No binding+shared stash also mean players are going to only have 1 main "artisan character" anyway
Eliminates time spent character switching which brakes immersion and is not fun
Artisans are a great addition to the world of sanctuary, because in stead of forcing characters to spend game time beating an anvil they encourage players to get out there and kill stuff while there artisans beat that anvil for them. And killing stuff is what most people want to do when they log into a Diablo game.
Thanks to Diablo 3s complete omission of any gear binding system, artisans allow us to create gear for not only ourselves but our alts and our friends as well! Which I feel deeply strengthens the co-op experience. This WOULD however be a way of overly twinking and braking the power progression of continuously "gearing" as you level up IF it were not for the character level requirements on each piece of gear preventing its use by characters of lower than intended level.
This Clvl equip restriction still allows you to get a pretty nice piece of gear for your level e.g. if you just barely met the requirement of an item your friend/main gave you. But prevents you from elevating yourself to god status by using the crafting system to shortcut progression.
Granted, it does feel a little odd to have your lvl60 artisan appear in the caravan of your lvl6 noobie character. But I feel that by the time one has one of there artisans that high in level you won't much care anymore because you will have beaten the game several times.
Also, it seems rather illogical that you would simply assume that everyone in the world of Sanctuary is only as progressed as you are. Its equally an absurd notion to think that everyone in the world just magically becomes better the instant youlevel up as it is to think that when you walk into a town every person should be raggedy and bland, just starting out in there careers, simply because you are low level.
In the End
The bottom line is that with no binding system in place, people are going to have one main "artisan character" anyway. And simply transfer all of there materials and recipes to that one artisan simply because it would be to much of a hassle to try and remember which of your characters artisans has that one sweet recipe.
And there in no point in spending effort leveling multiple artisans if you can just trade the goods from one character to another and one artisan can be a master of everything. This is Especially true because of the new shared stash. Which is another feature that likewise simplifies a process players were going use anyway and allows you to do it in game, without all the nonsense of repeated character swapping.
I think I addressed most of the major pros and cons. Anything I missed? Thoughts? Discussion?
I'm pretty sure we get a shared stash this time around, so I could just trade my materials to my higher level character and have them make the item. Unless for some reason that isn't possible.
I'm pretty sure we get a shared stash this time around, so I could just trade my materials to my higher level character and have them make the item. Unless for some reason that isn't possible.
So yeah I think you're right.
That's what he's saying, just eliminate the middle man by having access to the higher lvl artisan with the lower lvl character directly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes, because then you're a mile away, and you have his shoes." - Douglas Adams
I would imaged that items crafted by artisans will simply have level/stat requirement in portion to the complexity of the item crafted as stated above, so in essence nothing does prevent a communal artisan. however, the intended purpose is that your specific character did some quest to gain access to the artisan and that specific character invested to improve that artisan. thus i do not think they should be communal because you can easily subvert it with your higher level characters. Although it will be an inconvenience, that is the way it should be because it is the exact same way that higher level character help power lower level character: by virtue of just finding better gear/runes/gems and transferring to them because they actually be useful for that character and even giving money to them to buy better gear.
Wasnt it like that one char can specialize with only one of the three artisans? Because then you would need at least three chars to have all three artisans to use. I think that would make sense. And I also think that Blizzard will make up a way to make the artisan-gaming specific and not TOO easy for players.
Personally I hope that they wont make shared artisans. But there must be some restrictions to not let people cheat with that shared stash thing.
You may be right sir, but it's my understanding that in the current build you can not only get all three artisans on a single character but also specialize with all of them, and beyond that specialize with each one in EVERY single specialization. All on one character, which combined with no BoE/BoP + Shared Stash completely eliminates any gain you could get from leveling multiples of the same artisans on different characters.
So.. if we essentially have one useful set of artisans for all of our characters anyway... why do we need all the useless individual ones?
