As long as i don't have to spend 10 minutes running to a point to grab 5 healing salve leaves to heal the old drunk in town, then run back to get my measly 200xp ill be happy
I use my interpretation of the (pretty ambiguous) definition given to me by wiki. If you're interpretation of the definition of an RPG comes down to pretty much concluding all games are essentially RPG's then obviously something is wrong with your interpretation seeing that the goal of a definition is to actually define something.
Forget the whole "playing the role" thing. I get that. I don't believe that all games are RPG's. However, Diablo uses game mechanics that were originally derived from classic RPG games, so my only claim that is in-part the game is an RPG. Why does that bother you so much? Would it please you more if I said that that Diablo is an action game with RPG influence? We're kind of getting into semantics here aren't we?
To Daemaro
I don't know what you're talking about. FF and Zelda are certainly RPG's. The generally meet my criteria just fine. Both have dialogues, they have open worlds, etc. Maybe not classic but still RPG's. Diablo is just so far away it's a whole other matter entirely.
People keep saying if a game doesn't have any choice in the story then it's not a RPG. You have no more choice on things in FF than you do in Diablo.
As for the worlds, they're about the same amount of "open" you can follow story or go explore side areas.
Personally I think Diablo could be done as an MMO, it would just have to be one which pushes the MMO genre's boundaries in order to still feel like a Diablo game. The quests would have to be more-so combat oriented with only core story quests ever involving that 'run out and fetch X of this' crap (as puscifer462 mentioned). The combat would have to be more dynamic then any MMO i've seen to date, and the game would be best to stray away from the tank/heal/dps with an aggro system. It would be quite a challenge to balance all that, but blizzard has amazed me before
People keep saying if a game doesn't have any choice in the story then it's not a RPG. You have no more choice on things in FF than you do in Diablo.
As for the worlds, they're about the same amount of "open" you can follow story or go explore side areas.
Clearly not even Equinox and Doppelganger agree on this. I fear I may never know the truth!:P
Being serious again though, some of the quests in Diablo 2 are optional. Can't that be considered side content or "fluff?" For instance, you find out about the Countess from a book in the Black Marsh. As far as I can tell that was a side-plot that had nothing to do with the main story. So technically Diablo has some non-linear qualities but I have a feeling that's not going to satisfy Doppel:P
So Diablo doesn't have a single RPG element in it?
I did not say that.
This is my reasoning. You don't agree with it, fine.
You know why the whole term "elements" even exists? Because there is this thing called hybrids and non-classical genres. Because not all games fit a certain genre, or they do not fit it completely, or they fit two genres.
Leveling and choosing skills is an RPG ELEMENT. But, presence of RPG elements does NOT make a game an RPG. It makes it a game with RPG elements. A true RPG needs EXTENSIVE RPG elements that are the CENTER of the game.
Is playing a role anywhere near the center of Diablo? No. Killing monsters and collecitng loot is. I call that Hack&Slash or Point-and-Click or Beat-them-Up or whatever. With RPG elements. Not an RPG. A game with RPG ELEMENTS.
I keep getting the impression that people here don't play other RPG's at all. That nobody here touched Fallout, BG, P:T, Arena/Daggerfall, NWN. Because if you played any of those games you would not say that customization is a big part of Diablo, or that the story is a big part of Diablo, or the role, or whatever, because in those aforementioned games those things are so much bigger, more developed, and important that the contrast simply would not permit one to chuck those two types of games into the same category.
And please don't ask me if "omg are you saying game A is not RPG". I'm not saying anything. Where you draw the line is up to you but Diablo is just nowhere near that line. I can put FF (JRPG) and Zelda (ARPG) into a subtype and I prefer to put heXen (FPS with RPG elements) and Diablo (Hack&Slash) outside. If you believe it is, you have to agree that Baldur's Gate and Diablo play the same and by playing one you would be pretty familiar with the other. Can you say that?
I can play one FPS and I can deal with most of them. Aim, shoot, move.
I can play one RTS I can deal with most of them. Build buildings, train units...
