CRAP yea i missed it the first time around too. Darn that just urks my day up. I hope he was being very vague or was drunk and didnt know what he was saying or some other misfed information.
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The one who makes it doesn't make it for himself. The one who buys it doesn't buy it for himself. The one who needs it doesn't know it when he needs it.
@ Erebus: Erm, I didn't mean to sound oppressive or anything about it- everyone has a right to their own opinion, not that I'm claiming to know what you do or do not believe.
It's just that, along with most other things said, it's too vague. If it's in reference to what Bashiok was mentioning above (animations in relation to weapons), he's talking about how the animations for armor on characters will be mostly the same. That really does not say anything about the looks of the armor, it just tells us that armor will be behaving as should be expected- staying on our characters in correct positions.
That's what I think, anyway.
Even then, though, he left so much unsaid about armor with that meager sentence that he might as well not said anything about it at all.
I don't think you are being oppressive at all. I have full faith that the end product will be the best it can be. I have no reason to think otherwise given the already tremendous amount of positive things I've seen and read about in far more detail than what we are discussing right now.
However, in relation to the description Bashiok gave, as short as it was I think it's clearly stated that it doesn't effect the modeling costs the more armors there are. Perhaps it's simply an incorrect statement from Bashiok himself, however if in fact armor is displayed the same way as D2 it's because it's the best way to do it efficiently at this point. In terms of memory and polycounts it's inarguable that having the armors integrated into the models topology will make the load much less heavy on the engine, especially when you consider that they are trying to optimize the game for weaker systems and that the amount of armors in the game, if they each had an individual model would be a very large number. I was assuming, probably wishful thinking, that each armor would have a corresponding 3d model that was attached to a player character, but in the end that might not make sense. Both, because of the reasons I stated above, but also the fact that Diablo is not run solely on an online multiplayer basis and that the game has to be able to run smoothly on a home PC's hard-drive. All of these balancing issues are things developers have to juggle everyday and I don't take that lightly. I suspect that if the armors are not individual pieces that the team has found a way to lessen the problems we had in D2 where armor did not always appear as it should given what it was ie: leather looked like metal. Even if they haven't...it's not the end of the world and I don't think people should be jumping to the conclusion that they wanted to disappoint us or are lazy...that's just ridiculous nonsense.
I don't. When something shows up properly on your character or not, makes a huge difference.
I have no idea what you are babbling about with Memory and etc. Each character will need to be rendered individally, and beside if they have different class it would look difference - and the game won't constantly keep all armor models in memory or something. I don't see why it would, it takes an extremely small time to load and can simply do so when needed.
I'm going to take WoW as an example here. Was there additional armor models? Yes, but not that many. A LOT of items looks the same, but have drastically different textures or tint.
Bashiok may mean that there are a set models of armors done for the classes, and they are not adding more. Doesn't mean the armors won't look like they should, unless they have lazy texturing.
If you have a character that is made up of several pieces ie: the barbarian's body and then you simply attach different armors to it you will have polygons hidden underneath the new armor. That is a waste of memory and loading time. That small amount might not seem like a lot to you, but then add all the other covered areas of the character and you reach a point where it makes more sense to just make a new model that reflects the new suit of armor rather than having the hidden geometry.
Secondly, your computer might be able to put up with loading individual armor on top of your character, but what about the kid down the street who has an older computer that can't? They have to optimize the game so that it works on as many systems as possible. If the game was running off a server in many instances the player is limited by how quickly their computer can download data so by loading all the heavy data onto a Hard drive and calling it up via the web you drastically reduce the download times because that data is already on the comptuer. So, everyone will be on as level a playing field as they can be when they load the disk, they can't make the game for the best computer, in some ways they have to compromise for the worst computer in order to have the game run as best it can. Hence, why they might have chosen to not have the armors simply be separate objects; instead they swap the character model completely to reflect a change in armor.