I would imaged that items crafted by artisans will simply have level/stat requirement in portion to the complexity of the item crafted as stated above, so in essence nothing does prevent a communal artisan. however, the intended purpose is that your specific character did some quest to gain access to the artisan and that specific character invested to improve that artisan. thus i do not think they should be communal because you can easily subvert it with your higher level characters. Although it will be an inconvenience, that is the way it should be because it is the exact same way that higher level character help power lower level character: by virtue of just finding better gear/runes/gems and transferring to them because they actually be useful for that character and even giving money to them to buy better gear.
The addition of the Shared Stash has already made this type of "twinking" a reality, and it truth people were doing it way before that in D2, it was just more difficult.
However while this allows you to get the best gear for the level your alt/friend is at, the Clvl requirements prevent you from short cutting item progression.
Wasnt it like that one char can specialize with only one of the three artisans? Because then you would need at least three chars to have all three artisans to use. I think that would make sense. And I also think that Blizzard will make up a way to make the artisan-gaming specific and not TOO easy for players.
Personally I hope that they wont make shared artisans. But there must be some restrictions to not let people cheat with that shared stash thing.
You may be right sir, but it's my understanding that in the current build you can not only get all three artisans on a single character but also specialize with all of them, and beyond that specialize with each one in EVERY single specialization. All on one character, which combined with no BoE/BoP + Shared Stash completely eliminates any gain you could get from leveling multiples of the same artisans on different characters.
So.. if we essentially have one useful set of artisans for all of our characters anyway... why do we need all the useless individual ones?
I would imaged that items crafted by artisans will simply have level/stat requirement in portion to the complexity of the item crafted as stated above, so in essence nothing does prevent a communal artisan. however, the intended purpose is that your specific character did some quest to gain access to the artisan and that specific character invested to improve that artisan. thus i do not think they should be communal because you can easily subvert it with your higher level characters. Although it will be an inconvenience, that is the way it should be because it is the exact same way that higher level character help power lower level character: by virtue of just finding better gear/runes/gems and transferring to them because they actually be useful for that character and even giving money to them to buy better gear.
The addition of the Shared Stash has already made this type of "twinking" a reality, and it truth people were doing it way before that in D2, it was just more difficult.
However while this allows you to get the best gear for the level your alt/friend is at, the Clvl requirements prevent you from short cutting item progression.
i don't think you are getting my central argument: artisans are character specific because that specific character did all the work to achieve that artisan and just because you can have high level character feed/powerup lower level characters, that does not justify a communal artisan. when one of your higher level characters finds rune/gem/gear they found it and it doesn't automatically popup into your lower level characters if you want to, you have to physical transfer it to them. in respect to the artisans, it is that specific character that leveled that artisan up and for all intents and purposes of your lower level character he/she is not aware of that higher level artisan's existence. thus they shouldn't have direct access to it, in the same way your friends cant see or use your artisans because its YOUR artisan and not their artisan.
in no way shape or form do am i saying that you won't be able to give stuff you make on one character's artisans and give it to another character anyway (as i intend to do that), i'm arguing that it doesn't make sense that a specific character has direct access to a higher level artisan that they did not earn yet.
Just wanted to point out that I totally agree with Rensuken. I wanted to add that as far as the story goes it doesn't make sense to play through and help this guy in the story line and boom he is fully equiped. It is a part of the story line that you help build up their abilities.
Wasnt it like that one char can specialize with only one of the three artisans? Because then you would need at least three chars to have all three artisans to use. I think that would make sense. And I also think that Blizzard will make up a way to make the artisan-gaming specific and not TOO easy for players.
Personally I hope that they wont make shared artisans. But there must be some restrictions to not let people cheat with that shared stash thing.
You may be right sir, but it's my understanding that in the current build you can not only get all three artisans on a single character but also specialize with all of them, and beyond that specialize with each one in EVERY single specialization. All on one character, which combined with no BoE/BoP + Shared Stash completely eliminates any gain you could get from leveling multiples of the same artisans on different characters.
So.. if we essentially have one useful set of artisans for all of our characters anyway... why do we need all the useless individual ones?
