In one of his recent blue posts Bashiok mentioned that "MF, additional XP, additional gold, speed increase, etc. on items" was placed in the BlizzCon demo so that people would talk about them and discuss whether or not they should be included in Diablo 3 so... let's discuss them!
Essentially the argument is this: if there are "farming" stats on items then people will gear up with +MF, +XP, or +Gold items and spend hours farming various things. This is pretty much how it was done in Diablo 2 and Blizzard is wondering if that was a good system.
My opinion is that farming equipment is a good idea, but it has to be implemented better than in Diablo 2.
+MF Items:
The MF system in Diablo 2 was done pretty well. It was a challenge to find gear that you could MF with and still be an efficient killing machine. This is how it should be done in Diablo 3!
+Gold Items:
The main problem with +Gold items was that in Diablo 2 gold served almost no purpose in the game. It poured out of monsters like a flood and there was nothing to spend it on. If there were good reasons to collect gold in Diablo 3 then I think +Gold items would be a great idea.
+XP Items:
Probably the most controversial and hard to balance is +XP items. I think +XP items would be good as long as they make it harder to leech than in Diablo 2. Personally I think all XP should be based off of damage dealt. After all, every class in Diablo 3 is a DPS class so it's not like there'll be a healer who gets jipped. If you suck and/or you don't participate, you get less XP. Kind of like it would be a challenge to find MF gear where you're still effective, if you can find +XP gear and still deal lots of DPS then more power to you! However, if XP can't be based on how much damage you do then you'll just have a ton of people decked out in +XP gear leeching on the sidelines. If that's the case then they just shouldn't include those items at all.
The MF system in Diablo 2 was done pretty well. It was a challenge to find gear that you could MF with and still be an efficient killing machine. This is how it should be done in Diablo 3!
No fucking way. It sucks balls.
Most of the items that were usable all the way to hell 8ppl were extremely difficult to find, most of them at realms were found by bots or when it comes to runes.. duped.
Most people make a character thats only job is to look for items. Good quality items are worth to seek only on certain areas. (pit, tunnels, pindle, prime evils) People make 1 player games to run over and over these places just for items, they don't really care about leveling their characters and developing in that area + find nice items while doing it.
People sacrifice good gear in order to find gear easier with MF gear on. They find gear but they cant use them because it would drop their MF.
Imo D2 mf system is pretty flawed and boring. They must find better solution for D3 and I'm sure they will.
Even if they bring this up now, we have talked about it many times already.
+Gold is much dumber when Gold is valuable. Pretty much the same as MF. I just find these ridiculous. And +Exp is a definite no.
And don't bring that "damage = XP" crap. Work as a party and get the same XP for everyone. No reason for anything else that could differ between class.
MF was good but so flawed. People would just have games dedicated to running and finidng MF all by themselves getting godly gear they don't need trading it and then get their godly gear. I mean it's a good idea and all but how do you limit it enough that it increases the players magic find while making it an equal game for those who don't have MF items?. It is quite hard to balance this aspect in my opinion.
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akse, all those were problems created by excessive duping. If all the best items/runes in the game weren't duped like crazy it would be a lot harder to get those uber top-of-the-line items. It's plenty possible to get decent MF gear without being rich, while still being effective. It's really easy to find MF rings/ammys, throw Perfect Topaz's into some decent armor...
Everyone just has this mindset that you can't MF without perfect MF gear, and that's just not true. You can very easily get 400 MF on decent gear without spending a single HR. Blade of ali-baba, that's 200 or so right there and I found 2 of those in 2 days. I wasn't even MFing, I was just in Chaos runs.
What I'm getting at is that the MF system isn't messed up, Diablo 2's economy is messed up.
really, having to do a particular meteorb sorc, just for mfing, feels pretty sad.
Any big d2 player on bnet, when starting a new account will think about doing an MF SORC as it's first char. and that idea will probably carry over d3, so don't let it happen, gets boring.
and when you go farming and there is you, barb, and 7 mf sorcs? very sad.
also, running just to get to baal, meph or another, repeatedly, gets kinda boring, but there are times that there is no other way to get good gear, and i get bored easily. doesn't work very good with me.
maybe, MAYBE, they could bring some high yield end-game chapter, dunno. that is fun and challenging all the way up to boss.
wow players love so much their end-game... not saying that we need naxx dungeon or something like that, but the guys at blizz can certainly come up with some idea.
+gold you said it all, there is not much use in gold, and actually, mfing yields more gold than +gold.
