanted. I HAD to have "this talent" because if I didn't there was simply no way I could compete.
I have made a thread delving deeper into the potential customization and uses of spells here:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/35876-customization-101/
Consequently, some of the die-hard RPG fans that are connoisseurs of arbitrary clicking are upset that they cannot allocate points themselves. Blizzard is gently patting them on the shoulder and saying, "It's ok, that isn't what makes an RPG an RPG."
Instead, Blizzard is making stat allocation more than just arbitrary clicking by making it a gear hunt via fighting and crafting. A brilliant step. This merges the building of your character with the excitement of combat and removes the tedium. Not to mention armor dyes to further create the mystique of your character, you role player you. What up, pink armor?
Blizzard is, yet again, setting the standard for RPG gaming as they did with MMORPGs with WoW and RTS with SCI & II.
Stop living in nostalgia land and join us where the grass is greener. Change is scary but sometimes, believe it or not, it's great.
TL;DR:
At one time, side scrolling games were the only and best form of gaming i.e. Mario, Street Fighter, Double Dragon, Lost Vikings, the list goes on.
Then one day somebody said, "Hey, what if that isn't the only way?"
Blizzard is still doing that today with RPGs.
I see the AH as a way to get gear to better my character because i dont have time to spend farming for hours on end (gaspzorz!), I respect your views and I believe your allowed to put your p.o.v accross no hassles there Gov. I intend to play D3 and try and get my WD to Inferno, and play Inferno with mates, but I have RL commitments so the AH lets you skip some (but not all) of the farming (Which I admit i did enjoy in D2, once I learnt how to go about it)
I didnt spend a huge amount of time playing D2, i played through a few characters to the end of the final acts but I think my highest toon was a lvl 50something Paladin. I played a few other characters and putting points into skills I thought were good. After a few lvl 80 toons telling me my build was crap i havent put the points in the right place to be any good at harder stages of the game i really lost interest because like all skill tree system some builds are just better than others and I feel that when your choice of builds is limited (admit it not every build works) you tend to be herded into the optimal builds to survive and do what you do well and to me that doesnt feel right (one of the issues I had with WOW)
I think the changes Blizz has made are good but not great. IMO to make it great let the player select which rune to unlock when its the right lvl for a rune to unlock, Starting at Hell difficulty start dropping super rare tomes that add new spells (global not class specific, or some class specific and some global) or new runes or <super thing of the most awesome> and in Inferno lower the drop rate still but up the awesome on the things i just mentioned, that way the people who love to grind and kill can show off some of these things cause they earnt them. I do like the spell/ability setup where i am not locked into a build and i think from my pov its a good move. Some sort of spell book would be great so we can see all of them together would make it better!
@ OP nice post I think your views are pretty on the money from my pov.
Anyway thats my thoughts.
Super Cop! He knows where you live, he knows where you sleep.
God help us if this will be standard for RPGs. The only standard they are maybe setting is the action part of the game.
And stat allocation being customization? Please, every build in D2 is "calculate your required str based on wearing all gear, charms only, or with nothing, based on the best gear that you've already made a list of, and every other point goes to VIT".
Take the rose colored glasses off people, Lennon is dead and so is arbitrary clicking.
Why is D2 still going? Because the purchase price of the extremely outdated game is cheap as hell, has no online cost other than your internet connection, and is experiencing a resurgence as D3 comes closer and closer. Yet people forget to mention the sudden decline in the game after the 1.11 patch drove many people away from it by destroying pvp and completely overpowering certain classes/builds.
In pure number of players, sure I'll give you that there's probably more people playing D2 now than years ago. But now you be honest in return, isn't that really because of an increase in people playing online games in general? I mean seriously, the most common form of internet connection when D2 launched as a 56k modem.
And you delete (kill your baby), when you find out your planning wasn't that good, because you didn't know what it is like in hell or inferno. And then start over.
No thanks I prefer freedom and a situation oriented planning.
PlugY was the most popular mod, for Diablo 2, for one simple reason. You could reset your skills.
Almost everyone wanted that, and now that is Blizzard who is giving you that option, everyone start complaining.
And what's the problem with the AH? Diablo is mostly a single and co-op game why does it bother you if someone spends thousands of dollars for gearing up?
For both skill reset and AH, if you don't like it don't use it. It’s as simple as that.
Perhaps speak your point be less pandering and insinuative, the transparent sugar coating on half these posts is subtly giving people diabetes.
How many threads must be repeating the same poor me I want others to be restricted to the same gamestyle as a different game in this new game.
You may as well be saying like another article that Diablo 3 should be a FPS like Borderlands, as that is analogous to this line of thought. It isn't the other game, it isn't going to be purchase or don't purchase as Torchlight 2 makers made Diablo if you want a rehash there is your golden goose run along to it not many are going to be sad to see the special needs brigade jump ship.
Runic sure doesn't care that they aren't under the Diablo title for their games, that some do tells more about those people then anything else.
I think you'll find it's not everyone and that in fact it's about the same 4 names littering every thread with the same story.
In conclusion, more fun for more people = better.
For me, I think D2 went too far into Group B where you need to create a new character to make any changes. However, characters in D3 are too far into Group A for me so I'm not happy with that either. Personally, I was hoping for more of a middle group but I think they went from one extreme to the other.
Within reason, I don't like things being given to me in games. For example, when I played Guild Wars, I really hated that you didn't have to travel to different cities, you just clicked on the map and bam you're in that city. Is it more convenient than WoW? Yes. Is it more fun? Not for me.
It really depends on what you're looking for in the game.
