when reading a interview posted on Team Liquid's website... I came across a quote that really stood out to me made by Sixen
"In Diablo III, they’ve implemented a system that automatically allocates these stat points. Many people were saying that this removes character customization, which, to an extent, I suppose is true. If you wanted to render your character useless by “customizing” the stat points, you could certainly do so."
I feel this is so true, in that stats were only used in the old game to essentially "mess your character up" there was a perfect math equation almost to make a build (enough dex to max block, enough strength for gear, no energy then dump the rest in life) so all the complainers about not being able to use stats... how does this argument come into consideration
the argument I ofcourse am refrencing is the last line of the quote
It's hard for me to say I have not tried the beta so it's hard to compare them and how it works out. I do have to say is adding your own stats to what you want was what made diablo "diablo" but then again it forces you tho think about your equipment stats and what jewels to put in them to make your character more effective. In its own way it is character customization
I think it makes the character you make less customized in the sense of not being able to place points the way you want, however fiddling with stats has always been an issue, sometimes you may put 1+ too many point into dex or str by accident, this removes the need to have accidents even though the stats are placed for you. It also removes the hassel of stopping to place points where as a skill is just 2 simple clicks and your back to fighting. In a way it's good but I can see the customization part being taken out but the game was about the gear you find/made anyway and I think that is the best customization of this game and the fact you can get DYE! DiabloII did not have this. Hope this helps
There's something to be said about both ways of doing stat points. Back in D2, there was a general formula of how to create all your characters and was rarely varied. In D3, auto stat points basically eliminates any chance of breaking your character.
The way things stand now, however, it appears that stat points seem virtually invisible. Without any need to get X more points into a category, you lose sight of how much you have. Yes, the inventory screen now lists all your stats, but there's no real point to look at it. What you have is what you've got, and there's no real way to change the outcome. Getting gear with more stat points helps, of course, but there's a difference between investing unreclaimable points and getting a chest piece with added strength. It just feels like stat points have become less tangible, if you understand my meaning.
I hate how they removed skill points because they were broken in D2. How could it not have crossed their mind that maybe they should have made the different attributes more attractive. People stacked stamina in D2 because strength and dex was mostly useless besides allowing you to wear armor. If they would have made strength increase your damage in a meaningful way there would actually be choices in the game and everyone would not just dump point into strength. Do you want to make a character that does more damage or has more survive-ability? It's a difficult choice.
Instead, they took the typical blizzard philosophy of, we failed on our first try so it's impossible to make it better. Instead, we'll remove it.
If you're worried about permanently handicapping a character you can add a respec system.
Damage vs health is the best option. Dex could be damage mitigation. Energy could help with resources. If you make all the choices good choices then the player will actually have a choice. There will always be min-maxers but if you have a balanced system, most people will take different choices based on their play-style.
There's something to be said about both ways of doing stat points. Back in D2, there was a general formula of how to create all your characters and was rarely varied. In D3, auto stat points basically eliminates any chance of breaking your character.
The way things stand now, however, it appears that stat points seem virtually invisible. Without any need to get X more points into a category, you lose sight of how much you have. Yes, the inventory screen now lists all your stats, but there's no real point to look at it. What you have is what you've got, and there's no real way to change the outcome. Getting gear with more stat points helps, of course, but there's a difference between investing unreclaimable points and getting a chest piece with added strength. It just feels like stat points have become less tangible, if you understand my meaning.
I don't know how long it has been since you played LOD, but they changed the stat system so you could have 3 resets at akara one for each difficulty... so how does that effect your opinion on "permanence" of stats usage?
I like your point how you feel you forget you have stats so they don't feel releveant... which never occured to me but thinking about it like they kind of bugs me
the only thing that I kind of see past this with is the items giving you stats, increasing want/need for specific items (driving certain items values up for the RMH) as well as allowing for search of items to yield stats you may find as ideal or want that doesn't necisarily have to be what every one will desire (EX: I want to make a speed barb, so any thing to help this I'm hunting for)
I hate how they removed skill points because they were broken in D2. How could it not have crossed their mind that maybe they should have made the different attributes more attractive. People stacked stamina in D2 because strength and dex was mostly useless besides allowing you to wear armor. If they would have made strength increase your damage in a meaningful way there would actually be choices in the game and everyone would not just dump point into strength. Do you want to make a character that does more damage or has more survive-ability? It's a difficult choice.
