There was a time when RPGs didn't require you to meticulously plan out your character builds from level 1 you know. You might have even played such a game. (Diablo 1) If that's too "actiony" for you though, you might look at every single RPG based on AD&D 2nd edition, which had downright minimal customization options for building a class. And if D&D isn't an RPG, I'm not sure what is.
What you're pointing out could also have been said at the launch of Diablo 2. Diablo 1 had spells books, of which all classes shared the same spell pool. The three classes were practically indistinct. From there skill trees and point are actually a step in a whole new direction. And now Diablo 3 is featuring rune customization.
So basically the evolution of the skill/spell system:
Spell Books->Skill Trees->Skill Runes
Also, Diablo 2's items relied heavily on your attributes, and no matter which class you played, you could always build them in the same way. You raised strength for your desired armor, dexterity you left or spent a few points if you played with a shield, the rest went into vitality, and you never needed to spend a point in energy. How is that fun, exactly?
If you've been following D3 then you'd know that attributes still play a part in your character build, I'd say more so than D2. Attributes are more of a juggling act now, which are totally item dependent now and can actively be raised through gems. In D2 item requirements seemed burdened by your attributes, however, in D3 your items work in conjunction with your attributes, raising them to in turn function with your build.
This is definitely a move in the right direction.
i started reading his post and theres too much QQ in it that it just seems sad. can you make a list of things you think need to be changed to make D3 how you would see it as an amazing successor?
There wasn't any real choice in stats in Diablo 2. Here's how I would typically allocate stats:
1. Enough strength to wear the equipment I've found.
2. Enough dexterity to wear the equipment I've found (usually none).
3. Enough vitality so I don't get instantly killed in 1 hit.
4. That's it. I'd usually have anywhere from 100-150 stat points unallocated just in case I found something I needed a ton more strength for, and you know what? It never mattered.
You have to stop thinking about it as a D2 successor (even when it is). If you do, you just get disappointed. You should also stop pointing out flaws in the game to this forums, most (not all) will just completely disregard your post and try to convince you that the game is perfect. The time when criticizing was welcomed is long gone.
What? I most certainly see D3 as the true successor to D2 in every way. It takes everything about D2 that has become stale and improved upon it. I can honestly say that I am 100% excited about everything in D3 and I truly think it is brilliant as it is, excellent as a baseline. And from here on they have a great groundwork to expand upon.
You know, I don't understand why people insist to clamor that just because Blizzard are introducing new systems and scraping dated concepts it means that this can't be a true sequel. And just because you feel that this is not what you wanted doesn't mean its crap as a rule. Perhaps you expected D2.5 and that's fine, but don't presume that the rest of us can't be excited about the changes just because you're not. Some of us feel the game is perfectly fine, and really think the direction the game is going in is very positive. The only flaw I personally had was with the unattuned rune system, but since they scraped that I'm ecstatic.
Criticism is fine, constructive criticism above all. However, many people here have boiled the argument down to whining, spewing insults at Blizzard and anyone who supports them, or have reverted to downright paranoia and conspiracy theories. To some complaints of the upset, nostalgic minority, Blizzard even reply with reasoning behind their changes. If people still don't like it, then it's fine, but I don't see why some of these people would afterwards freak out and continue berating Blizzard and those who like their ideas.
And you can certainly do a thematic play-through. Since when did people need boundaries to use imagination? You want to be a frost/cold/ice wizard? Then complete the game only using spells from those schools.
Want to be a Witch-doctor that never summons a companion? Off you go.
The freedom to swap doesn't mean you have to. Create unique runs yourself. The system is still there - just because you can swap skills freely; doesn't mean you have to.
This
Please close troll post nothing else to discuss…
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
What? I most certainly see D3 as the true successor to D2 in every way. It takes everything about D2 that has become stale and improved upon it. I can honestly say that I am 100% excited about everything in D3 and I truly think it is brilliant as it is, excellent as a baseline. And from here on they have a great groundwork to expand upon.
You know, I don't understand why people insist to clamor that just because Blizzard are introducing new systems and scraping dated concepts it means that this can't be a true sequel. And just because you feel that this is not what you wanted doesn't mean its crap as a rule. Perhaps you expected D2.5 and that's fine, but don't presume that the rest of us can't be excited about the changes just because you're not. Some of us feel the game is perfectly fine, and really think the direction the game is going in is very positive. The only flaw I personally had was with the unattuned rune system, but since they scraped that I'm ecstatic.
