The way BoE eliminates it from the economy is this. Once you equip it you can no longer trade it to anyone else so basically that other person who wants it has to find A, a person who has found it and never equipped it or B, find it themselves or craft it depending on what item. With a low drop rate this will mean its much harder to get unless you farm them and never equip them which is quite possible but with a very low drop rate it makes this a much more harder task. Technically BoE eliminates it from the economy because once equipped you are the sole person who can use that specific BoE item.
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
Hokay, so first, saying blizz has a bunch of econ experts, and they're gonna whip the game into shape is kinda stupid. These so called experts run many sectors of the the real world economy, and look where it got us.
rofl, but...they're experts dude, w/e they say is gospel, don't question it!
Basically, I think they would rather have people play the game to get better items to the play the game, then trade to get better items. I for one am happy about that. If you're not, well, I'm sorry.
Alright here's the break down of the game for a lot of players...
pvm = easy and repetitive
pk/pvp = much more challenging and random
trading = tool to cut down on time you must spend pvm'ing to get good at pvp'ing
So yeah...cutting out the means to speed through the easy repetitive part of the game and get to the challenging, random portion of the game just doesn't sound like a good idea. You still have to grind to get there, just not nearly as much if you know what your doing.
Besides, you say you would rather have people get better items by playing the game? Does trading and pvp'ing not qualify as playing? If so, it seems like you've only ever experienced 1/3 of the game.
And as people keep finding them (and probably duping them), there is just more and more and more. With BoE, you can't give away your old items, so that means you have to absorb MORE items. That's how it removes items from the economy.
And my exact reason why BoE is nothing more then an annoying feature that kills trading. How is BoE going to fix the problem of people finding more and more and more and more? Its not. If I have one of an item bound to me...I HAVE NO REASON TO BIND A SECOND. If its bind on equip only...guess what, they're gonna be horded, muled, and transferred just like stuff on D2 is.
All BoE accomplishes is punishing the segment of players, who in D2 got their main enjoyment out of pvp or tinkering with builds. Suddenly your net loss for a failed character turns from a few hours of leveling/trading to many, many hours of pvm grind. What a raw deal that is once you've thoroughly raped the pvm aspect of the game inside out and its so easy for you its a bore.
Woohoo someone understands! D2 was an awesome game that has a lot of huge differences in comparison to a lot of other online rpg type games, so why mainstream D3 with the same lame systems of binding gear and a trash currency with no use other then sinks and hording, when D2 did just fine with "currencies" basically being small crafting items you could store a lot of.(runes/gems)
Because the system brings with it a lot of other problems that Blizzard don't want to carry over to D3. The hardcore D2 trader is a niche player, who is severely outnumbered by the so-called "casual" player who would much rather prefer a trading system. I don't have any numbers on this, but I think it's a safe bet to assume.
Trading items for items is going to be crippled with binding gear and a currency rather then barter based economy. This is why I gripe about those systems, its one of the D2 staples that sets it aside from the masses, why jack it up and mainstream it so its just another WoW clone economy?
Which entirely depends on how many items are actually BoE. Trade involving those will go down true, but all items that are not BoE will probably greatly benefit from the new gold-based currency.
Also, you seem to have half grasped how BoE removes items from the economy. Yes, they're not destroyed, but they do not last forever. Where as before, when you changed characters, you could just trade gear out with someone else. In this case, no items where lost. And as people keep finding them (and probably duping them), there is just more and more and more. With BoE, you can't give away your old items, so that means you have to absorb MORE items. That's how it removes items from the economy. And as you can only play one char at a time, the stuff on your old barb may as well have been destroyed, as it's not doing anyone any good.
They do last forever. The problem that nickman highlights, is that while BoE removes an item from the market, it also removes a potential buyer as well. This is a temporary fix, which will in fact affect the economy positively over the short term. Depending on drop rates and if it will be hard to hack/bot, it may actually be pretty close to a permament fix. So make no mistake, BoE will work as intended to begin with. But eventually no matter what the droprate is, you will have removed almost all potential buyers, while the items still drops in equal amount. The market will flood, not because an abundance of items, but because of a lack of buyers. At that point, creating a new character and outfitting him will be pretty cheap.
