You all seem very worried about RMAH, but you forget to adress a very important issue. How things are being developed in regards to PvP. After reading http://www.diablofans.com/topic/26249-diablo-3-press-event-visit/ and reading Sixen's interview with Jay Wilson I have come to a couple conclusions:
1. He doesn't want PvP to flourish at all, "Part of that is PvP isn’t our primary focus, so we want to keep it simple". Even though he acknowleges that many people will be playing the game with PvP in mind and try to make it an E-Sport, he just doesn't want that happening at all. What he doesn't understand is that we don't want an E-Sport we just want a competitive and reasonably balanced PvP enviroment.
2. He keeps trying to make PvP more and more casual, "we have changed the arena mode a bit to feel more casual than the mode that was at Blizzcon which was very last man standing, high-pressure, because if you died, you were done for that round". He wants people to come in and sort of "pwn noobs with a big grin in their face". Which is okay.. but that only works for people who are new to ANY KIND OF GAMING OR ANY KIND OF PVP, and I'm sure that most of the people excited for Diablo arn't that. He also wants to purposely make PvP inbalanced "No, it’s going to be horrifically imbalanced, and that’s part of the fun". That might be the little kid's defenition of fun, but I doubt most people consider unbalanced PvP that fun.
3. Taking the casual to the extreme: Jay Wilson said, " There is no ranking. There is an invisible ranking that we use for matchmaking but it’s a per player basis" In response to the matchmaking system. Why would he even want to do that... I see no logic in that. He follows by stating, "we don’t have a “I’m a 2200 rated player and therefore I am better than you as a 2100 rated player”. What we are focusing on is a more of a progression based system which is “I am a level 20 PvPer” which means I have played a lot of PvP". This is just ... I don't get the desire for the PvP to be so casual. Finally, "Currently, we don’t even do a win/loss ratio. We might do a number of wins but not a number of losses. Even in SC, we found that the number of wins actually feels a lot better than showing a win/loss ratio. That’s why people recycle accounts because people don’t want those losses shown. So, the solution was to not show them. We want to keep it more casual." This part just made me want to punch him, how stupid can someone be.
4. His insistance in PvE when the Diablo series isn't challenging at all when keeping PvE in mind. "Whenever we run into a case where “this would be really awesome for PvE” and the PvP guys says “ that kind of screw PvP” the answer is always “shut up PvP guy, it’s awesome in PvE." Why does he want to insist in making PvE the priority by that much of a margin when the PvE system prob won't be challenging. Even in WoW where the PvE system is decently challenging a lot of people find PvP just that much more fun. Basically based on D2 people PvEd so that they could grind gear to PvP and I was pretty sure up until this press event that D3 would be the same.
Overall, I feel like the point he's missing is that PvP is a huge part of Diablo. Argueably the only reason why D2 lived for so long is because of PvP. The main reason why people feel like they need to get better gear is to own people not to SLASH DEM EZMODE GRINDABLE MONSTERS HARDER. Even though Jay Wilson wants to make PvE the primary aspect of Diablo it's not possible to keep people hooked up on Diablo by just PvEing unless there's a really good and complicated end mode PvE system with new PvE coming out every few months. Anyhow, if that does happen, he should still strive to make PvP as best as possible not fucking ignore it. Anyways, if you want you can read Sixen's interview with Jay Wilson, but I'm pretty sure you will come to the same conclusions that I have come to.
Basically my suggestions are:
-Ranking System
-Good Matchmaking System
Gear+Raiting wise leaning on 65-70% Raiting 30-35% Gear for the matchmaking values
-Just tuning down Dmg/Stuns/Slows for PvP (Have a PvP version and PvE version of a skill so it doesn't alter PvE)
dude i think u are kite worng, with this change no stats and traits and tree talents the most important thing in pvp ill be "possible" .... make it balanced
If you read his response to the hardcore PvP question I think you can get a gauge on his personal opinions versus the PvP design team's opinions:
Q: Hardcore, you had mentioned that you changed it to a death match where you respawn and do total kills. Is this still when you die that first time you are dead forever?
