I think they'll be removed sooner or later. I can't see them not being abused in some manner. Some classes just have skills that allow them to get the globes easier than others. And there you go, it's imbalanced.
This is a very narrow look at class balance.
Nox has a class that has 5 skills, none of them really dealing with movement. And a class that had both blink and teleport. No unbalances. Maybe because if you teleport on the warriors face you'd get one shot instantly by his hammer of doom.
Was more referring to some sick aoe skills etc. that you could just lay down in the area of the globe so the opponent can't take it without dying.
There are two scenarios here:
1. You keep putting AoE on the spot so you're busy with that. The warrior (or w/e melee class) gets a clear shot at you and kills you.
2. The warrior gets it once you stop AoEing.
Problem?
Seriously, you don't HAVE to take that globe anyway, and spamming spells costs mana.
orbs kill the essence of dueling, you are here to fight to the death, you are not playing super mario or some platformer where you have to pickup powerups...what's the point of having a life steal gear if you can get some armor and drink health orbs? it makes alot of the stats useless, I played Diablo II mostly for the PvP, i know low level PVP fights end quickly, but man, i remember those huge fights we had between smiters, all having alot of Armor ,damage and life steal, trying to find out who has the best gear and the best strategy.
those were good times, even though DiabloII's Pvp was very archaic, I always loved it for it's simplicity and the freedom it gave us, that's why i've always compared Diablo IIs Pvp to any MMo out there, and never found a PvP as good as diablo IIs, because in many MMOS they Set too much rules.
All this you are posting here is entirely subjective.
Last time I checked, Quake and Unreal are not compared to Super Mario.
Nor does anything you've said here have anything to do with health globes. Posting a bunch of nostalgic remarks doesn't prove anything at all, since that's present in both systems, and honestly I think skill should be more important than builds in PvP, people getting lucky with some stupid critical hit shouldn't get the win for free. Pickupables do not override builds. If I really have to explain to you why lifesteal is uselful despite health globes you are not going to get very far in PvP.
everything i say is my opinion. I should always add IMO, im not stating facts, but I think Diablo's PvP was never about defending some area or strategy, sure you an dodge or move around and shoot, but for me dueling was always about two guys trying to kill each other with nothing in the way, just trying to see whos best, not who grabs that health globe first.
I find that kind of PvP very boring.
Even World of Tanks is not played with 2 tanks on a completely blank map. Mainly because that's very dumb PvP. Some people like dumb games, I'm not one of them. I can't take a game without positioning seriously, since then it comes down to who shoots who first.
I'm not going to talk about Diablo's PvP because the concept is silly.
Diablo PvP came down to hackers last time I checked.
Diablo II had just that - dumb low-level PvP as an afterthought. I saw some videos of Diablo II PvP it was the most dumbest primitive thing I've ever seen. People spamming the same skill over and over. Yeah, I know, Diablo II's design forced it that way but let's keep that with DII shall we?
Neither are solid examples of PvP so I don't feel Blizzard should look at them too much. They're probably going to look at WoW arenas which were quite broken and hopefully learn from their mistakes there.
All self-respecting PvP games feature some kind of mechanics outside of the players involved, be it obstacles and the like, pickupables, and so on. What is and isn't appropriate depends on gear design and what developers try to achieve. Adding health globes won't really make or break the game and they need to add more than that if they want to make Diablo III's PvP worth looking at twice.
* protect the follower ( descriptions obvious XD)
* Smash the orb, basically one teams try to destroy said orb(Stationary ), while the other protects it ( maybe room for 2 way)
* Conquest. You activate 3-5 waypoints, and try to hold them, you gain a point for each waypoint you hold for each second
if an enemy captures it you no longer have it.
Maybe this is taking it too far? XD I dunno, but I love tactical scenarios in a game, as apposed to just kill the enemy, at least for a change of pace.
but I guess health globes will be a sort of king of the hill type scenario, if you can protect the health globe spawn for yourself you pretty much win
Camping won't be possible for health globes. Watch any vid and you can see Nybody gets owned if they stand still for only a few seconds.
