Hi, I'm the RealVonDoom! You may remember me from such threads as "Number of skills capped?" and "Attribute point assignment."
Alright, enough with the Troy McClure impersonation. The Talisman is gone. I have been a fierce opponent of customization reduction since day 1 (though I only recently started a forum account). You know, for all this talk about huge customization potential that the Dev team keep spouting, I have noticed a fair amount of systems leaning the opposite way. I distinctly remember "customization" being a buzzword bandied about heavily during BlizzCon panels (over 96 billion character builds anyone?).
When I first heard about auto-stats, I was dismayed. There are pros and cons to the automating of attributes, but one thing is certain - it limits customization. This fact cannot be argued against. It may indeed prove to be a better system, but it definitively limits customization.
Oh well, right? We can compensate for that with Traits and the Talisman. Traits are sweet. There will likely be plenty of tension on where we spend our points (a good thing), and it gives us the opportunity to boost attributes if we so choose.
The Talisman is where it gets juicy though. A fully dedicated attribute modifier system. Say I want to boost Critical Rating, or Spell Power, or HP, but I could not spare enough Trait points to do that. Here's where I do that! Yey!
But alas, the Talisman has been killed. From what Bashiok says in the post, the removal of the Talisman was basically because it was "pretty boring," and "requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats."
I can't believe this. Sure, the Talisman might not be as exciting to a 3rd grader as runes that give all sorts of pretty lights and damage and bonuses to your spells. But it had a unique purpose. It allowed for characters to be diverse.
Blizzard keeps on dumbing this game down, as if they are designing it for the aforementioned 3rd grader. They have to realize that there are also hardcore fans out there as well, and they keep chipping away at Diablo mechanics that we hold dear.
If someone finds the Talisman boring, then they don't have to freaking use it. I would bet that a first time Action RPG player (Blizzard's seemingly target audience) would find the Blacksmith Artisan "pretty boring" when playing a Wizard, but that doesn't mean that Wizards should not get a Blacksmith... or does it Blizzard? I find the Monk to be boring, should I not get to roll Monks, or play with them online?
/rant
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - "How are the tests on feature XXX going?"
D3 Dev - "Well, our test chimpanzee was not able to understand feature XXX, but he is not a smart chimp."
Jay W - "WHAT?! Have it incinerated! Them simplify, no, REMOVE feature XXX!"
Players - "Wow that was close! I could not understand XXX feature, as I am legally retarded/in the Diablo 3 target audience!"
Honestly, If it was boring and not very useful like he said, I agree take it out and revamp it. He never said it was off the table, but that it went back to the drawing board so to speak. They are just revamping it nothing more he said it probably wont make it to INITIAL release so theres a chance it will come back later in a patch.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
I think Blizzard's cut list goes according to something like this tree of importance.
Game play - Accessibility - Replayability - Customization
While "customization", has indeed been a buzz word, that isn't to say it trumps Blizzard's core attributes as they've held to all their games, it's done when it's done. To Blizzard, the Talisman is not done. Blizzard holds every aspect of their games to a huge standard, far above just playable. I 100% agree with them that the Talisman was lack luster, and needs revision.
As Bash said, it'll likely be back in a much better form later on, when it reaches the Bliz standard of fun.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I would describe myself as a hardcore fan (though without some level of disgust for the term), and I think it's a good change.
It's very easy to judge a feature based on hypotheticals and incomplete information, but the fact is that is something is not working when it's tested then it doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter what you think it SHOULD do, it didn't do what they wanted, and it needed to be fixed or cut. They're cutting it for now and working on it for later.
As it is there is still an enormous amount of customization through your skills/traits/gear/runes. Diablo 3 will easily outdo customization in Diablo 2 by a thousand times. This is largely because low level skills simply weren't effective in the late-game, so you had only a handful of skill options for most characters. Because of this, pretty much everyone built their stats the same way, nullifying the effect of being able to choose where to spend points.
With all the skills scaling into the late game, now there is that much more reason to diversify your build. The Talisman being gone (or point spending being gone, if that's your cup of tea), is one less tool for customization, but all the other tools are better now, and now you actually have a reason to customize.
