I recall it being Blizzard's stated design goal for the best rares to be better than the best uniques. Having flipped through even the small selection of the 'legendary' items listed on D3 website, I'm going to guess that they've abandoned this goal.
I will admit to be being a bit discouraged by this development. Anyone who played D2 prior to the XPAC must surely remember how cool it was to look for high level rares in Act 4 Hell. Almost any high-level base item that dropped with a yellow name was cause for excitement; if it was a yellow Executioner's Sword (at least in hardcore), you were over the moon. Post XPAC, it was barely worth your time to pick up a rare item. Unique or bust. And, frankly, that was a TERRIBLE change for the game. I can't believe how many folks in other item threads want there to be all sorts of uber-powerful abilities tied to Legendary items (and not to other items) so as to actually make them feel "legendary". IT's classic first-order thinking to say "wouldn't it be cool if!..." without then asking if it would upset other aspects of the game; given my experience in D2, I am very comfortable saying that having uber legendaries would hurt D3 immensely.
Finally, recall that having rare items drive itemization resulted in a vastly wider array of builds in D2 pre xpac (especially pre-lance) than we saw post, especially once all the uber-uniques were duped. More flexibility = more fun, in my view. I hope the developers don't fall into the trap of wanting to make manifest their fantasies of the world's most awesome [sword], etc...
To Blizzard: Take a step back, guys! You don't need to try to create the 'best' tier of gear. Randomness will set you free!
I hope the same as you, but still holding my breath.
It's not the final release yet, more items could be added still, including different, stronger rares.
The one thing about diablo 2, was that uniques were most definitely NOT unique.
Though some crafted orange items were better than the better uniques, still, most mf sorcs used the same gear, or tried to get it. Most hammerdins used the same gear, most druids tried to get the same gear, etc etc.
It was a bad point of the game, and I hope D3 will offer a LOT more diversity in what the "best" items are.
It gives people something to think about whether to use an item or not, instead of "oh, im a sorc, I NEED this item because its the best". And thus all items that are not THAT item are generally considered worthless.
I would say that getting a Rare Archon piece of armor in Inferno will rival and surpass legendaries. We really don't have alot to go off of to say what is going to be better than what. All the "Random" properties on the items keeps us in the dark on alot of what the legendaries may offer.
This is an expected but still problematic reply. Of COURSE it's true that I'm jumping to conclusions based on a very limited set of information. If Blizz were to release the complete item modifier table (and all the uniques/set pieces), then surely we could have a much more informed discussion. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that one.
The problem is is that if I wait (so as to be certain), it will in all likelihood be much, much too late. The game will be out, and these sorts of issues will no longer be addressable. So if I want to have even the slightest chance of influencing the final design of the game, I have no choice but to say something now. And based on what has been presented in the past 24 hours, I think it's fair to say that Blizz has *probably* made a design choice that will make legendary items the best items in the game... and, in my opinion, that's a mistake. No one wants to see a rare item drop and think "well, there's no chance of that being the best item... bummer". LEaving the build flexibility issue aside (even though I think it's the most important), I can say from experience that it's *much* more fun when every dropped rare high-level base item makes your heart beat faster. Legendary or bust for elite players is, in my opinion, a very bad design choice.
Rares TOTALLY have the potential to beat out the uniques. Some of the highest level rares the blacksmith can craft have +6 Random affixes, which could all be perfect for the playstyle you are looking for. Of course, getting all six to be the ones you want will take large amounts of gold and time, but that's what is fun.
This is an expected but still problematic reply. Of COURSE it's true that I'm jumping to conclusions based on a very limited set of information. If Blizz were to release the complete item modifier table (and all the uniques/set pieces), then surely we could have a much more informed discussion. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that one.
But alas, you have to. Either that or hope to post on the official forums and expect a blue to come and say you're right. As they've shown before, feedback based on theory (and not on actually playing the game) isn't very important to them, so I feel you might be wasting your breath.
The problem is is that if I wait (so as to be certain), it will in all likelihood be much, much too late. The game will be out, and these sorts of issues will no longer be addressable.
Blizzard themselves said they'll be patching content as needed. So it's still solveable, if it's confirmed to be a gameplay issue (and not a matter of whether someone prefers rares over legendaries, or D2 vanilla over LoD).
And I fear the playerbase is extremely divided on this issue (I for one believe Legendaries should have unique attributes, but base-stats wise Rares should be able to compete with them, to create a 50/50 situation), and since it's such a subjective issue whatever path they choose we will all have to follow.
My 2 cents (more like 2 dollars considering the size of the post).
Blizzard simply stated Rares and Legendaries will be like they were in Diablo 2. So, unless you played the game, it's a little hard to explain. Essentially, Legendaries at their core are supposed to be better than rares, but in very, VERY special conditions, a rare with 6 desirable mods that are also high in their random value will make the rare the best item in the game.