+xp i don't agree without changing. and i think the way xp is handled in d2 is good. if you are not cool sharing your xp with someone just don't play with them.
Sure, if you make it related to level and dmg dealt, your will hit big time the "rushing" part of d2... but i think that's a great part of it. imagine in wow, you could choose, to go for it and get fast to the end-game. or just take your time and go level to level.
i played wow only for 6 months and hated it, but i guess there are some good ideas we can bring up to d3. as they used many ideas from diablo series in wow.
i have fun both ways, playing single player, by myself till hell, and being rushed, farming xp, and getting fast to end game.
i was also thinking, do +xp means you leech MORE from others, or it just means some more xp drops from heaven for you coz you use them.
coz if you leech MORE because of that, it's messed up, but if someone with or without +xp itens, get the same amount in a co-op game, but just get's it multiplied, than i think it's ok.
you are not "stealing anything MORE then you would"
What's wrong with having uniques or other items with MF? If no items were considered "the best" for certain purposes then you're severely limiting the number of valuable uniques. There should be plenty of MF items, both magic, rare, and unique. The problem isn't that there are "best" items for MFing in Diablo 2, the problem is that the economy is so top heavy that the only acceptible MF gear nowadays is the super-expensive runewords that are only a little better than the cheap uniques/set items.
I do agree that spamming MF games is a problem, but again it's just a mistake that was made in Diablo 2. First and foremost, teleporting has to go. It was bad enough that Sorceresses could traverse a map in a matter of seconds, but then enigmas came out and everyone could do it. On top of that you have a ton of waypoints, with one very close to each boss. These 2 factors combined results in people making a game, teleporting to a boss, killing it, and then making another game. It's gotten so familiar and refined that people do it in under a minute. You're right, that's no way to play the game.
How do we fix it in Diablo 3? NO TELEPORT PLZKTHX! That right there solves most of the problems with Diablo 2's farming atmosphere. Additionally, throw in a lot of obstacles in front of bosses to slow the player down, so that you can't open a game and kill a boss and get phat lewt in less than a minute. Last but not least, have a lot of minibosses throughout each act that drop pretty good items, that way you're rewarded for playing through entire sections rather than just skipping straight through to the boss.
Even if they bring this up now, we have talked about it many times already.
+Gold is much dumber when Gold is valuable. Pretty much the same as MF. I just find these ridiculous. And +Exp is a definite no.
And don't bring that "damage = XP" crap. Work as a party and get the same XP for everyone. No reason for anything else that could differ between class.
So you wold rather have some noob get a couple hits in and then have the rest of your party do the work and then all be rewarded fairly...i don't think so:mad:! Also, i would like to see gold have real value this time around as to be an effective trading source along with items or just good by itself.
I do agree that spamming MF games is a problem, but again it's just a mistake that was made in Diablo 2. First and foremost, teleporting has to go. It was bad enough that Sorceresses could traverse a map in a matter of seconds, but then enigmas came out and everyone could do it. On top of that you have a ton of waypoints, with one very close to each boss. These 2 factors combined results in people making a game, teleporting to a boss, killing it, and then making another game. It's gotten so familiar and refined that people do it in under a minute. You're right, that's no way to play the game.
How do we fix it in Diablo 3? NO TELEPORT PLZKTHX! That right there solves most of the problems with Diablo 2's farming atmosphere. Additionally, throw in a lot of obstacles in front of bosses to slow the player down, so that you can't open a game and kill a boss and get phat lewt in less than a minute. Last but not least, have a lot of minibosses throughout each act that drop pretty good items, that way you're rewarded for playing through entire sections rather than just skipping straight through to the boss.
right there a good idea.
or maybe, ok to teleport, but dunno, imagine that you can't teleport within CS, that would already slow it enough.
(but then tele would be kinda useless..)
minibosses would also be fun. make it so we enjoy walking to the boss, instead of crippling the game. the best way to solve something and make everyone happy.
Tele officially has a 9 second cooldown but more than 50% increase in how far you can travel. From 40 feet no cd to 100 feet 9 second cooldown so tele will start to diminish in usage but it will still be there
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Edit: I'd also like to add that I think that everyone in a party should get the same XP, no matter the distance. Could this lead to people sitting in camps, leeching? Sure.
Furthermore, lower-level characters should always get exponentially more experience compared to their higher-level party members, to further help narrow the issue of someone else getting ahead in XP and then snowballing from there.
