Ska, that's what low level runes are for. Experimenting. If you're saying that being forced to experiment just because of failing at a guessing game is good design, I don't think we can really find any common ground here. Because that just seems like a bad idea to increase player frustration in the end.
Ska, that's what low level runes are for. Experimenting. If you're saying that being forced to experiment just because of failing at a guessing game is good design, I don't think we can really find any common ground here. Because that just seems like a bad idea to increase player frustration in the end.
Simply trade for the type of rune + affixes you are looking for. The point is if it's no good for you, someone else will want it and you'll eventually find someone who has what you want and you have what they want. Thats the whole point, trading items.
Don't go into it expecting to find everything yourself. You will get frustrated fast. Go into it expecting to find things you can use to barter for what you want.
Ska, that's what low level runes are for. Experimenting. If you're saying that being forced to experiment just because of failing at a guessing game is good design, I don't think we can really find any common ground here. Because that just seems like a bad idea to increase player frustration in the end.
If you're saying that in a system as unpunishing and liquid in its skill system as this one, you will honestly throw away a level 7 rune without even considering working your build slightly to accommodate it just because it isn't the right color, then you're setting yourself up for frustration, and no change in game design will save you.
you assume more than 1 or two runes will be GOOD for each skill - which is more than I expect.
And you have no way to know that, though I imagine it would be much more true if you were to append your statement like so: "You assume more than 1 or 2 runes will be GOOD for each skill in any given build." Sure, when you're a glass cannon Wizard, it's a bad choice to use a rune in a ranged move that will turn it into a weaker melee version of the move, but that weaker melee version would work in a melee Wizard build. When we've seen so very little of the rune system, we have only room to speak of its potential; not of pitfalls we have no reason to believe exist.
Personally I don't like this system they are planning on testing. I am ok with random attributes, and locking onto a skills is fine with me. I would have been ok with blank runes, but not with it combine with the other two, even if you were allowed to make the rune blank again. Take that part out and I would be fine with it.
I also don't get why some people is saying that the blank rune idea is like gear drops. It isn't, only way to make it like gear drops was if gear also dropped blank and was able to randomly become any set of gear.
To put it into a D2 point of view, it would be like finding some gloves and when it gets equipped it randomly becomes anything from "Crude Gloves" to "Frostburn" or "Magefist"(of course if this system was implemented for gear the gear would probably have a level, say 87, and it would gain whatever to make it suitable to be a level 87 gear, but you should still get what I mean.).
Now random attributes on runes would be like gear drops(or closer to it as gear gets all its affixes when it drops and not when you identify it or equip it, of course as far as I know you don't need to identify gear anymore, but that is besides the point. Unless they changed when gear gets it affixes.).
Hey guys, i was wondering if there was any new info on the rune effect system, that is if its staying how it is right now or are they still testing it out as "random" runes.
also id like your opinions on which system would be better, i think the system now is perfect. but they want more "diversity" between player builds so there trying to make it SUPER random, and to where you might take weeks just to find the specific rune you want for a specific skill... i think that would be SO frustrating and annoying, yes it would add more customization but thats like in d2 trying to figure out the rune words without any idea what combo's there are. and wasting super high runes to make a worthless item... so i really hope they keep it how it is now on their site. those are just my thoughts, if there is another way of looking at it please let me know
I agree with you, the system is fine. I have no idea why they'd change something that everybody liked. Maybe add affixes to them but don't make them random and only useable with 1 skill, that's definitely a bad idea.
Until I don't see the rune system, I will not decide whether the full random is good or not, though I prefer the colored drop +random affix + attune to skill. My problem with the full random system is (above frustration), that I'll surely go to the internet, look for a good rune for every skill I'm interested in, because I dont want to waste them. While with the freely switchable system I just experiment on the early levels, putting every rune into every skill (probably even to those I'm not that interested in), since who knows, with runes it might be more my style.