Kind of worth mentioning that even legendaries and set items have random properties, so one way or another randomization will play a serious role in a process of aquiring items. Personally i hope that attributes will be destributed according to lvl requirement so sum of stats will be the same for rares, legendaries and set items. The more options, the better.
Am I allowed to admit that my preference would be for legendaries not to exist at all?
Sure
I just hope you're willing to admit the whole Rare vs Legendaries preference is based a lot on our opinion on how Fixed vs Random the game should be.
A thousand times, yes. I would admit that all day long. And, for reasons of flexibility and excitement (as articulated in earlier posts), I'm inclined to think that random >> fixed. But game designers, like politicians, often can't help themselves. They love their vision so much that they're going to impose it on the rest of us, whether we want it or not! (Though at least game designers are responsible for the parts of the game that *work* as well!)
Kind of worth mentioning that even legendaries and set items have random properties...
This.
Even though most legendary weapons have fewer random properties (usually one or two), those could be all the difference in the world in terms of how the weapon shapes up. If a really great melee weapon rolls an additional '+% enhanced damage' for its random it will far surpass just about anything else.
The other side of this is that weapons of all types have a chance to be extremely different, even for the exact same legendary. If you get a legendary axe that rolls with '+ casting speed', it will be sought after by a very different group than one that rolled '+ crit damage'. Because of the random properties, legendaries should be extremely varied.
This means that the items will support your playstyle - not dictate it. This was a big trapping in D2's gameplay. The vast majority of builds relied on specific pieces of gear before you could even get started with a certain playstyle. In D3, you can pick the gear that works for your playstyle from the get-go. After playing D2 for eleven years, I see this as an improvement.
And, as stated above, if you get really lucky then crafted and rare items have the potential to be absolutely nuts if they roll the way you want them to be.
Kind of worth mentioning that even legendaries and set items have random properties...
This.
Even though most legendary weapons have fewer random properties (usually one or two), those could be all the difference in the world in terms of how the weapon shapes up. If a really great melee weapon rolls an additional '+% enhanced damage' for its random it will far surpass just about anything else.
The other side of this is that weapons of all types have a chance to be extremely different, even for the exact same legendary. If you get a legendary axe that rolls with '+ casting speed', it will be sought after by a very different group than one that rolled '+ crit damage'. Because of the random properties, legendaries should be extremely varied.
This means that the items will support your playstyle - not dictate it. This was a big trapping in D2's gameplay. The vast majority of builds relied on specific pieces of gear before you could even get started with a certain playstyle. In D3, you can pick the gear that works for your playstyle from the get-go. After playing D2 for eleven years, I see this as an improvement.
And, as stated above, if you get really lucky then crafted and rare items have the potential to be absolutely nuts if they roll the way you want them to be.
I agree with most of what you've said here, but think that you're missing a big point: if some legendary items have such immensely awesome base stats (or unique modifiers) that the best, say, 1h weapon is going to be some version of "Jay's Wilson" (a legendary 1h sword), then you wind up in the 'legendary or bust' situation again. Part of the point here is that I want there to be a lot of excitement when a rare high level base item drops. IF a player is disappointed because he knows that non-orange necessarily means sub-optimal, well, that's a bad outcome in my opinion.
It was as recently as Gamescom that they said the best rares will beat legendaries wasn't it? I doubt their stance has changed on that.
That said, rolling a top end rare is a huge shot in the dark. The main reason legendaries look so awesome is that they don't waste modifiers. Getting all the modifiers on a rare to be modifiers you want is an extremely unlikely scenario. But anyway, I'm fine with the system as is.
The crafting system allowing players to recycle rares and magics (and legendaries) into new items makes it so that no drops are wasted. The large inventories and in the field selling and salvaging just makes it easier for players to pick up everything and put it to use somehow. Breaking down and crafting rares is going to be a huge gold sink, which is needed if gold is to remain valuable.
I expect there to be some overlap in quality. Top-end magics will beat some rares. Top-end rares will beat some legendaries. At the very high-end, perfect legendaries and perfect rares will be about the same, with a slight edge to rares.
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I will admit to be being a bit discouraged by this development. Anyone who played D2 prior to the XPAC must surely remember how cool it was to look for high level rares in Act 4 Hell. Almost any high-level base item that dropped with a yellow name was cause for excitement; if it was a yellow Executioner's Sword (at least in hardcore), you were over the moon. Post XPAC, it was barely worth your time to pick up a rare item. Unique or bust. And, frankly, that was a TERRIBLE change for the game. I can't believe how many folks in other item threads want there to be all sorts of uber-powerful abilities tied to Legendary items (and not to other items) so as to actually make them feel "legendary". IT's classic first-order thinking to say "wouldn't it be cool if!..." without then asking if it would upset other aspects of the game; given my experience in D2, I am very comfortable saying that having uber legendaries would hurt D3 immensely.
Finally, recall that having rare items drive itemization resulted in a vastly wider array of builds in D2 pre xpac (especially pre-lance) than we saw post, especially once all the uber-uniques were duped. More flexibility = more fun, in my view. I hope the developers don't fall into the trap of wanting to make manifest their fantasies of the world's most awesome [sword], etc...