A: That’s what I want to do. There is a lot of pushback on the team. I announced that at Blizzcon and the community were all for it. We have gotten a bit of mixed results outside of Blizzcon. It’s easy for me to get a crowd worked up so… The PvP strike team that focuses on that area, they are pretty nervous about it. Their basic feeling is that if that is what happens, then hardcore characters just won’t PvP. But then there was hardcore dueling in D2 so we may change that. We may allow hardcore PvP players to play without dying. That being said, I still want a way for hardcore players to duel even if not at ship. I am going to push for a way. Even if its basically just a place where you can go in the world where you are flagged for PvP. Even if it is that simple, there is a community, even if it’s a small community that I want to support. Those fuckers are crazy. Part of me it like aww you crazy bastards.
So in his defense, he does support PvP and wants to do more just that it doesn't agree with the overall game directive.
Regarding why they took the casual road on D3 PvP - because it will never live up to the level of quality that we have come to expect from another competitive-gaming Blizzard product: Starcraft. And they took their lesson from WoW about attempting to marry PvP and PvE balanced in the same game. It's just silly when it makes more sense to just make one better rather than leave both mediocre. Unfortunately for us PvP fans (myself included), we're not going to see those serious aspects of PvPing make it into the game. These changes are to retain appeal for PvP in a PvE game.
I would remain optimistic though. We may yet see improvements to PvP in future expansion especially if there is a strong enough community interested in it.
just another thing... this isnt a mmo man with u wanna play wow just go and play it.... diablo3 isnt a worldofwarcraft
PvP = MMO
AHHH, how I love the 80IQ mentality.
They support PvP but they will work the least possible on it.
Also go enjoy slaying monsters without getting bored after a couple months kiddy.
dude i think u are kite worng, with this change no stats and traits and tree talents the most important thing in pvp ill be "possible" .... make it balanced
oh my! You are also blind! he stated that pvp will be horribly inbalanced
If you read his response to the hardcore PvP question I think you can get a gauge on his personal opinions versus the PvP design team's opinions:
Q: Hardcore, you had mentioned that you changed it to a death match where you respawn and do total kills. Is this still when you die that first time you are dead forever?
A: That’s what I want to do. There is a lot of pushback on the team. I announced that at Blizzcon and the community were all for it. We have gotten a bit of mixed results outside of Blizzcon. It’s easy for me to get a crowd worked up so… The PvP strike team that focuses on that area, they are pretty nervous about it. Their basic feeling is that if that is what happens, then hardcore characters just won’t PvP. But then there was hardcore dueling in D2 so we may change that. We may allow hardcore PvP players to play without dying. That being said, I still want a way for hardcore players to duel even if not at ship. I am going to push for a way. Even if its basically just a place where you can go in the world where you are flagged for PvP. Even if it is that simple, there is a community, even if it’s a small community that I want to support. Those fuckers are crazy. Part of me it like aww you crazy bastards.
So in his defense, he does support PvP and wants to do more just that it doesn't agree with the overall game directive.
Regarding why they took the casual road on D3 PvP - because it will never live up to the level of quality that we have come to expect from another competitive-gaming Blizzard product: Starcraft. And they took their lesson from WoW about attempting to marry PvP and PvE balanced in the same game. It's just silly when it makes more sense to just make one better rather than leave both mediocre. Unfortunately for us PvP fans (myself included), we're not going to see those serious aspects of PvPing make it into the game. These changes are to retain appeal for PvP in a PvE game.
I would remain optimistic though. We may yet see improvements to PvP in future expansion especially if there is a strong enough community interested in it.
I mean sure he can make PvE insane, but why doesn't he try to make PvP the best possible instead of just give up on it.. i don't get it.
just another thing... this isnt a mmo man with u wanna play wow just go and play it.... diablo3 isnt a worldofwarcraft
Sersiously, whats wrong with you?
Why post something shitty like that when OP made some good points, like them or not.
I am too bummed about the non-existent competitive PvP. I was really happy and satisfied with getting a ladder (even without PvP balance, rewards, e-sports tourneys, replays etc). I just wanted to play with my friends in a ladder and try to climb.
I can't believe the amount of hate towards PvP players and removing the ladder was the final nail in the coffin for me. I don't want rewards in PvP, I don't want balance (I will reroll what is balanced at the moment), I don't want achivements... but the only thing I want is some sort of competitive feel which is a ladder.
Funny thing is they are going to use the bnet matchmaking system but just not use the leagues/ladders functionality.