Criticism is fine, constructive criticism above all. However, many people here have boiled the argument down to whining, spewing insults at Blizzard and anyone who supports them, or have reverted to downright paranoia and conspiracy theories. To some complaints of the upset, nostalgic minority, Blizzard even reply with reasoning behind their changes. If people still don't like it, then it's fine, but I don't see why some of these people would afterwards freak out and continue berating Blizzard and those who like their ideas.
I know, I wasn't tring to flame, though I admit it came out a little disrespectful. I'm not saying that everyone who likes the direction of the D3 is an idiot or anything of the sort, or that just because I don't like a mechanic, nobody should, not at all. I'm happy that the majority like the game, and I can understand why. Blizz's reasons for the changes are sensible, but there are bound to be some people still not conviced, and I'm one of them. As it is, D3 is a great game, but if I had no idea that D3 existed, and you asked me "What would make an ideal Diablo III?", my answer would differ greatly from the current state of the game.
I think our main difference is what we enjoyed about D2. I hear (read) a lot of people saying that D2 was about getting the best items, that everything below lvl 80 was boring, that singleplayer was a waste of time, etc. I never even bet Hell yet. I've never crafted a runeword (other that Ral - Ort - Tal). I've never player online, just with friends over LAN, and that wasn't often. For me, D2 was about leveling, about choosing my build and sticking with it, about realizing there was a great skill I hadn't had the chance to try out, and starting a new character based on that skill. What's "stale" or "dated concept" for some, is actually the core of the game for others.
But apparently I'm in the minority, so it makes sense that D3 doesn't appeal to me the way D2 did. It was created for the mayority, and that's completely reasonable.
You know how those whiners and conspiracy theorists annoy you? There's the other kind too. "Fanboys" (I hate that word) that don't let you criticize the game at all, that fill this kinds of threads with flaming, that label anyone that disagrees with them as whiners, even though them present their thoughs in a respectful and understandable way, like the OP did. I was just trying to let the OP know that some of us agree with him.
i started reading his post and theres too much QQ in it that it just seems sad. can you make a list of things you think need to be changed to make D3 how you would see it as an amazing successor?
I sure can, but I suspect you (in a broad sense, not specificaly you) are just going to try and convice me that all the changes I'd make and wrong/not viable/not fun. Besides, most of the complaints I have have been already discussed to death.
You know how those whiners and conspiracy theorists annoy you? There's the other kind too. "Fanboys" (I hate that word) that don't let you criticize the game at all, that fill this kinds of threads with flaming, that label anyone that disagrees with them as whiners, even though them present their thoughs in a respectful and understandable way, like the OP did. I was just trying to let the OP know that some of us agree with him.
I actually found lvl 80+ boring and the leveling up fun but it still gets old. The OP had an opinion and that's fine but if your not going to suggest what could be improved and say "this is how it was and it's better" will cause a lot of criticism in any forum.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I actually found lvl 80+ boring and the leveling up fun but it still gets old. The OP had an opinion and that's fine but if your not going to suggest what could be improved and say "this is how it was and it's better" will cause a lot of criticism in any forum.
I think it was also clear what he wanted. More RPG-ish elements. Choices that are permanent, or at least require a cost to change (I'm thinking respecs).
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
Demons's Souls and Dark Souls are the best ARPGs of the last 10 years and there you have to put stats point and theres no respec. The difference is that those games are hardcore. It's made of a audience that feels happy after dying in a boss because they have found a challenge. It's not made for people that feels frustrated by being beaten down in a game.
Blizz is trying to expand their domaisn even further. They really have to cather a audience that want to play a game without any causality. No deaths, no decisions, no complication. Just go on and feel rewarded by doing nothing. Thats why D3 IS a over simplified game.
I'm not saying this "new audience" are made of pushovers and noobs that should not exist. I think games are a great hobby and everyone deserves to play then, so more accesible games do not mean a bad thing. It's just that people who seeks depth in games will have to look for it somewhere else.
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
Demons's Souls and Dark Souls are the best ARPGs of the last 10 years and there you have to put stats point and theres no respec. The difference is that those games are hardcore. It's made of a audience that feels happy after dying in a boss because they have found a challenge. It's not made for people that feels frustrated by being beaten down in a game.
Blizz is trying to expand their domaisn even further. They really have to cather a audience that want to play a game without any causality. No deaths, no decisions, no complication. Just go on and feel rewarded by doing nothing. Thats why D3 IS a over simplified game.
I'm not saying this "new audience" are made of pushovers and noobs that should not exist. I think games are a great hobby and everyone deserves to play then, so more accesible games do not mean a bad thing. It's just that people who seeks depth in games will have to look for it somewhere else.
You don't think hardcore games get frustrated when they die?
Sounds like you're talking about a group of players you're not a part of, since that's just not true.
Hardcore players are the most dedicated and competitive, they love winning challenges and hate losing.
