Well ok, if they never made Inferno then we got to do Diablo runs, and maybe the Unicorn ranch. Yeah for end game! Now we have 4 acts of stuff to get loot from. It is a start, it isn't new story lines or anything but its better than running Baal till you get grey hair, note need to dye my hair again. Plus Hell gear does drop, this is true but Inferno has its own tier of gear that can drop and is the best.
Really for the average player, the first play through will likely be enough. Now for me, I'm gearing my toons out. 5 at least will be made to look pretty and all awesome in good gear. Plus stuff will be patched in that will likely require you've grinded some god gear by the time it comes out.
I guess. I honestly don't know why people would bother throwing anything more than a couple of bucks at a game if they don't know what they're getting into or don't intend to really get into it. I prefer to be informed. That's why/how I found this website in the first place, because I was interested in the pods and information updates on Force's youtube channel.
I thought I was safe saying that anyone passionate about the previous titles, or from other blizzard titles that have been following every bit of information closely, would at least play to "end game". Maybe I'm just ignorant or something, because that was always my intention and my interpretation concerning the average poster here on a "diablofan" discussion forum.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but in my opinion Inferno shouldn't drop any gear. You should make do with the gear you got from Hell and there should be several achievements throughout Inferno so other people could see how far you've come with a certain character through Inferno so there's some prestige to it.
Maybe Inferno could drop gems and runes and all that, but no armor, weapons, etc.
I doubt Blizz will make it like this though.
Who gives a damn about achievements? The only reward Diablo has is loot, thats why people play the game, its not about the story(no, you didn't killed baal 1249189051252 times because the lore is so rich), its not about the shiny graphics, its not about the challenge, its loot.
Whats the point of playing a much harder version of the game if we are not being rewarded for it?
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
all this in the end is just to say that people have different definitions of what end game is. I see a lot of people say it cant be end game because its the same thing all over again, others say it *is* end game because you reached the last lvl and you are at the *end* of the game. But really, what is the real definition of "end game content". I think if we answer this it could end a lot of arguing.
To those who say it is the same thing again: In inferno it was mentioned there will be new and improved monster AI, new abilities and even new monster affixes (and maybe even more i think, not sure here tho).
To those who say it is end game content: If you *do* make the same quests, bosses and events, isn't it the same game over again, simply in a harder fashion ?
Even if i personally agree more with the "it is end game" side than the other, i think both have their right and wrong. But whatever the case may be, i think it will be a hell of a lot fun !
lol Xel I read this entire dang thread to see if anyone hit on the major point of conflict in this thread and you hit it with the very last post (before the one I'm writing now anyways)
You guys' aren't arguing if D3 has a real end game or not, you're arguing about the definition of end game. Define End game and you will all very easily come to a consensus if D3 has one or not.
The issue I'm seeing is that people have different views of End Game.
Some people consider Item finding end game. As long as it's long and drawn out that's a valid end game. This even Sixen wouldn't argue *if* he agrees on that definition of an end game (which he clearly doesn't).
I love what they've done with item finding and I don't think anyone will object to Blizzard designing an item finding end game that can be accomplished within all the content they've made (instead of a few select area's, pindle, meph, baal etc.).
What I want however for my ideal end game (not *the* end game, just a *different* end game), is some sort of content that forces me to go through the item finding end game first. I want to USE that MF end game found gear for something. D2 had it with the Ubers, WoW has it with raids (You farm heroics for gear for raids, you farm early bosses in raids to get gear to take down later bosses in raids). Raids was not about gear for everyone, a lot of people just wanted to see and experience the content and farming gear on the way was a means to and end.
I think the bottom line is D3 does have *some* sort of End game, but it's not everyone's end game. It's not Sixen's and it's not mine, but I'm sure we're both going to enjoy the crap of the end game that does exist
Well Dark I guess I'm never going to write post for you. =P
In all seriousness this was something I was trying to hit on, though the point may have been lost. End-game is just too varied to be defined by anyone one thing. Also Bashiok has stated that there is more down the tube for end-game so it will be practically like an MMO, patched in content and stuff like that.
Thanks to a little game called WoW the concept of end-game has gone from raiding the one big dragon on a server to so many different little groups it isn't really possible to define with an exact value. Still in Diablo 3 I see quite a few possible end-games out there right now.
There wouldn't be a problem if jay/otheres weren't shunning the pvp community blizzard has acquired over the past near decade. Games have evolved since diablo 2. It's true that it was a great game a decade ago and a lot of the concepts can still work today, but I think if they had ranked pvp on the *side* of the game (balanced separately from PvM), then they'd be making *nearly* everyone happy instead of just the casual player base who wants to infinitely farm items for the sake of having better items and that's it, or play through normal once and quit.
That said, that is the main reason it's so hard for us to accept inferno as "end game", because there really is no point to clear inferno more than once, unless you're a farmville style gamer who gets satisfaction from continually getting more shiny equipment. I understand an rpg involves finding new items, but only a few players can get a lot of replay value from just finding items without any other reason other than just having said items. Everyone else will just quit when the content is beaten and the game gets boring, unless there is a ever changing system like PvP or constant new pvm material being released.