Jay Wilson is so out of touch I can't even begin. Making a ladder without anything else would been satisfying enough but he couldn't even give that. Sad what the D3 team under Activision has become.
They pretty much took all the things I've expected from pvp and said ''not doing any of it''.
Casual pvp, no ranks, imbalanced, they are even considering HC duels not being HC at all, seriously, wtf blizzard? You know how to make great games, but when you want to fuck it up you guys surely go all out..
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
They pretty much took all the things I've expected from pvp and said ''not doing any of it''.
Casual pvp, no ranks, imbalanced, they are even considering HC duels not being HC at all, seriously, wtf blizzard? You know how to make great games, but when you want to fuck it up you guys surely go all out..
They pretty much took all the things I've expected from pvp and said ''not doing any of it''.
Casual pvp, no ranks, imbalanced, they are even considering HC duels not being HC at all, seriously, wtf blizzard? You know how to make great games, but when you want to fuck it up you guys surely go all out..
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
I'll be very sad if they make HC dueling not kill your character. The only reason I liked PvP was because of hardcore. The thrill of the battle was far more exhilarating than any game I've played competitively. Just can't touch the joy of victory, the near death experiences, and the occasional loss of a dueler.
I can understand the longing for a better PvP system but I don't think it will matter that much if they balance towards it. Diablo 2 Pvp was tons of fun without them even caring. I wish they would just put more into PvP outside of balance, nothing wrong with making an aspect of the game better even if it doesn't help towards their main "purpose" of the game.
They pretty much took all the things I've expected from pvp and said ''not doing any of it''.
Casual pvp, no ranks, imbalanced, they are even considering HC duels not being HC at all, seriously, wtf blizzard? You know how to make great games, but when you want to fuck it up you guys surely go all out..
^
oh yeah btw:
Argentina > Brazil :PP <3
(both teams playing horribly sadly)
Pele > Maradona
Neymar > Messi .... (NOT)
<3
i have to agree about pele =( but maradona is close
just another thing... this isnt a mmo man with u wanna play wow just go and play it.... diablo3 isnt a worldofwarcraft
SO... this is Diablo3???
...and since there no serious PvP system (this is no sc2) in it and cannot by default be a hard-based PvE system (this is no WoW) whats left ?
...PvM FARMING AS TO LOOT ITEMS FOR REAL MONEY AH ???
1 comment : GO BACK TO CHINA PLZ
This..... Seriously i'm so mad about the lack of PvP.... and while some say IDC I RATHER PVM... i don't understand how they could? I mean... i don't see the point of farming the same boss hundred of times just to get geared up and not have a challenging pvp system or any system at all....? This game to me after these recent changes feel more like a business than a game with RMAH and a half assed pvp system.
All I have to say is, that team deathmatch in diablo 3 wont work out. 10 minutes of infinite dieing and coming back into battle again, until the timer hits 0 and the team with most kills wins .... lololol... is this a f*ckin fps game? It'll come to camping respawn points of your enemies and covering it with infinite <insert your best skill>.
Jay Wilson, you can do this shit-concept if you ever develop something like quake 3 or cs. The reasoning behind the removal of the last-man-standing concept is just bullnyerking crap, and feels not right at all!!!
So far, pvp in d3 is dead, right now, in before release. LOL!
There's no reason to train hard and develop tactics to own the other team, lol no, they respawn anyway. We'll just be using our most imbalanced skills and spam them into their direction of respawn. Great experience!
Up until earlier I was under the impression there will be some sort of ranking, and that they were actually driving for a low-level competitive PVP scene ( Not E-sports, but competitive)
I was really looking forward to spending countless hours ranking in the PVP arena, and I was abit saddened with there direction, but I can understand and move on from it ( I dont have to make QQ whine threads like most of the others)
When I read Jay's answer's something doesn't seem right, especially based on how he talked about PVP at blizzcon 2010 and when he did say the liked the prospect of tournament/competition's arising, to do a full turn around and completely to be against any form of competitive ranked PVP is abit weird, I'm either thinking they just didn't have the time to spend on finishing of and supporting the Ranking system, or there just going to suprise us later, possibly after release ( patched in ) or in expansion to have more support for ranked PVP
All in all, I'm abit disappointed in the current scheme of PVP portrayed by Jay, but it wont affect my overall enjoyment of the game, I will just take it as it is, and hope further down the line they decide to add and support ranked competitive PVP.