I would imaged that items crafted by artisans will simply have level/stat requirement in portion to the complexity of the item crafted as stated above, so in essence nothing does prevent a communal artisan. however, the intended purpose is that your specific character did some quest to gain access to the artisan and that specific character invested to improve that artisan. thus i do not think they should be communal because you can easily subvert it with your higher level characters. Although it will be an inconvenience, that is the way it should be because it is the exact same way that higher level character help power lower level character: by virtue of just finding better gear/runes/gems and transferring to them because they actually be useful for that character and even giving money to them to buy better gear.
The addition of the Shared Stash has already made this type of "twinking" a reality, and it truth people were doing it way before that in D2, it was just more difficult.
However while this allows you to get the best gear for the level your alt/friend is at, the Clvl requirements prevent you from short cutting item progression.
i don't think you are getting my central argument: artisans are character specific because that specific character did all the work to achieve that artisan and just because you can have high level character feed/powerup lower level characters, that does not justify a communal artisan. when one of your higher level characters finds rune/gem/gear they found it and it doesn't automatically popup into your lower level characters if you want to, you have to physical transfer it to them. in respect to the artisans, it is that specific character that leveled that artisan up and for all intents and purposes of your lower level character he/she is not aware of that higher level artisan's existence. thus they shouldn't have direct access to it, in the same way your friends cant see or use your artisans because its YOUR artisan and not their artisan.
in no way shape or form do am i saying that you won't be able to give stuff you make on one character's artisans and give it to another character anyway (as i intend to do that), i'm arguing that it doesn't make sense that a specific character has direct access to a higher level artisan that they did not earn yet.
That depends on how you view your separate characters. If you see them as existing in different worlds, then you would be right, they don't know the higher level versions of the artisans. But what if you considered your alts as just being other members of the caravan. Only one adventurer needed to leave the caravan at a time, so they weren't doing anything while your high level beat stuff up, but they're still part of the caravan and know all the same people your older characters do, even if they aren't proven enough to battle the greater evils of the later acts.
Basically, I'm suggesting that our account is our caravan, which would make sense if the shared stash is available to all the characters on a single account because all those characters are part of the same caravan, and if that is the reasoning, then why wouldn't all the artisans who have chosen to join the caravan not also be available to all the characters in that caravan(account)?
That said, I can understand some motivations for not making them shared. First, if there is indeed an exclusive specialization at some point then having multiple artisans for multiple specializations would be needed, end of story. Second is it makes for a nearly infinite money sink if every time you make a new character, you open the doors to another potential zillion gold of debt to level them up again. And don't say that because it isn't needed it won't happen. There will come a time when people have more gold than they know what to do with, and they will start leveling their alts' artisans just out of convenience so they don't have to jump back and forth each time they want to make another set of banded armor. Mostly, though, it seems to be a sort of stubborn desire to keep the progression of the artisans deeply connected to the progression of the specific character leveling them up.
Personally, I'm ok with either way, but making them shared would certainly be a large convenience and a huge comfort to those who choose to make hardcore characters (knowing that at least their caravan will be safe if they die).
It depends on what they want to encourage really. If they want to encourage maining, they should let you share the artisans. If they want to encourage alting (and building), they should create multiple specializations for artisans that can't all be acquired on the same character.
It depends on what they want to encourage really. If they want to encourage maining, they should let you share the artisans. If they want to encourage alting (and building), they should create multiple specializations for artisans that can't all be acquired on the same character.
Agreed.
However it appears that they are going in the maining direction by allowing a single artisan to learn ALL specialties and allowing unrestricted item trading. At least in the current build of the game.
Quote from name="Jay Wilson" »
Moreover, you can specialise the three Artisans. The Blacksmith, for instance, can specialise in the crafting of axes. Then you will mostly see axes lying at his stall. Those specialisations will not exclude other ways, however. If you are completely specialised in the crafting of axes, you can still try to make the Artisan learn another specialisation, by gathering the right recipes and resources.
