I really like the current approach. Placing restrictions and limits on how I play a game is annoying.
I know some people like everything in an RPG to be a huge pain in the ass. Thats fine, play the game you like. If you feel like its cheap to beat content by switching skills, then don't. It's your character and you can play him however you like. Hell for all I care play the entire game without runes, gear, or a keyboard. Don't respec, and if you die, delete your account and buy a new copy of the game before you let yourself restart. Cmon, you want it to be hard right? Grow a pair and make it HARD. While your at it, refuse to play without a blindfold on. Have your friend or family member try to guide you where to go. Make sure he occasionally lies to you, so you spend hours shooting fireballs at a wall. You wanted a challenge right? Better just cut off your hands, and play with the stubs. CMON MAN YOU WANTED A CHALLENGE RIGHT?
But seriously... I like fun, approachable, non-punishing games. The currently suggested system where a player can make quick, easy changes, to adapt to whatever situation there in appeals to me. Why? Because the real world has a lot of challenges to it already.
Amen bro, this is a fracking video game. The challenges are already there; inferno mode ya'll. If I want restrictions on everything I do, and zero experimentation on something that I MIGHT find more fun, but alas has such a bad cooldown/restriction/slap to the balls that I won't try it, then I'll go play diablo 1.
If we can switch skills on the go, then there is less incentive for Blizzard to make it so that we didn't have to switch skills to overcome certain bosses (like, k, endurance boss fight here, hey barb go switch to all defensive and life regen active/passives and tank him for us).
Having to respec before every boss fight will be tedious - so I hope you have to respec in town, and that it costs a ton of gold eventually (based on the character level idea others mentioned).
I don't want people asking me to respec because some set of skills is better for the team, and I don't want to feel guilty for not respeccing to the best set for the team structure every single time I enter a game with three other players.
i'm...confused. So you DON'T want blizz to make fights interesting and different, so that you MIGHT want to take that one escape skill that's useful? Also, if you don't want to be a team player for 'whats better for the team', then make a single player game sir. There are no tank or healers, so while I doubt any one encounter will require you to absolutely have seven sided slap, I still like the idea where something might pop up that it's more useful =D
Well, from a subjective point of view I could point out a ton of things that I would consider to be issue, personally I'm no fan of respecs at all. Objectively however I can't say that unrestricted customization is a bad idea, because a lot of people like that. I will disagree with them, but I won't say that it is a problem, not any more than I will say that the existence of soccer is a problem because it takes up too much of what is shown on TV in the evenings.
Also remember that you can always opt to not respec every 5 minutes and say to yourself "I will only respec in town". I'm sure the people you are playing with will understand.
You have a point there. But from the point of simple math, the current system is definitively not something that Blizzard nor I would agree with. This solution is something that could work (for me and Blizzard), as it is, in my opinion, the simplest. What could be the other?
Maybe this could be turned into a discussion about the best possible way to solve this problem.
So far I can think of these:
- The above (only in town)
- Putting a timer on in
- Being locked while in combat (similar to Stone of Recall)
- Being locked while in certain areas
- Buying a respec (like in WoW)
Thoughts?
I think you are crazy; "the current system is defiantly something blizzard nor I would agree with?" I beg your pardon sir, but I'm pretty positive that Blizzard put in the system because they DO agree with it. There's no drawbacks!! Also what are you talking about, the skills will become boring? If that is the case, then NONE of your solutions work because I will just spend a liiiiittle more time/money in respeccing, then be on my mary way. Also it's already stated that it is locked while in combat, past that you people are just scared of something you haven't seen before. "AMG WTF you mean I can do something without a huge penalty?! This HAS to be broken! there's NO WAY players will find this a fun and interesting way to experiment with what skills they like best out of their character that they created!!!"
The second question is IF IT WERE TO BE CHANGED, so even if you have answered the previous question No, you can still vote on the second one on what do you think WOULD be the best if they change it.
Although I do not mind the current system, I do think it could be improved.
I think they are taking a lot for the "decisions" out of the game by giving tons of benefits with little consequences, which is kind of boring (not saying diablo 3 will be boring, but making a tough decision is something I enjoy in games).
I believe they should have some sort of fee for respeccing, perhaps you lose the runes in your current skills, or maybe it takes a percentage of your gold, or a flat fee, or something. That way I have to think "My build isn't as good as it should be, but maybe I can get through one more act before I spend my money and respec to something new that might not be as good or might be way better."