Another point: I try to experiment with xy skill. I put colorless runes into it like 8-10 times, but I dont get crimson. Then I reach the point: f*ck it, I have like 20+ other skill, I'll not waste more runes on this one --> I1ll never try that version, while it may be the best for me, and maybe not even use the skill, because of that.
In conclusion, I'm sure there are pros and cons for every rune system, but I still think that the tottally random system is too frustrating.
IMO, as of I know from the system right now, it shouldn't be random-colored AND skill-attuned, it should be one of them.
You should be using 6 skills at the time, each of the skills you want a different color. Imagine how frustrating it would be to get several lvl 7 runes (which are told to be VERY RARE, imagine they would be like one of the 5 top HR's) and you just got ALL colors different from the skill you wanted. Worse than that, imagine that you roll a PERFECT rune for one of the skills, but attuned to the other.
If it wasn't random-colored you could still get a nice rune with the color you wanted in the skill you wanted, and if it wasn't skill-attuned you could still use nice runes in other skills. But the randomness of color AND stats just make it more punishing than anything else. I played D2 enough to get EVERY known build to level 70 at least, and have ONLY got like 2 HRs in my whole life (never got a SOJ). Just imagine how difficult it would be to get a fairly good (not even close to perfection) rune in the skill you want? Something like 95% of the players will never get one.
But I know that if the games comes out that way, it would be corrected early, that is just too punishing to last long.
Well last I heard, Jay's argument for the random rune system was that it was more of a specialization system for skills while leveling. IE -You find runes and invest them into skills you like. However this will, as much or more than the old skillpoint system, force/trick players into using the skills they randomly got "likeable" or "good" rune types for, and they will be spamming a smaller set of abilities.
Also players will spend even more time on webpages looking up "good", "best" rune types for skills, or just trying to learn the runes even do because they would otherwise learn at complete random.
I think the whole rune system suggestion brought forward was a weak argument for basically was was "nightmarish point of comparison (tooltips)". Instead of changing the system and making the game even more tedious and more random than it has to be, why not just keep the old system and revamp the tooltip system- IE, either:
-1) Force's suggestion (I think) in their podcast, add a "rune Diary/journal" or something of the type in the ui/help so that players can look up for information on runes if they want to, and/or
-2) Sixen's suggestion (I think) in the same podcast where you drag the rune over an active ability and it shows the tooltip for that one ability
I can completely understand the devs not wanting a huge wall of text on the players screen, but I feel they're making this harder than it has to be and completely missed on the issue, last reported. 100% behind force and sixen in most things, though I feel they really hit the nail on the head here. And yeah wiping runes is better than not being able to wipe runes (if they are indeed made random), but I thought D3 was supposed to be an >Action<RPG, not sitting around town trying to get the right rune from a random rune.
I was extremely excited at the original concept of runes. Affixes are fine, whatever, but random runes not so much. There's already a completely random item drop bias. We don't need to "randomly" specialize our characters. That doesn't make sense to me. I want to "build" my character much like how I'd rather eat with my eyes open as opposed to eating blindfolded.
It could work if the runes were not so rare, but I think I saw somewhere that they said that a lvl-7 rune will be VERY RARE.
I think that randomness is nice and all, but that's too much randomness for an item that you should see once or twice in a very large amount of time. I didn't like how the top items in D2 were so hard to drop, it's easier to win in the lottery than get some of the items in a single run, it just gets too frustrating when you farm, farm, farm around for more than a year and still don't get the desired item.
But that's the thing. I don't see why it's such a problem that the runes are part of the epic treasure hunting game that Diablo is. That's all Diablo is and ever has been. Kill monsters, get loot, hope it's good. If it's not, bummer, time to go wash, rinse and repeat. That's how gear has always been, and runes are nothing more than gear.
Seriously, you're going to have a harder time finding the specific helmet you're looking for than a specific rune. Because every unidentified "Iron Helm" is an almost infinite sea of possible Iron Helms. When you get into the legendaries... there's tons of those in this game, and you still have to hope against hope that you got a legendary instead of just a magic at all. And then there's rares in this game which are even HARDER to find. At least you know when you pick up a level 7 rune that there's an exactly 1 in 5 chance that it's the type you want.