I voted for each character having separate artisans before I read your post (it was sort of a knee-jerk reaction to the question) but you make some good points.
Basically, I'm suggesting that our account is our caravan, which would make sense if the shared stash is available to all the characters on a single account because all those characters are part of the same caravan, and if that is the reasoning, then why wouldn't all the artisans who have chosen to join the caravan not also be available to all the characters in that caravan(account)?
having a personal stash and an account stash was to address horrible mechanic of transferring and muling and solely instituted for our benefit and to fix a bad game mechanic whereas i feel that the artisans are a quest based mechanic of the game. whereas you dont' get access to them until you complete a quest and they are kind of a perpetual side quest throughout the game. Compounded by the notion that diablo is a non-persistent world and when you start a new hero its kind of back to square one of the, i.e. lets say you had to rescue the blacksmith to gain his help, that hero shouldn't have access to that artisan any sooner and when he does the artisan shouldn't already be better than he normally would be. Don't get me wrong, it definitely would be very convenient and if they do make it like that i won't complain; however, to me it just doesn't seem coherent to the story given that they are quest based.
Also on another note, because the artisan are quest based, when you start nightmare/hell will you temporarily lose access to your artisans until you unlock them again?
Basically, I'm suggesting that our account is our caravan, which would make sense if the shared stash is available to all the characters on a single account because all those characters are part of the same caravan, and if that is the reasoning, then why wouldn't all the artisans who have chosen to join the caravan not also be available to all the characters in that caravan(account)?
having a personal stash and an account stash was to address horrible mechanic of transferring and muling and solely instituted for our benefit and to fix a bad game mechanic whereas i feel that the artisans are a quest based mechanic of the game. whereas you dont' get access to them until you complete a quest and they are kind of a perpetual side quest throughout the game. Compounded by the notion that diablo is a non-persistent world and when you start a new hero its kind of back to square one of the, i.e. lets say you had to rescue the blacksmith to gain his help, that hero shouldn't have access to that artisan any sooner and when he does the artisan shouldn't already be better than he normally would be. Don't get me wrong, it definitely would be very convenient and if they do make it like that i won't complain; however, to me it just doesn't seem coherent to the story given that they are quest based.
Also on another note, because the artisan are quest based, when you start nightmare/hell will you temporarily lose access to your artisans until you unlock them again?
I really doubt you will lose access to them, with everything they are doing to make this game better, i think they will just choose to have different quests replace the artisan quests at high difficulties. They seem to be focusing alot on replability and random quests, so in nightmare and hell where you had the artisan quest in normal, you would instead get a random quest, or possibly a fixed quest, but you get the idea. This makes a lot more sense to me than them making you lost access to your artisan. I feel like they are focusing a lot more on having the different difficulties be unique, instead of just increasing the damage and life of enemies and calling it new, which is not very exciting.
I feel that a good solution would be to combine both ideas somewhat.
In all reality, any player who is worth his salt in the problem solving department will likely deduce that maxing each Artisan only one time each on their account will save them trouble and gold. So then, when I want to craft a nifty staff for my lvl 2 Wizard, I won't start from the ground up, I will just log onto my lvl 60 Barbarian who has all Artisans maxed, and mule the item over with the shared stash.
However, it seems that Artisans are "unlocked" on characters via quests. In my ideal world, the way the system would work is that you have shared Artisans on account, but they are available to a character only after that character completes the quest. This way, if I find a really cool new recipe on my second character, I don't have to go through the trouble of muling the recipe to my main, crafting it, then muling the item back.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - "How are the tests on feature XXX going?"
D3 Dev - "Well, our test chimpanzee was not able to understand feature XXX, but he is not a smart chimp."
Jay W - "WHAT?! Have it incinerated! Them simplify, no, REMOVE feature XXX!"
Players - "Wow that was close! I could not understand XXX feature, as I am legally retarded/in the Diablo 3 target audience!"