Leave the Talisman behind, get the game finished, and then come back to it and patch it in with even better features than it previously would have had.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Shows that they are feeling the pressure to get the game released already, if they are not bothering to try to rework it and instead simply take it out. The "maybe in the future.." added in is meaningless.
To Blizzard, the Talisman is not done. Blizzard holds every aspect of their games to a huge standard, far above just playable.
Yeah, especially when they simplify all the talent systems in WoW into so few talents that you can put them everywhere and be fine.
Blizzard doesn't always take out features to improve them. Sometimes they take out features because they're lazy.
I really don't think they're cutting the corners with this game. There's a reason as to why it's been under development the last decade.
And as for the talisman, the post was pretty straight forward, they cut it because it's not really contributing to the game as much as it could be doing, so rather then implementing a job half-done, they're choosing to delay it till they feel it's ready. Which in my opinion is a good thing.
Wushy
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, 1923
"requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats"
Maybe he is on to something after all. Perhaps items should be removed from the game. After all, items are yet another type of item. Also, clicking on them, let alone managing them, is far too complicated a task to expect the target audience to carry out.
I would wager that player stats are on the chopping block as well, as to identify them, you need to posses the ability to read (ie: not in Diablo 3 target audience). Maybe instead of Attack, Defense, Willpower, etc, they could just use pictures of a sword, a shield, etc.
Wait, different pictures are complicated. Just use a big happy face to indicate player stats, and instead of using complex numbers, the happy face smile just gets bigger and bigger the more it increases.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - "How are the tests on feature XXX going?"
D3 Dev - "Well, our test chimpanzee was not able to understand feature XXX, but he is not a smart chimp."
Jay W - "WHAT?! Have it incinerated! Them simplify, no, REMOVE feature XXX!"
Players - "Wow that was close! I could not understand XXX feature, as I am legally retarded/in the Diablo 3 target audience!"
To Blizzard, the Talisman is not done. Blizzard holds every aspect of their games to a huge standard, far above just playable.
Yeah, especially when they simplify all the talent systems in WoW into so few talents that you can put them everywhere and be fine.Blizzard doesn't always take out features to improve them. Sometimes they take out features because they're lazy.
If you read through the Blue posts about the development they've put into it over the past few years I'd say this is an example of anything but laziness..
@TheRealVonDoom, I agree Bash was off in his post, some things didn't make great sense. I'm still not sure if charms are out of not, the post can be taken as they are, but yet there is no clarification.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
The only thing I'm afraid of is charms in my inventory, i do not like my charms in my inventory... Charm or inventory space for new items! Why must i choose!!!
Shows that they are feeling the pressure to get the game released already, if they are not bothering to try to rework it and instead simply take it out. The "maybe in the future.." added in is meaningless.
They're going to release a massive number of content patches, and at least one or two expansions. Why would they completely scrap an idea they think is good when they can keep developing and release it later when they make it work?
That would be madness.
As for the rest of you, we've seen all the ways you can customize your character all day every day for three years. Manually placing stat points is one small and mostly bad feature for customization, replaced by several far better methods. I find it ridiculous that after how rigid point placement was in Diablo 2 that people still consider it a method of customization at all.
All I can think of is some kid getting his cupcake taken away and replaced with a huge German chocolate cake, then the kid crying and complaining about it on forums because damnit, his new cake was supposed to be EXACTLY Diablo 2. To hell with mommy if she won't release the same game over and over with better graphics and...
I may have lost my train of thought somewhere in there.
The only thing I'm afraid of is charms in my inventory, i do not like my charms in my inventory... Charm or inventory space for new items! Why must i choose!!!
Yeah I'm still kinda lost on if charms are out as well.. I'm leaning towards no, but some of the Blue posts are a bit misleading.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I think the real reason they took it out was because they felt it was incomplete. They want to get the game out earlier rather than spending a few more months trying to get the talisman system up to their standards. What I think they should have done was just left the "basic" talisman in and make it more interesting in the expansion. I don't really mind either way though, we'll get it eventually.