Assume that when you get a Zod, you have to identify it to know if you can use it in an armor, helm, sword, axe or maul. And if you were trying to make a runeword, you had about 1/50 chance that it would form the runeword you were trying to do.
Really doesn't feel so nice to get a Zod rune (one rune that probably 95% of D2 players have never found).
Diablo is about grinding and farming loot, but making them incredibly insanely difficult to get loot only makes people give up on it.
Assume that when you get a Zod, you have to identify it to know if you can use it in an armor, helm, sword, axe or maul. And if you were trying to make a runeword, you had about 1/50 chance that it would form the runeword you were trying to do.
Really doesn't feel so nice to get a Zod rune (one rune that probably 95% of D2 players have never found).
Diablo is about grinding and farming loot, but making them incredibly insanely difficult to get loot only makes people give up on it.
Well there are no rune words in D3 so comparing apples to oranges. When its easy to find and farm gear I get bored with a game quicker than the being difficult. When your rune is "identified" and you don't like it, remove it and sell/salvage/AH the rune then buy your rune you were looking for.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Assume that when you get a Zod, you have to identify it to know if you can use it in an armor, helm, sword, axe or maul. And if you were trying to make a runeword, you had about 1/50 chance that it would form the runeword you were trying to do.
Really doesn't feel so nice to get a Zod rune (one rune that probably 95% of D2 players have never found).
Diablo is about grinding and farming loot, but making them incredibly insanely difficult to get loot only makes people give up on it.
Good thing that we're not trying to build a runeword.
Good thing that it will (likely) be easier to find a level 7 rune than a Zod rune (assuming you have half a chance to find one in a complete playthrough of Inferno.)
Good thing we already know that the runes will fit into whatever skill we put them into.
It's not that I missed your point, it's just that it seems to not really even be there.
My point is not about runewords on D3 guys, it just to see how fun would it be to have a super-uber-duper randomization on hyper-ultra difficult items.
Is that chance of getting half a rune in a Inferno Playthrough official? Because I remember pepople saying a Lvl-7 rune would be VERY RARE.
I don't want easy farming items, only items that I have a chance to get if I play the game for about 8 years, because that's what I played D2 (not without sopping from time to time) and there are A LOT of items I did farm for and never got them.
My point is not about runewords on D3 guys, it just to see how fun would it be to have a super-uber-duper randomization on hyper-ultra difficult items.
Is that chance of getting half a rune in a Inferno Playthrough official? Because I remember pepople saying a Lvl-7 rune would be VERY RARE.
I don't want easy farming items, only items that I have a chance to get if I play the game for about 8 years, because that's what I played D2 (not without sopping from time to time) and there are A LOT of items I did farm for and never got them.
A level 7 rune will likely be rare but no-one can determine drop rates at this time.
As for the farming for items in D2, I've ran into the same issues I've found maybe 95% of the items over the many years, I barely found any high end runes but I understand where your coming from. To compensate for this I'm excited about the AH because if I can't find something and I'm sick of farming for one, I can buy it at some point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
"Half a chance" was a figure of speech rather than a figure. Sorry.
I get that super randomization can seem bad, but given how important runes are, they SHOULD be hard to farm. But at least, as I said, we know we have 1 in 5 chance that it's the kind we want. I think it makes perfect sense for most people to be dancing around 5 and 6 for most of their runes and have to claw their way to that perfect 7.
I'm at a misunderstanding. Do you want to be able to play this game and have a shot at the best items WHILE having a life, or not?
What you're saying sounds INCREDIBLY tedious to me. Considering runes are how people specialize their characters' skills, considering diablo 3 is supposedly an Arpg, and considering how good the alternatives are, a random, permanently binding rune system is garbage. It's already been revealed that the best items will be extremely rare. How in the world is this not enough for you? Why do you have to make everything random, including character specialization... I mean runes will already drop randomly as it is. The other side on the debate is willing to deal with affixes so that the hardcore grinders can still get "perfect" affix runes and have a lot of value, why make something more annoying/tedious than it has to be.