Just because they get up and try again when everyone else gives up don't mean they get frustrated when they lose...
I think it was also clear what he wanted. More RPG-ish elements. Choices that are permanent, or at least require a cost to change (I'm thinking respecs).
The issue is this series is far from an RPG, yes ARPG are much different than RPG’s. One relies on content, story, character development (personal and combat), and story progression. The lore in the Diablo series is awesome but it’s not a focal point, there is no benefit for someone to have a casual talk with Cain in act 2. ARPG’s are click, smash, kill, get quest, kill, cash in quest, and get gear, repeat.
As suggested earlier you don’t need the system to stop you from sticking with a theme, if you’re going to make it costly to change then just scrap it and roll D2 make a new char all over again. The benefit of restricting respecs was replay ability, if the game provide enough content to fill people’s time, this mechanic is no longer required and honestly I don’t want to redo 500 characters again, been there done that.
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
I can agree to you on that aspect but the rune approach is an evolution from static cookie cutter skill trees. The major flaw with D2 is stats had no meaning, they do in D3 so removal of automation would likely be very beneficial for the hardcore gamer; in fact that might be an option to implement in hardcore mode… would be interesting.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I think auto allocated stats was a idea by Blizzard to put even more emphasis on items to customize your character. In addition, it was also to protect players from totally botching their builds and having to either restart or constantly respec to try and find what is 'perfect'.
I guess I don't see how that's viewed as "dumbing the game down" or "taking out an RPG element of the game".
If you don't like a game and the primary reason you can find to dislike it is that it auto allocates your stat points... then that sounds like a pretty damn good game to me.
I see why they did what they did, and in playing the beta, it feels great to not have to reroll to try new skills out, or a new piece of gear. I think this is the more fun way to play the game at first.
However, I do agree that the replayability was ocmpletely gutted, and I just dont see d3 having the lifespan of d2 because of that. As tedious as the reroll was, that was probably what I spent most of my time doing in d2. Every time I got that new piece of gear, I would reroll my bowazon. Over and over.
While this was kind of tedious(it was still fun)it is where most of the replayability came from. Who seriously ran Baal runs for 5 hours a day? Hell most people botted items anyways, and just rolled characters.
Not to mention, not everyone wants to level every hero in the game. The WD does not interest me in the slightest, neither does a mage or barb since I have played those types since diablo 1.
People are forgetting this isnt World of warcraft. There isnt going to be content patches released. There will be expansions, but those are gonna come extremely late. Look at starcraft 2 expansions. You have to expect a content expansion at the very least 2-3 years after release.
I do think all the things they added were better for a game right now. They are a much better here and now fix. They will however negatively affect the game's longetivity and general life.
If you start later in the game's life you will probably miss out on parties and players for the majority of the game until hell/inferno, unless you are a Hardcore player. Just like wow, all the stuff they added that did make the game easier and better overall, made the world dead as hell, and made entire game happen from town. Very few people out in the world. Diablo 3 is gonna be very similar. People will not be rerolling characters, so you will be playing single player all the way up to boss runs in inferno if you start late.
I wont be playing this near as long as I played d2, and its a fact from the way the game is built. While its fun, and better this way, all the replayability outside hardcore and boss runs was took out, however tedious that aspect may have looked/been.
What's "stale" or "dated concept" for some, is actually the core of the game for others.
This is actually a very interesting point you've brought up. So far I've been firmly on the one side since they announced D3, every morsel of information has been brilliantly exciting (all except for the unattuned runes, of course). So, it has been very difficult for me to see eye to eye with people on the opposite spectrum. I understand that there can never be people who like everything, and that's fine, but what has been bugging me is how mercilessly people have been attacking Blizzard's tireless work and those who support it.
I also hate the term fanboy. People who use it make it seem wrong to be a fan of something. We are all fans of something or another.
Nah, don't worry, you didn't flame much. My rant was more aimed towards these sort of people who don't grant others the chance to be excited about the game and work so hard to ruin their anticipation. I apologize if it seemed like I singled you out, that was not my intention.
The benefit of restricting respecs was replay ability, if the game provide enough content to fill people’s time, this mechanic is no longer required
That is my main concen about free respecs. Maybe RPG elements don't belong in Diablo (I'm not saying this is true) but you have to admit they did add replayability.
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
Well i guess i am fool and inexperienced to think that it works way better than it worked in Diablo 2. Blizz as well, damn those fools.
This is actually a very interesting point you've brought up. So far I've been firmly on the one side since they announced D3, every morsel of information has been brilliantly exciting (all except for the unattuned runes, of course). So, it has been very difficult for me to see eye to eye with people on the opposite spectrum. I understand that there can never be people who like everything, and that's fine, but what has been bugging me is how mercilessly people have been attacking Blizzard's tireless work and those who support it.