It's only hard for those to accept item finding as an end game who don't consider item finding end game (which may very well be the majority of people).
There is PvP and they have at least given themselves the ability to balance it separately from the PvE game. I myself intend to try PvP a little bit at any rate.
I think the saving grace is that the end game content people like myself and Sixen want is something that can (and hopefully will) be added later while we're farming the gear in inferno we're going to need for those challenges in the future
That's my hope too. I haven't given up faith, maybe there will enough people who request things be added so that in a content patch down the line there are more reasons to have the best gear and add to replay value, ultimately giving blizzard a larger more active player base years into the game (which will benefit them and the game(us) through use of the RMAH.)
I'll probably get flamed for this, but in my opinion Inferno shouldn't drop any gear. You should make do with the gear you got from Hell and there should be several achievements throughout Inferno so other people could see how far you've come with a certain character through Inferno so there's some prestige to it.
Maybe Inferno could drop gems and runes and all that, but no armor, weapons, etc.
I doubt Blizz will make it like this though.
no i get what your saying completely, but how does making it drop those things and give achievements, but no gear make it so much different?
I think what they're trying to do with the Inferno level, is make the playthrough so long with a character, that once people beat Hell they can't resist to move on to Inferno and this level will be so long and difficult that it'll take many moons to complete. It's only grinding if people go through an area again and again. I'm sure you wouldn't go through Inferno areas twice since the risk of dying lies just around the next corner.
Or maybe we should just get used to the fact that grinding is part of the Diablo franchise. People can do what they want as far as I'm concerned. If they think going through the same area again and again is fun then so be it. But with Inferno, I think we'll see far less grinding in Hell.
true, why grind in hell when inferno has 10x better drops. and also i don't think it'll take "many moons" especially if its solo able, if you can go through hell act 1-act 4 in practically a day, i doubt inferno would take more then a few days or week max to beat it then you'll just do whatever parts you enjoyed the most (or just the whole thing again) to get the absolute best gear possible. so grinding is inevitable, in fact jay wilson said the point of inferno was for grinding, but making it hard throughout so theres just more stuff to grind so your not repeating the same boss 1000x times, your repeating the entire game.
For me, if Diablo 3 took only a day to go through hell difficulty from act 1 to 4... That my friend would absolutely suck hairy monkey balls!
I want this game on normal difficulty to last me, from act 1 - 4, at LEAST one week. I've been waiting sooooo long for this game, I want it to take me more than 4-6 hours to complete even normal difficulty before I do the whole thing again on Nightmare.
I don't know about anyone else, but 10+ years on making a game, only to have the story of the game last around 4 hours would be horrible!!!
Diablo 2 took me around a week and a half to get through normal difficulty alone. I hope Diablo 3 takes significantly longer than this. =)
For me, if Diablo 3 took only a day to go through hell difficulty from act 1 to 4... That my friend would absolutely suck hairy monkey balls!
I want this game on normal difficulty to last me, from act 1 - 4, at LEAST one week. I've been waiting sooooo long for this game, I want it to take me more than 4-6 hours to complete even normal difficulty before I do the whole thing again on Nightmare.
I don't know about anyone else, but 10+ years on making a game, only to have the story of the game last around 4 hours would be horrible!!!
Diablo 2 took me around a week and a half to get through normal difficulty alone. I hope Diablo 3 takes significantly longer than this. =)
I 100% agree with you, but you have to consider, however, that after you leveled up one or two, or maybe 3 characters the whole process is just going to be so incredibly tedious.
I picked up median XL, one of the best d2 mods and played it through. Despite having completely new skill trees, monster ai, monster count, type etc after playing through a couple times it just started being boring as hell.
Now that we will be playing through the game at least 3 times per character, and the end game will basically be a more difficult version of leveling content we'll be playing through the entire time we're not in "end game", don't you think that is just as *almost* as tedious as repeatedly farming bosses you've already killed 3 times over and over?
I ended up cutting every possible corner playing the game (and the original game) after a while because it got old and all I wanted to do was fool around with the new skills.
Once I had done that, and beaten all the content, there was nothing left to do on MXL and in the original game all I did was pvp, which ended up being trashy compared to the pvp Blizzard experimented with in wow.
That's my hope too. I haven't given up faith, maybe there will enough people who request things be added so that in a content patch down the line there are more reasons to have the best gear and add to replay value, ultimately giving blizzard a larger more active player base years into the game (which will benefit them and the game(us) through use of the RMAH.)
This is quoted from Bashiok here:
Quote from "Bashiok" »
I'll say we're definitely looking to implement new features and content with patch releases, and we have them planned out in advance, but as things can and do change we're not ready to announce what those could be.
If all is good this may give you that little ray of hope.