Until I don't see the rune system, I will not decide whether the full random is good or not, though I prefer the colored drop +random affix + attune to skill. My problem with the full random system is (above frustration), that I'll surely go to the internet, look for a good rune for every skill I'm interested in, because I dont want to waste them. While with the freely switchable system I just experiment on the early levels, putting every rune into every skill (probably even to those I'm not that interested in), since who knows, with runes it might be more my style.
Another point: I try to experiment with xy skill. I put colorless runes into it like 8-10 times, but I dont get crimson. Then I reach the point: f*ck it, I have like 20+ other skill, I'll not waste more runes on this one --> I1ll never try that version, while it may be the best for me, and maybe not even use the skill, because of that.
In conclusion, I'm sure there are pros and cons for every rune system, but I still think that the tottally random system is too frustrating.
I disagree. With or without randomness, people will go to the internet anyway to look for which rune they want and aim for it anyway. The full random system is nothing but an bandage to what Blizzard is trying to fix, but the reality is that it won't. The best solution is to find another solution or just leave it as is.
Assume that when you get a Zod, you have to identify it to know if you can use it in an armor, helm, sword, axe or maul. And if you were trying to make a runeword, you had about 1/50 chance that it would form the runeword you were trying to do.
Really doesn't feel so nice to get a Zod rune (one rune that probably 95% of D2 players have never found).
Diablo is about grinding and farming loot, but making them incredibly insanely difficult to get loot only makes people give up on it.
Good thing that we're not trying to build a runeword.
Good thing that it will (likely) be easier to find a level 7 rune than a Zod rune (assuming you have half a chance to find one in a complete playthrough of Inferno.)
Good thing we already know that the runes will fit into whatever skill we put them into.
It's not that I missed your point, it's just that it seems to not really even be there.
Ska... nobody is trying to remove randomness from it. It is LITERALLY no more random if you have the rune drop as coloured or colourless. The randomness is 100% identical. The only thing that changes is you remove the most likely excessively frustrating guessing game aspect of it. You still have a 1 in 5 chance of getting the rune you want, you still have the exact same chance of getting the affixes you want. You just don't have to GUESS where you want to put it. You can know.
Also, I personally feel that having the runes drop unattuned will DISCOURAGE people from trying out new builds. Why? Because you are FORCED into a certain rune choice. You can't get a low level crimson rune and go 'hmm... I wonder what that does in my arcane orb' and put it in. You get a blank rune, put it whereever you guess it will be useful, and get something. It might be the same as what you were trying to replace. And if that's the case, then there's no experimenting because you just got the exact same item you wanted to replace with something new to try something fun. If you had runes dropping with their colour known you could PUT a different rune in there and know for sure, but as is you just can't do that. So you might not waste the blanks because you may still have abilities that need the rune you really want.
Simply trade for the type of rune + affixes you are looking for. The point is if it's no good for you, someone else will want it and you'll eventually find someone who has what you want and you have what they want. Thats the whole point, trading items.
Don't go into it expecting to find everything yourself. You will get frustrated fast. Go into it expecting to find things you can use to barter for what you want.
Random = good.
Edit: Yes, random = good. Guessing game = bad.
If you're saying that in a system as unpunishing and liquid in its skill system as this one, you will honestly throw away a level 7 rune without even considering working your build slightly to accommodate it just because it isn't the right color, then you're setting yourself up for frustration, and no change in game design will save you.
And you have no way to know that, though I imagine it would be much more true if you were to append your statement like so: "You assume more than 1 or 2 runes will be GOOD for each skill in any given build." Sure, when you're a glass cannon Wizard, it's a bad choice to use a rune in a ranged move that will turn it into a weaker melee version of the move, but that weaker melee version would work in a melee Wizard build. When we've seen so very little of the rune system, we have only room to speak of its potential; not of pitfalls we have no reason to believe exist.