It is very important to note however that would hold true even without a BoE system. Eventually, the economy is flooded with Enigmas. The key point nickman makes is that, while that was true, you could still aim to get an Enigma that was just a little bit better (775 defense instead of just 750) than the one you currently owned, since the items were not BoE, you could still trade them and increase your stats. With BoE, this ability disappears, because you cannot trade the item you already have.
There are a few ways around this:
Hardcore: Hardcore characters die, and so provide a real sink of completely removing items from the game through their destruction, something BoE does not.
Ladder Resets: This was the solution in D2. By forcing everyone to make new characters and start from scratch, a huge sink was artificially created. Blizzard has stated however that the ladder system will not be making a return.
Continuous character creation: If people continue to make new characters, they will alleviate the inherent problem of BoE by introducing new buyers into the market. As much as I like the respec option, the ability to respec lowers the incentive to create new characters. People will still do it, but as much as had respeccing not been available.
And the fourth possibility, the one used by all MMO's, is to introduce new tiers of better items, thereby rendering the old ones obsolete. Thus it no longer matters whether there's an abundance of items or not, because the demand for the item has disappeared. In D3's case, this can probably only happen with new expansions being released.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head that have been used.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Well, of course money accumulates. That is not what gold sinks are trying to prevent. Gold sinks are there to make use of the money and give it a value. In Diablo 2 there was no use for gold, which made it worthless.
Actually, the reason gold was a joke in d2 was because you could just trade for an item worth more gold then you could carry. If gambling wasn't so slow, you could carry infinite gold, and you didn't lose so much when you died, you would see people doing mass gold trades all the time.
If repair costs weren't the only gold sink in d2, and gold was still worthless, do you think adding 10 more gold sinks would make gold in the game more fun or more annoying? This is the direction people seem to think is smart for d3 to move in, GOLDS USELESS LETS GIVE IT SINKS!
Don't be so hasty to jump into conclusions; nothing says that we don't barter any longer (they've released no details on the trading system). What they might do is just an easy way to barter (like, a large trading "chat" without the need to make games like "WTB SoJ" or resorting to D2jsp.
Binding end game gear + currency economy = same set up Dungeons and Dragons Online has. Go play it and tell me how much bartering goes on. Once you get your end game gear, you no longer have a use for money, so you just horde massive amounts of it. If you happen to make an alt or want to buy one of the harder to get non-binding items, you just go dump some money in the auction house because its faster then bartering. The economy still gets flooded with items, and the entire flow of it amounts to noobs buying stuff from more experienced players. Once your high level you can't really trade even if you want to because everything binds. Thats a pretty failed game economy in my opinion. At least D2 when you got to high level and had uber stuff there was still more economy type things you could do rather then just sell to noobs and horde currency.
Which entirely depends on how many items are actually BoE. Trade involving those will go down true, but all items that are not BoE will probably greatly benefit from the new gold-based currency.
Bartering gets neutered while selling the same junk back and forth for a useless currency item they have to add a bunch of sinks in for to try to give it some value becomes the norm. Good job blizzard.
This just seems like a thread of "I liked the D2 economy" v. "I think it can be improved" arguing. I belong in the latter group - and so does Blizz. That's about the end of discussion.
v. the group of Let's mainstream D3 so its more like every other online rpg. That's the group you belong in.
D2's the best(and only) online rpg I've ever played where bartering was the main economic force. If you were in the "I think it can be improved" group, you would fully support an improvement upon the barter system, not neutering it so we can have a WoW like auction house and gold.
Like has been mentioned previously, why not start where D2 lacked, and try to add some aspects into D3 so people can just find trades easier in game and don't have to go to a D2jsp type site?
Because the system brings with it a lot of other problems that Blizzard don't want to carry over to D3. The hardcore D2 trader is a niche player, who is severely outnumbered by the so-called "casual" player who would much rather prefer a trading system. I don't have any numbers on this, but I think it's a safe bet to assume.
The casual players actually benefitted the most from the D2 trade system. Haven't you ever hopped in one of those games named "OVERPAY 4 XXX" or "ALL 4 PUL" and some rich dude traded you like 10x what your item was worth just because he wanted it fast? Well this assumes your not mixing up casual and clueless. If your clueless what everything is worth I can see how you would hate bartering, but if you want no learning curve at all, don't play an rpg?