Who knows they may actually balanced the PvP separately later on as well.
imagine this:
if u need be lv 60 to enter inferno and play through it its exactly same as u starting of the game as lvl 1 and playing through. only way to beat it is with skill and gear cuz u wont lvl more than that.
For me, if Diablo 3 took only a day to go through hell difficulty from act 1 to 4... That my friend would absolutely suck hairy monkey balls!
I want this game on normal difficulty to last me, from act 1 - 4, at LEAST one week. I've been waiting sooooo long for this game, I want it to take me more than 4-6 hours to complete even normal difficulty before I do the whole thing again on Nightmare.
I don't know about anyone else, but 10+ years on making a game, only to have the story of the game last around 4 hours would be horrible!!!
Diablo 2 took me around a week and a half to get through normal difficulty alone. I hope Diablo 3 takes significantly longer than this. =)
I 100% agree with you, but you have to consider, however, that after you leveled up one or two, or maybe 3 characters the whole process is just going to be so incredibly tedious.
I picked up median XL, one of the best d2 mods and played it through. Despite having completely new skill trees, monster ai, monster count, type etc after playing through a couple times it just started being boring as hell.
Now that we will be playing through the game at least 3 times per character, and the end game will basically be a more difficult version of leveling content we'll be playing through the entire time we're not in "end game", don't you think that is just as *almost* as tedious as repeatedly farming bosses you've already killed 3 times over and over?
I ended up cutting every possible corner playing the game (and the original game) after a while because it got old and all I wanted to do was fool around with the new skills.
Once I had done that, and beaten all the content, there was nothing left to do on MXL and in the original game all I did was pvp, which ended up being trashy compared to the pvp Blizzard experimented with in wow.
True. However, you have mentioned the solution (kinda). We will be able to skip as much as possible when we eventually get bored of the content. =)
Also, they will be implemented new content. I also hope they improve the older content so it gives players incentive to run through Acts 1 - 4 even more times. =)
Unfortunately, this went from a planned mature debate to a chaotic, immature argument between three key players. End game is what you make it. If farming bosses for better gear keep you playing, great. If the prospect of having the best gear keeps you playing, that's great too. But what a lot of people keep forgetting is that the game isn't out yet. The only people who have played it work for Blizzard, and they wouldn't be allowed to post here anyway. We'll find out how Inferno plays... when we play it. That is, if we ever do.
Since people seem to only compare D3, the game that hasn't come out yet, to D2 and WoW, I'll use WoW as an example. The people who say Inferno isn't end-game say that because it's not new content, and repeating the same thing over and over isn't end-game content.
1) There's new AI, new affixes, and tons of things to change the gameplay from Hell.
2) With this logic, there can never be any end-game. Once you kill Baal, you're done, every subsequent kill is repeating old content. Now to compare this to WoW, after killing Yogg-Saron once you're just repeating old content. Yes, there are content updates, but in those content updates you're just repeatedly killing low tier raid bosses to get to high tier raid bosses, and the process continues. After Yogg-Saron it's Ragnaros. Then Illidan. Etc. It's only new content for a short amount of time until it becomes the grindfest people are complaining about.
I personally love the prospect of Inferno, and while I can understand the other side of the "debate," I think the pros outweigh the cons. Most people in this thread, and forum, and internet are speculating on features of the game, and then basing their opinions on aforementioned speculations. We all have to wait for the game to come out in order to see if Inferno really is a long-lasting form of end-game content.
TL;DR I think it's sufficient end-game content.
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When I grow up, I want to be a frill-necked lizard.
Unfortunately, this went from a planned mature debate to a chaotic, immature argument between three key players. End game is what you make it. If farming bosses for better gear keep you playing, great. If the prospect of having the best gear keeps you playing, that's great too. But what a lot of people keep forgetting is that the game isn't out yet. The only people who have played it work for Blizzard, and they wouldn't be allowed to post here anyway. We'll find out how Inferno plays... when we play it. That is, if we ever do.
Since people seem to only compare D3, the game that hasn't come out yet, to D2 and WoW, I'll use WoW as an example. The people who say Inferno isn't end-game say that because it's not new content, and repeating the same thing over and over isn't end-game content.
1) There's new AI, new affixes, and tons of things to change the gameplay from Hell.
2) With this logic, there can never be any end-game. Once you kill Baal, you're done, every subsequent kill is repeating old content. Now to compare this to WoW, after killing Yogg-Saron once you're just repeating old content. Yes, there are content updates, but in those content updates you're just repeatedly killing low tier raid bosses to get to high tier raid bosses, and the process continues. After Yogg-Saron it's Ragnaros. Then Illidan. Etc. It's only new content for a short amount of time until it becomes the grindfest people are complaining about.
I personally love the prospect of Inferno, and while I can understand the other side of the "debate," I think the pros outweigh the cons. Most people in this thread, and forum, and internet are speculating on features of the game, and then basing their opinions on aforementioned speculations. We all have to wait for the game to come out in order to see if Inferno really is a long-lasting form of end-game content.