Instead, they took the typical blizzard philosophy of, we failed on our first try so it's impossible to make it better. Instead, we'll remove it.
The attributes in d2 that you mentioned (strength) did add damage to attack (melee attack) but it was so low in significance and item centered that it was null, people never pumped strength for damage, because vitality was more valable for a "perfect builds" sake... now d3 has sort of flipped the script, where as before, the stats determined the gear, now the gear determines the stats...
Could they have just fixed the system to make it more viable to use energy? or to use strength outside getting gear... I think so.. but it comes down to their following, the blizz fans are insanely dedicated and will find the best mathmatical equation with stats so no matter how the balance goes, we will find the best most viable builds... I like your thought though if it could be scaled to work,
I feel they have done this with the 6 active skills... there are so many good ones to choose that you have to leave out some great skills, and all of them are viable in their own respect but not everything can be used for your "build"
That makes me miss the nephalem alter... I liked those in town, or before bosses, because it gives more of a feel to the whole 'semi-permanence' and an actual build... I am not the biggest fan of in run skill swapping, even with a cool down... but I think I'll avoid this by just getting good at using a certain build and not swap all the time mid run
If you're worried about permanently handicapping a character you can add a respec system.
Damage vs health is the best option. Dex could be damage mitigation. Energy could help with resources. If you make all the choices good choices then the player will actually have a choice. There will always be min-maxers but if you have a balanced system, most people will take different choices based on their play-style.
I agree there will always be min-maxers.. which is partially why I think this system (although it is new and un-revealed in it's fullest sense) is good thus far... upon release we could see certain affixes are the only desired affixes, and the rest get pawned for gold or dropped for their worthlessness in the items category
I think your ideas on damage vs health would make for a fun game... if we are relating to d2 LOD, a game we all know and love, I think they should eliminate mana going up with items or leveling so for example... if you are WW barb, if you put no points in mana you could only WW for a few seconds before you are incapable of doing the skill again, thus it would be relevant to balance between everything... and maybe give dex a more valuable assosciation
for example, dex does crushing blow, crit, or deadly strike, and increases block and dodge... so instead of just getting it for max block, it is scaled to as you pump it the other things get pumped making it viable to sacrifice health or mana or strength (damage) for
if all the attributes had a relevant gain then it would be a fun and interesting way to try and design a character... and min maxers would find good ways to build characters... but if glass cannon types wanted to pump dex, and go for a maybe less viable build that has high chance to crit and get super crazy damage bonuses they'd dump everything in strength and dex
all this aside... I'm a barb guy, and in d3 I like how they have done the fury system... building up your energy to spend it... so stats are taken out of it because the way the system is made... no need to dump into energy or a mana per say because you build up your fury to dump it with specific spendors... I love that system and can't wait to get a chance to try it out with the new and old class of diablo
I'm not a big fan of the diablo 2 system, people were also hoarding up points and not spending them until nightmare/hell sometimes, that is not a system that works as it should.
I joined the beta yesterday and i felt that the game felt more complete then diablo 2, times have changed and the stat allocation mechanic feels outdated in my opinion.
More and more RPG are being created without stat allocation placement, if something is missing you can always pick the gear according to that.
In many situations you gimped your self in Diablo 2 in some ways, you saved up a lot of points for later use, by doing this you gimped your self until you decided to spend them, you could also put to much in a stat that become useless after a while (to much dex,energy).
I see no reason to spend time putting points my self, i can pick my skills, my runes, my gear, my sockets, gems etc... there are enough decisions i can make, so having stat allocation seems like a hassle not worth the risk of messing it up.
I think there is one thing you guys are forgetting. In D2 the stat system sucked. You literally pumped vitality for most builds. Yes, you could choose to do something different but you know what I mean. What D2 on the other hand didnt have was a lot of attribute points in the gear. You found SOME gear with attributes, and you had some gems which gave SOME bonus.