I think the vast majority of what you'd consider "hardcore D2 traders" anyhow were pvp players. I know this forum is heavily biased towards pvm, but go check out d2jsp just to get a fresh view on the game. It has a lot more users then this forum and its pretty obvious they care a lot more about pvp over there then pvm. But even still, why dumb the game down just to better suit those who don't want to put any effort into learning the system, especially when its as simple as just making a few buddies with a clue in game and asking them for advice before you do a trade? Pretty much anyone will give you a straight up answer on what something is worth unless your asking the guy your potentially trading, or one of his friends:P
You have to explain this part to me because that makes no sense at all. As soon as someone equips the item it is worth nothing to other players.
Ok, I find one item, I equip it, it binds to me, I can't trade it. Its now worthless to everyone but me. What about the next 10 of that same item I find that I'm not going to boe? What about everyone else that equips one and finds multiple. BoE would have about the same impact on the value of items as if everyone sold their first shako in d2 to charsi. There'd only be like 827598273958729375928375 instead of 827598273958729375828375.
In other words its life ends when you find a better item or decide to delete your character.
Well only end game gear is going to bind. Why on earth would anyone delete a character whom they leveled up to end game status when their is auto statting and respecs? I could see deleting an end game character and losing some boe gear because you recognize you could make a more uber version of that character, but when its impossible to mess your character up why would you ever delete?
Off topic here but man, wanna take a guess why I think auto statting and respecs are lame as well?
That would basically guarantee a working and stable end-game economy for an infinite period of time.
EPIC LAZY MANEUVER!!
Ok, I find one item, I equip it, it binds to me, I can't trade it. Its now worthless to everyone but me. What about the next 10 of that same item I find that I'm not going to boe? What about everyone else that equips one and finds multiple. BoE would have about the same impact on the value of items as if everyone sold their first shako in d2 to charsi. There'd only be like 827598273958729375928375 instead of 827598273958729375828375.
I don't think Blizzard is going to fuck up drop rates that badly. Problem solved.
As long as characters that need the item are created at the same pace as the item is found, then there won't be any problems. (I admit that there will still be some problems and fluctuation, human trade behavior is not 100% predictable, but nothing too major)
Drop rates are pretty irrelevant. All they will effect is if it takes 3 months for the game to saturate, 6 months, or a year. If they make it so things are so rare it takes 10 years for the game to saturate nobodies gonna put that much time into grinding, so you'll either just end up with people quitting or botting:P
Any way they go here boe isnt going to stop market saturation.
Well, you don't have to delete it, the item is gone anyway.
If its gone, why would it be sitting in my characters inventory? Its bind on equip, not delete on equip. Sure I can't trade it to you, but I'm still not going to trade you for yours, so what did it really accomplish?
Hmm... Auto stats ruins those odd builds that we all love, and respecs somewhat removes the need to make new characters? Maybe xD
Ughh let me try to explain it another way why it fails.
Let's say theres 1 million characters. There is no boe. Uber helmet drops at an average rate of 500k a month. It will take 2 months before there is enough for everyone, and after that the market just floods more and more.
Now, let's say under those same circumstances, the Uber helmet is boe. It takes...omg 2 months before there is enough for everyone. Just for the sake of making boe look good let's assume boe items have mod ranges on them like most d2 items had, so everyone goes through 3 of them on average before they get one that is high enough they don't really care much to look for better. It takes 6 months instead of 2 to flood the market...big deal.
BTW if you think the d2 market was truly flooded I'd like to see your character(s) with all perfect modded versions of the best gear, charms and all for that specific set up. If its flooded clearly anyone could acquire these items. The market flooded with crap versions of the best items, not with the best items. I'd rather just have the freedom to experiment with gear I find for multiple potential builds rather then acting like a feature that will give a slight extension at best to market stability is some kind of uber economy fix.
Also as far as your binding gear in wow goes, let's not forget how often new best gear is patched into the game. Clearly now...this couldn't possible have had any impact...it was boe all the way right?
Ughh let me try to explain it another way why it fails.
Let's say theres 1 million characters. There is no boe. Uber helmet drops at an average rate of 500k a month. It will take 2 months before there is enough for everyone, and after that the market just floods more and more.
Now, let's say under those same circumstances, the Uber helmet is boe. It takes...omg 2 months before there is enough for everyone. Just for the sake of making boe look good let's assume boe items have mod ranges on them like most d2 items had, so everyone goes through 3 of them on average before they get one that is high enough they don't really care much to look for better. It takes 6 months instead of 2 to flood the market...big deal.