TL;DR I think it's sufficient end-game content.
Putting your attempted flame aside...
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is a ton of information to be had, that combined with past experience in rpg's and blizzard titles alike gives rise to discussions, or else this topic wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be following podcasts/blue posts etc. If the everyone just sat around and accepted everything handed to them as it is there wouldn't be "business" and there wouldn't be "individuality" and opinions. I know that a good amount of people just cling to whatever they first hear/see like mindless sheep, but please allow people who are willing to express their opinions do so on equal ground. The game may not be out yet, but we've had a hit and miss stream of information over the past two or three years and we're most likely going to see a beta within a month, so just hold your horse and be patient.
"End game is what you make it. If farming bosses for better gear keep you playing, great. If the prospect of having the best gear keeps you playing, that's great too."
-Did anyone else read this and not understand the implication/meaning? What's the difference between farming bosses for better gear, and having the best gear in terms of "end game". I didn't find a difference between the two, or a point having been made.
"There's new AI, new affixes, and tons of things to change the gameplay from Hell."
-I've been speaking from the perspective of MXL, where creature behaviors, affixes, etc dramatically change per difficulty (and especially in the vast number of ubers) from the normal game. I have experience in this because brotherlaz made a kick ass mod for d2. But that doesn't keep you playing forever. While it is much better than the alternative(d2 original), it isn't really all that replay-able once you get enough gear to crush the rest of the ubers, and leaves the player feeling unfulfilled in terms of end game. There are so many areas of the game in which the player will just get one shot or die instantly, but once you learn the gimmick it's a joke and the content is made "useless". So when you come preaching about how the game could initially create a challenge in inferno, you could very well be right, but that's completely aside from the point. The point is that unless there's a >reason< to farm the best items in the game, a good number of players >will quit the game< after they've >cleared the content< because they feel there is nothing left to do.
"With this logic, there can never be any end-game. Once you kill Baal, you're done, every subsequent kill is repeating old content. Now to compare this to WoW, after killing Yogg-Saron once you're just repeating old content. Yes, there are content updates, but in those content updates you're just repeatedly killing low tier raid bosses to get to high tier raid bosses, and the process continues. After Yogg-Saron it's Ragnaros. Then Illidan. Etc. It's only new content for a short amount of time until it becomes the grindfest people are complaining about."
-What I think is bothering more people than that is the lack of a purpose for items. People didn't infinitely grind MC to have the best items so that they could have the best items.... That just wouldn't make sense. They grinded MC to hell and back because they wanted to have an advantage when blackwing lair came out, and moreover (and mostly) have an advantage in PvP. They cleared it initially, for the first time, because it was new and exciting. That is the overall truth.
Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the aspect of inferno compared to the aspect of boss farming, but in the end it's still not something I would call "end game" because end game to me has an entirely different definition than that of someone who plays and enjoys farmville.
TL;DR I think that Farmville =/= end game content concept for a large % of players, as much as it is the means to what should be an end
Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the aspect of inferno compared to the aspect of boss farming, but in the end it's still not something I would call "end game" because end game to me has an entirely different definition than that of someone who plays and enjoys farmville.
Some people seem to think that with "x gear" everything will be a breeze. In many games getting all the best gear tives you enough firepower to blow things faster and survive for a couple more seconds. If you're not carefully treading and hitting the right enemy at the right time, you will die even with the best upgrades/gear.
Sadly for this kind of player, the "action" part of Diablo 3 should make sure that even with the tiptop gear (which should be slightly better on Inferno not 10000% better), clearing Inferno and killing bosses should still require well placed spells and well executed tactics. If everything is done right, if you're not 110% focused on the game when you're playing you will still die a lot, much like in an action game like God of War and Devil May Cry 4.
I'm going to use Bastion once again (which I recently cleared twice with all Idols activated on NG+), even though I have all upgrades on that game, and tons of passives, it's still pretty difficult to keep track of all things on screen when swarming monsters are hitting you (and countering those Peckers to instakilk them is hard), one guy is slowing you from afar and creating "AoE denials" and the other guy is throwing a damaging 1-hit-halves-your-hp attack. It requires a lot of attention and focus to counter stuff, and it's also extremely satisfying when I finish an area and survive.
I personally believe that the Action part of D3 will make things way more interesting in Inferno than people are giving credit for. And I also can't wait to see these same people with crappy "execution skills" who usually bulldoze through harder content by over leveling and overfarming gear posting on the forums about how impossible it is to play through Inferno.
In case if you forgot - in D2 you can reach level 80+ in 5-7 hours with your friend on Baal runs
and then you farm-farm-farm-farm-farm... mephisto with sorc, pindel for oculus, countess/nihlatak for runes, andariel, duriel and co for keys and dust to respec. So D2 endgame was like 10 bosses farm (ubers + act boses + countess/nihlatak), and they are pretty much easywith tons of crappy mobs before them.
It was boring like 9 hells if you do it more then 4 years like me !!!