I can play Diablo but I played Diablo for ages
(go out, click on monsters, pick up loot, run some more, TP when full; get level up, put points in skill and spam it)
then I opened up NWN I was like "WTF is this?"
(no monsters at first, need to talk to a ton of people, make choices in dialogue and actually pay attention to what people are saying, choose a ton of all these weird feats/skills junk with 5 races and gender and alignment even voice and background)
There was no connection between the two games.
This is the purpose of GENRES. To classify games by how they PLAY and how they FEEL. NWN and Diablo neither play nor feel the same. How can you call them both RPG?
While FF and Zelda are not pure RPG's they at least generally have the same vibe of existing in the game and affecting it rather than mindlessly killing monsters for no purpose other than collecing items and gaining levels or PK'ing other players.
Problem with calling Diablo an RPG is because you're starting to attribute all RPG qualities to Diablo and that doesn't really work. You start argumenting that since Diablo is an RPG it should have or may have this and that. But we're really talking about a completely different game. You're talking about raising a Hack&Slash to the RPG level. It's not going to happen. You can add elements, but "It's an RPG" is not an argument, because either a) you include a huge array of games into "RPG" and it's no longer a useful term, (e.g., you can say let's add a weight system because other TRUE RPG's have it) or you use your own definition which is biased.
I was waiting for you to stop by i always like to hear what you have to say... I wonder if ill ever write something you will agree with under that scrutiny lol.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Always respect the purity of battle. For only in the heart of combat are all pretenses of nobility and quality stripped away, replaced by survival and death."
BTW we have gotten a little off topic so if anyone wants to open a thread calld "definition of RPG" they can but lets asume that since all the Diablo games have recived Best RPG awards from many sources and Diablo 1 reciving Second Best RPG of all time award (i doubt anything will ever top D&D).... it is an RPG for this thread...
All im asking is that your arguments stay within the same playing field not on a field and a court, just trying to set up some kind of parameters.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Always respect the purity of battle. For only in the heart of combat are all pretenses of nobility and quality stripped away, replaced by survival and death."
We don't need a thread like that because it's a pointless argument. Even if select members here believe it's not an RPG, the rest of the gaming community with have a different opinion. They have a different criteria, so be it.
This is my reasoning. You don't agree with it, fine.
You know why the whole term "elements" even exists? Because there is this thing called hybrids and non-classical genres. Because not all games fit a certain genre, or they do not fit it completely, or they fit two genres.
Just not seeing where this proves your point. Diablo is listed as an Action RPG because you control your character in real time and you are bound by specific RPG elements. This puts Diablo somewhere - I'm not saying where exactly - in the RPG "realm." I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that.
Quote from "Equinox" »
Leveling and choosing skills is an RPG ELEMENT. But, presence of RPG elements does NOT make a game an RPG. It makes it a game with RPG elements. A true RPG needs EXTENSIVE RPG elements that are the CENTER of the game.
Again with the word "extensive." This isn't telling us anything helpful because no two interpretations of the word "extensive" will ever be exactly the same. Your character in Diablo, who I might add is the center of the game, is governed by an RPG element. How many more RPG elements would your character need to be affected by to bring it into the RPG genre? Three? Four?
Quote from "Equinox" »
Is playing a role anywhere near the center of Diablo? No. Killing monsters and collecitng loot is. I call that Hack&Slash or Point-and-Click or Beat-them-Up or whatever. With RPG elements. Not an RPG. A game with RPG ELEMENTS.
I keep getting the impression that people here don't play other RPG's at all. That nobody here touched Fallout, BG, P:T, Arena/Daggerfall, NWN. Because if you played any of those games you would not say that customization is a big part of Diablo, or that the story is a big part of Diablo, or the role, or whatever, because in those aforementioned games those things are so much bigger, more developed, and important that the contrast simply would not permit one to chuck those two types of games into the same category.
I'm putting Diablo and Baldur's Gate in the same general category because if I didn't then I would be blatantly ignoring the things they have in common. Even if it's only one attribute they share together, that ultimately means that if you go back far enough they come from a common ancestor.