As I'm aware at this point there is still a "PVP Level", the banner system can show off your PVP accomplishments and PVP achievement's, sure this isn't a competitive ranking system at this point, but as far as im concerned it will still be fun and enough features for me to push myself many hours in the arena, we can only hope somewhere down the road they possibly implement some sort of Competitive Ranked PVP feature
when I read the things about PvP I was like... idk I stood there staring at my screen kept reading on and it just all went worst I couldn't believe it
I was so fucking excited for D3 I mean I told a friend of mine who plays video games with me (only one who does) that like D3 was the only game ever that I ever felt the need to predownload (digital version shit) and play the second it starts
then I read this shit and while I'll play diablo it just... idk I play all games to PvP
@ellis exactly we don't want an e-sport we want a ranking based game WITH SOME KID OF BALANCE NOT EVEN MUCH. I mean basically just tune out dmg for PvP and that's it say WW hits 5k on PvE make it hit 1k on PvP and THAT'S IT just balance dmg and stuns and slows and you're GOOD TO FUCKING GO. A RANKING SYSTEM WITH A WIN/LOSS IS SO OBVIOUS TO MAKE... LIKE CMON. The Win/loss shit was basically my OK THIS IS ENOUGH trigger.
IN summary all we need is
-Ranking System
-Good Matchmaking System
Gear+Raiting wise leaning on 65-70% Raiting 30-35% Gear for the matchmaking
-Just tuning down Dmg/Stuns/Slows for PvP (easy as fuck to do)
-(This one not so much) But if someone wants to fucking wager on the matches let them god damn wager it doesn't make it an e-sport
Honestly it doesn't matter, we have no PvP support in Diablo 1 or 2 and those turned out great. Regardless of how clueless or bad at PvP jay and crew are the community will eventually take over like Diablo 2 and it will be the same grind gear for PvP, there will still be money matches and FT5 and online ladders, what annoys me is he hasn't announced a way to duel mid PvM yet has he? I don't want to only 2+v2+, I want 1v1 and I want it mid game and not have to exit and join a dumbass arena.
I share your concerns. I'm overall worried about the whole endgame scenario now. I dont think they realize how many people actually pvp'd in diablo 2. I'm worried endgame consists of magic finding and selling items on ah. That will only hold some of us for awhile.
Personally I seek a challenge when I play a video game. I went through progressions in d2 in my day, and I'll do the same here. I lvled up softcore and geared him until It just wasnt that much fun magic finding for whole days to further 1 shot mobs. So I turned to hardcore. That was fun for awhile too until I figured it out and did the same. Then I turn to lvling up the worst possible spec I can in hardcore. That gets old too.
Then you turn to pvp, which is always different. This is where the majority of my gameplay revolved. Its why I rerolled toon after toon for 1 vitality point, and why I continued to farm and lvl up for those next 5 points.
Ill say the pvp sounds a bit better then what we had in d2, but that is no excuse. None. This is almost 12 years later. Simply giving us a place to pvp besides act 1 is not exactly leaps and bounds in the right direction for a viable endgame. We, as gamers, hunt a challenge. Moving up a ladder no matter how imbalanced, is progression.
To me simply gearing up to kill some easy to kill pve monsters 1 second faster isnt progression. It would be different if the game was hard. But diablo is a mass monster murder game where we will be farming the hardest bosses in the game ad nauseum over and over and over. So there is no real challenge pve wise outside of hardcore.
I do think tdm works pretty well though. I just wish it was semi ranked or something or at least had a win/loss ratio. Last man standing in instagib doesnt sound too appealing to me. tdm sounds more like a controlled act 1. I just want more fleshing out of the stats, etc.
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1. He doesn't want PvP to flourish at all, "Part of that is PvP isn’t our primary focus, so we want to keep it simple". Even though he acknowleges that many people will be playing the game with PvP in mind and try to make it an E-Sport, he just doesn't want that happening at all. What he doesn't understand is that we don't want an E-Sport we just want a competitive and reasonably balanced PvP enviroment.