In D3 we got normal leveling up system without rushing (i hope at lest), EACH OF 4 difficulty brings NEW ABILITIES to old mobs (and hp/dmg boost), i hope Fallen (for example) wich hase 1 ability on normal will have 4 on Inferno (will shoot fireballs and happy rainbows, oneshotting with "unicorn charge")
i don't understand people who do not like way it is... i love it so much!
what i do not like is removal of customization like talisman and skillpoints (but talisman and skull gems will come back in expansion, i bet)
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And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell...
Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the aspect of inferno compared to the aspect of boss farming, but in the end it's still not something I would call "end game" because end game to me has an entirely different definition than that of someone who plays and enjoys farmville.TL;DR I think that Farmville =/= end game content concept for a large % of players, as much as it is the means to what should be an end
Well there's not much choice for end-game. While there are plenty of possible ways Blizzard could deal with end-game content, a flat difficulty allowing you to do whatever you want with in the game seems the most appealing to me. What would you prefer? Infinite dungeon? That actually sounds great to me. Better gear = further progress, so you keep striving to get the best floor, or time. But Uber bosses/dungeons/cow/unicorn level? After completing those there's nothing to do, just like how after beating Act IV on Inferno there's nothing to do. PvP? There's already PvP, just no ladder to make you the person with the biggest ego. There's personal challenge, but more people are in it for the glory. In the end, you're going to have to grind gear in order to be able to do whatever the end-game is. If the game progression was just: Normal>Nightmare>Hell, then end-game with guaranteed gearing/results, there'd be no point. Inferno allows the player to play the game and do whatever they want and have an equal opportunity for awesome rewards. It has already been stated that the best of the best items will be super rare, and no one's going to go from normal to nightmare to hell to inferno, and just have the best gear in 3 days.
TL;DR: While Inferno isn't perfect, every "end-game" ends up being repeated. Inferno makes this repeating less... repetitive. For new content to always be available when the player has finished everything is impossible. More content will be added. People will just have to suffer through Inferno until then.
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When I grow up, I want to be a frill-necked lizard.
Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the aspect of inferno compared to the aspect of boss farming, but in the end it's still not something I would call "end game" because end game to me has an entirely different definition than that of someone who plays and enjoys farmville.
Some people seem to think that with "x gear" everything will be a breeze. In many games getting all the best gear tives you enough firepower to blow things faster and survive for a couple more seconds. If you're not carefully treading and hitting the right enemy at the right time, you will die even with the best upgrades/gear.
Sadly for this kind of player, the "action" part of Diablo 3 should make sure that even with the tiptop gear (which should be slightly better on Inferno not 10000% better), clearing Inferno and killing bosses should still require well placed spells and well executed tactics. If everything is done right, if you're not 110% focused on the game when you're playing you will still die a lot, much like in an action game like God of War and Devil May Cry 4.
I'm going to use Bastion once again (which I recently cleared twice with all Idols activated on NG+), even though I have all upgrades on that game, and tons of passives, it's still pretty difficult to keep track of all things on screen when swarming monsters are hitting you (and countering those Peckers to instakilk them is hard), one guy is slowing you from afar and creating "AoE denials" and the other guy is throwing a damaging 1-hit-halves-your-hp attack. It requires a lot of attention and focus to counter stuff, and it's also extremely satisfying when I finish an area and survive.
I personally believe that the Action part of D3 will make things way more interesting in Inferno than people are giving credit for. And I also can't wait to see these same people with crappy "execution skills" who usually bulldoze through harder content by over leveling and overfarming gear posting on the forums about how impossible it is to play through Inferno.
That's great man, but I honestly don't expect this atmosphere for inferno. It's supposed to be soloable, it's supposed to be beaten and the mentality of the difficulty in d3 reminds me a lot of the mentality regarding the difficulty in diablo 2 and its mods. I'm just speculating on the issue of difficulty, so I'll really have to wait and see, bring it on D3, but the issue concerning difficulty was really twig on the branch of a tree in what I was trying to get across in my post.
My original point was:
-The items in inferno were probably items that would have been in hell. If inferno wasn't around, hell would have been the standing "end game" (in an item definition). And so expanding on this point, the differences between inferno and hell didn't appear to be all that different to begin with. Yeah the monsters are more aggressive and have higher stats, and may use new/old special abilities more frequently, but isn't that true for every other difficulty? My point here is that instead of playing the same content 3 times leveling into end game, all they apparently did was make the best of the best items drop after you're already level 60 in the same environment you've already been playing in the entire time while leveling up. It may very well be more difficult, it's supposed to be, but that's not my point. All I'm saying is while this beats farming specific bosses over and over, it's going to be extremely tedious all the same playing through the same zones from start to finish as well- period.
-And my overall point that "end game" means different things to different people, as people have been saying repeatedly in unison and I agree with. I personally am one of the many wishing there was a larger emphasis on pvp. They have said pvp skills and coefficients will be separate from pvm, I don't understand why they can't just add more pvp modes/ranking system(s) for the 25%+ of us who do want it, it would only result in more RMAH use resulting in more money for the game for everyone (including blizzard). I'm completely lost why they're going out of their way to shit on pvp, while teasing us with a pvp platform in arena.