However, in Diablo 3, the amount of gems which can be upgraded gives HUUUGE boosts to attributes. If you want a Vitality Witch doctor, just pump that 300 Vit which are available through sockets with gems. The difference now is that you can do what you want through items, which is the core of all Diablo games, instead of an attribute system. I could ofcourse have misunderstood something, but seeing the +attributes from gems makes me think you will be able to customize this to an larger extent than diablo 2 gave through stat point allocation.
all this aside... I'm a barb guy, and in d3 I like how they have done the fury system... building up your energy to spend it... so stats are taken out of it because the way the system is made... no need to dump into energy or a mana per say because you build up your fury to dump it with specific spendors... I love that system and can't wait to get a chance to try it out with the new and old class of diablo
Right on, the barb looks very fun. It's a big improvement over the D2 barb.
I'm not a big fan of the diablo 2 system, people were also hoarding up points and not spending them until nightmare/hell sometimes, that is not a system that works as it should.
I joined the beta yesterday and i felt that the game felt more complete then diablo 2, times have changed and the stat allocation mechanic feels outdated in my opinion.
More and more RPG are being created without stat allocation placement, if something is missing you can always pick the gear according to that.
In many situations you gimped your self in Diablo 2 in some ways, you saved up a lot of points for later use, by doing this you gimped your self until you decided to spend them, you could also put to much in a stat that become useless after a while (to much dex,energy).
I see no reason to spend time putting points my self, i can pick my skills, my runes, my gear, my sockets, gems etc... there are enough decisions i can make, so having stat allocation seems like a hassle not worth the risk of messing it up.
and don't forget about what dyes to color your gear
but seriously, I agree with you on the fact you don't gimp yourself... in D2 before the ability to respec, I would hate myself for putting any dex, and get pissed enough to entirely rebuild a character due to a few points in strength that could have been saved to throw on vitality... Before the respec, I re-built so many characters it is crazy... it contributed a bit to replayablity, but we didn't have inferno!
I think the new stat system allows for you to play and be more immerced in the game, and the lack of permanence is a nice convienence to the player (skills and stats wise) because it allows you to just play and have fun and not have to be diabolical in your picking apart of the scales to intentionally become a min-maxer...
the choice of skills will be more heavily favored and drive to find items to sell and trade in RMA... I think d3 is different for sure, but sometimes different can be good, and I think on launch day this game will be nice and polished
This decision is largely fueled by the fact that we should not have to start new character to respec in d3. The skill system obviously reflects that, but the skill system alone does not guarantee someone didn't accidentally put all their points into vitality and forget the other stats, obstructing them from equipping any worthwhile gear.
The downside is pretty much what everyone here has already mentioned. This means less customization, or perhaps a lesser feeling of true character progression.
For me personally, I don't think that dying my armor a different color really makes my character different. I want to know that I made different decisions with my monk than all the other level 60 monks out there. I want to feel like maybe I didn't do the best speccing, and that there is always room to make a better character. Well making that better character is now as simple as changing your primary and passive skills around. Less risk = Less reward in my opinion, but I can see why others would disagree.
I don't know how long it has been since you played LOD, but they changed the stat system so you could have 3 resets at akara one for each difficulty... so how does that effect your opinion on "permanence" of stats usage?
the only thing that I kind of see past this with is the items giving you stats, increasing want/need for specific items (driving certain items values up for the RMH) as well as allowing for search of items to yield stats you may find as ideal or want that doesn't necisarily have to be what every one will desire (EX: I want to make a speed barb, so any thing to help this I'm hunting for)
Thank you for pointing out respecs in D2. I'm well aware of them, however, and my opinion is exactly the same. Since we're discussing stat points, there's two topics I'd briefly discuss regarding D2 and respecs:
1) The majority of people didn't use respecs for the sole purpose of reallocating stat points. They did it to remake a character build and change their skills. Depending on the build, the necessary/suggested gear would change on that character and they'd change their stats to meet the gear requirements. In the approximately two dozen characters I made when respecs were available, only ONCE did I respec only for stats; I made a sorceress that dumped points into Energy initially for more mana, then once I was able to equip better +mana gear did I respec for more "traditional" stat placement. If respecs weren't available, either I wouldn't have chosen the Energy route to begin with, or I would have simply weakened my character somewhat since she would have less Vitality than other sorcs. Which leads into --
2) "Broken" characters were generally ones that had poorly allocated skills. Poorly placed stats could oftentimes be overcome with gear & charms. Even characters that skimped too much on Dexterity for block or Vitality for survivability could survive with tactical gameplay... or carried by seven other players on b.net. Sure, someone could drop unnecessary points into less useful stats, but it's rare when poor stat placement prevented a character from being able to complete Hell. Yes, people used to remake characters so their stats were better allocated, but usually it was for better survivability, not because their character was entirely unusable.
