before ros expansion diablo 3 didn't have a group meta it was just what you like playing. now in groups you got to play 1 dps and 3 supports which is okay with me but its get really boring. Its also really unfair to those people who don't want to play support with the same class over and over again. Diablo 3 should have any class that can reach 4man without 1dps and 3 supports. maybe 3 dps and 1 support. would be fun for a change
Beware: Someone is going to come in here and have something to say about "you don't have to play the meta" etc etc and all the other stale discussions that come with it, but it really does get boring not being able to play what you like while still being competitive and being able to play with others without scrutiny (just in general).
there is always going to be a 100% most efficient set up. it's an guarentee of game design. Even if every single class and set was exactly perfectly balanced down to the smallest fraction to not have an inherent advantage over the others, there would still be an optimal set-up because each set is better at different things, and high tier rifts require different things, otherwise we would essentially only have 1 set.. And because people are going to be competitive, even in that ideal world were every set is at the same power level, people are still going to want to use the optimal set up because it benefits them most. Hence the meta forms. It happens in every game that you will ever see or play that has any competitive aspect. Right now it's 1 dps 3 support. A couple of patchs ago it was 2 dps 2 support, before that it was 4 dps. It's always rotating, so stop your bitching.
before the ros there was no real competitive aspect, so there was no meta that most people were aware of. There was definitely a most efficient party set-up for core runs, and that was the meta among people who wanted clear speed more than anything, most people just didn't care enough because there was no real competition.
The only thing blizzard has any real control of is the difference between the tier 1 builds and the none, but there is always going to be a tier 1 build and party set-up, which by definition means there has to be a tier 2 and lower.
Don't like it? find 3 other people to play with who don't care. But don't ask blizzard to fix something that can't be fixed because you don't want to abide by rules other players set even if it inconveniences them just because you don't like playing the meta.
looking at the changes made at the ptr i think blizzard also didnt like the last meta. Some changes might still happen, and with any luck we wont be having 3 support on this next season, at least thats what im hoping for
There are 2 major reasons the 1 dps + 3 zdps meta exists. Scaling mob dmg requires as many buffs/cc you can get to keep the dps alive at higher Gr lvls. The second and really the bigger issue that will prevent even 2 dps is the lag. D3s servers simply cant handle the numbers. This is why zdps go with no area dmg or LoH. In its current state, the game would lock up every time you grouped up enough mobs to kill with 2 dps .
There are 2 major reasons the 1 dps + 3 zdps meta exists. Scaling mob dmg requires as many buffs/cc you can get to keep the dps alive at higher Gr lvls. The second and really the bigger issue that will prevent even 2 dps is the lag. D3s servers simply cant handle the numbers. This is why zdps go with no area dmg or LoH. In its current state, the game would lock up every time you grouped up enough mobs to kill with 2 dps .
For most of the past seasons 2 dps + 2 zdps was the meta because it provided the best utility combined with the best dps and the least lag. We saw 3 zdps start in S3 speed runs only because people wanted to leach XP+gear on their dps class but it was uncommon, in S4 supports were able to act as dpsers thanks to Static Charge monk proc'ing from everybody's attacks but there was still many groups with EP monk + SC monk. S5 is when 1 dps + 3 zdps was mandatory and it has nothing to do with buffs or lag, it was entirely because of a brokenly OP sword and a brokenly OP passive that allowed 1 class to pump out lingering AoE spells that scaled exponentially and reached heights unforeseen by the devs.
Lag is a byproduct of too many mobs taking damage too frequently. The game was designed around the assumption that mobs would die fast so things like DoT's ticking many times per second or the Area Damage stat which proc's multiple times off of spells that already do AoE damage (aka exponential scaling) are okay when things die fast but it lags to all hell when you group a ton of shit together and it never dies. They have slowly been redesigning things ever since S1 to reduce the number of calculations but AD is fundamentally flawed, DoT's need to tick less frequently, and mobs need to leash to prevent over-grouping (too much density).
The meta is controllable, they can promote builds that cause less lag by making those builds' dps the highest, they can reduce the utility of support specs, they can make DoT's tick less often, and they could redesign AD to only work with single target spells or only proc off the first target hit ortons of other things that don't create exponential calculations...
There are 2 major reasons the 1 dps + 3 zdps meta exists. Scaling mob dmg requires as many buffs/cc you can get to keep the dps alive at higher Gr lvls. The second and really the bigger issue that will prevent even 2 dps is the lag. D3s servers simply cant handle the numbers. This is why zdps go with no area dmg or LoH. In its current state, the game would lock up every time you grouped up enough mobs to kill with 2 dps .