But in those 6 months won't more people start playing, or people at least make new characters that will need those items?
As long as the BOE items don't drop at a rate faster than the rate of new characters being created that need those items then over saturation wont be a problem.
And, lets not forget, the rates will probably be WAY less than the 500k a month for 1 million players. So, even if it is "only" twice as long to the flooded state, with proper drop rates that could be the difference between 2 years and 4 years.
And, this idea only examines drops vs demand created by existing characters who needed it and new characters who need it. Once you get to the 1+ year range, you're going to get people who delete characters from prolonged inactivity.
Also, not mentioned, are the multiple characters that one person will have that might want the same item. With the old way, the demand is limited to individual accounts, or maybe more than one on an account that might have two active characters that use the same item. With BoE, it's every single character that EVER wants to use that item.
But in those 6 months won't more people start playing, or people at least make new characters that will need those items?
The number of players are irrelevant. If twice as many people play, twice as many of a said item will be found.
And, lets not forget, the rates will probably be WAY less than the 500k a month for 1 million players. So, even if it is "only" twice as long to the flooded state, with proper drop rates that could be the difference between 2 years and 4 years.
Haha I was figuring it taking 2 months of grinding for the average player to have a good chance of acquiring a specific item was pretty rare. Sure it could take more or less depending no your luck and trading skills, or lack thereof, but what exactly are "proper drop rates." Spend months trying to acquire a specific item, try it out on a single character, then you can't ever toy around with it anymore beyond that, that's gonna be real appealing to people who don't have 6 hours a day to waste farming a game.
And, this idea only examines drops vs demand created by existing characters who needed it and new characters who need it. Once you get to the 1+ year range, you're going to get people who delete characters from prolonged inactivity.
Uh, totally irrelevant to binding. If they didn't bind and a character auto deletes or whatever from inactivity, the gear would poof just the same.
Also, not mentioned, are the multiple characters that one person will have that might want the same item. With the old way, the demand is limited to individual accounts, or maybe more than one on an account that might have two active characters that use the same item. With BoE, it's every single character that EVER wants to use that item.
Ughh, your saying this like its a good thing or something. I thoroughly enjoyed tinkering with multiple builds and pvp'ing in D2 way more then pvm grinding. Sure pvm was fun for a while but it wasn't what kept me in the game for so long. I could spend a few months at the start of each ladder farming enough wealth to nicely gear 3-4 alts. I could then focus the rest of the ladder season on the build tinkering/pvp aspects of the game I found much more enjoyable.
Now, here you are, saying that a change that is going to punish that style of play, and force me to pvm grind more and more for each new idea I want to tinker with is somehow going to make the game more fun? If this was the case with D2 my fix would have been to either play the game for a year before I was bored senseless of it instead of 10, or to have played 3-4 characters a ladder instead of 50-100.
But hey, what do I know, I guess I'm the only one who always enjoyed hitting that point where I had little incentive to brainlessly farm anymore and could enjoy other aspects of the game that were more challenging and required some thought.
Is this your argument... "big deal" ?
Yup, and its a better one then pretending boe will keep a game economy fresh forever.
This is three times longer and makes a huge difference if you take into account how many new characters are created for that time. If Uber helmet drops at an average rate of 500k a month, new characters are created at an average rate of 167k a month and everyone goes through 3 Uber helmets on average before they get one that is high enough... the market won't get flooded at all.
Whatever the exact population of the game is, is irrelevant. The drop rate will rise and fall proportionally to the amount of active players.
P.S. Read the thread all over again. Maybe 5 or 6 guys there are arguing against your opinion about BoE mod being useless, but you just keep going. We all have freedom of speech and other people can not impose their views on you, but you must know when to stop arguing.
Its actually just because I haven't read a convincing argument yet.
Just tell me, if everyone sold the first shako(or 10) they found on d2, would the game never have become flooded with shakos? This is the lack of impact boe has on a long term economy...
I love how you just ignore all the valid points I've made and throw out more irrelevancy. Your end argument still amounts to that an item with a finite demand is never going to lose value in an infinite spawn system. At some point, the influx of new characters who level high enough to have a need for the end game binding gear is going to fall below the pace at which the gear is being found, at which point the flood begins.