Onto D3:
Yes, stats on items will be extremely important. It's the only way to differentiate between character builds that are exactly the same. For two characters that use the same skills, the only difference between them will be the gear they use. Min/maxing is done entirely through their items.
What I was trying to elude to (and what you picked up on) is that the core stats of any character are pretty much meaningless. They change as you level, sure, and your power / damage reduction / dodge / resists increase as you progress. But without any physical manipulation of these stats, they're basically pointless to look at since there's nothing to do with them regardless of the build you want or skills you choose. These numbers change as you find better, more sought after gear for the specific stats you want. In terms of the stat systems from each of the games, however, the pre-allocated stats of D3 have nothing compelling about them whatsoever.
This ends up having an effect on certain builds. In D2, take, for example, a glass cannon Bowazon that put every point into Dex for maximum damage versus a standard "stats for gear, everything else into Vitality". Power levels differ, survivability differs, overall available gear differs. It's the same with a Titan build for a Barbarian; everything goes into Strength, so he's super strong but pretty squishy without any Dex for blocking or points put into Vitality.
This simply isn't possible in D3. With the Demon Hunter; the only way you can create anything resembling a glass cannon is to load up on the specific gear that has comparitively higher Dex and less Vitality. The overall difference between your glass cannon and a Demon Hunter with balanced stat gear is far less than what you'd see in D2 because their core stats are exactly the same. Titans are stronger than a balanced Barbarian build, yes, but they really aren't all that much stronger because he shares the same core stats as a standard Barbarian.
Perhaps this isn't a terrible thing, however. Having a basic set of allocated stats can maybe make what is a wacky build more viable due to its inherent core stat balance. A glass cannon in D2 might get OHKOed since they have far less base life, whereas a glass cannon in D3 inherits more life due to their natural stats in Vitality and might be able to take a couple/few hits before dying. A Barbarian with all Strength gear can potentially survive better since he has more natural points in Dex for a chance to dodge.
...What is my point? ...I don't know, I lost it a long time ago.
Too be honest, I never liked it when games made you choose where to put your stats. I feel like having a talent system is more than enough for customization when it comes down to making your character feel unique. I do understand a lot of people enjoy picking where to put there stat points but I feel that in some cases it can change a game to more of a complicated feel than it should. When people start playing a game the first thing they want to do is just have fun and play, not having to worry where to put these skill points. I always hated going online and having to search up what is the best attribute to implement points. Most of the time I would just never put the points in until I reached higher level just because I wanted to play. I didn't want to alt tab in and out of the game. I hate it.
I know many people like crunching the numbers and making a pure "glass cannon" skill set or make talent builds that would not be viable without stacking skill points within the appropriate attribute, but this just makes it even harder for developers to balance the game appropriately and makes it more complicated for people who want to play the game without taking out a calculator.
Also, does choosing where the stat points land at the end of the day really make a difference when it comes down to skill or fun factor? I guess it really depends on if someone likes using a calculator.
Blizzard is trying to make a game that will appeal towards everyone, not just the people who played D2. That being said, I personally like the new D3 stat system over that which is the D2 stat system.
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Most People Are Completely Ignorant To The Microscopic World Around Them -Me
"... Many people were saying that this removes character customization, which, to an extent, I suppose is true. If you wanted to render your character useless by “customizing” the stat points, you could certainly do so"
I view it as if hes saying that there is only one stat build that is the most efficient, and that going slightly more tanking or offensive with stats is rendering your character useless...
In D2 my friend and I made an odd build as two lightning aura paladins with Widowmakers. It worked pretty well in pvp and it was quite different stat build than most paladin builds.
The stat system in D3 had the freedom to put points where ever you want. However there was a best way to put the points and if you went to far off the character was not as good as it should be. You allways wanted to get enough strength to ware an armor or weapon. The rest is put into stamina . Thats not really a different system then what we have. Thats just my opinion tho.