The issue we are talking about relates to the fact that in D2 as Dimebog brought up was that the character classes had a set armor progression that was designed from the get go, limiting how a character could look when wearing any particular armor. So unless the small bit of info we got is wrong then they are taking a similar approach to this in D3. You are right that textures can make a big difference, I think we are all just hoping for a result that is as best it can be considering limitations. I suspect that there wont be any problems in the end with displaying armor correctly. But, No way to answer these questions at all without more info from Bashiok and Blizzard, so maybe it's just best if we all wait.
There are a dozen different ways this could be different in the final game, but I went back to the original gameplay trailer for some ideas. Maybe this is only there because the trailer was an early stage before they had enough models or artwork to reflect every item, but I think more than anything this is making me lean in the direction that no matter what armor your char is wearing it will result in it looking a predetermined way as in D2. It looks to me that the shoulder pads are different geometric objects at first glance from the trailer, but there is no way for me to know for sure...seems likely to me. They are probably just picking and choosing the best way to do different parts for the characters.
If helms don't even show up properly and gives completely different results, the game officially fails. In D2, the helms looked like they should, if they can't do it in D3...
But I'm pretty sure its because its an early video..
Here is a pic of the armor progression concept another person mentioned above:
I don't think if you put the same helmet on a Witch Doctor that it will appear the same if a Barbarian is wearing it. Only the stats will remain the same. The classes have specific sort of defined "levels" of armor with a few variations thrown in. A Barbarian can't look like a Wizard. At least thats the impression I'm getting. So you can mix it up by wearing different shoulder pads in relation to your armor type, but every suit of armor will only result in your character looking a specific number of ways, thus there is a finite amount of variation in how your character looks. How much variation there is in the end is up to how many "Steps" there are in evolution of armor.
I'm just guessing of course with what I can see, no way of knowing for sure until a developer tells us what's what.
but, Ya look at the concept art, and imagine you can take the shoulders of one and it it on another and the boots etc. You can get different combos, but only so many. I don't think a Barb can ever look like another class in terms of armor. I am not sure how limited it is as maybe you can take a barbs shoulder pads or helm and put them on a witch doctor, but then I see a potential sizing problem they'd have to address. Think about if you have a person with a size 17 shoe (barb) and you want put those shoes on a person with a size 7 foot (female wizard) you'd have to give them the right size for their body. That is also dependent on if the shoulder pads and helms are different geometry. The rest could be solved by texture swapping, but the UVs for the barb are different than for any other class so that would mean, they would have to go in and give a texture for a witch doctors clothing on a barb and so on for each class. That is a lot of work they may see as something they can avoid by having the characters all look specific to their class. Also, they may say that they also chose to do this for co-op game play so that a barb always looks like a barb and you can't get confused who is who. (Maybe)
^I'm not sure realistic is the word I would choose. Perhaps, more customizable. D2 no doubt in end will have less or equal customization to D3. It's just a matter of how much time they have and what choices they feel are important to address. I think I should stress that the level of quality they are trying to produce is not something that can be solved quickly, having every character class be able to cross dress armors would result in a lot of extra work.
Im sorry but diablo 2 is an old game with limiting tech
D3 should have armour that looks like it does when you wear it no matter the class
In D2 every pally looked the same hell every char looked the same this really didn't help in D1 they had better types of armour I think its gay im with jake
Umm... Wow... So you really want everybody to look THE SAME? That would get pretty boring pretty damn fast. You gotta remember, this is a video game. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic. I know there are some realism junkies around here, your opinion is okay, don't get me wrong, but I really don't think it is the direction the D3 devs are going with this.
A quote from the WWI Gameplay Video at 5:20:
Chests in Diablo 3 won't drop entire sets of armor, but we rigged this one so we can show off the most imporant part of the game: the loot. All gear is custom designed for each class and their unique look, and these pieces represent just a few of the near endless stream of items you can find.
First and foremost, Item A will not look the same on a Wizard as it will on a Barbarian or Witch Doctor. It has NEVER been this way, why exactly would they want to change that now? If anything, that in iteself would be making the game too much like WoW if you ask me. On the other hand Item A and Item B probably won't look the same on the same class either.