What your doing is going from the D2 mentality of, man I can't wait to level this alt in 2 days and jump right into the end game/pvp action using the gear I already spent 6 months grinding for, and turning it into damn, do I really want to waste 6 months grinding this toons gear in the same fashion I just ground my last toons gear just so I can play end game/pvp? I'd rather see the Diablo franchise move forward by expanding upon elements that made the previous installment different from other games, rather then adding in the same generic mainstream elements that every other game uses. There's a hundred other free mmo's/rpg's that are more similar to WoW then Diablo, and I was hoping Blizzard was going to move Diablo further in the Diablo direction, rather then push it in the WoW direction...guess I was hoping for too much.
I don't understand why everyone thinks Diablo is like WoW, I'm sorry but WoW took half of its shit from Diablo so if anything WoW is a Diablo clone not the other way around. And even if they are taking stuff from WoW it isn't a bad thing WoW is a genuinely good game albeit one that takes allot of time effort and money to play through fully but a really good game. IT has good game mechanics the only real problem with it is the time it takes to get to lvl 40 honestly you have to waste a month to get there so yeah its time consuming and thats the biggest drawback other than that WoW has a nice economy a good auction house I think anyway, and Really BoE does take the item out of the economy, eventually there will be flooding no doubt about it but that is when players start decreasing instead of increasing. Blizzard isn't retarded they wont make the drop rate really high it'll be something low so that its hard to find and when you do find it you'll feel like you've achieved something. This plus millions of players will guarantee the market won't flood for a while. Although it definitely will just because they won't stop dropping the item. But BoE helps this because say you have player level 99 best uber gear all BoE he pvped and did end game stuff with that gear hes leaving the game, Another player lvl 98 has yet to reach 99 is working on it wants the uber gear and hasn't found any by mass boss killing, the other player is forced to find his own stuff rather than join the first guys drop game because the first guy won't be allowed to give him that gear this eliminates all those BoE items from the game and it makes it so that everyone has to actually work for their gear.
Sorry if I was unable to get my point across clearly, I don't know much about the economy of games, but from what I understand BoE will essentially kill the item from the Economy because it is worthless to every other person in the game once it has been equipped.
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This is the exact reason why I want to even stop lurking around here.
AW
Wilson: We have no “Soulbound” or bind-on-pickup, except for quest items. We do have bind-on-equip for the highest end items in the game. We targeted, roughly, any item above level 85. These we will do as bind-on-equip. The reason for this is that we want people to be able to trade them, but we also want to remove the high-end items from the economy. One of the greatest ways that you can do that is with bind-on-equip. What we don’t want is to have a situation where you find something on the ground like, “Oh, man. This would be a perfect weapon for my Monk. Oh, but I just picked it up and now it’s on the wrong character.” We don’t want that at all. Most of our focus on Diablo is as a trading game. So, if you take trading out of the item space, you ruin the core of the game. Finding a really great item that is not for you is still a great event because it means you have a bartering tool to get the item that you do want. We definitely want to make sure that that still exists.
Wilson: We have no “Soulbound” or bind-on-pickup, except for quest items. We do have bind-on-equip for the highest end items in the game. We targeted, roughly, any item above level 85. These we will do as bind-on-equip. The reason for this is that we want people to be able to trade them, but we also want to remove the high-end items from the economy. One of the greatest ways that you can do that is with bind-on-equip. What we don’t want is to have a situation where you find something on the ground like, “Oh, man. This would be a perfect weapon for my Monk. Oh, but I just picked it up and now it’s on the wrong character.” We don’t want that at all. Most of our focus on Diablo is as a trading game. So, if you take trading out of the item space, you ruin the core of the game. Finding a really great item that is not for you is still a great event because it means you have a bartering tool to get the item that you do want. We definitely want to make sure that that still exists.
The problem with selling accounts is that said accounts are attached to not only specific B.net accounts, but will probably be limited to one a game, just like SC2. In which case, to buy a high level barb, you'd probably be buying one of the following:
1) The best case scenario here, someone is tired of the game and sells you his account (but not the actual game for some reason)
2) Second best - you pay for someone's game AND account.
3) Worst - you pay for a stolen account.
Unless I'm totally off with how the accounts work in SC2, and that they will work similarly in D3, I just don't see how people will be able to reasonably sell accounts in any meaningful amounts (except the above scenarios).