No thanks this would lead to abuses. If the lower level player gets more exp everyone would team up with a high level friend who would demolish everything in seconds while the lowbie gets huge exp.
Imo if you solo, you should get full exp.. while you party with someone it gets reduced 1/4th and eventually if we have max 4 in party it would be half of the maximum exp. Why? Well you kill monsters 4 times faster than someone who plays alone, there must be some sort of compensation.
This kind of system was in use before LOD and we all saw that there was no 8 player zerg fest parties that cleared CS in 1 minute. There was 2-4 player parties and then people who played solo.
You don't actually kill 4x faster with 4 people. You can only walk so fast, and a lot of times you're killing nearly as fast as you walk, whether you have 1 or 4 people.
there should be a strong sense of a "power" in D3. You def. should not be able to MF by killing the same monsters over and over again, but rather super rare items have an even slimmer chance of appearing, such as 1 out of every 157,000 kills or something and not generate quickly as in D2. this would give you a strong sense of having a unique powerful hero and others will know it as well when they see your earnings!!
to me i think it would be kinds different for diablo to make luck similar to bethesda's luck system. its a stat point that doesn't really effect game play but its basically MF. it could be added to by gear ect.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]I find your lack of faithdisturbing.
MF is stupid. If you want to compete with everyone else to find good items, why do you have to create an entirely new character with a specific set of items to find good gear. I would much rather play with a character I enjoy and kill monsters I find fun rather then just doing boring runs with a class I do not enjoy or gear i waisted my money on.
MF was overplayed in D2. It showed up to much, and we were allowed to get way to much of it. There should be a pretty decent cap on it as well. MF is nice to have, but it should be a requirement, it should be a rarer stat that doesn't show up on a lot of items so it becomes a bonus but noth an stat to try and stack.
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There are no stupid questions, just a bunch of inquisitive idiots.
I would like to see MF implemented in a manner similar to that of D2, it was a valuable aspect of the game (in terms of adding to the fun). People complain that you could get to much MF in D2, however, it was a system of diminishing returns (800% wasn't much different than 400%). Therefore, arguing that getting enough MF to be affective decreased killing power or survivability to an unusable level only pertains to people that were silly about their choice of MF gear. A person has to be strategic in their gear choices, which adds to the fun of building and using a character. Building characters for specific purposes (MFing, damage, PvP, leveling, goldfind) also adds to the sense of variety in the game. If this is all integrated into each character in a systematic way then the variety in character type will be diminished. And capping these attributes is a horrible idea. For instance, if the cap for MF is 100% then EVERY character would have exactly 100% mf. They would all be the same. If all characters end up the same then what is the point of having the attribute in the first place?
Essentially the argument is this: if there are "farming" stats on items then people will gear up with +MF, +XP, or +Gold items and spend hours farming various things. This is pretty much how it was done in Diablo 2 and Blizzard is wondering if that was a good system.
My opinion is that farming equipment is a good idea, but it has to be implemented better than in Diablo 2.
+MF Items:
The MF system in Diablo 2 was done pretty well. It was a challenge to find gear that you could MF with and still be an efficient killing machine. This is how it should be done in Diablo 3!
+Gold Items:
The main problem with +Gold items was that in Diablo 2 gold served almost no purpose in the game. It poured out of monsters like a flood and there was nothing to spend it on. If there were good reasons to collect gold in Diablo 3 then I think +Gold items would be a great idea.
+XP Items:
Probably the most controversial and hard to balance is +XP items. I think +XP items would be good as long as they make it harder to leech than in Diablo 2. Personally I think all XP should be based off of damage dealt. After all, every class in Diablo 3 is a DPS class so it's not like there'll be a healer who gets jipped. If you suck and/or you don't participate, you get less XP. Kind of like it would be a challenge to find MF gear where you're still effective, if you can find +XP gear and still deal lots of DPS then more power to you! However, if XP can't be based on how much damage you do then you'll just have a ton of people decked out in +XP gear leeching on the sidelines. If that's the case then they just shouldn't include those items at all.
No fucking way. It sucks balls.
Most of the items that were usable all the way to hell 8ppl were extremely difficult to find, most of them at realms were found by bots or when it comes to runes.. duped.
Most people make a character thats only job is to look for items. Good quality items are worth to seek only on certain areas. (pit, tunnels, pindle, prime evils) People make 1 player games to run over and over these places just for items, they don't really care about leveling their characters and developing in that area + find nice items while doing it.