I also don't get why some people is saying that the blank rune idea is like gear drops. It isn't, only way to make it like gear drops was if gear also dropped blank and was able to randomly become any set of gear.
To put it into a D2 point of view, it would be like finding some gloves and when it gets equipped it randomly becomes anything from "Crude Gloves" to "Frostburn" or "Magefist"(of course if this system was implemented for gear the gear would probably have a level, say 87, and it would gain whatever to make it suitable to be a level 87 gear, but you should still get what I mean.).
Now random attributes on runes would be like gear drops(or closer to it as gear gets all its affixes when it drops and not when you identify it or equip it, of course as far as I know you don't need to identify gear anymore, but that is besides the point. Unless they changed when gear gets it affixes.).
Agreed.
Another point: I try to experiment with xy skill. I put colorless runes into it like 8-10 times, but I dont get crimson. Then I reach the point: f*ck it, I have like 20+ other skill, I'll not waste more runes on this one --> I1ll never try that version, while it may be the best for me, and maybe not even use the skill, because of that.
In conclusion, I'm sure there are pros and cons for every rune system, but I still think that the tottally random system is too frustrating.
You should be using 6 skills at the time, each of the skills you want a different color. Imagine how frustrating it would be to get several lvl 7 runes (which are told to be VERY RARE, imagine they would be like one of the 5 top HR's) and you just got ALL colors different from the skill you wanted. Worse than that, imagine that you roll a PERFECT rune for one of the skills, but attuned to the other.
If it wasn't random-colored you could still get a nice rune with the color you wanted in the skill you wanted, and if it wasn't skill-attuned you could still use nice runes in other skills. But the randomness of color AND stats just make it more punishing than anything else. I played D2 enough to get EVERY known build to level 70 at least, and have ONLY got like 2 HRs in my whole life (never got a SOJ). Just imagine how difficult it would be to get a fairly good (not even close to perfection) rune in the skill you want? Something like 95% of the players will never get one.
But I know that if the games comes out that way, it would be corrected early, that is just too punishing to last long.
Also players will spend even more time on webpages looking up "good", "best" rune types for skills, or just trying to learn the runes even do because they would otherwise learn at complete random.
I think the whole rune system suggestion brought forward was a weak argument for basically was was "nightmarish point of comparison (tooltips)". Instead of changing the system and making the game even more tedious and more random than it has to be, why not just keep the old system and revamp the tooltip system- IE, either:
-1) Force's suggestion (I think) in their podcast, add a "rune Diary/journal" or something of the type in the ui/help so that players can look up for information on runes if they want to, and/or
-2) Sixen's suggestion (I think) in the same podcast where you drag the rune over an active ability and it shows the tooltip for that one ability
Sources:
Podcast
Jay Wilson Runestone "interview" INTERROGATION!!
I can completely understand the devs not wanting a huge wall of text on the players screen, but I feel they're making this harder than it has to be and completely missed on the issue, last reported. 100% behind force and sixen in most things, though I feel they really hit the nail on the head here. And yeah wiping runes is better than not being able to wipe runes (if they are indeed made random), but I thought D3 was supposed to be an >Action<RPG, not sitting around town trying to get the right rune from a random rune.
I was extremely excited at the original concept of runes. Affixes are fine, whatever, but random runes not so much. There's already a completely random item drop bias. We don't need to "randomly" specialize our characters. That doesn't make sense to me. I want to "build" my character much like how I'd rather eat with my eyes open as opposed to eating blindfolded.
I think that randomness is nice and all, but that's too much randomness for an item that you should see once or twice in a very large amount of time. I didn't like how the top items in D2 were so hard to drop, it's easier to win in the lottery than get some of the items in a single run, it just gets too frustrating when you farm, farm, farm around for more than a year and still don't get the desired item.