Those concept designs were just an idea, a basis to work off of. Different pieces should look different, but in the end you are still gonna get a general sense of how much armor a character is really packing. The concept art shows this off quite well.
I personally am all for items looking differant for classes. WoW was pretty gay for that, until end game pretty much everybody in the same armor class looked the same. You couldn't tell the clothies apart by look, early on a rogue from a hunter, later on a hunter from a shaman, and even later a Pally from a Warrior. It was pretty stupid, and since we probably are not going to see an armor limit (everyone will be able to use all types of armor), it would just make everybody look the same... I would much rather every class look much different, and people of the same class look different or the same depending on their armor, which is what Blizzard seems to be shooting for.
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There are no stupid questions, just a bunch of inquisitive idiots.
lets say you have a studded leather armor, when a barbarian wears it, it should look like it was made for a barbarian, but it should look like leather, and not have metal on it. when you have a wizard, it should look like it would be for the wizard. but should look like leather material.
it just kinda angers me when i was playing a paladin in d2 and have leather armor on and see peices of metal armor. just make the armor you have on look like it on the character
The way I understand it, there are existing concepts of various armor, and they do not have their own look, they merely adapt to the character wearing it. Basically, a gothic helm would be horned, or a mask, or whatever depending on the character. Another helm would probably also be horned, or a mask, but have some sort of variation in color or what not (not sure how much of this can there be really).
I'd prefer cross-class realistically displayed armor, honestly. Why can't I put a horned helm on my WD? Or a mask on my wizard? Why do they limit me in how my character will look like? In a 3D game? I understand DII had limitations they had so many clips to capture but here... it's just so that all WD's look like WD's and all Barbs look like Barbs and that's not really what I want, necessarily.
There should be horned, winged, etc. helmets for each class. Period.
even though i would like to see this implimented, i also want them to keep the classes looking special in there own way. like the witch doctor. i like how they made him look pretty much like he in leaves. haha
so i hope they have class specific items. but instead of like in d2, where barb had only helm class specific, sorceress had the orbs. i would like to see each class possibly having most of the items class specific in each of the 5 classes. just so if you want to look more unique with your class you can.
The way I understand it, there are existing concepts of various armor, and they do not have their own look, they merely adapt to the character wearing it. Basically, a gothic helm would be horned, or a mask, or whatever depending on the character. Another helm would probably also be horned, or a mask, but have some sort of variation in color or what not (not sure how much of this can there be really).
I'd prefer cross-class realistically displayed armor, honestly. Why can't I put a horned helm on my WD? Or a mask on my wizard? Why do they limit me in how my character will look like? In a 3D game? I understand DII had limitations they had so many clips to capture but here... it's just so that all WD's look like WD's and all Barbs look like Barbs and that's not really what I want, necessarily.
There should be horned, winged, etc. helmets for each class. Period.
I've tried to accommodate some of those questions you are having as to why some of the things might be a certain way in my previous posts. Beyond that I have to again say that NONE of us know what's actually in the game or what work they've put into the game until they explain and show it themselves. There are valid technical reasons why they might choose to not have cross character armor, but I wouldn't lose hope in that happening until someone from Blizzard tells you it wont be in there. I am just going by what I know from experience, what can see in the footage and what I've heard in vague answers from other posters here sourcing Blizz and direct info from Bashiok.
I've tried to accommodate some of those questions you are having as to why some of the things might be a certain way in my previous posts.
Technical "limitations"... if that's what you mean. All the things with which other games have dealt with successfully. I don't buy the "technical limitations" side of the argument, it just doesn't work for me. People even did it in 2D games.
The conception that 2D games to the level of Diablo II or even Diablo I are easier to make or solve problems with are ignorant. Again you have to look at the fact that Diablo II came out in a different time with different problems and for the most part still came to the conclusion that having characters be able to cross dress armors was something they maybe COULD do, but for the sake of the game decided to put their efforts into something else. If another game solved a problem that has no effect on if it's makes sense for it to be solved the same way in this game. I wish people would provide concrete examples of these amazing games that solved every technical problem facing Diablo III. On top of all that we STILL don't know what is or is not in the game.
