I'd be incredibly surprised if Diablo 3 sucked. You realize Blizzard scrapped the game several times, and the art direction - I believe three times - revising it?
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If you don't have anything good to say, say it on the internet.
I'd be incredibly surprised if Diablo 3 sucked. You realize Blizzard scrapped the game several times, and the art direction - I believe three times - revising it?
That sounds like the political infighting I suspected took place leading to Blizzard North losing it's baby and Blizzard Irvine getting their grubby little paws on it. Mike Huang the ex-Blizzard North employee who spoke out a month ago said they debated frequently with Irvine over direction. Irvine obviously won the spat with the executives and got to have their way. It's been my experience egos and power is more a factor in political battles and less to do with what is best for the customer.
Having worked in IT for many years myself I have learned it is bad to try and have a technical debate in front of non-technical executives. The debate is usually over their head and in the end it boils down to friendship or who handled themselves best in the debate. Unfortunately winning a political battle doesn't equate to being right, frequently it's the exact opposite. Reading Huang's comments it seems to me B-North knew their fan base better and tried to cater to us, B-Irvine wanted something new to sink it's teeth into and went after Diablo and are now changing the look and feel to a more WOW environment.
Since the direction is locked in stone now and time is money, the Irvine people now are going out of their way to try and sell the Diablo fan base on their new way of thinking such as producer Keith Lee and Jay Wilson has done letting us know it’s too late to change. I don't think Irvine expected there to be this kind of backlash from the fan base or concern that it would matter if Blizzard North or Irvine made the game. Obviously they were wrong and now perhaps are understanding they should have listened to B-North a little closer, hind site is 20/20 and vindication sadly always comes at the expense of people not listening to others.
I don't think 50,000 complaints really registers on Blizzards radar at all. I know if I had a customer base of several millions it would take a lot more than 50k to make me reconsider. Blizzard North ofshoot companies both flopping probably doesn't really send that many shivers down their spines either.
You are right about the 50,000 complaints. Of course there are likely a lot more Diablo fans right now who are not aware of D3 or it's look, not everyone follows gaming close. If it weren’t for the headline on google news I wouldn’t have known. Final judgment will be reserved after it’s released.
I think that is a load of foo by an art director trying to defend their altered course about it becoming “difficult to see what was actually going on and that the light radius from previous games wasn't working in 3D." One thing they could do out the gate to improve the dungeon scenes would be to drop the green tint and move to a darker blue.
It would give a colder feeling right out of the gate, like any stone unlit underground place would be and targets wouldn’t be any more difficult to track by that change alone. Blizzard will have it's way but fans won't get over it, this will be the talk for some time to come.
I think that is a load of foo by an art director trying to defend their altered course about it becoming “difficult to see what was actually going on and that the light radius from previous games wasn't working in 3D." One thing they could do out the gate to improve the dungeon scenes would be to drop the green tint and move to a darker blue.
So how would removing the green glow and replacing it with a blue glow do anything for the light radius?
I don't buy argument the light radius made it difficult to see all the targets and that some how made game play suck. I think that is a just an excuse so Blizzard doesn’t have to explain why they intentionally wanted to lighten it. It was said in one the interviews a few weeks back artists wanted their work more visible to showcase it; I think that is closer to the truth, and from their perspective I can understand that, but if it was that important to them they should have behind the scenes CD-ROM with all imagery, fans would love it.
Both D1 and D2 had many areas where you couldn’t see all the targets but you heard them or you saw glows coming from the room they were in. That added to the eeriness and made game play better. DOOM 3 used the same tactic (albeit first shooter) very effectively making it a scary game, but that's point it's an unlit dark room save the lone torch light around your character, you not supposed to all the targets, and it made it scarier because you weren't sure what all was in the room. I was bummed I could see the boss in the distance in the game play video, it would have been much foreboding to not know what it was until the fight. Things that go bump in the night are creepier than than things that you see go bump. Like Deckard Cain's guard yelled "What in the hells is that!?" it would have been more fitting if we didn't get see half of it walking in the lower levels before he yelled that; but rather only heard it.