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rofl, but...they're experts dude, w/e they say is gospel, don't question it!
Alright here's the break down of the game for a lot of players...
pvm = easy and repetitive
pk/pvp = much more challenging and random
trading = tool to cut down on time you must spend pvm'ing to get good at pvp'ing
So yeah...cutting out the means to speed through the easy repetitive part of the game and get to the challenging, random portion of the game just doesn't sound like a good idea. You still have to grind to get there, just not nearly as much if you know what your doing.
Besides, you say you would rather have people get better items by playing the game? Does trading and pvp'ing not qualify as playing? If so, it seems like you've only ever experienced 1/3 of the game.
And my exact reason why BoE is nothing more then an annoying feature that kills trading. How is BoE going to fix the problem of people finding more and more and more and more? Its not. If I have one of an item bound to me...I HAVE NO REASON TO BIND A SECOND. If its bind on equip only...guess what, they're gonna be horded, muled, and transferred just like stuff on D2 is.
All BoE accomplishes is punishing the segment of players, who in D2 got their main enjoyment out of pvp or tinkering with builds. Suddenly your net loss for a failed character turns from a few hours of leveling/trading to many, many hours of pvm grind. What a raw deal that is once you've thoroughly raped the pvm aspect of the game inside out and its so easy for you its a bore.
Which entirely depends on how many items are actually BoE. Trade involving those will go down true, but all items that are not BoE will probably greatly benefit from the new gold-based currency.
They do last forever. The problem that nickman highlights, is that while BoE removes an item from the market, it also removes a potential buyer as well. This is a temporary fix, which will in fact affect the economy positively over the short term. Depending on drop rates and if it will be hard to hack/bot, it may actually be pretty close to a permament fix. So make no mistake, BoE will work as intended to begin with. But eventually no matter what the droprate is, you will have removed almost all potential buyers, while the items still drops in equal amount. The market will flood, not because an abundance of items, but because of a lack of buyers. At that point, creating a new character and outfitting him will be pretty cheap.
It is very important to note however that would hold true even without a BoE system. Eventually, the economy is flooded with Enigmas. The key point nickman makes is that, while that was true, you could still aim to get an Enigma that was just a little bit better (775 defense instead of just 750) than the one you currently owned, since the items were not BoE, you could still trade them and increase your stats. With BoE, this ability disappears, because you cannot trade the item you already have.
There are a few ways around this:
Actually, the reason gold was a joke in d2 was because you could just trade for an item worth more gold then you could carry. If gambling wasn't so slow, you could carry infinite gold, and you didn't lose so much when you died, you would see people doing mass gold trades all the time.
If repair costs weren't the only gold sink in d2, and gold was still worthless, do you think adding 10 more gold sinks would make gold in the game more fun or more annoying? This is the direction people seem to think is smart for d3 to move in, GOLDS USELESS LETS GIVE IT SINKS!
Binding end game gear + currency economy = same set up Dungeons and Dragons Online has. Go play it and tell me how much bartering goes on. Once you get your end game gear, you no longer have a use for money, so you just horde massive amounts of it. If you happen to make an alt or want to buy one of the harder to get non-binding items, you just go dump some money in the auction house because its faster then bartering. The economy still gets flooded with items, and the entire flow of it amounts to noobs buying stuff from more experienced players. Once your high level you can't really trade even if you want to because everything binds. Thats a pretty failed game economy in my opinion. At least D2 when you got to high level and had uber stuff there was still more economy type things you could do rather then just sell to noobs and horde currency.
Bartering gets neutered while selling the same junk back and forth for a useless currency item they have to add a bunch of sinks in for to try to give it some value becomes the norm. Good job blizzard.
v. the group of Let's mainstream D3 so its more like every other online rpg. That's the group you belong in.
D2's the best(and only) online rpg I've ever played where bartering was the main economic force. If you were in the "I think it can be improved" group, you would fully support an improvement upon the barter system, not neutering it so we can have a WoW like auction house and gold.
Like has been mentioned previously, why not start where D2 lacked, and try to add some aspects into D3 so people can just find trades easier in game and don't have to go to a D2jsp type site?