I also hate the term fanboy. People who use it make it seem wrong to be a fan of something. We are all fans of something or another.
Nah, don't worry, you didn't flame much. My rant was more aimed towards these sort of people who don't grant others the chance to be excited about the game and work so hard to ruin their anticipation. I apologize if it seemed like I singled you out, that was not my intention.
Nice to see someone who can have a reasonable discussion. And no, I didn't feel singled out, I don't think I complain so much as to be annoying xD. I'm also playing the Devil's Advocate (I have no idea if this is how you use that expression.) I do like most of the mechanics in D3, there are just a few that annoy me.
OP hasn't posted since the topic started, troll thread, should be closed.
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My place really was here. I was too foolish and stubborn to notice. But, what I truly hoped for then was here. Why do I always realize it When I've already lost it.
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
Demons's Souls and Dark Souls are the best ARPGs of the last 10 years and there you have to put stats point and theres no respec. The difference is that those games are hardcore. It's made of a audience that feels happy after dying in a boss because they have found a challenge. It's not made for people that feels frustrated by being beaten down in a game.
Blizz is trying to expand their domaisn even further. They really have to cather a audience that want to play a game without any causality. No deaths, no decisions, no complication. Just go on and feel rewarded by doing nothing. Thats why D3 IS a over simplified game.
I'm not saying this "new audience" are made of pushovers and noobs that should not exist. I think games are a great hobby and everyone deserves to play then, so more accesible games do not mean a bad thing. It's just that people who seeks depth in games will have to look for it somewhere else.
You don't think hardcore games get frustrated when they die?
Sounds like you're talking about a group of players you're not a part of, since that's just not true.
Hardcore players are the most dedicated and competitive, they love winning challenges and hate losing.
Just because they get up and try again when everyone else gives up don't mean they get frustrated when they lose...
The audience i'm talking about it's not hardcore players (in the sense PC players see hardcore players - people that plays 24/7 and beats everyone in multiplayer games). The audience i'm talking about is older players, from an time a game was considered bad just for being easy.
They love winning challenges, true. And chanlenge is only a challenge if it does beats you a couple of times. Seriously, if I win in the first try it's not a game, it's a joke.
Thats why I play hardcore D3 soon as it's available. The game is easy, but beating it in the higest difficulty without a single death may be a challenge.
of course there is a way tomake stat distribution useful and challenging but D3 chose not to do that. yes i think D3 is a more casual game but not more casual than D2 these are games you play if you just want some fun after coming home from work/college and just shut your mind up for a minute and remember D2 was no different.
and i dont think D3 is oversmplyfied just look at all those skills. you have so many skills to choose from it will be much harder to find the best synergies.
and i believe you will have to make stat decisions. not on level up but with every new rare you find.
I know D3 choose to not do that. Imo it's was not the best decision. Just my opnion.
D2 was a game for "shut your mind up" for a minute, true. Still it had decisions and those decisions was what made it a interesting game. In D3 you don't have to make any permanent decisions.. it's not like having an decision at all. A choke point is not a choke point if you can go back and take another road.
I know that those changes will surely make the game better for a lot of people. My girldfriend love games but hate building up characters. Right now D3's customisation is almost like a fps: you just choose a set of weapons before going to battle (skills instead of weapons. Nine instead of three). This will surely make her enjoy diablo a lot more.
But for me those changes are not good. It totally eliminates the thrill of creating a perfect leveling strategy fort a new character. Wich sucks because in RPG the journey is all that matters.
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
Yes, in this case it is an evolution of the old system. Let me explain my reasoning:
In Diablo 2:
Items worked off of attributes, or rather strength and dexterity. You only needed to raise them to get the item you desired, all the rest of your points went into vitality for survivability. Strength didn't really do much for damage overall, and dexterity weren't really needed that much to raise your attack rating (skills covered it far better), while energy had little point to it. So, all you needed attributes for was basically to wear better gear.
In Diablo 3:
The attributes have changed. Attack rating and mana building is gone, and that is a huge evolution of what we had. They are replaced by by precision (to increase crits) and defense (a direct damage mitigation). Instead of items relying on attributes, now your attributes will rely on your items, and as such your builds will rely on your attributes.
Think about it, how many builds are there that functions off of critical strikes. Another example, think of glass cannon, you can take skills like this and then focus on defense to make up for the loss in armor, or you can pump attack and really become a glass cannon, the choice is yours.