I thought I remember reading they don't want mindless farming (for things like professions and reputation), so the idea of having shared Artisans, or at least the ability to directly share the items made by Artisans, makes sense. The epitome of mindless farming for Artisans would be having to do each time on each character. I don't mind a big grind, but having to do it on each character, no thank you. I support the idea.
You already have a shared stash, wtf more do you want?
You realize its called twinking right? you realize what the other definition of a twink is right?
You already have a shared stash, wtf more do you want?
You realize its called twinking right? you realize what the other definition of a twink is right?
It's not a matter of what I want, it's what I do not want, Dead Functionality.
According to everything that we know about Artisans there is NO REASON to level them up more than once per account.
You have the "option" to level up the Artisans of your other characters for ZERO benefit. I don't want useless Artisans and extraneous dead end, time wasting gameplay "options".
Why it makes sense
Bullet summary for those who don't like to read.
Artisans are a great addition to the world of sanctuary, because in stead of forcing characters to spend game time beating an anvil they encourage players to get out there and kill stuff while there artisans beat that anvil for them. And killing stuff is what most people want to do when they log into a Diablo game.
Thanks to Diablo 3s complete omission of any gear binding system, artisans allow us to create gear for not only ourselves but our alts and our friends as well! Which I feel deeply strengthens the co-op experience. This WOULD however be a way of overly twinking and braking the power progression of continuously "gearing" as you level up IF it were not for the character level requirements on each piece of gear preventing its use by characters of lower than intended level.
This Clvl equip restriction still allows you to get a pretty nice piece of gear for your level e.g. if you just barely met the requirement of an item your friend/main gave you. But prevents you from elevating yourself to god status by using the crafting system to shortcut progression.
Granted, it does feel a little odd to have your lvl60 artisan appear in the caravan of your lvl6 noobie character. But I feel that by the time one has one of there artisans that high in level you won't much care anymore because you will have beaten the game several times.
Also, it seems rather illogical that you would simply assume that everyone in the world of Sanctuary is only as progressed as you are. Its equally an absurd notion to think that everyone in the world just magically becomes better the instant you level up as it is to think that when you walk into a town every person should be raggedy and bland, just starting out in there careers, simply because you are low level.
And there in no point in spending effort leveling multiple artisans if you can just trade the goods from one character to another and one artisan can be a master of everything. This is Especially true because of the new shared stash. Which is another feature that likewise simplifies a process players were going use anyway and allows you to do it in game, without all the nonsense of repeated character swapping.
I think I addressed most of the major pros and cons. Anything I missed? Thoughts? Discussion?
Sad =(
First thing that comes to mind.
"Patch that shit!"
So yeah I think you're right.
You may be right sir, but it's my understanding that in the current build you can not only get all three artisans on a single character but also specialize with all of them, and beyond that specialize with each one in EVERY single specialization. All on one character, which combined with no BoE/BoP + Shared Stash completely eliminates any gain you could get from leveling multiples of the same artisans on different characters.
So.. if we essentially have one useful set of artisans for all of our characters anyway... why do we need all the useless individual ones?
The addition of the Shared Stash has already made this type of "twinking" a reality, and it truth people were doing it way before that in D2, it was just more difficult.
However while this allows you to get the best gear for the level your alt/friend is at, the Clvl requirements prevent you from short cutting item progression.
i don't think you are getting my central argument: artisans are character specific because that specific character did all the work to achieve that artisan and just because you can have high level character feed/powerup lower level characters, that does not justify a communal artisan. when one of your higher level characters finds rune/gem/gear they found it and it doesn't automatically popup into your lower level characters if you want to, you have to physical transfer it to them. in respect to the artisans, it is that specific character that leveled that artisan up and for all intents and purposes of your lower level character he/she is not aware of that higher level artisan's existence. thus they shouldn't have direct access to it, in the same way your friends cant see or use your artisans because its YOUR artisan and not their artisan.
in no way shape or form do am i saying that you won't be able to give stuff you make on one character's artisans and give it to another character anyway (as i intend to do that), i'm arguing that it doesn't make sense that a specific character has direct access to a higher level artisan that they did not earn yet.