The casual players actually benefitted the most from the D2 trade system. Haven't you ever hopped in one of those games named "OVERPAY 4 XXX" or "ALL 4 PUL" and some rich dude traded you like 10x what your item was worth just because he wanted it fast? Well this assumes your not mixing up casual and clueless. If your clueless what everything is worth I can see how you would hate bartering, but if you want no learning curve at all, don't play an rpg?
I think the vast majority of what you'd consider "hardcore D2 traders" anyhow were pvp players. I know this forum is heavily biased towards pvm, but go check out d2jsp just to get a fresh view on the game. It has a lot more users then this forum and its pretty obvious they care a lot more about pvp over there then pvm. But even still, why dumb the game down just to better suit those who don't want to put any effort into learning the system, especially when its as simple as just making a few buddies with a clue in game and asking them for advice before you do a trade? Pretty much anyone will give you a straight up answer on what something is worth unless your asking the guy your potentially trading, or one of his friends:P
Ok, I find one item, I equip it, it binds to me, I can't trade it. Its now worthless to everyone but me. What about the next 10 of that same item I find that I'm not going to boe? What about everyone else that equips one and finds multiple. BoE would have about the same impact on the value of items as if everyone sold their first shako in d2 to charsi. There'd only be like 827598273958729375928375 instead of 827598273958729375828375.
Well only end game gear is going to bind. Why on earth would anyone delete a character whom they leveled up to end game status when their is auto statting and respecs? I could see deleting an end game character and losing some boe gear because you recognize you could make a more uber version of that character, but when its impossible to mess your character up why would you ever delete?
Off topic here but man, wanna take a guess why I think auto statting and respecs are lame as well?
EPIC LAZY MANEUVER!!
Ok, I find one item, I equip it, it binds to me, I can't trade it. Its now worthless to everyone but me. What about the next 10 of that same item I find that I'm not going to boe? What about everyone else that equips one and finds multiple. BoE would have about the same impact on the value of items as if everyone sold their first shako in d2 to charsi. There'd only be like 827598273958729375928375 instead of 827598273958729375828375.
Drop rates are pretty irrelevant. All they will effect is if it takes 3 months for the game to saturate, 6 months, or a year. If they make it so things are so rare it takes 10 years for the game to saturate nobodies gonna put that much time into grinding, so you'll either just end up with people quitting or botting:P
Any way they go here boe isnt going to stop market saturation.
If its gone, why would it be sitting in my characters inventory? Its bind on equip, not delete on equip. Sure I can't trade it to you, but I'm still not going to trade you for yours, so what did it really accomplish?
Let's say theres 1 million characters. There is no boe. Uber helmet drops at an average rate of 500k a month. It will take 2 months before there is enough for everyone, and after that the market just floods more and more.
Now, let's say under those same circumstances, the Uber helmet is boe. It takes...omg 2 months before there is enough for everyone. Just for the sake of making boe look good let's assume boe items have mod ranges on them like most d2 items had, so everyone goes through 3 of them on average before they get one that is high enough they don't really care much to look for better. It takes 6 months instead of 2 to flood the market...big deal.
BTW if you think the d2 market was truly flooded I'd like to see your character(s) with all perfect modded versions of the best gear, charms and all for that specific set up. If its flooded clearly anyone could acquire these items. The market flooded with crap versions of the best items, not with the best items. I'd rather just have the freedom to experiment with gear I find for multiple potential builds rather then acting like a feature that will give a slight extension at best to market stability is some kind of uber economy fix.
Also as far as your binding gear in wow goes, let's not forget how often new best gear is patched into the game. Clearly now...this couldn't possible have had any impact...it was boe all the way right?
But in those 6 months won't more people start playing, or people at least make new characters that will need those items?
As long as the BOE items don't drop at a rate faster than the rate of new characters being created that need those items then over saturation wont be a problem.
And, this idea only examines drops vs demand created by existing characters who needed it and new characters who need it. Once you get to the 1+ year range, you're going to get people who delete characters from prolonged inactivity.
Also, not mentioned, are the multiple characters that one person will have that might want the same item. With the old way, the demand is limited to individual accounts, or maybe more than one on an account that might have two active characters that use the same item. With BoE, it's every single character that EVER wants to use that item.
The number of players are irrelevant. If twice as many people play, twice as many of a said item will be found.