As you can see in the examples. Things have really changed and evolved. In D3 you will pick up items and really consider the attribute bonuses they give you. Also, you can now socket items at a cost, which is the new attribute building system, just as runes are the new skill building system. Gone are point build, now we build our characters solely through itemization.
I never really want to respond to these threads, but some times I just can't help it.
First choice treat you like a troll or some one with an honest opinion.
I choose honest opinion.
Why does your entire post not mention Runes? The one / main thing that is "taking the place" of stats and skill trees is the runestone system. If your post is simply to say "I don't like the beta" then I could stop, understand your opinion, and move on with my life. However, you proceed to attack the entire game and say it will have no longevity. The beta, has little replayability (unless like me, you are addicted and slightly insane) for the average person. Its very easy, and theres not much customization. So all of your arguments apply to the Beta.
However, the Rune system is the game changer. It provides VAST, REAL customization. Having spent an insane number of hours creating builds on the Calculator, it seems to be an endless amount of awesome way to build out your character.
I'll give you one thing, being able to switch out your build at the alter "may" end up altering the game in a way that "I" am not in favor of. I have said since August 1st that I wasn't a fan of allowing "freespecs" and I still feel that way. However, if depending on the Rune system, there may very well be enough "commitment" to builds to satisfy even players like you and me. It may be such an undertaking to aquire a good, level 7 rune for your skill, that making a new character could be the better option (if the Stat roll went away if you removed the rune for example).
While of course we don't know if this will be the case, we don't know that it won't either, so EVEN that complaint is not founded yet. Even if changing your spec is as easy as changing out your gear and your runes, my hope and guess is that the effort and commitment it will take to get another "set" of runes for your new build will be a SIGNIFICANT undertaking.
So, if you are actualy a non-troll, I would suggest holding back your judgement till at least act 3 . By that time you'll be knee deep in runes and "hopefully" be thinking"wow.. why did I think this wouldn't rock aain?"
Point building isn't really 'hardcore', it is unforgivably stupid, which is why games add respec options. Blizzard make games with an 'easy to learn, hard to master' philosophy. How that applies in D2 is, you play through once, see where you make mistakes and start over from scratch, rinse repeat. How it applies in D3 is, you play through, collect runes, items and gems, and from there you fit them together and work out builds.
Neither is superior, really, but I prefer the one that doesn't make my 'mistake' characters that I've spent hundreds of hours on useless somewhere down the line.
DUDE I WOULD PLAY THE SAME CHARACTER FIFYT DIFFRENT TIMES!?!?!?!?!??! HAVE YOUNOT HEARD THAT EACH PLAYTHROUHG WILL HAVE DIFFRENT EVENTS?!!?!?!?!?! AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT WANTS TO SEE THEM ALL!!?!?!?!? geeezzeeee
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If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
To me only the story maters As long as it's bad ass and whatnots
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www.myspace.com/mpotatoes for all your Trans Siberian Orchestra listening pleasure
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
I think auto allocated stats was a idea by Blizzard to put even more emphasis on items to customize your character. In addition, it was also to protect players from totally botching their builds and having to either restart or constantly respec to try and find what is 'perfect'.
I guess I don't see how that's viewed as "dumbing the game down" or "taking out an RPG element of the game".
You don't see how "protecting players from totally botching their builds" by removing choice is viewed as "dumbing the game down"?
You yourself said it pretty clearly =p
I personally am not against auto-allocated stats. But I acknowledge that it removes choice, decreases room for error by inexperienced players and thereby, directly, makes it easier for inexperienced players, otherwise referred to as "dumbing down the game".
This. I´m part of the group who is sorely disappointed with the course blizzard took with this game. Besides, instead of making auto allocated stats, why didnt they corrected/created a new funcional stats system??? "oh its broken lets dumb down" smells like lazyness, shame on you blizzard.
I used to love to start a new build and I was very carefull not to make a mistake with it. I was one of those guys who had all possible builds you can imagine, I had at least 4 sorceress and was happy to play/duel with each one of them. It was easy to get lvl 80 in about a week or two, so whats the big deal with making errors in the build. Maybe Im too hardcore for the current generation heh.
Can´t say im excited with d3, it just looks and sounds so lame imho, same thing with sc2, they ruined that franchise for me...I really hope I´m wrong and the game turns out to be real good though, wishful thinking I guess...
Saying auto allocative stats is evolution is foolshness in extreme level. Saying it doesn't work just show how inexperienced you're. I can say multiple games were stats worked fine (including D1).
Yes, in this case it is an evolution of the old system. Let me explain my reasoning:
In Diablo 2:
Items worked off of attributes, or rather strength and dexterity. You only needed to raise them to get the item you desired, all the rest of your points went into vitality for survivability. Strength didn't really do much for damage overall, and dexterity weren't really needed that much to raise your attack rating (skills covered it far better), while energy had little point to it. So, all you needed attributes for was basically to wear better gear.