Or are you referring to no skill points. Well, now we you will actually need to consider your skills and runes. You can't just throw everything together. In higher difficulties this will cause you to be resource starved, and you will need to find the right balance between putting out reasonable damage vs using skills to soak damage. You will have 6 slots and 100+ skill variations to choose between which is much more meaningful than dumping all points into 3 or 4 skills to max out your damage.
Diablo 2 had no economy whatsoever. The only viable resource the game ended up having was runes. In D3 gold will actually mean something. Although I wish the mystic was still in, the crafting options will give gold value and with the AH there will actually be a legit system of trading, better than what we had.
No planning? See my first rebuttal. Through itemization and skill combinations, there will be a lot of planning left to do. I really don't see your point other than to moan for the sake of moaning.
Quote 1: I agree. A lot of the points made by the creater of this thread are valid but that person is yet to realize that by removing runes as a physical object that you can seek out and find is a missed one. That's part of the adventure and fun of what makes diablo, diablo for me. I like to explore and EARn my rewards by looking for items, not just by blasting obviouse main and mini bosses; that is indeed for people who seems to narrow minded to not want to venture off and enjoy the quualities of the game. Part of the reason you choose a specific character is so that you obtain that character's attributes is it not? tell me why each character should have the ability to do as every other character can then? why not just have one character named "GOD" to choose from at the beginning?
Quote 2: In reply to quote 2, im a bit enthusiatic about the auction house while at the same time I am not. It peeves me a bit to think that i could spend hours and hours discovering a really nice peice of armour, while some shallow player who plays for a few weeks gets "bored" with diablo 3 and decides "meh, ill just buy my armor and kick every bosses A SS". To me, that takes away the depth of the game and the true feel that when you came across something valuable, it truely is valuable and the abundance of such an item may not exist. To me, AH is a bit Shallow of a feature, at least when people wanted to buy stuff in D2 they had to take the effort in finding a place to buy it which might actually have deterred some people.
Anyway, all rather valid poits but that's my input.
I honestly have to say that I actually ENJOYED remaking characters in D2 because of spec change, FoTM, etc. Despite having to make character after character, it actually made for awesome replay-ability. But with that being said, I appreciate the need for change and innovation. Like many others have said, this is Diablo 3, not Diablo 2.5. I have faith in their development team. They have been at the forefront of all innovative gaming and I hope are continuing to do so.
I wholeheartedly believe that Blizz will do a fantastic job with this game and that there will be some form of replay-ability built into the game to keep us addicted. After all, that IS their goal. They WANT us to keep playing the game for years to come until their next expansion. I feel that the RMAH will be one way that they will continue to gain revenue from this game, and if successful, will help to keep them working on future installments. HIGH HOPES!
I think it's sad that I probably only ever used about half (or less) of the skills in Diablo 2 because I knew that the rest of them were no good. I can't wait to do something fun and interesting with my characters in this game.
Saying that there's no character planning involved seems like an ignorant statement to me... Sure, you don't need to write down a recipe that someone else determined for you on how to build the perfect character. But you can still theory-craft in your spare time about awesome skill combinations. What more do you need? Skills are what make your characters awesome, not 15 extra points into vitality than the average Joe.
There is a fundamental flaw with your entire post.
Diablo is and has always been an ActionRPG (ARPG) game. It is in no way shape or form a true RPG. World of Warcraft is an MMORPG which is a whole other kettle of fish I won't get into here.
There is a fundamental difference between RPG and ARPG. RPG's tell a story you actually care about, they have decision points. They have characters who matter to you and you grow attached to.
Excellent examples of true RPG's are Ultima 4/5/6/7 , Baldur's Gate Series, Planescape Torment, Dragon Age Origins, The Witcher, Mass Effect 1&2. All these games had one thing in common, after playing the game, everyone remembers the story, they remember the super interesting array of sidekicks.
Combat was vastly different in all the games as were items collected. And it made total sense to start at level 1 with nothing and end up at level XXX with super items and kill the boss, and while combat was important it was always 2nd to the character development and the story.
In ARPG's combat, combat is king. In fact many don't really care about the story, or if they do its only on the first play through. After that its all about getting better items and being more powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the Diablo series. But please don't lump it together with RPG's.
Don't get me wrong. The absolute best RPG of all time, would have the combat and never ending end game of the Diablo series, the Plot and story of Mass Effect, the super memorable sidekicks of Baldur's Gate/Dragon's Age, and the world building of Skyrim and heart of the Ultima series. But until we get to that perfect nervana (If we ever do) please don't lump Diablo into the RPG genre, it is an ARPG.
+1. I definitely see this and agree with this.
Love this line. Great overall post, but this line just jumped out at me as a particularly awesome description. And it is that fun.
Anyway, I completely agree with you. Games need to progress and in order to do that the status quo must be challenged and it's not always pretty or easy, but I think in the long run it's always a good thing.
I still feel like the game play is as good as ever (if not better). Even today playing Diablo 2 I don't feel anymore connection than I do in Diablo 3 even though I'm adding points to my character every few levels. The system was good for it's time, but that's because it was such a huge revelation in character building, but today we've come to realize while it did some things well, it also created a lot of problems, and Blizzard has effectively cut the fat off the experience in digging deeper to find what truly makes these games so entertaining. This system is just another revelation in character building.
I really think people will love it when they finally sit down with the full game. Okay, three people will absolutely hate it, but the rest will come to see the benefits and enjoy it more for that.
@Emyln: Completely agree, and it seems weird to apply these strict rules of a traditional RPG when arguing against Diablo 3's new systems when it was never striving to be a traditional RPG to begin with!