For most of the past seasons 2 dps + 2 zdps was the meta because it provided the best utility combined with the best dps and the least lag. We saw 3 zdps start in S3 speed runs only because people wanted to leach XP+gear on their dps class but it was uncommon, in S4 supports were able to act as dpsers thanks to Static Charge monk proc'ing from everybody's attacks but there was still many groups with EP monk + SC monk. S5 is when 1 dps + 3 zdps was mandatory and it has nothing to do with buffs or lag, it was entirely because of a brokenly OP sword and a brokenly OP passive that allowed 1 class to pump out lingering AoE spells that scaled exponentially and reached heights unforeseen by the devs.
Lag is a byproduct of too many mobs taking damage too frequently. The game was designed around the assumption that mobs would die fast so things like DoT's ticking many times per second or the Area Damage stat which proc's multiple times off of spells that already do AoE damage (aka exponential scaling) are okay when things die fast but it lags to all hell when you group a ton of shit together and it never dies. They have slowly been redesigning things ever since S1 to reduce the number of calculations but AD is fundamentally flawed, DoT's need to tick less frequently, and mobs need to leash to prevent over-grouping (too much density).
The meta is controllable, they can promote builds that cause less lag by making those builds' dps the highest, they can reduce the utility of support specs, they can make DoT's tick less often, and they could redesign AD to only work with single target spells or only proc off the first target hit ortons of other things that don't create exponential calculations...
Fyp. Ye and as said above the gap between top tier and other tiers is important. It should not be 30 Gr levels but mb 5-10. Then you can still be competitive in a sense of reaching top 100 without a perfect setup. And if you really want to get to the top 10 you have to sacrifice life and fun over the game anyways.
How can you be so sure that other compositions are that far behind? What if other compositions are in fact 5-10 grifts lower. I mean, have you TRIED it?
Those who push the leaderboards are playing the meta. That doesn't mean that you can't reach GR90-100 with another composition.
I indeed tried it with my group. But that was after about 2 weeks when we hit p1000 or so. i played DH as main and had to do a barb because of meta (i know dh support is also possible). We tried to make other combos workable for at least GR 90-95. But it completely failed. To compensate the insane sorc damage you would more need damagedealer and this wasnt even enough. And then you have a huge toughness problem. It just completely did not work. But of course we did not try all builds and class combinations. mb something hidden was there.
Lag is not the only reason for the current meta. It is not always of greatest benefit to run DPS in place of support. Group buffs, such as mantras can provide much needed survivability, allowing the DPS to stay on target for longer (as opposed to dying and causing a noticeable drop in DPS). Numerous classes can also provide group dmg buffs, which can provide higher dmg bonus than an additional DPS. Remember, 1x DPS provides 100% dmg; 2x DPS provides 200% dmg (200/100 = 2x); 3x DPS provides 300% dmg (300/200 = 1.5x), 4x DPS provides 400% dmg (400/300 = 1.33x). As you can see, adding more DPS into a group provides a reduced bonus after the 2nd DPS.
So basically, if we didn't have the lag issue, the meta would consist of 2x DPS and 2x support, provided that 2x support was enough to handle the group's cc/survivability needs. This statement should hold true while support classes offer more attractive group dmg bonuses than DPS classes.
It's not that 2+ DPS can't do better than 1 DPS + 3 support, the servers just can't handle it. There's no reason to even bother trying to push with a group comp that gives you 2000ms+ ping.
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before ros expansion diablo 3 didn't have a group meta it was just what you like playing. now in groups you got to play 1 dps and 3 supports which is okay with me but its get really boring. Its also really unfair to those people who don't want to play support with the same class over and over again. Diablo 3 should have any class that can reach 4man without 1dps and 3 supports. maybe 3 dps and 1 support. would be fun for a change
Absolutely.
Beware: Someone is going to come in here and have something to say about "you don't have to play the meta" etc etc and all the other stale discussions that come with it, but it really does get boring not being able to play what you like while still being competitive and being able to play with others without scrutiny (just in general).