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The strong must rule if we are to survive.
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I guess. I honestly don't know why people would bother throwing anything more than a couple of bucks at a game if they don't know what they're getting into or don't intend to really get into it. I prefer to be informed. That's why/how I found this website in the first place, because I was interested in the pods and information updates on Force's youtube channel.
I thought I was safe saying that anyone passionate about the previous titles, or from other blizzard titles that have been following every bit of information closely, would at least play to "end game". Maybe I'm just ignorant or something, because that was always my intention and my interpretation concerning the average poster here on a "diablofan" discussion forum.
Who gives a damn about achievements? The only reward Diablo has is loot, thats why people play the game, its not about the story(no, you didn't killed baal 1249189051252 times because the lore is so rich), its not about the shiny graphics, its not about the challenge, its loot.
Whats the point of playing a much harder version of the game if we are not being rewarded for it?
www.nerdyblog.com - Great website and great Diablo III streams and Skype chat!
To those who say it is the same thing again: In inferno it was mentioned there will be new and improved monster AI, new abilities and even new monster affixes (and maybe even more i think, not sure here tho).
To those who say it is end game content: If you *do* make the same quests, bosses and events, isn't it the same game over again, simply in a harder fashion ?
Even if i personally agree more with the "it is end game" side than the other, i think both have their right and wrong. But whatever the case may be, i think it will be a hell of a lot fun !
You guys' aren't arguing if D3 has a real end game or not, you're arguing about the definition of end game. Define End game and you will all very easily come to a consensus if D3 has one or not.
The issue I'm seeing is that people have different views of End Game.
Some people consider Item finding end game. As long as it's long and drawn out that's a valid end game. This even Sixen wouldn't argue *if* he agrees on that definition of an end game (which he clearly doesn't).
I love what they've done with item finding and I don't think anyone will object to Blizzard designing an item finding end game that can be accomplished within all the content they've made (instead of a few select area's, pindle, meph, baal etc.).
What I want however for my ideal end game (not *the* end game, just a *different* end game), is some sort of content that forces me to go through the item finding end game first. I want to USE that MF end game found gear for something. D2 had it with the Ubers, WoW has it with raids (You farm heroics for gear for raids, you farm early bosses in raids to get gear to take down later bosses in raids). Raids was not about gear for everyone, a lot of people just wanted to see and experience the content and farming gear on the way was a means to and end.
I think the bottom line is D3 does have *some* sort of End game, but it's not everyone's end game. It's not Sixen's and it's not mine, but I'm sure we're both going to enjoy the crap of the end game that does exist
In all seriousness this was something I was trying to hit on, though the point may have been lost. End-game is just too varied to be defined by anyone one thing. Also Bashiok has stated that there is more down the tube for end-game so it will be practically like an MMO, patched in content and stuff like that.
Thanks to a little game called WoW the concept of end-game has gone from raiding the one big dragon on a server to so many different little groups it isn't really possible to define with an exact value. Still in Diablo 3 I see quite a few possible end-games out there right now.
Hell I just want beta so I can just get into it.
That said, that is the main reason it's so hard for us to accept inferno as "end game", because there really is no point to clear inferno more than once, unless you're a farmville style gamer who gets satisfaction from continually getting more shiny equipment. I understand an rpg involves finding new items, but only a few players can get a lot of replay value from just finding items without any other reason other than just having said items. Everyone else will just quit when the content is beaten and the game gets boring, unless there is a ever changing system like PvP or constant new pvm material being released.
It's only hard for those to accept item finding as an end game who don't consider item finding end game (which may very well be the majority of people).
There is PvP and they have at least given themselves the ability to balance it separately from the PvE game. I myself intend to try PvP a little bit at any rate.
I think the saving grace is that the end game content people like myself and Sixen want is something that can (and hopefully will) be added later while we're farming the gear in inferno we're going to need for those challenges in the future
For me, if Diablo 3 took only a day to go through hell difficulty from act 1 to 4... That my friend would absolutely suck hairy monkey balls!
I want this game on normal difficulty to last me, from act 1 - 4, at LEAST one week. I've been waiting sooooo long for this game, I want it to take me more than 4-6 hours to complete even normal difficulty before I do the whole thing again on Nightmare.
I don't know about anyone else, but 10+ years on making a game, only to have the story of the game last around 4 hours would be horrible!!!
Diablo 2 took me around a week and a half to get through normal difficulty alone. I hope Diablo 3 takes significantly longer than this. =)
I 100% agree with you, but you have to consider, however, that after you leveled up one or two, or maybe 3 characters the whole process is just going to be so incredibly tedious.
I picked up median XL, one of the best d2 mods and played it through. Despite having completely new skill trees, monster ai, monster count, type etc after playing through a couple times it just started being boring as hell.