Technical "limitations"... if that's what you mean. All the things with which other games have dealt with successfully. I don't buy the "technical limitations" side of the argument, it just doesn't work for me. People even did it in 2D games.
It works for some games because there is very little differentiating all possible characters. But Blizzard would have to make almost 5 times the models if they were going to make the armor look the same on the characters as it does in the inventory screen as the Wizard has a different frame then the Barbarian or the Witch Doctor, and very likely the other 4 characters of the last 2 classes. This takes up disk space, memory, time and resources.
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I don't think you are being oppressive at all. I have full faith that the end product will be the best it can be. I have no reason to think otherwise given the already tremendous amount of positive things I've seen and read about in far more detail than what we are discussing right now.
However, in relation to the description Bashiok gave, as short as it was I think it's clearly stated that it doesn't effect the modeling costs the more armors there are. Perhaps it's simply an incorrect statement from Bashiok himself, however if in fact armor is displayed the same way as D2 it's because it's the best way to do it efficiently at this point. In terms of memory and polycounts it's inarguable that having the armors integrated into the models topology will make the load much less heavy on the engine, especially when you consider that they are trying to optimize the game for weaker systems and that the amount of armors in the game, if they each had an individual model would be a very large number. I was assuming, probably wishful thinking, that each armor would have a corresponding 3d model that was attached to a player character, but in the end that might not make sense. Both, because of the reasons I stated above, but also the fact that Diablo is not run solely on an online multiplayer basis and that the game has to be able to run smoothly on a home PC's hard-drive. All of these balancing issues are things developers have to juggle everyday and I don't take that lightly. I suspect that if the armors are not individual pieces that the team has found a way to lessen the problems we had in D2 where armor did not always appear as it should given what it was ie: leather looked like metal. Even if they haven't...it's not the end of the world and I don't think people should be jumping to the conclusion that they wanted to disappoint us or are lazy...that's just ridiculous nonsense.
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I don't. When something shows up properly on your character or not, makes a huge difference.
I have no idea what you are babbling about with Memory and etc. Each character will need to be rendered individally, and beside if they have different class it would look difference - and the game won't constantly keep all armor models in memory or something. I don't see why it would, it takes an extremely small time to load and can simply do so when needed.
I'm going to take WoW as an example here. Was there additional armor models? Yes, but not that many. A LOT of items looks the same, but have drastically different textures or tint.
Bashiok may mean that there are a set models of armors done for the classes, and they are not adding more. Doesn't mean the armors won't look like they should, unless they have lazy texturing.
Secondly, your computer might be able to put up with loading individual armor on top of your character, but what about the kid down the street who has an older computer that can't? They have to optimize the game so that it works on as many systems as possible. If the game was running off a server in many instances the player is limited by how quickly their computer can download data so by loading all the heavy data onto a Hard drive and calling it up via the web you drastically reduce the download times because that data is already on the comptuer. So, everyone will be on as level a playing field as they can be when they load the disk, they can't make the game for the best computer, in some ways they have to compromise for the worst computer in order to have the game run as best it can. Hence, why they might have chosen to not have the armors simply be separate objects; instead they swap the character model completely to reflect a change in armor.
The issue we are talking about relates to the fact that in D2 as Dimebog brought up was that the character classes had a set armor progression that was designed from the get go, limiting how a character could look when wearing any particular armor. So unless the small bit of info we got is wrong then they are taking a similar approach to this in D3. You are right that textures can make a big difference, I think we are all just hoping for a result that is as best it can be considering limitations. I suspect that there wont be any problems in the end with displaying armor correctly. But, No way to answer these questions at all without more info from Bashiok and Blizzard, so maybe it's just best if we all wait.
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Some screencaps:
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I hope this truly is because its in early stage.
If helms don't even show up properly and gives completely different results, the game officially fails. In D2, the helms looked like they should, if they can't do it in D3...
But I'm pretty sure its because its an early video..