I honestly really liked how the did the respec system in d2, it wasn't hard to find, but that way you couldn't just respec between every fight because Build A isn't good against Monster X, but build B is really good against Monster X, but is sucks against Boss Z, and so does Build A, but Build C is awesome against single targets. What is the fun in that?
What is the point of getting to choose our active and passive skills if every boss fight we have to go back to town and respec to the cookie cutter build?
If respeccing is that easy, it will become a requirement and a chore.
I think that if respec is made a bit harder, it would be done a lot less:
Stays like this -> A lot of repecing, possibly after each encounter, or before.
Locked in areas -> Huge pause before entering those areas
Only in town -> Respecing only when near waypoints and before boss fights
Buying a respec -> Even rarer respec, people deciding between REAL money (as gold can be traded for it) and a repec
Generally speaking, if you don't have to go to town for anything but artisans and quests, people would hesitate going to town just to repec, as that will become less of a focus of the game.
If left unchanged, I can see this issue, some might not call it that, becoming the center point of the game, especially in Inferno and Hell.
2. I voted on the trainer/vendor method. Although this is somewhat of a double answer as i would believe those trainers/vendor can only be found in town (wich was another option is the poll).
The difference is that in the Town-only rule, you can respec while you are anywhere in Town, and don't have to pay gold for it.
I would only like to see the current system changed to be more difficult to change skills for Inferno difficulty, but I'm not really sure how the best way to implement it would be. Being able to change skills between areas or before a boss fight could potentially make things much easier as you can specialize your character's strengths and minimize their weaknesses to your current objective. By making it hard to change skills it'd force players to have more well rounded builds or rely on their teammates to fill in for their weaknesses. I just can't really think of a way to do that without punishing players for making a mistake and/or being too time consuming.
As far as I know, this is the first topic that mentions in-town-only respec.
Quote from Bashiok »
2011/09/29 01:27:00 AM
We have no idea how the unattuned system is going to work. Or if it'll end up working at all. We're trying out some different options, but we're not likely to reveal much until we're more certain. Maybe it'll be something we feel comfortable discussing at BlizzCon? ... maybe not.
On a slightly related (?) note we're playing around with having skill swapping locked to being in-town only. We're definitely not sold on it, but it could appear at some time in a beta patch, so FYI. Just be aware it's only something we're trying, and not a permanent solution.
"Easy mode" should be limited to the point in the game when you are gaining new skills at a pace which makes wanting to "try something new" a real reason for respec - in other words during the first 20 levels you get skills fast enough that you might now want to go back to town to switch because the new stuff is coming fast and furious.
After that respec is not a decision to try somthing new but a tactic to achieve certain short term goals - if you need new skills for the next area a 20 second trip back to town is not reall a burden. Switching for every encounter is stupid and outside what Diablo was historically about.
The problem blizzard has stated and people generally complain about: switching skills during combat to create a sort of full use of a characters skills- not what the devs wanted thats why they only gave us 6 skill slots.
A solution that wasn't on the polls "an unwary penalty": Character takes double (or triple) damage whenever their skill pane or inventory pane is open (maybe even extend the penalty to 5 seconds after pane closes).
Problem solved now characters don't have to go back to town to swap skills but they also won't want to swap skills during combat. All they have to do is move far away from any danger and swap.
As for boss fights, they may just want to lock the skill bar for that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
I guess I don't understand the issue. If you don't like the current system, then simply don't switch out your skills. If people you're grouping with do switch out, you don't have to wait for them and you can choose to ignore them after that.
Everyone has different play styles, why do you have to force everyone to use your particular play style? Also, all beta footage we have seen about switching skills is on Act 1 Normal. Even on normal, the mobs are usually getting a few shots in while you change skills in combat. Do you seriously think you can switch out skills in combat and not get killed in Hell/Inferno? And if you play with friends, you can easily pop to town and teleport back using a friend's banner for Boss fights.
The current system works. We've all seen the beta footage. There is also no ranking in PvE so why do you care how others choose play the game? You hate the fact that their play style is to adapt to their environment? And in doing so breaks the age old mold of a true winning build?
The concept of builds that was created by Diablo 2 is being re-imagined. Diablo 2 is the game that originated 3 Skill Trees which most RPG's are now mimicking, they also originated the use of skill points as a progression method which we all seem addicted to. Are you so narrow minded that you cannot accept a new system that is really fun to play and that encourages experimentation?
Either of the two options besides leaving it where it is sounds better to me.
Right now, you can switch skills mid-battle, but the process is entirely awkward. Either this should be supported, with skill-set swapping, or not allowed, with a cooldown.