That's completely true, but some of the fun in the RPGs was to figure out that equation, you could't just trow the stats randomly you had to think a little if you wanted to be the best. I remember arguing with friends about why my sorc had that many points in dex and almost no points in energy. I do see why they change I completely agree with, so please don't go hatting me =]
I also feel like with the "general benefits" from attributes (the ones that every class gets, like the +resistances from intelligence) it might not be such a bad idea to make a Barb with tons of intelligence, but now you'll have to use the "item game" for that (which boosts the purpose of the auction house and focuses on their most important/prime random element of the game), and it means you'll have a Barbarian that's very resilient to magic damage.
That probably will open up a ton of possible item builds depending on what type of character you want. Want a pure 100% damage Barb, get only strenght, want a more balanced Barb (with decent HP, dmg, and both armor [dodge=dex] and magic resist [int]) you'll have to focus on getting all 4 stats.
The real question now is: how many of those will be viable in the end-game (since everything's viable in the early game), and that's something we will only find out in the release
I think it will be much better with the new stat system. Before in D2 you had to figure out the right amount of stats for the gear/charms you wanted to equip. It got to be too much of a pain in the you know what. Now you just have to worry about getting the piece of gear with the right stats you want, which can be a pain sometimes too but more balanced overall. But with all the new features in D3 I think it will be much less of a headache then before.
P.S. *begs for beta key*
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"In Diablo III, they’ve implemented a system that automatically allocates these stat points. Many people were saying that this removes character customization, which, to an extent, I suppose is true. If you wanted to render your character useless by “customizing” the stat points, you could certainly do so."
I feel this is so true, in that stats were only used in the old game to essentially "mess your character up" there was a perfect math equation almost to make a build (enough dex to max block, enough strength for gear, no energy then dump the rest in life) so all the complainers about not being able to use stats... how does this argument come into consideration
the argument I ofcourse am refrencing is the last line of the quote
The way things stand now, however, it appears that stat points seem virtually invisible. Without any need to get X more points into a category, you lose sight of how much you have. Yes, the inventory screen now lists all your stats, but there's no real point to look at it. What you have is what you've got, and there's no real way to change the outcome. Getting gear with more stat points helps, of course, but there's a difference between investing unreclaimable points and getting a chest piece with added strength. It just feels like stat points have become less tangible, if you understand my meaning.
Instead, they took the typical blizzard philosophy of, we failed on our first try so it's impossible to make it better. Instead, we'll remove it.
Damage vs health is the best option. Dex could be damage mitigation. Energy could help with resources. If you make all the choices good choices then the player will actually have a choice. There will always be min-maxers but if you have a balanced system, most people will take different choices based on their play-style.
I like your point how you feel you forget you have stats so they don't feel releveant... which never occured to me but thinking about it like they kind of bugs me
the only thing that I kind of see past this with is the items giving you stats, increasing want/need for specific items (driving certain items values up for the RMH) as well as allowing for search of items to yield stats you may find as ideal or want that doesn't necisarily have to be what every one will desire (EX: I want to make a speed barb, so any thing to help this I'm hunting for)
The attributes in d2 that you mentioned (strength) did add damage to attack (melee attack) but it was so low in significance and item centered that it was null, people never pumped strength for damage, because vitality was more valable for a "perfect builds" sake... now d3 has sort of flipped the script, where as before, the stats determined the gear, now the gear determines the stats...