They wanted charms to do something interesting but in the end it was effecting balance, so they became less and less until they were just +stats. So instead of backtracking through all that to fix it, they decided to move ahead and keep talismans and charms for future patches/expansions. At least that's what I got from it, and that's fine with me.
I'd prefer if they'd leave it out of initial release and tweaked it for later, but there's many other things a charm could do in Diablo 2 that would be nice for customization in Diablo 3. For instance, most charms used in the last game for Diablo 2 didn't really have hard stat points on them, leading to my point, they had damage, skill points, and unique abilities that otherwise couldn't normally be picked up on a certain character. On top of that, they could use talismans to affect skills in another minor ways that runes won't be affecting them, (Extra skill levels, lowered cooldowns, and to an extent unless they're dodging it completely, faster cast rate.)
Someone also mentioned that they could add an effect to them kind of like trinkets did in World of Warcraft, which definitely could add to their uniqueness, and give people more options to boost their character, even if it only works for a limited time.
I can see them coming back into play, if not by release, GUARANTEED by the first Expansion.
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Alright, enough with the Troy McClure impersonation. The Talisman is gone. I have been a fierce opponent of customization reduction since day 1 (though I only recently started a forum account). You know, for all this talk about huge customization potential that the Dev team keep spouting, I have noticed a fair amount of systems leaning the opposite way. I distinctly remember "customization" being a buzzword bandied about heavily during BlizzCon panels (over 96 billion character builds anyone?).
When I first heard about auto-stats, I was dismayed. There are pros and cons to the automating of attributes, but one thing is certain - it limits customization. This fact cannot be argued against. It may indeed prove to be a better system, but it definitively limits customization.
Oh well, right? We can compensate for that with Traits and the Talisman. Traits are sweet. There will likely be plenty of tension on where we spend our points (a good thing), and it gives us the opportunity to boost attributes if we so choose.
The Talisman is where it gets juicy though. A fully dedicated attribute modifier system. Say I want to boost Critical Rating, or Spell Power, or HP, but I could not spare enough Trait points to do that. Here's where I do that! Yey!
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/177442/status-of-company-wide-testing/
But alas, the Talisman has been killed. From what Bashiok says in the post, the removal of the Talisman was basically because it was "pretty boring," and "requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats."
I can't believe this. Sure, the Talisman might not be as exciting to a 3rd grader as runes that give all sorts of pretty lights and damage and bonuses to your spells. But it had a unique purpose. It allowed for characters to be diverse.
Blizzard keeps on dumbing this game down, as if they are designing it for the aforementioned 3rd grader. They have to realize that there are also hardcore fans out there as well, and they keep chipping away at Diablo mechanics that we hold dear.
If someone finds the Talisman boring, then they don't have to freaking use it. I would bet that a first time Action RPG player (Blizzard's seemingly target audience) would find the Blacksmith Artisan "pretty boring" when playing a Wizard, but that doesn't mean that Wizards should not get a Blacksmith... or does it Blizzard? I find the Monk to be boring, should I not get to roll Monks, or play with them online?
/rant
D3 Dev - "Well, our test chimpanzee was not able to understand feature XXX, but he is not a smart chimp."
Jay W - "WHAT?! Have it incinerated! Them simplify, no, REMOVE feature XXX!"
Players - "Wow that was close! I could not understand XXX feature, as I am legally retarded/in the Diablo 3 target audience!"
Game play - Accessibility - Replayability - Customization
While "customization", has indeed been a buzz word, that isn't to say it trumps Blizzard's core attributes as they've held to all their games, it's done when it's done. To Blizzard, the Talisman is not done. Blizzard holds every aspect of their games to a huge standard, far above just playable. I 100% agree with them that the Talisman was lack luster, and needs revision.
As Bash said, it'll likely be back in a much better form later on, when it reaches the Bliz standard of fun.
It's very easy to judge a feature based on hypotheticals and incomplete information, but the fact is that is something is not working when it's tested then it doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter what you think it SHOULD do, it didn't do what they wanted, and it needed to be fixed or cut. They're cutting it for now and working on it for later.