In Diablo 3:
The attributes have changed. Attack rating and mana building is gone, and that is a huge evolution of what we had. They are replaced by by precision (to increase crits) and defense (a direct damage mitigation). Instead of items relying on attributes, now your attributes will rely on your items, and as such your builds will rely on your attributes.
Think about it, how many builds are there that functions off of critical strikes. Another example, think of glass cannon, you can take skills like this and then focus on defense to make up for the loss in armor, or you can pump attack and really become a glass cannon, the choice is yours.
As you can see in the examples. Things have really changed and evolved. In D3 you will pick up items and really consider the attribute bonuses they give you. Also, you can now socket items at a cost, which is the new attribute building system, just as runes are the new skill building system. Gone are point build, now we build our characters solely through itemization.
1. Before LoD STR and DEX increased your damage significantly.
2. Atributes to wear better gear is not a broken system, far from it. Whats is broken in D2 is not the stats system but the items. The item that ask the highest amount of STr is not the strongest one. You can actually ignore stats req. Socket runewords in low requeriment items (thats actually the best strategy). The fact that a axe with 138 STR requeriment is better then a 253 STR requeirment maul is what makes D2's a broken game.
3. Mana potions and free tp made energy useless.
Thins have evolved, obviously. If D3 had D2 broken system it would be terrible game! But what was broken in D2 is not the fact that you allocate stats, is that the rest of the game does not correspond to this design.
So D3 didn't fixed anything by removing stats allocation. They remade the entire system, into one that we can't judge yet.
I'm just saying they could have kept stats allocation and still made a good game. This new system have several aspects that I dislike (wizard using the same armor/weapon os the barbarian without any spell damage penalty; leveling up without any relevant character update).
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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Please close troll post nothing else to discuss…
I know, I wasn't tring to flame, though I admit it came out a little disrespectful. I'm not saying that everyone who likes the direction of the D3 is an idiot or anything of the sort, or that just because I don't like a mechanic, nobody should, not at all. I'm happy that the majority like the game, and I can understand why. Blizz's reasons for the changes are sensible, but there are bound to be some people still not conviced, and I'm one of them. As it is, D3 is a great game, but if I had no idea that D3 existed, and you asked me "What would make an ideal Diablo III?", my answer would differ greatly from the current state of the game.
I think our main difference is what we enjoyed about D2. I hear (read) a lot of people saying that D2 was about getting the best items, that everything below lvl 80 was boring, that singleplayer was a waste of time, etc. I never even bet Hell yet. I've never crafted a runeword (other that Ral - Ort - Tal). I've never player online, just with friends over LAN, and that wasn't often. For me, D2 was about leveling, about choosing my build and sticking with it, about realizing there was a great skill I hadn't had the chance to try out, and starting a new character based on that skill. What's "stale" or "dated concept" for some, is actually the core of the game for others.
But apparently I'm in the minority, so it makes sense that D3 doesn't appeal to me the way D2 did. It was created for the mayority, and that's completely reasonable.
You know how those whiners and conspiracy theorists annoy you? There's the other kind too. "Fanboys" (I hate that word) that don't let you criticize the game at all, that fill this kinds of threads with flaming, that label anyone that disagrees with them as whiners, even though them present their thoughs in a respectful and understandable way, like the OP did. I was just trying to let the OP know that some of us agree with him.
I sure can, but I suspect you (in a broad sense, not specificaly you) are just going to try and convice me that all the changes I'd make and wrong/not viable/not fun. Besides, most of the complaints I have have been already discussed to death.
I actually found lvl 80+ boring and the leveling up fun but it still gets old. The OP had an opinion and that's fine but if your not going to suggest what could be improved and say "this is how it was and it's better" will cause a lot of criticism in any forum.
I think it was also clear what he wanted. More RPG-ish elements. Choices that are permanent, or at least require a cost to change (I'm thinking respecs).
Demons's Souls and Dark Souls are the best ARPGs of the last 10 years and there you have to put stats point and theres no respec. The difference is that those games are hardcore. It's made of a audience that feels happy after dying in a boss because they have found a challenge. It's not made for people that feels frustrated by being beaten down in a game.
Blizz is trying to expand their domaisn even further. They really have to cather a audience that want to play a game without any causality. No deaths, no decisions, no complication. Just go on and feel rewarded by doing nothing. Thats why D3 IS a over simplified game.