2. He keeps trying to make PvP more and more casual, "we have changed the arena mode a bit to feel more casual than the mode that was at Blizzcon which was very last man standing, high-pressure, because if you died, you were done for that round". He wants people to come in and sort of "pwn noobs with a big grin in their face". Which is okay.. but that only works for people who are new to ANY KIND OF GAMING OR ANY KIND OF PVP, and I'm sure that most of the people excited for Diablo arn't that. He also wants to purposely make PvP inbalanced "No, it’s going to be horrifically imbalanced, and that’s part of the fun". That might be the little kid's defenition of fun, but I doubt most people consider unbalanced PvP that fun.
3. Taking the casual to the extreme: Jay Wilson said, " There is no ranking. There is an invisible ranking that we use for matchmaking but it’s a per player basis" In response to the matchmaking system. Why would he even want to do that... I see no logic in that. He follows by stating, "we don’t have a “I’m a 2200 rated player and therefore I am better than you as a 2100 rated player”. What we are focusing on is a more of a progression based system which is “I am a level 20 PvPer” which means I have played a lot of PvP". This is just ... I don't get the desire for the PvP to be so casual. Finally, "Currently, we don’t even do a win/loss ratio. We might do a number of wins but not a number of losses. Even in SC, we found that the number of wins actually feels a lot better than showing a win/loss ratio. That’s why people recycle accounts because people don’t want those losses shown. So, the solution was to not show them. We want to keep it more casual." This part just made me want to punch him, how stupid can someone be.
4. His insistance in PvE when the Diablo series isn't challenging at all when keeping PvE in mind. "Whenever we run into a case where “this would be really awesome for PvE” and the PvP guys says “ that kind of screw PvP” the answer is always “shut up PvP guy, it’s awesome in PvE." Why does he want to insist in making PvE the priority by that much of a margin when the PvE system prob won't be challenging. Even in WoW where the PvE system is decently challenging a lot of people find PvP just that much more fun. Basically based on D2 people PvEd so that they could grind gear to PvP and I was pretty sure up until this press event that D3 would be the same.
Overall, I feel like the point he's missing is that PvP is a huge part of Diablo. Argueably the only reason why D2 lived for so long is because of PvP. The main reason why people feel like they need to get better gear is to own people not to SLASH DEM EZMODE GRINDABLE MONSTERS HARDER. Even though Jay Wilson wants to make PvE the primary aspect of Diablo it's not possible to keep people hooked up on Diablo by just PvEing unless there's a really good and complicated end mode PvE system with new PvE coming out every few months. Anyhow, if that does happen, he should still strive to make PvP as best as possible not fucking ignore it. Anyways, if you want you can read Sixen's interview with Jay Wilson, but I'm pretty sure you will come to the same conclusions that I have come to.
Basically my suggestions are:
-Ranking System
-Good Matchmaking System
Gear+Raiting wise leaning on 65-70% Raiting 30-35% Gear for the matchmaking values
-Just tuning down Dmg/Stuns/Slows for PvP (Have a PvP version and PvE version of a skill so it doesn't alter PvE)
So in his defense, he does support PvP and wants to do more just that it doesn't agree with the overall game directive.
Regarding why they took the casual road on D3 PvP - because it will never live up to the level of quality that we have come to expect from another competitive-gaming Blizzard product: Starcraft. And they took their lesson from WoW about attempting to marry PvP and PvE balanced in the same game. It's just silly when it makes more sense to just make one better rather than leave both mediocre. Unfortunately for us PvP fans (myself included), we're not going to see those serious aspects of PvPing make it into the game. These changes are to retain appeal for PvP in a PvE game.
I would remain optimistic though. We may yet see improvements to PvP in future expansion especially if there is a strong enough community interested in it.
AHHH, how I love the 80IQ mentality.
They support PvP but they will work the least possible on it.
Also go enjoy slaying monsters without getting bored after a couple months kiddy.
dude i think u are kite worng, with this change no stats and traits and tree talents the most important thing in pvp ill be "possible" .... make it balanced
oh my! You are also blind! he stated that pvp will be horribly inbalanced
Casual pvp, no ranks, imbalanced, they are even considering HC duels not being HC at all, seriously, wtf blizzard? You know how to make great games, but when you want to fuck it up you guys surely go all out..
oh yeah btw:
Argentina > Brazil :PP <3
(both teams playing horribly sadly)
Pele > Maradona
Neymar > Messi .... (NOT)
<3
I can understand the longing for a better PvP system but I don't think it will matter that much if they balance towards it. Diablo 2 Pvp was tons of fun without them even caring. I wish they would just put more into PvP outside of balance, nothing wrong with making an aspect of the game better even if it doesn't help towards their main "purpose" of the game.