Could they have just fixed the system to make it more viable to use energy? or to use strength outside getting gear... I think so.. but it comes down to their following, the blizz fans are insanely dedicated and will find the best mathmatical equation with stats so no matter how the balance goes, we will find the best most viable builds... I like your thought though if it could be scaled to work,
I feel they have done this with the 6 active skills... there are so many good ones to choose that you have to leave out some great skills, and all of them are viable in their own respect but not everything can be used for your "build"
That makes me miss the nephalem alter... I liked those in town, or before bosses, because it gives more of a feel to the whole 'semi-permanence' and an actual build... I am not the biggest fan of in run skill swapping, even with a cool down... but I think I'll avoid this by just getting good at using a certain build and not swap all the time mid run
I agree there will always be min-maxers.. which is partially why I think this system (although it is new and un-revealed in it's fullest sense) is good thus far... upon release we could see certain affixes are the only desired affixes, and the rest get pawned for gold or dropped for their worthlessness in the items category
I think your ideas on damage vs health would make for a fun game... if we are relating to d2 LOD, a game we all know and love, I think they should eliminate mana going up with items or leveling so for example... if you are WW barb, if you put no points in mana you could only WW for a few seconds before you are incapable of doing the skill again, thus it would be relevant to balance between everything... and maybe give dex a more valuable assosciation
for example, dex does crushing blow, crit, or deadly strike, and increases block and dodge... so instead of just getting it for max block, it is scaled to as you pump it the other things get pumped making it viable to sacrifice health or mana or strength (damage) for
if all the attributes had a relevant gain then it would be a fun and interesting way to try and design a character... and min maxers would find good ways to build characters... but if glass cannon types wanted to pump dex, and go for a maybe less viable build that has high chance to crit and get super crazy damage bonuses they'd dump everything in strength and dex
all this aside... I'm a barb guy, and in d3 I like how they have done the fury system... building up your energy to spend it... so stats are taken out of it because the way the system is made... no need to dump into energy or a mana per say because you build up your fury to dump it with specific spendors... I love that system and can't wait to get a chance to try it out with the new and old class of diablo
I joined the beta yesterday and i felt that the game felt more complete then diablo 2, times have changed and the stat allocation mechanic feels outdated in my opinion.
More and more RPG are being created without stat allocation placement, if something is missing you can always pick the gear according to that.
In many situations you gimped your self in Diablo 2 in some ways, you saved up a lot of points for later use, by doing this you gimped your self until you decided to spend them, you could also put to much in a stat that become useless after a while (to much dex,energy).
I see no reason to spend time putting points my self, i can pick my skills, my runes, my gear, my sockets, gems etc... there are enough decisions i can make, so having stat allocation seems like a hassle not worth the risk of messing it up.
However, in Diablo 3, the amount of gems which can be upgraded gives HUUUGE boosts to attributes. If you want a Vitality Witch doctor, just pump that 300 Vit which are available through sockets with gems. The difference now is that you can do what you want through items, which is the core of all Diablo games, instead of an attribute system. I could ofcourse have misunderstood something, but seeing the +attributes from gems makes me think you will be able to customize this to an larger extent than diablo 2 gave through stat point allocation.
Right on, the barb looks very fun. It's a big improvement over the D2 barb.
but seriously, I agree with you on the fact you don't gimp yourself... in D2 before the ability to respec, I would hate myself for putting any dex, and get pissed enough to entirely rebuild a character due to a few points in strength that could have been saved to throw on vitality... Before the respec, I re-built so many characters it is crazy... it contributed a bit to replayablity, but we didn't have inferno!
I think the new stat system allows for you to play and be more immerced in the game, and the lack of permanence is a nice convienence to the player (skills and stats wise) because it allows you to just play and have fun and not have to be diabolical in your picking apart of the scales to intentionally become a min-maxer...
the choice of skills will be more heavily favored and drive to find items to sell and trade in RMA... I think d3 is different for sure, but sometimes different can be good, and I think on launch day this game will be nice and polished
This decision is largely fueled by the fact that we should not have to start new character to respec in d3. The skill system obviously reflects that, but the skill system alone does not guarantee someone didn't accidentally put all their points into vitality and forget the other stats, obstructing them from equipping any worthwhile gear.
The downside is pretty much what everyone here has already mentioned. This means less customization, or perhaps a lesser feeling of true character progression.
For me personally, I don't think that dying my armor a different color really makes my character different. I want to know that I made different decisions with my monk than all the other level 60 monks out there. I want to feel like maybe I didn't do the best speccing, and that there is always room to make a better character. Well making that better character is now as simple as changing your primary and passive skills around. Less risk = Less reward in my opinion, but I can see why others would disagree.