It sounds like the reasons behind this are that the developers don't really want players to switch skills in battle, but don't want to put any limits at all on experimenting. Well, you can't have your wife drunk and your wine in the fridge.
[quote]
On a slightly related (?) note we're playing around with having skill swapping locked to being in-town only. We're definitely not sold on it, but it could appear at some time in a beta patch, so FYI. Just be aware it's only something we're trying, and not a permanent solution.
[\quote]
uses the word 'solution', which to me says that Blizard recognizes a 'problem'.
I guess I don't understand the issue. If you don't like the current system, then simply don't switch out your skills. If people you're grouping with do switch out, you don't have to wait for them and you can choose to ignore them after that.
The problem is that the current system eliminates the need to actually put thought into your build and come up with a cohesive set of 6 skills + runes + 3 passives that defines your play-style. Without a limitation on when and how you can swap skills, the designers' intent to limit you to 6 skills is effectively meaningless.
They way respecs were handled once added to D2 worked well. You got a couple of free ones as you leveled and then could get more via a cube recipe with items dropped from act bosses. Choosing a build was a meaningful decision that involved important trade-offs, but you still had the ability to switch to a different build if you wanted to try something out (just not so often that you could use a specialty build for every situation).
The main drawback with the D2 system is that it didn't handle the early leveling process well as you gained new skills. You basically had to either pick one or more level 1 skills to pump and use through normal difficulty and then respec to your "real" build at level 30, or run around through normal with one point into a level 1 skill killing slowly until you could unlock what you really wanted.
The current system in D3 is a great way to handle the early game and allow player experimentation as they level. I think the best solution would be a hybrid system where you can freely swap skills until level 30 (when you have access to everything) and then must pick a build with respec limitations that discourage swapping to tailor your build to specific encounters. Heck, I'd probably even be OK with allowing the current mechanics up through level 59 and only once you hit the level cap/Inferno do you need to put thought into your build and stick with what you choose.
Restrictions are what lead to interesting game-play choices. If skill selection doesn't have meaningful consequences at some point, then a lot of the experimentation that has kept people playing D2 to this day will be lost and D3 won't have the same longevity. (Maybe some people will say this is just Blizzard's plan to make sure people buy the expansions down the line, but I don't think engineered boredom is something they would or should design for.)
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Amen bro, this is a fracking video game. The challenges are already there; inferno mode ya'll. If I want restrictions on everything I do, and zero experimentation on something that I MIGHT find more fun, but alas has such a bad cooldown/restriction/slap to the balls that I won't try it, then I'll go play diablo 1.
i'm...confused. So you DON'T want blizz to make fights interesting and different, so that you MIGHT want to take that one escape skill that's useful? Also, if you don't want to be a team player for 'whats better for the team', then make a single player game sir. There are no tank or healers, so while I doubt any one encounter will require you to absolutely have seven sided slap, I still like the idea where something might pop up that it's more useful =D
I think you are crazy; "the current system is defiantly something blizzard nor I would agree with?" I beg your pardon sir, but I'm pretty positive that Blizzard put in the system because they DO agree with it. There's no drawbacks!! Also what are you talking about, the skills will become boring? If that is the case, then NONE of your solutions work because I will just spend a liiiiittle more time/money in respeccing, then be on my mary way. Also it's already stated that it is locked while in combat, past that you people are just scared of something you haven't seen before. "AMG WTF you mean I can do something without a huge penalty?! This HAS to be broken! there's NO WAY players will find this a fun and interesting way to experiment with what skills they like best out of their character that they created!!!"
The second question is IF IT WERE TO BE CHANGED, so even if you have answered the previous question No, you can still vote on the second one on what do you think WOULD be the best if they change it.
I think they are taking a lot for the "decisions" out of the game by giving tons of benefits with little consequences, which is kind of boring (not saying diablo 3 will be boring, but making a tough decision is something I enjoy in games).
I believe they should have some sort of fee for respeccing, perhaps you lose the runes in your current skills, or maybe it takes a percentage of your gold, or a flat fee, or something. That way I have to think "My build isn't as good as it should be, but maybe I can get through one more act before I spend my money and respec to something new that might not be as good or might be way better."
I honestly really liked how the did the respec system in d2, it wasn't hard to find, but that way you couldn't just respec between every fight because Build A isn't good against Monster X, but build B is really good against Monster X, but is sucks against Boss Z, and so does Build A, but Build C is awesome against single targets. What is the fun in that?
agree.
Stays like this -> A lot of repecing, possibly after each encounter, or before.