Haha I was figuring it taking 2 months of grinding for the average player to have a good chance of acquiring a specific item was pretty rare. Sure it could take more or less depending no your luck and trading skills, or lack thereof, but what exactly are "proper drop rates." Spend months trying to acquire a specific item, try it out on a single character, then you can't ever toy around with it anymore beyond that, that's gonna be real appealing to people who don't have 6 hours a day to waste farming a game.
Uh, totally irrelevant to binding. If they didn't bind and a character auto deletes or whatever from inactivity, the gear would poof just the same.
Ughh, your saying this like its a good thing or something. I thoroughly enjoyed tinkering with multiple builds and pvp'ing in D2 way more then pvm grinding. Sure pvm was fun for a while but it wasn't what kept me in the game for so long. I could spend a few months at the start of each ladder farming enough wealth to nicely gear 3-4 alts. I could then focus the rest of the ladder season on the build tinkering/pvp aspects of the game I found much more enjoyable.
Now, here you are, saying that a change that is going to punish that style of play, and force me to pvm grind more and more for each new idea I want to tinker with is somehow going to make the game more fun? If this was the case with D2 my fix would have been to either play the game for a year before I was bored senseless of it instead of 10, or to have played 3-4 characters a ladder instead of 50-100.
But hey, what do I know, I guess I'm the only one who always enjoyed hitting that point where I had little incentive to brainlessly farm anymore and could enjoy other aspects of the game that were more challenging and required some thought.
Yup, and its a better one then pretending boe will keep a game economy fresh forever.
Whatever the exact population of the game is, is irrelevant. The drop rate will rise and fall proportionally to the amount of active players.
Its actually just because I haven't read a convincing argument yet.
Just tell me, if everyone sold the first shako(or 10) they found on d2, would the game never have become flooded with shakos? This is the lack of impact boe has on a long term economy...
What your doing is going from the D2 mentality of, man I can't wait to level this alt in 2 days and jump right into the end game/pvp action using the gear I already spent 6 months grinding for, and turning it into damn, do I really want to waste 6 months grinding this toons gear in the same fashion I just ground my last toons gear just so I can play end game/pvp? I'd rather see the Diablo franchise move forward by expanding upon elements that made the previous installment different from other games, rather then adding in the same generic mainstream elements that every other game uses. There's a hundred other free mmo's/rpg's that are more similar to WoW then Diablo, and I was hoping Blizzard was going to move Diablo further in the Diablo direction, rather then push it in the WoW direction...guess I was hoping for too much.
Sorry if I was unable to get my point across clearly, I don't know much about the economy of games, but from what I understand BoE will essentially kill the item from the Economy because it is worthless to every other person in the game once it has been equipped.
Except for quest items.
Jay-Wizzle quote yo.
AW
Wilson: We have no “Soulbound” or bind-on-pickup, except for quest items. We do have bind-on-equip for the highest end items in the game. We targeted, roughly, any item above level 85. These we will do as bind-on-equip. The reason for this is that we want people to be able to trade them, but we also want to remove the high-end items from the economy. One of the greatest ways that you can do that is with bind-on-equip. What we don’t want is to have a situation where you find something on the ground like, “Oh, man. This would be a perfect weapon for my Monk. Oh, but I just picked it up and now it’s on the wrong character.” We don’t want that at all. Most of our focus on Diablo is as a trading game. So, if you take trading out of the item space, you ruin the core of the game. Finding a really great item that is not for you is still a great event because it means you have a bartering tool to get the item that you do want. We definitely want to make sure that that still exists.
Read more: http://g4tv.com/games/pc/28197/diablo-iii/articles/68225/BlizzCon-2009-Diablo-III-Game-Director-Interview/#ixzz0yy5VvNZF
Quit lurkin bro and start readin
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS
Please read the highlighted sentence.
I would like to request you stop trolling/flaming every thread in dfans.
THANKS
Also, in reply to the OP. He said all the top end uber gear binds to your character, from what he said that sounds like Bind on Pickup.
I was saying that all the high end gear is going to be boe.
I will assume you knew I didnt honestly thing items like "short bow" were going to be BoE use some common sense.
1) The best case scenario here, someone is tired of the game and sells you his account (but not the actual game for some reason)
2) Second best - you pay for someone's game AND account.
3) Worst - you pay for a stolen account.
Unless I'm totally off with how the accounts work in SC2, and that they will work similarly in D3, I just don't see how people will be able to reasonably sell accounts in any meaningful amounts (except the above scenarios).