I don't think if you put the same helmet on a Witch Doctor that it will appear the same if a Barbarian is wearing it. Only the stats will remain the same. The classes have specific sort of defined "levels" of armor with a few variations thrown in. A Barbarian can't look like a Wizard. At least thats the impression I'm getting. So you can mix it up by wearing different shoulder pads in relation to your armor type, but every suit of armor will only result in your character looking a specific number of ways, thus there is a finite amount of variation in how your character looks. How much variation there is in the end is up to how many "Steps" there are in evolution of armor.
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but, Ya look at the concept art, and imagine you can take the shoulders of one and it it on another and the boots etc. You can get different combos, but only so many. I don't think a Barb can ever look like another class in terms of armor. I am not sure how limited it is as maybe you can take a barbs shoulder pads or helm and put them on a witch doctor, but then I see a potential sizing problem they'd have to address. Think about if you have a person with a size 17 shoe (barb) and you want put those shoes on a person with a size 7 foot (female wizard) you'd have to give them the right size for their body. That is also dependent on if the shoulder pads and helms are different geometry. The rest could be solved by texture swapping, but the UVs for the barb are different than for any other class so that would mean, they would have to go in and give a texture for a witch doctors clothing on a barb and so on for each class. That is a lot of work they may see as something they can avoid by having the characters all look specific to their class. Also, they may say that they also chose to do this for co-op game play so that a barb always looks like a barb and you can't get confused who is who. (Maybe)
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Im sorry but diablo 2 is an old game with limiting tech
D3 should have armour that looks like it does when you wear it no matter the class
In D2 every pally looked the same hell every char looked the same this really didn't help in D1 they had better types of armour I think its gay im with jake
A quote from the WWI Gameplay Video at 5:20:
First and foremost, Item A will not look the same on a Wizard as it will on a Barbarian or Witch Doctor. It has NEVER been this way, why exactly would they want to change that now? If anything, that in iteself would be making the game too much like WoW if you ask me. On the other hand Item A and Item B probably won't look the same on the same class either.
Those concept designs were just an idea, a basis to work off of. Different pieces should look different, but in the end you are still gonna get a general sense of how much armor a character is really packing. The concept art shows this off quite well.
I personally am all for items looking differant for classes. WoW was pretty gay for that, until end game pretty much everybody in the same armor class looked the same. You couldn't tell the clothies apart by look, early on a rogue from a hunter, later on a hunter from a shaman, and even later a Pally from a Warrior. It was pretty stupid, and since we probably are not going to see an armor limit (everyone will be able to use all types of armor), it would just make everybody look the same... I would much rather every class look much different, and people of the same class look different or the same depending on their armor, which is what Blizzard seems to be shooting for.
lets say you have a studded leather armor, when a barbarian wears it, it should look like it was made for a barbarian, but it should look like leather, and not have metal on it. when you have a wizard, it should look like it would be for the wizard. but should look like leather material.
it just kinda angers me when i was playing a paladin in d2 and have leather armor on and see peices of metal armor. just make the armor you have on look like it on the character
I'd prefer cross-class realistically displayed armor, honestly. Why can't I put a horned helm on my WD? Or a mask on my wizard? Why do they limit me in how my character will look like? In a 3D game? I understand DII had limitations they had so many clips to capture but here... it's just so that all WD's look like WD's and all Barbs look like Barbs and that's not really what I want, necessarily.
There should be horned, winged, etc. helmets for each class. Period.
so i hope they have class specific items. but instead of like in d2, where barb had only helm class specific, sorceress had the orbs. i would like to see each class possibly having most of the items class specific in each of the 5 classes. just so if you want to look more unique with your class you can.
that might be a little to much
I've tried to accommodate some of those questions you are having as to why some of the things might be a certain way in my previous posts. Beyond that I have to again say that NONE of us know what's actually in the game or what work they've put into the game until they explain and show it themselves. There are valid technical reasons why they might choose to not have cross character armor, but I wouldn't lose hope in that happening until someone from Blizzard tells you it wont be in there. I am just going by what I know from experience, what can see in the footage and what I've heard in vague answers from other posters here sourcing Blizz and direct info from Bashiok.
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>{Dynasty DiabloFans Thread}<
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