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The most simple solution: get all the builds of all classes that are on the meta.
there is always going to be a 100% most efficient set up. it's an guarentee of game design. Even if every single class and set was exactly perfectly balanced down to the smallest fraction to not have an inherent advantage over the others, there would still be an optimal set-up because each set is better at different things, and high tier rifts require different things, otherwise we would essentially only have 1 set.. And because people are going to be competitive, even in that ideal world were every set is at the same power level, people are still going to want to use the optimal set up because it benefits them most. Hence the meta forms. It happens in every game that you will ever see or play that has any competitive aspect. Right now it's 1 dps 3 support. A couple of patchs ago it was 2 dps 2 support, before that it was 4 dps. It's always rotating, so stop your bitching.
before the ros there was no real competitive aspect, so there was no meta that most people were aware of. There was definitely a most efficient party set-up for core runs, and that was the meta among people who wanted clear speed more than anything, most people just didn't care enough because there was no real competition.
The only thing blizzard has any real control of is the difference between the tier 1 builds and the none, but there is always going to be a tier 1 build and party set-up, which by definition means there has to be a tier 2 and lower.
Don't like it? find 3 other people to play with who don't care. But don't ask blizzard to fix something that can't be fixed because you don't want to abide by rules other players set even if it inconveniences them just because you don't like playing the meta.
looking at the changes made at the ptr i think blizzard also didnt like the last meta. Some changes might still happen, and with any luck we wont be having 3 support on this next season, at least thats what im hoping for
There are 2 major reasons the 1 dps + 3 zdps meta exists. Scaling mob dmg requires as many buffs/cc you can get to keep the dps alive at higher Gr lvls. The second and really the bigger issue that will prevent even 2 dps is the lag. D3s servers simply cant handle the numbers. This is why zdps go with no area dmg or LoH. In its current state, the game would lock up every time you grouped up enough mobs to kill with 2 dps .
For most of the past seasons 2 dps + 2 zdps was the meta because it provided the best utility combined with the best dps and the least lag. We saw 3 zdps start in S3 speed runs only because people wanted to leach XP+gear on their dps class but it was uncommon, in S4 supports were able to act as dpsers thanks to Static Charge monk proc'ing from everybody's attacks but there was still many groups with EP monk + SC monk. S5 is when 1 dps + 3 zdps was mandatory and it has nothing to do with buffs or lag, it was entirely because of a brokenly OP sword and a brokenly OP passive that allowed 1 class to pump out lingering AoE spells that scaled exponentially and reached heights unforeseen by the devs.
Lag is a byproduct of too many mobs taking damage too frequently. The game was designed around the assumption that mobs would die fast so things like DoT's ticking many times per second or the Area Damage stat which proc's multiple times off of spells that already do AoE damage (aka exponential scaling) are okay when things die fast but it lags to all hell when you group a ton of shit together and it never dies. They have slowly been redesigning things ever since S1 to reduce the number of calculations but AD is fundamentally flawed, DoT's need to tick less frequently, and mobs need to leash to prevent over-grouping (too much density).
The meta is controllable, they can promote builds that cause less lag by making those builds' dps the highest, they can reduce the utility of support specs, they can make DoT's tick less often, and they could redesign AD to only work with single target spells or only proc off the first target hit ortons of other things that don't create exponential calculations...
I indeed tried it with my group. But that was after about 2 weeks when we hit p1000 or so. i played DH as main and had to do a barb because of meta (i know dh support is also possible). We tried to make other combos workable for at least GR 90-95. But it completely failed. To compensate the insane sorc damage you would more need damagedealer and this wasnt even enough. And then you have a huge toughness problem. It just completely did not work. But of course we did not try all builds and class combinations. mb something hidden was there.
Lag is not the only reason for the current meta. It is not always of greatest benefit to run DPS in place of support. Group buffs, such as mantras can provide much needed survivability, allowing the DPS to stay on target for longer (as opposed to dying and causing a noticeable drop in DPS). Numerous classes can also provide group dmg buffs, which can provide higher dmg bonus than an additional DPS. Remember, 1x DPS provides 100% dmg; 2x DPS provides 200% dmg (200/100 = 2x); 3x DPS provides 300% dmg (300/200 = 1.5x), 4x DPS provides 400% dmg (400/300 = 1.33x). As you can see, adding more DPS into a group provides a reduced bonus after the 2nd DPS.
So basically, if we didn't have the lag issue, the meta would consist of 2x DPS and 2x support, provided that 2x support was enough to handle the group's cc/survivability needs. This statement should hold true while support classes offer more attractive group dmg bonuses than DPS classes.
It's not that 2+ DPS can't do better than 1 DPS + 3 support, the servers just can't handle it. There's no reason to even bother trying to push with a group comp that gives you 2000ms+ ping.