Now that we will be playing through the game at least 3 times per character, and the end game will basically be a more difficult version of leveling content we'll be playing through the entire time we're not in "end game", don't you think that is just as *almost* as tedious as repeatedly farming bosses you've already killed 3 times over and over?
I ended up cutting every possible corner playing the game (and the original game) after a while because it got old and all I wanted to do was fool around with the new skills.
Once I had done that, and beaten all the content, there was nothing left to do on MXL and in the original game all I did was pvp, which ended up being trashy compared to the pvp Blizzard experimented with in wow.
This is quoted from Bashiok here:
If all is good this may give you that little ray of hope.
Who knows they may actually balanced the PvP separately later on as well.
if u need be lv 60 to enter inferno and play through it its exactly same as u starting of the game as lvl 1 and playing through. only way to beat it is with skill and gear cuz u wont lvl more than that.
True. However, you have mentioned the solution (kinda). We will be able to skip as much as possible when we eventually get bored of the content. =)
Also, they will be implemented new content. I also hope they improve the older content so it gives players incentive to run through Acts 1 - 4 even more times. =)
Since people seem to only compare D3, the game that hasn't come out yet, to D2 and WoW, I'll use WoW as an example. The people who say Inferno isn't end-game say that because it's not new content, and repeating the same thing over and over isn't end-game content.
1) There's new AI, new affixes, and tons of things to change the gameplay from Hell.
2) With this logic, there can never be any end-game. Once you kill Baal, you're done, every subsequent kill is repeating old content. Now to compare this to WoW, after killing Yogg-Saron once you're just repeating old content. Yes, there are content updates, but in those content updates you're just repeatedly killing low tier raid bosses to get to high tier raid bosses, and the process continues. After Yogg-Saron it's Ragnaros. Then Illidan. Etc. It's only new content for a short amount of time until it becomes the grindfest people are complaining about.
I personally love the prospect of Inferno, and while I can understand the other side of the "debate," I think the pros outweigh the cons. Most people in this thread, and forum, and internet are speculating on features of the game, and then basing their opinions on aforementioned speculations. We all have to wait for the game to come out in order to see if Inferno really is a long-lasting form of end-game content.
TL;DR I think it's sufficient end-game content.
Putting your attempted flame aside...
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is a ton of information to be had, that combined with past experience in rpg's and blizzard titles alike gives rise to discussions, or else this topic wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be following podcasts/blue posts etc. If the everyone just sat around and accepted everything handed to them as it is there wouldn't be "business" and there wouldn't be "individuality" and opinions. I know that a good amount of people just cling to whatever they first hear/see like mindless sheep, but please allow people who are willing to express their opinions do so on equal ground. The game may not be out yet, but we've had a hit and miss stream of information over the past two or three years and we're most likely going to see a beta within a month, so just hold your horse and be patient.
"End game is what you make it. If farming bosses for better gear keep you playing, great. If the prospect of having the best gear keeps you playing, that's great too."
-Did anyone else read this and not understand the implication/meaning? What's the difference between farming bosses for better gear, and having the best gear in terms of "end game". I didn't find a difference between the two, or a point having been made.
"There's new AI, new affixes, and tons of things to change the gameplay from Hell."
-I've been speaking from the perspective of MXL, where creature behaviors, affixes, etc dramatically change per difficulty (and especially in the vast number of ubers) from the normal game. I have experience in this because brotherlaz made a kick ass mod for d2. But that doesn't keep you playing forever. While it is much better than the alternative(d2 original), it isn't really all that replay-able once you get enough gear to crush the rest of the ubers, and leaves the player feeling unfulfilled in terms of end game. There are so many areas of the game in which the player will just get one shot or die instantly, but once you learn the gimmick it's a joke and the content is made "useless". So when you come preaching about how the game could initially create a challenge in inferno, you could very well be right, but that's completely aside from the point. The point is that unless there's a >reason< to farm the best items in the game, a good number of players >will quit the game< after they've >cleared the content< because they feel there is nothing left to do.
"With this logic, there can never be any end-game. Once you kill Baal, you're done, every subsequent kill is repeating old content. Now to compare this to WoW, after killing Yogg-Saron once you're just repeating old content. Yes, there are content updates, but in those content updates you're just repeatedly killing low tier raid bosses to get to high tier raid bosses, and the process continues. After Yogg-Saron it's Ragnaros. Then Illidan. Etc. It's only new content for a short amount of time until it becomes the grindfest people are complaining about."
-What I think is bothering more people than that is the lack of a purpose for items. People didn't infinitely grind MC to have the best items so that they could have the best items.... That just wouldn't make sense. They grinded MC to hell and back because they wanted to have an advantage when blackwing lair came out, and moreover (and mostly) have an advantage in PvP. They cleared it initially, for the first time, because it was new and exciting. That is the overall truth.
Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the aspect of inferno compared to the aspect of boss farming, but in the end it's still not something I would call "end game" because end game to me has an entirely different definition than that of someone who plays and enjoys farmville.