I'm not saying this "new audience" are made of pushovers and noobs that should not exist. I think games are a great hobby and everyone deserves to play then, so more accesible games do not mean a bad thing. It's just that people who seeks depth in games will have to look for it somewhere else.
You don't think hardcore games get frustrated when they die?
Sounds like you're talking about a group of players you're not a part of, since that's just not true.
Hardcore players are the most dedicated and competitive, they love winning challenges and hate losing.
Just because they get up and try again when everyone else gives up don't mean they get frustrated when they lose...
As suggested earlier you don’t need the system to stop you from sticking with a theme, if you’re going to make it costly to change then just scrap it and roll D2 make a new char all over again. The benefit of restricting respecs was replay ability, if the game provide enough content to fill people’s time, this mechanic is no longer required and honestly I don’t want to redo 500 characters again, been there done that.
I can agree to you on that aspect but the rune approach is an evolution from static cookie cutter skill trees. The major flaw with D2 is stats had no meaning, they do in D3 so removal of automation would likely be very beneficial for the hardcore gamer; in fact that might be an option to implement in hardcore mode… would be interesting.
I guess I don't see how that's viewed as "dumbing the game down" or "taking out an RPG element of the game".
If you don't like a game and the primary reason you can find to dislike it is that it auto allocates your stat points... then that sounds like a pretty damn good game to me.
I see why they did what they did, and in playing the beta, it feels great to not have to reroll to try new skills out, or a new piece of gear. I think this is the more fun way to play the game at first.
However, I do agree that the replayability was ocmpletely gutted, and I just dont see d3 having the lifespan of d2 because of that. As tedious as the reroll was, that was probably what I spent most of my time doing in d2. Every time I got that new piece of gear, I would reroll my bowazon. Over and over.
While this was kind of tedious(it was still fun)it is where most of the replayability came from. Who seriously ran Baal runs for 5 hours a day? Hell most people botted items anyways, and just rolled characters.
Not to mention, not everyone wants to level every hero in the game. The WD does not interest me in the slightest, neither does a mage or barb since I have played those types since diablo 1.
People are forgetting this isnt World of warcraft. There isnt going to be content patches released. There will be expansions, but those are gonna come extremely late. Look at starcraft 2 expansions. You have to expect a content expansion at the very least 2-3 years after release.
I do think all the things they added were better for a game right now. They are a much better here and now fix. They will however negatively affect the game's longetivity and general life.
If you start later in the game's life you will probably miss out on parties and players for the majority of the game until hell/inferno, unless you are a Hardcore player. Just like wow, all the stuff they added that did make the game easier and better overall, made the world dead as hell, and made entire game happen from town. Very few people out in the world. Diablo 3 is gonna be very similar. People will not be rerolling characters, so you will be playing single player all the way up to boss runs in inferno if you start late.
I wont be playing this near as long as I played d2, and its a fact from the way the game is built. While its fun, and better this way, all the replayability outside hardcore and boss runs was took out, however tedious that aspect may have looked/been.
I also hate the term fanboy. People who use it make it seem wrong to be a fan of something. We are all fans of something or another.
Nah, don't worry, you didn't flame much. My rant was more aimed towards these sort of people who don't grant others the chance to be excited about the game and work so hard to ruin their anticipation. I apologize if it seemed like I singled you out, that was not my intention.
Straw man Fallacy. Seriously, read it.
Nice to see someone who can have a reasonable discussion. And no, I didn't feel singled out, I don't think I complain so much as to be annoying xD. I'm also playing the Devil's Advocate (I have no idea if this is how you use that expression.) I do like most of the mechanics in D3, there are just a few that annoy me.
The audience i'm talking about it's not hardcore players (in the sense PC players see hardcore players - people that plays 24/7 and beats everyone in multiplayer games). The audience i'm talking about is older players, from an time a game was considered bad just for being easy.
They love winning challenges, true. And chanlenge is only a challenge if it does beats you a couple of times. Seriously, if I win in the first try it's not a game, it's a joke.
Thats why I play hardcore D3 soon as it's available. The game is easy, but beating it in the higest difficulty without a single death may be a challenge.
I know D3 choose to not do that. Imo it's was not the best decision. Just my opnion.
D2 was a game for "shut your mind up" for a minute, true. Still it had decisions and those decisions was what made it a interesting game. In D3 you don't have to make any permanent decisions.. it's not like having an decision at all. A choke point is not a choke point if you can go back and take another road.
I know that those changes will surely make the game better for a lot of people. My girldfriend love games but hate building up characters. Right now D3's customisation is almost like a fps: you just choose a set of weapons before going to battle (skills instead of weapons. Nine instead of three). This will surely make her enjoy diablo a lot more.