Seriously, you're going to have a harder time finding the specific helmet you're looking for than a specific rune. Because every unidentified "Iron Helm" is an almost infinite sea of possible Iron Helms. When you get into the legendaries... there's tons of those in this game, and you still have to hope against hope that you got a legendary instead of just a magic at all. And then there's rares in this game which are even HARDER to find. At least you know when you pick up a level 7 rune that there's an exactly 1 in 5 chance that it's the type you want.
Assume that when you get a Zod, you have to identify it to know if you can use it in an armor, helm, sword, axe or maul. And if you were trying to make a runeword, you had about 1/50 chance that it would form the runeword you were trying to do.
Really doesn't feel so nice to get a Zod rune (one rune that probably 95% of D2 players have never found).
Diablo is about grinding and farming loot, but making them incredibly insanely difficult to get loot only makes people give up on it.
Well there are no rune words in D3 so comparing apples to oranges. When its easy to find and farm gear I get bored with a game quicker than the being difficult. When your rune is "identified" and you don't like it, remove it and sell/salvage/AH the rune then buy your rune you were looking for.
Good thing that we're not trying to build a runeword.
Good thing that it will (likely) be easier to find a level 7 rune than a Zod rune (assuming you have half a chance to find one in a complete playthrough of Inferno.)
Good thing we already know that the runes will fit into whatever skill we put them into.
It's not that I missed your point, it's just that it seems to not really even be there.
Is that chance of getting half a rune in a Inferno Playthrough official? Because I remember pepople saying a Lvl-7 rune would be VERY RARE.
I don't want easy farming items, only items that I have a chance to get if I play the game for about 8 years, because that's what I played D2 (not without sopping from time to time) and there are A LOT of items I did farm for and never got them.
A level 7 rune will likely be rare but no-one can determine drop rates at this time.
As for the farming for items in D2, I've ran into the same issues I've found maybe 95% of the items over the many years, I barely found any high end runes but I understand where your coming from. To compensate for this I'm excited about the AH because if I can't find something and I'm sick of farming for one, I can buy it at some point.
I get that super randomization can seem bad, but given how important runes are, they SHOULD be hard to farm. But at least, as I said, we know we have 1 in 5 chance that it's the kind we want. I think it makes perfect sense for most people to be dancing around 5 and 6 for most of their runes and have to claw their way to that perfect 7.
What you're saying sounds INCREDIBLY tedious to me. Considering runes are how people specialize their characters' skills, considering diablo 3 is supposedly an Arpg, and considering how good the alternatives are, a random, permanently binding rune system is garbage. It's already been revealed that the best items will be extremely rare. How in the world is this not enough for you? Why do you have to make everything random, including character specialization... I mean runes will already drop randomly as it is. The other side on the debate is willing to deal with affixes so that the hardcore grinders can still get "perfect" affix runes and have a lot of value, why make something more annoying/tedious than it has to be.
I disagree. With or without randomness, people will go to the internet anyway to look for which rune they want and aim for it anyway. The full random system is nothing but an bandage to what Blizzard is trying to fix, but the reality is that it won't. The best solution is to find another solution or just leave it as is.
Ska... nobody is trying to remove randomness from it. It is LITERALLY no more random if you have the rune drop as coloured or colourless. The randomness is 100% identical. The only thing that changes is you remove the most likely excessively frustrating guessing game aspect of it. You still have a 1 in 5 chance of getting the rune you want, you still have the exact same chance of getting the affixes you want. You just don't have to GUESS where you want to put it. You can know.
Also, I personally feel that having the runes drop unattuned will DISCOURAGE people from trying out new builds. Why? Because you are FORCED into a certain rune choice. You can't get a low level crimson rune and go 'hmm... I wonder what that does in my arcane orb' and put it in. You get a blank rune, put it whereever you guess it will be useful, and get something. It might be the same as what you were trying to replace. And if that's the case, then there's no experimenting because you just got the exact same item you wanted to replace with something new to try something fun. If you had runes dropping with their colour known you could PUT a different rune in there and know for sure, but as is you just can't do that. So you might not waste the blanks because you may still have abilities that need the rune you really want.