To Blizzard: Take a step back, guys! You don't need to try to create the 'best' tier of gear. Randomness will set you free!
It's not the final release yet, more items could be added still, including different, stronger rares.
The one thing about diablo 2, was that uniques were most definitely NOT unique.
Though some crafted orange items were better than the better uniques, still, most mf sorcs used the same gear, or tried to get it. Most hammerdins used the same gear, most druids tried to get the same gear, etc etc.
It was a bad point of the game, and I hope D3 will offer a LOT more diversity in what the "best" items are.
It gives people something to think about whether to use an item or not, instead of "oh, im a sorc, I NEED this item because its the best". And thus all items that are not THAT item are generally considered worthless.
Author of: Random Ravings of Warcraft
Wait until release.
This is an expected but still problematic reply. Of COURSE it's true that I'm jumping to conclusions based on a very limited set of information. If Blizz were to release the complete item modifier table (and all the uniques/set pieces), then surely we could have a much more informed discussion. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that one.
The problem is is that if I wait (so as to be certain), it will in all likelihood be much, much too late. The game will be out, and these sorts of issues will no longer be addressable. So if I want to have even the slightest chance of influencing the final design of the game, I have no choice but to say something now. And based on what has been presented in the past 24 hours, I think it's fair to say that Blizz has *probably* made a design choice that will make legendary items the best items in the game... and, in my opinion, that's a mistake. No one wants to see a rare item drop and think "well, there's no chance of that being the best item... bummer". LEaving the build flexibility issue aside (even though I think it's the most important), I can say from experience that it's *much* more fun when every dropped rare high-level base item makes your heart beat faster. Legendary or bust for elite players is, in my opinion, a very bad design choice.
Pumpkin Contest Submission:
http://habeasporpoise.deviantart.com/art/Diablo-3-Pumpkin-263477540
Blizzard themselves said they'll be patching content as needed. So it's still solveable, if it's confirmed to be a gameplay issue (and not a matter of whether someone prefers rares over legendaries, or D2 vanilla over LoD).
And I fear the playerbase is extremely divided on this issue (I for one believe Legendaries should have unique attributes, but base-stats wise Rares should be able to compete with them, to create a 50/50 situation), and since it's such a subjective issue whatever path they choose we will all have to follow.
My 2 cents (more like 2 dollars considering the size of the post).
I just hope you're willing to admit the whole Rare vs Legendaries preference is based a lot on our opinion on how Fixed vs Random the game should be.
A thousand times, yes. I would admit that all day long. And, for reasons of flexibility and excitement (as articulated in earlier posts), I'm inclined to think that random >> fixed. But game designers, like politicians, often can't help themselves. They love their vision so much that they're going to impose it on the rest of us, whether we want it or not! (Though at least game designers are responsible for the parts of the game that *work* as well!)
This.
Even though most legendary weapons have fewer random properties (usually one or two), those could be all the difference in the world in terms of how the weapon shapes up. If a really great melee weapon rolls an additional '+% enhanced damage' for its random it will far surpass just about anything else.
The other side of this is that weapons of all types have a chance to be extremely different, even for the exact same legendary. If you get a legendary axe that rolls with '+ casting speed', it will be sought after by a very different group than one that rolled '+ crit damage'. Because of the random properties, legendaries should be extremely varied.
This means that the items will support your playstyle - not dictate it. This was a big trapping in D2's gameplay. The vast majority of builds relied on specific pieces of gear before you could even get started with a certain playstyle. In D3, you can pick the gear that works for your playstyle from the get-go. After playing D2 for eleven years, I see this as an improvement.
And, as stated above, if you get really lucky then crafted and rare items have the potential to be absolutely nuts if they roll the way you want them to be.
I agree with most of what you've said here, but think that you're missing a big point: if some legendary items have such immensely awesome base stats (or unique modifiers) that the best, say, 1h weapon is going to be some version of "Jay's Wilson" (a legendary 1h sword), then you wind up in the 'legendary or bust' situation again. Part of the point here is that I want there to be a lot of excitement when a rare high level base item drops. IF a player is disappointed because he knows that non-orange necessarily means sub-optimal, well, that's a bad outcome in my opinion.
That said, rolling a top end rare is a huge shot in the dark. The main reason legendaries look so awesome is that they don't waste modifiers. Getting all the modifiers on a rare to be modifiers you want is an extremely unlikely scenario. But anyway, I'm fine with the system as is.
The crafting system allowing players to recycle rares and magics (and legendaries) into new items makes it so that no drops are wasted. The large inventories and in the field selling and salvaging just makes it easier for players to pick up everything and put it to use somehow. Breaking down and crafting rares is going to be a huge gold sink, which is needed if gold is to remain valuable.
I expect there to be some overlap in quality. Top-end magics will beat some rares. Top-end rares will beat some legendaries. At the very high-end, perfect legendaries and perfect rares will be about the same, with a slight edge to rares.