Quote from "Equinox" »
And please don't ask me if "omg are you saying game A is not RPG". I'm not saying anything. Where you draw the line is up to you but Diablo is just nowhere near that line. I can put FF (JRPG) and Zelda (ARPG) into a subtype and I prefer to put heXen (FPS with RPG elements) and Diablo (Hack&Slash) outside. If you believe it is, you have to agree that Baldur's Gate and Diablo play the same and by playing one you would be pretty familiar with the other. Can you say that?
So how is Zelda an RPG? Story is very linear, you don't speak at all except to say yes or no - which is an illusion to begin with because the NPC's won't respond to you until you say yes. We're really just getting into semantics here. I am saying (and Wiki agrees with me by the way) that a game that has RPG elements belongs somewhere in the RPG genre, albeit in a sub genre depending on what other elements affect the gameplay. You would rather me say that it's a Hack and Slash with RPG influence.
Quote from "Equinox" »
I can play one FPS and I can deal with most of them. Aim, shoot, move.
I can play one RTS I can deal with most of them. Build buildings, train units...
I can play Diablo but I played Diablo for ages
(go out, click on monsters, pick up loot, run some more, TP when full; get level up, put points in skill and spam it)
then I opened up NWN I was like "WTF is this?"
(no monsters at first, need to talk to a ton of people, make choices in dialogue and actually pay attention to what people are saying, choose a ton of all these weird feats/skills junk with 5 races and gender and alignment even voice and background)
There was no connection between the two games.
This is the purpose of GENRES. To classify games by how they PLAY and how they FEEL. NWN and Diablo neither play nor feel the same. How can you call them both RPG?
While FF and Zelda are not pure RPG's they at least generally have the same vibe of existing in the game and affecting it rather than mindlessly killing monsters for no purpose other than collecing items and gaining levels or PK'ing other players.
I get that NWN and Diablo are not specifically the same type of game. Apples and oranges are completely diiferent from eachother but they are both still types of fruit. I do not compare NWN and Diablo for any other reason than to say that some of their qualities originated from the same place.
Quote from "Equinox" »
Problem with calling Diablo an RPG is because you're starting to attribute all RPG qualities to Diablo and that doesn't really work. You start argumenting that since Diablo is an RPG it should have or may have this and that. But we're really talking about a completely different game. You're talking about raising a Hack&Slash to the RPG level. It's not going to happen. You can add elements, but "It's an RPG" is not an argument, because either a) you include a huge array of games into "RPG" and it's no longer a useful term, (e.g., you can say let's add a weight system because other TRUE RPG's have it) or you use your own definition which is biased.
Someone gave the wiki definition of an RPG game and I made it fit to relate to Diablo's gameplay. I assume that you're claiming that the connections I made with the definition are not legitimate? I'm not saying that when I think of a RPG that I think of Diablo, or that Diablo is the epitome of a RPG, but that it belongs somewhere in that genre because it contains some (even if it's just one) qualities with other RPG's. Apparently all of the gaming magazines and websites that rated Diablo as an RPG game have no idea what they're talking about. Just lump me in with them I guess.
You don't aim in RPG games, and combat is not based on player's reflexes. And you don't assume roles that affect the story in D2. End of story. It's not an RPG.
Selecting your skills and leveling up is just something that D2 has in common with some RPG games. Those elements are not even what defines an RPG game, so it's even wrong to call them 'RPG elements'. They can be found in some RTS games and you don't call them RPGs?
P.S. Doppelganger, WoW meets all the definitions of an RPG that you listed, so I don't see how it is not an RPG.
Using "public ignorance" to back up a claim is about as weak as it gets. It can be used for pretty much anything, and it certainly doesn't make it any more correct.
Edit:
And Dimebog (assuming you were being serious and not sarcastic) , there's so much fail in your post it's not even funny. One of the greatest Western RPG's ever created is Mass Effect. Guess what? You aim in the game the entire time.