Jay Wilson, you can do this shit-concept if you ever develop something like quake 3 or cs. The reasoning behind the removal of the last-man-standing concept is just bullnyerking crap, and feels not right at all!!!
So far, pvp in d3 is dead, right now, in before release. LOL!
There's no reason to train hard and develop tactics to own the other team, lol no, they respawn anyway. We'll just be using our most imbalanced skills and spam them into their direction of respawn. Great experience!
SKILLED PVP INCOMING ^^
I was really looking forward to spending countless hours ranking in the PVP arena, and I was abit saddened with there direction, but I can understand and move on from it ( I dont have to make QQ whine threads like most of the others)
When I read Jay's answer's something doesn't seem right, especially based on how he talked about PVP at blizzcon 2010 and when he did say the liked the prospect of tournament/competition's arising, to do a full turn around and completely to be against any form of competitive ranked PVP is abit weird, I'm either thinking they just didn't have the time to spend on finishing of and supporting the Ranking system, or there just going to suprise us later, possibly after release ( patched in ) or in expansion to have more support for ranked PVP
All in all, I'm abit disappointed in the current scheme of PVP portrayed by Jay, but it wont affect my overall enjoyment of the game, I will just take it as it is, and hope further down the line they decide to add and support ranked competitive PVP.
As I'm aware at this point there is still a "PVP Level", the banner system can show off your PVP accomplishments and PVP achievement's, sure this isn't a competitive ranking system at this point, but as far as im concerned it will still be fun and enough features for me to push myself many hours in the arena, we can only hope somewhere down the road they possibly implement some sort of Competitive Ranked PVP feature
I was so fucking excited for D3 I mean I told a friend of mine who plays video games with me (only one who does) that like D3 was the only game ever that I ever felt the need to predownload (digital version shit) and play the second it starts
then I read this shit and while I'll play diablo it just... idk I play all games to PvP
@ellis exactly we don't want an e-sport we want a ranking based game WITH SOME KID OF BALANCE NOT EVEN MUCH. I mean basically just tune out dmg for PvP and that's it say WW hits 5k on PvE make it hit 1k on PvP and THAT'S IT just balance dmg and stuns and slows and you're GOOD TO FUCKING GO. A RANKING SYSTEM WITH A WIN/LOSS IS SO OBVIOUS TO MAKE... LIKE CMON. The Win/loss shit was basically my OK THIS IS ENOUGH trigger.
IN summary all we need is
-Ranking System
-Good Matchmaking System
Gear+Raiting wise leaning on 65-70% Raiting 30-35% Gear for the matchmaking
-Just tuning down Dmg/Stuns/Slows for PvP (easy as fuck to do)
-(This one not so much) But if someone wants to fucking wager on the matches let them god damn wager it doesn't make it an e-sport
Personally I seek a challenge when I play a video game. I went through progressions in d2 in my day, and I'll do the same here. I lvled up softcore and geared him until It just wasnt that much fun magic finding for whole days to further 1 shot mobs. So I turned to hardcore. That was fun for awhile too until I figured it out and did the same. Then I turn to lvling up the worst possible spec I can in hardcore. That gets old too.
Then you turn to pvp, which is always different. This is where the majority of my gameplay revolved. Its why I rerolled toon after toon for 1 vitality point, and why I continued to farm and lvl up for those next 5 points.
Ill say the pvp sounds a bit better then what we had in d2, but that is no excuse. None. This is almost 12 years later. Simply giving us a place to pvp besides act 1 is not exactly leaps and bounds in the right direction for a viable endgame. We, as gamers, hunt a challenge. Moving up a ladder no matter how imbalanced, is progression.
To me simply gearing up to kill some easy to kill pve monsters 1 second faster isnt progression. It would be different if the game was hard. But diablo is a mass monster murder game where we will be farming the hardest bosses in the game ad nauseum over and over and over. So there is no real challenge pve wise outside of hardcore.
I do think tdm works pretty well though. I just wish it was semi ranked or something or at least had a win/loss ratio. Last man standing in instagib doesnt sound too appealing to me. tdm sounds more like a controlled act 1. I just want more fleshing out of the stats, etc.