But for me those changes are not good. It totally eliminates the thrill of creating a perfect leveling strategy fort a new character. Wich sucks because in RPG the journey is all that matters.
In Diablo 2:
Items worked off of attributes, or rather strength and dexterity. You only needed to raise them to get the item you desired, all the rest of your points went into vitality for survivability. Strength didn't really do much for damage overall, and dexterity weren't really needed that much to raise your attack rating (skills covered it far better), while energy had little point to it. So, all you needed attributes for was basically to wear better gear.
In Diablo 3:
The attributes have changed. Attack rating and mana building is gone, and that is a huge evolution of what we had. They are replaced by by precision (to increase crits) and defense (a direct damage mitigation). Instead of items relying on attributes, now your attributes will rely on your items, and as such your builds will rely on your attributes.
Think about it, how many builds are there that functions off of critical strikes. Another example, think of glass cannon, you can take skills like this and then focus on defense to make up for the loss in armor, or you can pump attack and really become a glass cannon, the choice is yours.
As you can see in the examples. Things have really changed and evolved. In D3 you will pick up items and really consider the attribute bonuses they give you. Also, you can now socket items at a cost, which is the new attribute building system, just as runes are the new skill building system. Gone are point build, now we build our characters solely through itemization.
First choice treat you like a troll or some one with an honest opinion.
I choose honest opinion.
Why does your entire post not mention Runes? The one / main thing that is "taking the place" of stats and skill trees is the runestone system. If your post is simply to say "I don't like the beta" then I could stop, understand your opinion, and move on with my life. However, you proceed to attack the entire game and say it will have no longevity. The beta, has little replayability (unless like me, you are addicted and slightly insane) for the average person. Its very easy, and theres not much customization. So all of your arguments apply to the Beta.
However, the Rune system is the game changer. It provides VAST, REAL customization. Having spent an insane number of hours creating builds on the Calculator, it seems to be an endless amount of awesome way to build out your character.
I'll give you one thing, being able to switch out your build at the alter "may" end up altering the game in a way that "I" am not in favor of. I have said since August 1st that I wasn't a fan of allowing "freespecs" and I still feel that way. However, if depending on the Rune system, there may very well be enough "commitment" to builds to satisfy even players like you and me. It may be such an undertaking to aquire a good, level 7 rune for your skill, that making a new character could be the better option (if the Stat roll went away if you removed the rune for example).
While of course we don't know if this will be the case, we don't know that it won't either, so EVEN that complaint is not founded yet. Even if changing your spec is as easy as changing out your gear and your runes, my hope and guess is that the effort and commitment it will take to get another "set" of runes for your new build will be a SIGNIFICANT undertaking.
So, if you are actualy a non-troll, I would suggest holding back your judgement till at least act 3 . By that time you'll be knee deep in runes and "hopefully" be thinking"wow.. why did I think this wouldn't rock aain?"
Neither is superior, really, but I prefer the one that doesn't make my 'mistake' characters that I've spent hundreds of hours on useless somewhere down the line.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
This. I´m part of the group who is sorely disappointed with the course blizzard took with this game. Besides, instead of making auto allocated stats, why didnt they corrected/created a new funcional stats system??? "oh its broken lets dumb down" smells like lazyness, shame on you blizzard.
I used to love to start a new build and I was very carefull not to make a mistake with it. I was one of those guys who had all possible builds you can imagine, I had at least 4 sorceress and was happy to play/duel with each one of them. It was easy to get lvl 80 in about a week or two, so whats the big deal with making errors in the build. Maybe Im too hardcore for the current generation heh.
Can´t say im excited with d3, it just looks and sounds so lame imho, same thing with sc2, they ruined that franchise for me...I really hope I´m wrong and the game turns out to be real good though, wishful thinking I guess...
1. Before LoD STR and DEX increased your damage significantly.
2. Atributes to wear better gear is not a broken system, far from it. Whats is broken in D2 is not the stats system but the items. The item that ask the highest amount of STr is not the strongest one. You can actually ignore stats req. Socket runewords in low requeriment items (thats actually the best strategy). The fact that a axe with 138 STR requeriment is better then a 253 STR requeirment maul is what makes D2's a broken game.
3. Mana potions and free tp made energy useless.
Thins have evolved, obviously. If D3 had D2 broken system it would be terrible game! But what was broken in D2 is not the fact that you allocate stats, is that the rest of the game does not correspond to this design.
So D3 didn't fixed anything by removing stats allocation. They remade the entire system, into one that we can't judge yet.
I'm just saying they could have kept stats allocation and still made a good game. This new system have several aspects that I dislike (wizard using the same armor/weapon os the barbarian without any spell damage penalty; leveling up without any relevant character update).