And let's take your second argument about story influence. Okay, in Star Wars: KOTOR, and pretty much most other RPGs you don't have any influence on the story. It's all a clever diversion to play on, as it was put earlier, player ignorance. There are very few games where your choices actually affect what happens in the game. In fact there's as much player influence on the story in Diablo as there is in most other RPGs. Hello, Final Fantasy?
Forget the whole "playing the role" thing. I get that. I don't believe that all games are RPG's. However, Diablo uses game mechanics that were originally derived from classic RPG games, so my only claim that is in-part the game is an RPG. Why does that bother you so much? Would it please you more if I said that that Diablo is an action game with RPG influence? We're kind of getting into semantics here aren't we?
People keep saying if a game doesn't have any choice in the story then it's not a RPG. You have no more choice on things in FF than you do in Diablo.
As for the worlds, they're about the same amount of "open" you can follow story or go explore side areas.
I'm also waiting for someone to argue to me that Final Fantasy is not an RPG.
CyberPunk RP Nexus
Clearly not even Equinox and Doppelganger agree on this. I fear I may never know the truth!:P
Being serious again though, some of the quests in Diablo 2 are optional. Can't that be considered side content or "fluff?" For instance, you find out about the Countess from a book in the Black Marsh. As far as I can tell that was a side-plot that had nothing to do with the main story. So technically Diablo has some non-linear qualities but I have a feeling that's not going to satisfy Doppel:P
This is my reasoning. You don't agree with it, fine.
You know why the whole term "elements" even exists? Because there is this thing called hybrids and non-classical genres. Because not all games fit a certain genre, or they do not fit it completely, or they fit two genres.
Leveling and choosing skills is an RPG ELEMENT. But, presence of RPG elements does NOT make a game an RPG. It makes it a game with RPG elements. A true RPG needs EXTENSIVE RPG elements that are the CENTER of the game.
Is playing a role anywhere near the center of Diablo? No. Killing monsters and collecitng loot is. I call that Hack&Slash or Point-and-Click or Beat-them-Up or whatever. With RPG elements. Not an RPG. A game with RPG ELEMENTS.
I keep getting the impression that people here don't play other RPG's at all. That nobody here touched Fallout, BG, P:T, Arena/Daggerfall, NWN. Because if you played any of those games you would not say that customization is a big part of Diablo, or that the story is a big part of Diablo, or the role, or whatever, because in those aforementioned games those things are so much bigger, more developed, and important that the contrast simply would not permit one to chuck those two types of games into the same category.
And please don't ask me if "omg are you saying game A is not RPG". I'm not saying anything. Where you draw the line is up to you but Diablo is just nowhere near that line. I can put FF (JRPG) and Zelda (ARPG) into a subtype and I prefer to put heXen (FPS with RPG elements) and Diablo (Hack&Slash) outside. If you believe it is, you have to agree that Baldur's Gate and Diablo play the same and by playing one you would be pretty familiar with the other. Can you say that?
I can play one FPS and I can deal with most of them. Aim, shoot, move.
I can play one RTS I can deal with most of them. Build buildings, train units...
I can play Diablo but I played Diablo for ages
(go out, click on monsters, pick up loot, run some more, TP when full; get level up, put points in skill and spam it)
then I opened up NWN I was like "WTF is this?"
(no monsters at first, need to talk to a ton of people, make choices in dialogue and actually pay attention to what people are saying, choose a ton of all these weird feats/skills junk with 5 races and gender and alignment even voice and background)
There was no connection between the two games.
This is the purpose of GENRES. To classify games by how they PLAY and how they FEEL. NWN and Diablo neither play nor feel the same. How can you call them both RPG?
While FF and Zelda are not pure RPG's they at least generally have the same vibe of existing in the game and affecting it rather than mindlessly killing monsters for no purpose other than collecing items and gaining levels or PK'ing other players.
Problem with calling Diablo an RPG is because you're starting to attribute all RPG qualities to Diablo and that doesn't really work. You start argumenting that since Diablo is an RPG it should have or may have this and that. But we're really talking about a completely different game. You're talking about raising a Hack&Slash to the RPG level. It's not going to happen. You can add elements, but "It's an RPG" is not an argument, because either a) you include a huge array of games into "RPG" and it's no longer a useful term, (e.g., you can say let's add a weight system because other TRUE RPG's have it) or you use your own definition which is biased.