Obviously, but unless one team had a death, then chances are pretty good that whoever gets the most globes wins the fight because of how much they heal. So at a specific point in the game it is not the most skilled team that wins, it is the team that manages to grab enough globes. So at that point it turns into an objective based game type based on grabbing as many health globes as possible while preventing your enemies from doing the same. I'm sure this kind of strategic change appeals to a lot of people, but not to me. I want deathmatch to be all about taking down your enemies, focusing on their skills, not on grabbing health orbs when they spawn. It won't matter if my team deals twice the damage of my opponents if they get all the globes, so in my eyes health globes appears to be the main objective of the game type. Damaging the enemy more than they damage you is secondary.
I'm not against health orbs, I'm sure it is a fun thing, but if I would choose to include it in the default PvP mode or not, I would not.
EDIT:
Health globes have to be there otherwise matches would last only for a few seconds minute max.
That is up to Blizzard to decide. If they want longer matches they can simply reduce the damage against players.
EXACTLY what I have thought since I first saw the area footage.
The default deathmatch mode should NOT be objective based, and adding health globes 100% shifts it to objective based play, and horrendously devalues raw pvp skill.
But these "objectives" encourage the use of your PvP abilities, which can appropriately be used to prevent or obtain advantages in the match. 100%? It's not an orb-munching game of pacman. They're not going to break the game, but you also can't ignore them. Guess what will have a much greater impact than catching orbs: play skill.
But these "objectives" encourage the use of your PvP abilities, which can appropriately be used to prevent or obtain advantages in the match. 100%? It's not an orb-munching game of pacman. They're not going to break the game, but you also can't ignore them. Guess what will have a much greater impact than catching orbs: play skill.
+Rep
It is true that you use abilities on other players to complete pvp objectives, and you're right "100%" was a poor choice of words.
However, what I was trying to say was that the priority list if you want to win the match shifts completely to.
Collect Health Orbs
Kill the enemy
The priority is only split two ways, but the priority of killing you opponent just went from top(only) to bottom! That's what I don't like about it. The effect of health globes is that every 40 seconds or so there is a mini "race" and the winner gets HP. The fact that can use my spells to help me win the race or see it coming is not a redeeming factor in my mind. It is still a race, the middle of what SHOULD be a knock down, drag out death match.
I see the value is objective based play, I really do. But this doesn't deserve be the default mode anymore than CTF or King of the Hill.
It's only a matter of time, then everyone will be using it. Even if it's something as simple as hitting f1 when the orb first drops and then a program in the background counts down 3, 2, 1 in audio to tell you when to get ready. Doesn't even have to be integrated into the game at all.
I'd just prefer to see people fight to reach an orb, rather than know where one will drop at all times and exactly when. Stun, fear, slow and disorient people to get to it.
Plan to spend most of my time in the arenas after gearing up.
I love the health globe ideas for Arena, its an ode to oldschool fps' with timed spawns on ammo/health rather than the current crap where you regenerate your health after a period of time of not being shot. Makes me happy that they are implementing it this way.
Also happy that there will be a large variety of builds(well......at least hopefully).
I like the healing globes idea! You all forget that a lot of the other games your mentioning (rpg based) all usually had a healer class or some kind of healing skills; D3 doesn't.
Healing globes at least introduce a very small and yet still fair strategy, the best part being that players who use movement skills can still gain an advantage over characters that deck themselves out in offensive and defensive skills.
Oh and I doubt there will be "health globe camping" I watched the pvp videos, you better be attacking or moving or you get whirlwinded by a barb or meteored; then youll need a lot more than one health globe to make up the difference.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
All self-respecting PvP games feature some kind of mechanics outside of the players involved, be it obstacles and the like, pickupables, and so on. What is and isn't appropriate depends on gear design and what developers try to achieve. Adding health globes won't really make or break the game and they need to add more than that if they want to make Diablo III's PvP worth looking at twice.
The annual Eve Online Alliance Tournament has no such obstacles or power ups, and it still draws epic investment from entrants and fairly impressive viewership every year. I personally think its very interesting to watch, and love PVP in Eve. It gets along fine without any such tom foolery.
Now Eve is a very different game, with lots of dedicated roles in a gang(group) such as healers and CC boats. However I think it's worth mentioning simply to exemplify the fact that a competitive PvP game can and does work, even in an arena style environment without obstacles or pickups.
Now Eve is a very different game, with lots of dedicated roles in a gang(group) such as healers and CC boats. However I think it's worth mentioning simply to exemplify the fact that a competitive PvP game can and does work, even in an arena style environment without obstacles or pickups.