That depends on how you view your separate characters. If you see them as existing in different worlds, then you would be right, they don't know the higher level versions of the artisans. But what if you considered your alts as just being other members of the caravan. Only one adventurer needed to leave the caravan at a time, so they weren't doing anything while your high level beat stuff up, but they're still part of the caravan and know all the same people your older characters do, even if they aren't proven enough to battle the greater evils of the later acts.
Basically, I'm suggesting that our account is our caravan, which would make sense if the shared stash is available to all the characters on a single account because all those characters are part of the same caravan, and if that is the reasoning, then why wouldn't all the artisans who have chosen to join the caravan not also be available to all the characters in that caravan(account)?
That said, I can understand some motivations for not making them shared. First, if there is indeed an exclusive specialization at some point then having multiple artisans for multiple specializations would be needed, end of story. Second is it makes for a nearly infinite money sink if every time you make a new character, you open the doors to another potential zillion gold of debt to level them up again. And don't say that because it isn't needed it won't happen. There will come a time when people have more gold than they know what to do with, and they will start leveling their alts' artisans just out of convenience so they don't have to jump back and forth each time they want to make another set of banded armor. Mostly, though, it seems to be a sort of stubborn desire to keep the progression of the artisans deeply connected to the progression of the specific character leveling them up.
Personally, I'm ok with either way, but making them shared would certainly be a large convenience and a huge comfort to those who choose to make hardcore characters (knowing that at least their caravan will be safe if they die).
Agreed.
However it appears that they are going in the maining direction by allowing a single artisan to learn ALL specialties and allowing unrestricted item trading. At least in the current build of the game.
Source 1 (Inc Gamers)
Source 2 (Dialowiki.net)
Now I'm not sure
having a personal stash and an account stash was to address horrible mechanic of transferring and muling and solely instituted for our benefit and to fix a bad game mechanic whereas i feel that the artisans are a quest based mechanic of the game. whereas you dont' get access to them until you complete a quest and they are kind of a perpetual side quest throughout the game. Compounded by the notion that diablo is a non-persistent world and when you start a new hero its kind of back to square one of the, i.e. lets say you had to rescue the blacksmith to gain his help, that hero shouldn't have access to that artisan any sooner and when he does the artisan shouldn't already be better than he normally would be. Don't get me wrong, it definitely would be very convenient and if they do make it like that i won't complain; however, to me it just doesn't seem coherent to the story given that they are quest based.
Also on another note, because the artisan are quest based, when you start nightmare/hell will you temporarily lose access to your artisans until you unlock them again?
In all reality, any player who is worth his salt in the problem solving department will likely deduce that maxing each Artisan only one time each on their account will save them trouble and gold. So then, when I want to craft a nifty staff for my lvl 2 Wizard, I won't start from the ground up, I will just log onto my lvl 60 Barbarian who has all Artisans maxed, and mule the item over with the shared stash.
However, it seems that Artisans are "unlocked" on characters via quests. In my ideal world, the way the system would work is that you have shared Artisans on account, but they are available to a character only after that character completes the quest. This way, if I find a really cool new recipe on my second character, I don't have to go through the trouble of muling the recipe to my main, crafting it, then muling the item back.
D3 Dev - "Well, our test chimpanzee was not able to understand feature XXX, but he is not a smart chimp."
Jay W - "WHAT?! Have it incinerated! Them simplify, no, REMOVE feature XXX!"
Players - "Wow that was close! I could not understand XXX feature, as I am legally retarded/in the Diablo 3 target audience!"
You realize its called twinking right? you realize what the other definition of a twink is right?
It's not a matter of what I want, it's what I do not want, Dead Functionality.
According to everything that we know about Artisans there is NO REASON to level them up more than once per account.
You have the "option" to level up the Artisans of your other characters for ZERO benefit. I don't want useless Artisans and extraneous dead end, time wasting gameplay "options".