CyberPunk RP Nexus
I was waiting for you to stop by i always like to hear what you have to say... I wonder if ill ever write something you will agree with under that scrutiny lol.
-Leoric of Khanduras, The Craft of War
All im asking is that your arguments stay within the same playing field not on a field and a court, just trying to set up some kind of parameters.
-Leoric of Khanduras, The Craft of War
CyberPunk RP Nexus
Just not seeing where this proves your point. Diablo is listed as an Action RPG because you control your character in real time and you are bound by specific RPG elements. This puts Diablo somewhere - I'm not saying where exactly - in the RPG "realm." I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that.
Again with the word "extensive." This isn't telling us anything helpful because no two interpretations of the word "extensive" will ever be exactly the same. Your character in Diablo, who I might add is the center of the game, is governed by an RPG element. How many more RPG elements would your character need to be affected by to bring it into the RPG genre? Three? Four?
I'm putting Diablo and Baldur's Gate in the same general category because if I didn't then I would be blatantly ignoring the things they have in common. Even if it's only one attribute they share together, that ultimately means that if you go back far enough they come from a common ancestor.
So how is Zelda an RPG? Story is very linear, you don't speak at all except to say yes or no - which is an illusion to begin with because the NPC's won't respond to you until you say yes. We're really just getting into semantics here. I am saying (and Wiki agrees with me by the way) that a game that has RPG elements belongs somewhere in the RPG genre, albeit in a sub genre depending on what other elements affect the gameplay. You would rather me say that it's a Hack and Slash with RPG influence.
I get that NWN and Diablo are not specifically the same type of game. Apples and oranges are completely diiferent from eachother but they are both still types of fruit. I do not compare NWN and Diablo for any other reason than to say that some of their qualities originated from the same place.
Someone gave the wiki definition of an RPG game and I made it fit to relate to Diablo's gameplay. I assume that you're claiming that the connections I made with the definition are not legitimate? I'm not saying that when I think of a RPG that I think of Diablo, or that Diablo is the epitome of a RPG, but that it belongs somewhere in that genre because it contains some (even if it's just one) qualities with other RPG's. Apparently all of the gaming magazines and websites that rated Diablo as an RPG game have no idea what they're talking about. Just lump me in with them I guess.
Pointless (and wrong) argument is pointless (and wrong).
CyberPunk RP Nexus
I know it's hard for some people to believe ... but just because you can form a coherent argument doesn't mean you're right.
CyberPunk RP Nexus
Selecting your skills and leveling up is just something that D2 has in common with some RPG games. Those elements are not even what defines an RPG game, so it's even wrong to call them 'RPG elements'. They can be found in some RTS games and you don't call them RPGs?
P.S. Doppelganger, WoW meets all the definitions of an RPG that you listed, so I don't see how it is not an RPG.
Edit:
And Dimebog (assuming you were being serious and not sarcastic) , there's so much fail in your post it's not even funny. One of the greatest Western RPG's ever created is Mass Effect. Guess what? You aim in the game the entire time.
And let's take your second argument about story influence. Okay, in Star Wars: KOTOR, and pretty much most other RPGs you don't have any influence on the story. It's all a clever diversion to play on, as it was put earlier, player ignorance. There are very few games where your choices actually affect what happens in the game. In fact there's as much player influence on the story in Diablo as there is in most other RPGs. Hello, Final Fantasy?
CyberPunk RP Nexus
Though by your criteria for an RPG, that must not leave very many games that you consider RPGs.
CyberPunk RP Nexus
I wouldn't really call it watered down, though. I like the diversity.
CyberPunk RP Nexus
While I personally consider Diablo some type of an RPG, it doesn't hold a candle next to Baldur's Gate(Or any other RPG for that matter).
Warhammer Online: Mystics - R40/RR41 Goblin Shaman
That's not an insult, so please don't feel butt-hurt. You know, not all good games have to be RPGs?