It has nothing to do with dedicated roles.
EVE is a pseudo-TBS game that has locked combat without free movement or dodging or aiming. I.E., it's not a twitch game per se, which is why it doesn't really need anything additional. It's not like my example would apply to fighting games, either. I'm talking more along the lines of games where maps are a big deal (most FPS, games like World of Tanks, isometrics like Nox and DotA, RTS's like SC).
Not to mention, I have no idea how you would implement pickupables in the game (inty's would grab them all?), and currently the games engine doesn't care about obstacles. In fact, Perpetuum, which DOES have LOS and obstacles considered, has slightly more interesting territorial combat IMO.
Fast-paced games, though, turn into a complete bedlam and/or circling and mush when there's nothing in between the players when there's more than 2 people. Some people like it, I personally don't, unless it's 1v1 and only in that case.
Another issue is unbalancing, since direct no-obstacle combat generally makes certain classes and playstyles greatly superior to others, as many rely on narrow passageways to make certain things work. Some classes won't be good at drawn-out games (who has more HP), either. It's like putting Terran and Zerg in a completely blank map with no ramps or walls of any kind.
Health globes will change over beta, thats a fact.
As of now, dueling is all about being able to camp the globes spawning area, and having a spell ready ''cough'' wizard's teleport ''cough'' for a insta party 100% heal, thats ridiculous, This is not a freaking call of duty domination map.
How to improve it:
1) Make the globes spawn in different areas, not always at the same place.
2) Remove party heal, its ok for pve, its bullshit on pvp.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
As of now, dueling is all about being able to camp the globes spawning area, and having a spell ready ''cough'' wizard's teleport ''cough'' for a insta party 100% heal, thats ridiculous, This is not a freaking call of duty domination map.
Every class has a mobility skill, as well as cooldowns to prevent spamming of said skills. In addition, a Wizard with Teleport on cooldown is exactly what the opposing team wants.
How to improve it:
1) Make the globes spawn in different areas, not always at the same place.
2) Remove party heal, its ok for pve, its bullshit on pvp.
1. Globes should spawn in the same place - that's the whole point of producing interesting and competitive play. If it was random, I guarantee more people would whine about it being unfair because it happened to spawn right next to someone else.
2. This is can understand, but then you get the noob player who hogs all the orbs. It's already enough that I have to compete with the other team, I don't want to have to compete with my own teammates for the orbs.
All Valid points, can't say I disagree with you on a single one of them either Equinox.
I would say though that I consider ALL RPG games to be non-twitch in nature. Not that they require no execution or practiced ability to aim spells but that the primary determining factor of victory is meant to be the players understanding of the game and not who has faster fingers. Contest of Reflexes (Which I would consider the polar opposite of contest of skill) imho belong in games like CoD:Black Ops and not Diablo 3.
It may just be my view point of the matter. Even though any real time game (as opposed to turn based) incorporates by necessity some twitch aspects. I've always considered my PvP skills in any game centered around building ones own persistent character (e.g. RPGs) to be primary expressed as how you strategically build and equip your character and proper tactics such as knowing what spells to use when, with twitch execution of those tactics being only a secondary determining factor in ones success.
That is kinda what I expect out of Diablo 3, as I do any RPG. But maybe it's just because I like to call myself an intellectual person, and I tend to place a higher value on things like theory crafting over reflexes and twich gaming.
Every class has a mobility skill, as well as cooldowns to prevent spamming of said skills. In addition, a Wizard with Teleport on cooldown is exactly what the opposing team wants.
I'm pretty sure the wizard skill is the fastest of all the movement skills, after all, it's a teleport, that means the moments the globe spawns, he has it.
1. Globes should spawn in the same place - that's the whole point of producing interesting and competitive play. If it was random, I guarantee more people would whine about it being unfair because it happened to spawn right next to someone else.
2. This is can understand, but then you get the noob player who hogs all the orbs. It's already enough that I have to compete with the other team, I don't want to have to compete with my own teammates for the orbs.
1. When i said random i meant it to have 3-4 possible spawns locations, actually, blizzard is probably working on this one, having just one at the center of the map is so bad i'm not even going to start talking about it. You see, i'm hoping there will be a whole bunch of arenas, not just the one we saw at blizzcon.