Locked in areas -> Huge pause before entering those areas
Only in town -> Respecing only when near waypoints and before boss fights
Buying a respec -> Even rarer respec, people deciding between REAL money (as gold can be traded for it) and a repec
Generally speaking, if you don't have to go to town for anything but artisans and quests, people would hesitate going to town just to repec, as that will become less of a focus of the game.
If left unchanged, I can see this issue, some might not call it that, becoming the center point of the game, especially in Inferno and Hell.
The difference is that in the Town-only rule, you can respec while you are anywhere in Town, and don't have to pay gold for it.
Could it be that our votes count?
Which was basically you can't swap skills for 10 seconds after attacking, or having been attacked.
After that respec is not a decision to try somthing new but a tactic to achieve certain short term goals - if you need new skills for the next area a 20 second trip back to town is not reall a burden. Switching for every encounter is stupid and outside what Diablo was historically about.
A solution that wasn't on the polls "an unwary penalty": Character takes double (or triple) damage whenever their skill pane or inventory pane is open (maybe even extend the penalty to 5 seconds after pane closes).
Problem solved now characters don't have to go back to town to swap skills but they also won't want to swap skills during combat. All they have to do is move far away from any danger and swap.
As for boss fights, they may just want to lock the skill bar for that.
Everyone has different play styles, why do you have to force everyone to use your particular play style? Also, all beta footage we have seen about switching skills is on Act 1 Normal. Even on normal, the mobs are usually getting a few shots in while you change skills in combat. Do you seriously think you can switch out skills in combat and not get killed in Hell/Inferno? And if you play with friends, you can easily pop to town and teleport back using a friend's banner for Boss fights.
The current system works. We've all seen the beta footage. There is also no ranking in PvE so why do you care how others choose play the game? You hate the fact that their play style is to adapt to their environment? And in doing so breaks the age old mold of a true winning build?
The concept of builds that was created by Diablo 2 is being re-imagined. Diablo 2 is the game that originated 3 Skill Trees which most RPG's are now mimicking, they also originated the use of skill points as a progression method which we all seem addicted to. Are you so narrow minded that you cannot accept a new system that is really fun to play and that encourages experimentation?
Or just have it on a channel like they have for SoJ. 10 seconds to cast it uninterrupted and then you can swap skills.
Right now, you can switch skills mid-battle, but the process is entirely awkward. Either this should be supported, with skill-set swapping, or not allowed, with a cooldown.
It sounds like the reasons behind this are that the developers don't really want players to switch skills in battle, but don't want to put any limits at all on experimenting. Well, you can't have your wife drunk and your wine in the fridge.
[quote] On a slightly related (?) note we're playing around with having skill swapping locked to being in-town only. We're definitely not sold on it, but it could appear at some time in a beta patch, so FYI. Just be aware it's only something we're trying, and not a permanent solution.
[\quote]
uses the word 'solution', which to me says that Blizard recognizes a 'problem'.
The problem is that the current system eliminates the need to actually put thought into your build and come up with a cohesive set of 6 skills + runes + 3 passives that defines your play-style. Without a limitation on when and how you can swap skills, the designers' intent to limit you to 6 skills is effectively meaningless.
They way respecs were handled once added to D2 worked well. You got a couple of free ones as you leveled and then could get more via a cube recipe with items dropped from act bosses. Choosing a build was a meaningful decision that involved important trade-offs, but you still had the ability to switch to a different build if you wanted to try something out (just not so often that you could use a specialty build for every situation).
The main drawback with the D2 system is that it didn't handle the early leveling process well as you gained new skills. You basically had to either pick one or more level 1 skills to pump and use through normal difficulty and then respec to your "real" build at level 30, or run around through normal with one point into a level 1 skill killing slowly until you could unlock what you really wanted.
The current system in D3 is a great way to handle the early game and allow player experimentation as they level. I think the best solution would be a hybrid system where you can freely swap skills until level 30 (when you have access to everything) and then must pick a build with respec limitations that discourage swapping to tailor your build to specific encounters. Heck, I'd probably even be OK with allowing the current mechanics up through level 59 and only once you hit the level cap/Inferno do you need to put thought into your build and stick with what you choose.
Restrictions are what lead to interesting game-play choices. If skill selection doesn't have meaningful consequences at some point, then a lot of the experimentation that has kept people playing D2 to this day will be lost and D3 won't have the same longevity. (Maybe some people will say this is just Blizzard's plan to make sure people buy the expansions down the line, but I don't think engineered boredom is something they would or should design for.)