TL;DR I think that Farmville =/= end game content concept for a large % of players, as much as it is the means to what should be an end
Sadly for this kind of player, the "action" part of Diablo 3 should make sure that even with the tiptop gear (which should be slightly better on Inferno not 10000% better), clearing Inferno and killing bosses should still require well placed spells and well executed tactics. If everything is done right, if you're not 110% focused on the game when you're playing you will still die a lot, much like in an action game like God of War and Devil May Cry 4.
I'm going to use Bastion once again (which I recently cleared twice with all Idols activated on NG+), even though I have all upgrades on that game, and tons of passives, it's still pretty difficult to keep track of all things on screen when swarming monsters are hitting you (and countering those Peckers to instakilk them is hard), one guy is slowing you from afar and creating "AoE denials" and the other guy is throwing a damaging 1-hit-halves-your-hp attack. It requires a lot of attention and focus to counter stuff, and it's also extremely satisfying when I finish an area and survive.
I personally believe that the Action part of D3 will make things way more interesting in Inferno than people are giving credit for. And I also can't wait to see these same people with crappy "execution skills" who usually bulldoze through harder content by over leveling and overfarming gear posting on the forums about how impossible it is to play through Inferno.
and then you farm-farm-farm-farm-farm... mephisto with sorc, pindel for oculus, countess/nihlatak for runes, andariel, duriel and co for keys and dust to respec. So D2 endgame was like 10 bosses farm (ubers + act boses + countess/nihlatak), and they are pretty much easywith tons of crappy mobs before them.
It was boring like 9 hells if you do it more then 4 years like me !!!
In D3 we got normal leveling up system without rushing (i hope at lest), EACH OF 4 difficulty brings NEW ABILITIES to old mobs (and hp/dmg boost), i hope Fallen (for example) wich hase 1 ability on normal will have 4 on Inferno (will shoot fireballs and happy rainbows, oneshotting with "unicorn charge")
i don't understand people who do not like way it is... i love it so much!
what i do not like is removal of customization like talisman and skillpoints (but talisman and skull gems will come back in expansion, i bet)
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell...
Well there's not much choice for end-game. While there are plenty of possible ways Blizzard could deal with end-game content, a flat difficulty allowing you to do whatever you want with in the game seems the most appealing to me. What would you prefer? Infinite dungeon? That actually sounds great to me. Better gear = further progress, so you keep striving to get the best floor, or time. But Uber bosses/dungeons/cow/unicorn level? After completing those there's nothing to do, just like how after beating Act IV on Inferno there's nothing to do. PvP? There's already PvP, just no ladder to make you the person with the biggest ego. There's personal challenge, but more people are in it for the glory. In the end, you're going to have to grind gear in order to be able to do whatever the end-game is. If the game progression was just: Normal>Nightmare>Hell, then end-game with guaranteed gearing/results, there'd be no point. Inferno allows the player to play the game and do whatever they want and have an equal opportunity for awesome rewards. It has already been stated that the best of the best items will be super rare, and no one's going to go from normal to nightmare to hell to inferno, and just have the best gear in 3 days.
TL;DR: While Inferno isn't perfect, every "end-game" ends up being repeated. Inferno makes this repeating less... repetitive. For new content to always be available when the player has finished everything is impossible. More content will be added. People will just have to suffer through Inferno until then.
That's great man, but I honestly don't expect this atmosphere for inferno. It's supposed to be soloable, it's supposed to be beaten and the mentality of the difficulty in d3 reminds me a lot of the mentality regarding the difficulty in diablo 2 and its mods. I'm just speculating on the issue of difficulty, so I'll really have to wait and see, bring it on D3, but the issue concerning difficulty was really twig on the branch of a tree in what I was trying to get across in my post.
My original point was:
-The items in inferno were probably items that would have been in hell. If inferno wasn't around, hell would have been the standing "end game" (in an item definition). And so expanding on this point, the differences between inferno and hell didn't appear to be all that different to begin with. Yeah the monsters are more aggressive and have higher stats, and may use new/old special abilities more frequently, but isn't that true for every other difficulty? My point here is that instead of playing the same content 3 times leveling into end game, all they apparently did was make the best of the best items drop after you're already level 60 in the same environment you've already been playing in the entire time while leveling up. It may very well be more difficult, it's supposed to be, but that's not my point. All I'm saying is while this beats farming specific bosses over and over, it's going to be extremely tedious all the same playing through the same zones from start to finish as well- period.
-And my overall point that "end game" means different things to different people, as people have been saying repeatedly in unison and I agree with. I personally am one of the many wishing there was a larger emphasis on pvp. They have said pvp skills and coefficients will be separate from pvm, I don't understand why they can't just add more pvp modes/ranking system(s) for the 25%+ of us who do want it, it would only result in more RMAH use resulting in more money for the game for everyone (including blizzard). I'm completely lost why they're going out of their way to shit on pvp, while teasing us with a pvp platform in arena.