2. A complete team heal in just 2 seconds is imbalanced, that's all there is to it. I'd rather deal with a noob teammate with full health, than 4 enemiess with 100% hp after i just nuked the crap out of then.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
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Nox has a class that has 5 skills, none of them really dealing with movement. And a class that had both blink and teleport. No unbalances. Maybe because if you teleport on the warriors face you'd get one shot instantly by his hammer of doom.
There are two scenarios here:
1. You keep putting AoE on the spot so you're busy with that. The warrior (or w/e melee class) gets a clear shot at you and kills you.
2. The warrior gets it once you stop AoEing.
Problem?
Seriously, you don't HAVE to take that globe anyway, and spamming spells costs mana.
-Thomas Jefferson
Last time I checked, Quake and Unreal are not compared to Super Mario.
Nor does anything you've said here have anything to do with health globes. Posting a bunch of nostalgic remarks doesn't prove anything at all, since that's present in both systems, and honestly I think skill should be more important than builds in PvP, people getting lucky with some stupid critical hit shouldn't get the win for free. Pickupables do not override builds. If I really have to explain to you why lifesteal is uselful despite health globes you are not going to get very far in PvP.
I find that kind of PvP very boring.
Even World of Tanks is not played with 2 tanks on a completely blank map. Mainly because that's very dumb PvP. Some people like dumb games, I'm not one of them. I can't take a game without positioning seriously, since then it comes down to who shoots who first.
I'm not going to talk about Diablo's PvP because the concept is silly.
Diablo PvP came down to hackers last time I checked.
Diablo II had just that - dumb low-level PvP as an afterthought. I saw some videos of Diablo II PvP it was the most dumbest primitive thing I've ever seen. People spamming the same skill over and over. Yeah, I know, Diablo II's design forced it that way but let's keep that with DII shall we?
Neither are solid examples of PvP so I don't feel Blizzard should look at them too much. They're probably going to look at WoW arenas which were quite broken and hopefully learn from their mistakes there.
All self-respecting PvP games feature some kind of mechanics outside of the players involved, be it obstacles and the like, pickupables, and so on. What is and isn't appropriate depends on gear design and what developers try to achieve. Adding health globes won't really make or break the game and they need to add more than that if they want to make Diablo III's PvP worth looking at twice.
* protect the follower ( descriptions obvious XD)
* Smash the orb, basically one teams try to destroy said orb(Stationary ), while the other protects it ( maybe room for 2 way)
* Conquest. You activate 3-5 waypoints, and try to hold them, you gain a point for each waypoint you hold for each second
if an enemy captures it you no longer have it.
Maybe this is taking it too far? XD I dunno, but I love tactical scenarios in a game, as apposed to just kill the enemy, at least for a change of pace.
but I guess health globes will be a sort of king of the hill type scenario, if you can protect the health globe spawn for yourself you pretty much win
But maps with obstacles, walls, corridors, mountains, destructibles, whatever, I'd like to see.
EXACTLY what I have thought since I first saw the area footage.
The default deathmatch mode should NOT be objective based, and adding health globes 100% shifts it to objective based play, and horrendously devalues raw pvp skill.
It is true that you use abilities on other players to complete pvp objectives, and you're right "100%" was a poor choice of words.
However, what I was trying to say was that the priority list if you want to win the match shifts completely to.
The priority is only split two ways, but the priority of killing you opponent just went from top(only) to bottom! That's what I don't like about it. The effect of health globes is that every 40 seconds or so there is a mini "race" and the winner gets HP. The fact that can use my spells to help me win the race or see it coming is not a redeeming factor in my mind. It is still a race, the middle of what SHOULD be a knock down, drag out death match.
I see the value is objective based play, I really do. But this doesn't deserve be the default mode anymore than CTF or King of the Hill.
It's only a matter of time, then everyone will be using it. Even if it's something as simple as hitting f1 when the orb first drops and then a program in the background counts down 3, 2, 1 in audio to tell you when to get ready. Doesn't even have to be integrated into the game at all.
I'd just prefer to see people fight to reach an orb, rather than know where one will drop at all times and exactly when. Stun, fear, slow and disorient people to get to it.
I love the health globe ideas for Arena, its an ode to oldschool fps' with timed spawns on ammo/health rather than the current crap where you regenerate your health after a period of time of not being shot. Makes me happy that they are implementing it this way.