People sacrifice good gear in order to find gear easier with MF gear on. They find gear but they cant use them because it would drop their MF.
Imo D2 mf system is pretty flawed and boring. They must find better solution for D3 and I'm sure they will.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
+Gold is much dumber when Gold is valuable. Pretty much the same as MF. I just find these ridiculous. And +Exp is a definite no.
And don't bring that "damage = XP" crap. Work as a party and get the same XP for everyone. No reason for anything else that could differ between class.
Everyone just has this mindset that you can't MF without perfect MF gear, and that's just not true. You can very easily get 400 MF on decent gear without spending a single HR. Blade of ali-baba, that's 200 or so right there and I found 2 of those in 2 days. I wasn't even MFing, I was just in Chaos runs.
What I'm getting at is that the MF system isn't messed up, Diablo 2's economy is messed up.
really, having to do a particular meteorb sorc, just for mfing, feels pretty sad.
Any big d2 player on bnet, when starting a new account will think about doing an MF SORC as it's first char. and that idea will probably carry over d3, so don't let it happen, gets boring.
and when you go farming and there is you, barb, and 7 mf sorcs? very sad.
also, running just to get to baal, meph or another, repeatedly, gets kinda boring, but there are times that there is no other way to get good gear, and i get bored easily. doesn't work very good with me.
maybe, MAYBE, they could bring some high yield end-game chapter, dunno. that is fun and challenging all the way up to boss.
wow players love so much their end-game... not saying that we need naxx dungeon or something like that, but the guys at blizz can certainly come up with some idea.
+gold you said it all, there is not much use in gold, and actually, mfing yields more gold than +gold.
+xp i don't agree without changing. and i think the way xp is handled in d2 is good. if you are not cool sharing your xp with someone just don't play with them.
Sure, if you make it related to level and dmg dealt, your will hit big time the "rushing" part of d2... but i think that's a great part of it. imagine in wow, you could choose, to go for it and get fast to the end-game. or just take your time and go level to level.
i played wow only for 6 months and hated it, but i guess there are some good ideas we can bring up to d3. as they used many ideas from diablo series in wow.
i have fun both ways, playing single player, by myself till hell, and being rushed, farming xp, and getting fast to end game.
my 2 cents.
coz if you leech MORE because of that, it's messed up, but if someone with or without +xp itens, get the same amount in a co-op game, but just get's it multiplied, than i think it's ok.
you are not "stealing anything MORE then you would"
I do agree that spamming MF games is a problem, but again it's just a mistake that was made in Diablo 2. First and foremost, teleporting has to go. It was bad enough that Sorceresses could traverse a map in a matter of seconds, but then enigmas came out and everyone could do it. On top of that you have a ton of waypoints, with one very close to each boss. These 2 factors combined results in people making a game, teleporting to a boss, killing it, and then making another game. It's gotten so familiar and refined that people do it in under a minute. You're right, that's no way to play the game.
How do we fix it in Diablo 3? NO TELEPORT PLZKTHX! That right there solves most of the problems with Diablo 2's farming atmosphere. Additionally, throw in a lot of obstacles in front of bosses to slow the player down, so that you can't open a game and kill a boss and get phat lewt in less than a minute. Last but not least, have a lot of minibosses throughout each act that drop pretty good items, that way you're rewarded for playing through entire sections rather than just skipping straight through to the boss.
right there a good idea.
or maybe, ok to teleport, but dunno, imagine that you can't teleport within CS, that would already slow it enough.
(but then tele would be kinda useless..)
minibosses would also be fun. make it so we enjoy walking to the boss, instead of crippling the game. the best way to solve something and make everyone happy.
Imo if you solo, you should get full exp.. while you party with someone it gets reduced 1/4th and eventually if we have max 4 in party it would be half of the maximum exp. Why? Well you kill monsters 4 times faster than someone who plays alone, there must be some sort of compensation.
This kind of system was in use before LOD and we all saw that there was no 8 player zerg fest parties that cleared CS in 1 minute. There was 2-4 player parties and then people who played solo.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Building characters for specific purposes (MFing, damage, PvP, leveling, goldfind) also adds to the sense of variety in the game. If this is all integrated into each character in a systematic way then the variety in character type will be diminished.
And capping these attributes is a horrible idea. For instance, if the cap for MF is 100% then EVERY character would have exactly 100% mf. They would all be the same. If all characters end up the same then what is the point of having the attribute in the first place?
I never got the hang of the old system, and I only found skullders and shakos..