Thank you for pointing out respecs in D2. I'm well aware of them, however, and my opinion is exactly the same. Since we're discussing stat points, there's two topics I'd briefly discuss regarding D2 and respecs:
1) The majority of people didn't use respecs for the sole purpose of reallocating stat points. They did it to remake a character build and change their skills. Depending on the build, the necessary/suggested gear would change on that character and they'd change their stats to meet the gear requirements. In the approximately two dozen characters I made when respecs were available, only ONCE did I respec only for stats; I made a sorceress that dumped points into Energy initially for more mana, then once I was able to equip better +mana gear did I respec for more "traditional" stat placement. If respecs weren't available, either I wouldn't have chosen the Energy route to begin with, or I would have simply weakened my character somewhat since she would have less Vitality than other sorcs. Which leads into --
2) "Broken" characters were generally ones that had poorly allocated skills. Poorly placed stats could oftentimes be overcome with gear & charms. Even characters that skimped too much on Dexterity for block or Vitality for survivability could survive with tactical gameplay... or carried by seven other players on b.net. Sure, someone could drop unnecessary points into less useful stats, but it's rare when poor stat placement prevented a character from being able to complete Hell. Yes, people used to remake characters so their stats were better allocated, but usually it was for better survivability, not because their character was entirely unusable.
Onto D3:
Yes, stats on items will be extremely important. It's the only way to differentiate between character builds that are exactly the same. For two characters that use the same skills, the only difference between them will be the gear they use. Min/maxing is done entirely through their items.
What I was trying to elude to (and what you picked up on) is that the core stats of any character are pretty much meaningless. They change as you level, sure, and your power / damage reduction / dodge / resists increase as you progress. But without any physical manipulation of these stats, they're basically pointless to look at since there's nothing to do with them regardless of the build you want or skills you choose. These numbers change as you find better, more sought after gear for the specific stats you want. In terms of the stat systems from each of the games, however, the pre-allocated stats of D3 have nothing compelling about them whatsoever.
This ends up having an effect on certain builds. In D2, take, for example, a glass cannon Bowazon that put every point into Dex for maximum damage versus a standard "stats for gear, everything else into Vitality". Power levels differ, survivability differs, overall available gear differs. It's the same with a Titan build for a Barbarian; everything goes into Strength, so he's super strong but pretty squishy without any Dex for blocking or points put into Vitality.
This simply isn't possible in D3. With the Demon Hunter; the only way you can create anything resembling a glass cannon is to load up on the specific gear that has comparitively higher Dex and less Vitality. The overall difference between your glass cannon and a Demon Hunter with balanced stat gear is far less than what you'd see in D2 because their core stats are exactly the same. Titans are stronger than a balanced Barbarian build, yes, but they really aren't all that much stronger because he shares the same core stats as a standard Barbarian.
Perhaps this isn't a terrible thing, however. Having a basic set of allocated stats can maybe make what is a wacky build more viable due to its inherent core stat balance. A glass cannon in D2 might get OHKOed since they have far less base life, whereas a glass cannon in D3 inherits more life due to their natural stats in Vitality and might be able to take a couple/few hits before dying. A Barbarian with all Strength gear can potentially survive better since he has more natural points in Dex for a chance to dodge.
...What is my point? ...I don't know, I lost it a long time ago.
I know many people like crunching the numbers and making a pure "glass cannon" skill set or make talent builds that would not be viable without stacking skill points within the appropriate attribute, but this just makes it even harder for developers to balance the game appropriately and makes it more complicated for people who want to play the game without taking out a calculator.
Also, does choosing where the stat points land at the end of the day really make a difference when it comes down to skill or fun factor? I guess it really depends on if someone likes using a calculator.
-Me
"... Many people were saying that this removes character customization, which, to an extent, I suppose is true. If you wanted to render your character useless by “customizing” the stat points, you could certainly do so"
I view it as if hes saying that there is only one stat build that is the most efficient, and that going slightly more tanking or offensive with stats is rendering your character useless...
In D2 my friend and I made an odd build as two lightning aura paladins with Widowmakers. It worked pretty well in pvp and it was quite different stat build than most paladin builds.
That probably will open up a ton of possible item builds depending on what type of character you want. Want a pure 100% damage Barb, get only strenght, want a more balanced Barb (with decent HP, dmg, and both armor [dodge=dex] and magic resist [int]) you'll have to focus on getting all 4 stats.
The real question now is: how many of those will be viable in the end-game (since everything's viable in the early game), and that's something we will only find out in the release
P.S. *begs for beta key*