Also happy that there will be a large variety of builds(well......at least hopefully).
Healing globes at least introduce a very small and yet still fair strategy, the best part being that players who use movement skills can still gain an advantage over characters that deck themselves out in offensive and defensive skills.
Oh and I doubt there will be "health globe camping" I watched the pvp videos, you better be attacking or moving or you get whirlwinded by a barb or meteored; then youll need a lot more than one health globe to make up the difference.
The annual Eve Online Alliance Tournament has no such obstacles or power ups, and it still draws epic investment from entrants and fairly impressive viewership every year. I personally think its very interesting to watch, and love PVP in Eve. It gets along fine without any such tom foolery.
Now Eve is a very different game, with lots of dedicated roles in a gang(group) such as healers and CC boats. However I think it's worth mentioning simply to exemplify the fact that a competitive PvP game can and does work, even in an arena style environment without obstacles or pickups.
EVE is a pseudo-TBS game that has locked combat without free movement or dodging or aiming. I.E., it's not a twitch game per se, which is why it doesn't really need anything additional. It's not like my example would apply to fighting games, either. I'm talking more along the lines of games where maps are a big deal (most FPS, games like World of Tanks, isometrics like Nox and DotA, RTS's like SC).
Not to mention, I have no idea how you would implement pickupables in the game (inty's would grab them all?), and currently the games engine doesn't care about obstacles. In fact, Perpetuum, which DOES have LOS and obstacles considered, has slightly more interesting territorial combat IMO.
Fast-paced games, though, turn into a complete bedlam and/or circling and mush when there's nothing in between the players when there's more than 2 people. Some people like it, I personally don't, unless it's 1v1 and only in that case.
Another issue is unbalancing, since direct no-obstacle combat generally makes certain classes and playstyles greatly superior to others, as many rely on narrow passageways to make certain things work. Some classes won't be good at drawn-out games (who has more HP), either. It's like putting Terran and Zerg in a completely blank map with no ramps or walls of any kind.
As of now, dueling is all about being able to camp the globes spawning area, and having a spell ready ''cough'' wizard's teleport ''cough'' for a insta party 100% heal, thats ridiculous, This is not a freaking call of duty domination map.
How to improve it:
1) Make the globes spawn in different areas, not always at the same place.
2) Remove party heal, its ok for pve, its bullshit on pvp.
Every class has a mobility skill, as well as cooldowns to prevent spamming of said skills. In addition, a Wizard with Teleport on cooldown is exactly what the opposing team wants.
1. Globes should spawn in the same place - that's the whole point of producing interesting and competitive play. If it was random, I guarantee more people would whine about it being unfair because it happened to spawn right next to someone else.
2. This is can understand, but then you get the noob player who hogs all the orbs. It's already enough that I have to compete with the other team, I don't want to have to compete with my own teammates for the orbs.
I would say though that I consider ALL RPG games to be non-twitch in nature. Not that they require no execution or practiced ability to aim spells but that the primary determining factor of victory is meant to be the players understanding of the game and not who has faster fingers. Contest of Reflexes (Which I would consider the polar opposite of contest of skill) imho belong in games like CoD:Black Ops and not Diablo 3.
It may just be my view point of the matter. Even though any real time game (as opposed to turn based) incorporates by necessity some twitch aspects. I've always considered my PvP skills in any game centered around building ones own persistent character (e.g. RPGs) to be primary expressed as how you strategically build and equip your character and proper tactics such as knowing what spells to use when, with twitch execution of those tactics being only a secondary determining factor in ones success.
That is kinda what I expect out of Diablo 3, as I do any RPG. But maybe it's just because I like to call myself an intellectual person, and I tend to place a higher value on things like theory crafting over reflexes and twich gaming.
I'm pretty sure the wizard skill is the fastest of all the movement skills, after all, it's a teleport, that means the moments the globe spawns, he has it.
1. When i said random i meant it to have 3-4 possible spawns locations, actually, blizzard is probably working on this one, having just one at the center of the map is so bad i'm not even going to start talking about it. You see, i'm hoping there will be a whole bunch of arenas, not just the one we saw at blizzcon.
2. A complete team heal in just 2 seconds is imbalanced, that's all there is to it. I'd rather deal with a noob teammate with full health, than 4 enemiess with 100% hp after i just nuked the crap out of then.