As it is there is still an enormous amount of customization through your skills/traits/gear/runes. Diablo 3 will easily outdo customization in Diablo 2 by a thousand times. This is largely because low level skills simply weren't effective in the late-game, so you had only a handful of skill options for most characters. Because of this, pretty much everyone built their stats the same way, nullifying the effect of being able to choose where to spend points.
With all the skills scaling into the late game, now there is that much more reason to diversify your build. The Talisman being gone (or point spending being gone, if that's your cup of tea), is one less tool for customization, but all the other tools are better now, and now you actually have a reason to customize.
I approve.
Muhahahahahaaa
Blizzard doesn't always take out features to improve them. Sometimes they take out features because they're lazy.
I really don't think they're cutting the corners with this game. There's a reason as to why it's been under development the last decade.
And as for the talisman, the post was pretty straight forward, they cut it because it's not really contributing to the game as much as it could be doing, so rather then implementing a job half-done, they're choosing to delay it till they feel it's ready. Which in my opinion is a good thing.
Wushy
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
Robert Frost, 1923
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/177442/status-of-company-wide-testing/
"requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats"
Maybe he is on to something after all. Perhaps items should be removed from the game. After all, items are yet another type of item. Also, clicking on them, let alone managing them, is far too complicated a task to expect the target audience to carry out.
I would wager that player stats are on the chopping block as well, as to identify them, you need to posses the ability to read (ie: not in Diablo 3 target audience). Maybe instead of Attack, Defense, Willpower, etc, they could just use pictures of a sword, a shield, etc.
Wait, different pictures are complicated. Just use a big happy face to indicate player stats, and instead of using complex numbers, the happy face smile just gets bigger and bigger the more it increases.
D3 Dev - "Well, our test chimpanzee was not able to understand feature XXX, but he is not a smart chimp."
Jay W - "WHAT?! Have it incinerated! Them simplify, no, REMOVE feature XXX!"
Players - "Wow that was close! I could not understand XXX feature, as I am legally retarded/in the Diablo 3 target audience!"
If you read through the Blue posts about the development they've put into it over the past few years I'd say this is an example of anything but laziness..
@TheRealVonDoom, I agree Bash was off in his post, some things didn't make great sense. I'm still not sure if charms are out of not, the post can be taken as they are, but yet there is no clarification.
They're going to release a massive number of content patches, and at least one or two expansions. Why would they completely scrap an idea they think is good when they can keep developing and release it later when they make it work?
That would be madness.
As for the rest of you, we've seen all the ways you can customize your character all day every day for three years. Manually placing stat points is one small and mostly bad feature for customization, replaced by several far better methods. I find it ridiculous that after how rigid point placement was in Diablo 2 that people still consider it a method of customization at all.
All I can think of is some kid getting his cupcake taken away and replaced with a huge German chocolate cake, then the kid crying and complaining about it on forums because damnit, his new cake was supposed to be EXACTLY Diablo 2. To hell with mommy if she won't release the same game over and over with better graphics and...
I may have lost my train of thought somewhere in there.
Yeah I'm still kinda lost on if charms are out as well.. I'm leaning towards no, but some of the Blue posts are a bit misleading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/22158-things-we-know-about-diablo-iii-updated/
That (stickied) thread explains the new stat system pretty well.
I'd prefer if they'd leave it out of initial release and tweaked it for later, but there's many other things a charm could do in Diablo 2 that would be nice for customization in Diablo 3. For instance, most charms used in the last game for Diablo 2 didn't really have hard stat points on them, leading to my point, they had damage, skill points, and unique abilities that otherwise couldn't normally be picked up on a certain character. On top of that, they could use talismans to affect skills in another minor ways that runes won't be affecting them, (Extra skill levels, lowered cooldowns, and to an extent unless they're dodging it completely, faster cast rate.)
Someone also mentioned that they could add an effect to them kind of like trinkets did in World of Warcraft, which definitely could add to their uniqueness, and give people more options to boost their character, even if it only works for a limited time.
I can see them coming back into play, if not by release, GUARANTEED by the first Expansion.