Getting rid of the green ambient coloring light in favor of blue (I'm thinking somewhere between hex values 000099, 003366, or 000066) would give off a nice darker colder effect. The green they are using in the game play largely affects the mid-tone colors so I don't think you would lose any clarity of the characters attacking you.
By doing that and adding a light radius effect would not require darkening the backdrop very much, the overall effect would be a darker setting with a torch glow that should work fine. I refuse to believe they couldn’t make the light radius work in 3D, I don’t think they really tried. Of course this is my opinion but I have an art background and my IT career started in that area before moving on to nerdier technical work, so it’s hard for me believe all their reasons. 50,000 on a petition may not mean much, but it was enough to hit the news and get Blizzard to publically address it even though we fans largely got the bird.
It's a 3D game that means there will be action going on everywhere. In the foreground, background, ahead and in back of you.
Like the Assault Beast in the shadows, the wall collapsing on the mercenary etc etc.
The only way to get around this WITH a light radius would be to add torches or light sources on every destructible wall/table, and light up with things in the background and foreground happening, which would just end up looking kind of crappy with torches EVERYWHERE and you'd know if they lit a area that something would happen there.
Looking at what they have shown us so far, Diablo 3 is most certainly in grave danger of sucking, and that would be a terrible tragedy.
I've run a Neverwinter Nights PW for years (Hate the art, love the modability) and when Obsidian got a-hold of that franchise they asked us modders what we wanted for "Neverwinter Nights II". We posted pages and pages of polite suggestions along with quite a few pleas and what we got was a ten ton turd. They didn't listen, they didn't care.
I'm hoping Blizzard is a higher class act than that, but so far the screenies look a lot like Warcraft, which I honestly DETEST, and not much like the Diablo I love so much and have spent so many happy hours with (I've even played a monk!). I want more of the artistic opulence and horror that made the original versions (Diablo to DII-LOD) such fine wine; not an over-sweetened fizzy kid's drink like WoW.
My message to the game designers:
When you have a CLASSIC, study what makes it so. I think you'll find that Diablo players don't want cartoony over-sized weapons and pretty rainbows. Get with the original program! Give us the darkness and terror we crave!!!!
Diablo is an adult game for adults, and kids like it too. Please don't make Diablo 3 for kids and alientate your many, MANY adult customers... that would just be dumb.
I don't think 50,000 complaints really registers on Blizzards radar at all. I know if I had a customer base of several millions it would take a lot more than 50k to make me reconsider. Blizzard North ofshoot companies both flopping probably doesn't really send that many shivers down their spines either.
That is true. However you need to take account of all the people that do NOT go on forums. That do NOT search for petitions or would find one regarding diablo 3.
Bashiok has also confirmed that they take there fans input always, and always will. From what I have seen so far, every online poll, Or petition, Has always been about the change-side winning. (I haven't seen a let it stay poll/petition win once over the change side).
So if you take into understanding that not everyone goes on the forums or would find the petition, and then think about what it would really be like if everyone in the world gave there opinion... It might be a lot bigger than you actually think rather than just 50,000... Which in itself hugely outnumbers any other online petition to keep the game the way it is, or any poll out there.
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If you get personally attacked by letters through the internet its a good thing to always have a box of tissues and a band-aid around.
It would also be a bit difficult to get a realistic light radius coming from the player. With what are they using to create light? Valuable rings maybe? The glow from the enchanted weapons? What if you're just starting out? I think that, in this more realistic world, the direction to move away from an actual light radius and into an evolving and active environment with its own, and truer, light source (i.e. torches, bonfires, or outdoor light) would be better for the game. While I agree with the aspect of "Things that go bump in the night are creepier than than things that you see go bump." presented by Vegas Rage, I think that using the environment better to create that sense of the unknown is possible. Line of Sight would definitely work here.
This could impact, however, the aspect of Night and Day lighting concerns due to the fact that, in Diablo II, it was neigh impossible to see much of anything during the night save a faint outline and some noises. Unless the moon will always be full, a 24-hour feel may have to be removed from the final game to prevent any visual problems.
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------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
From what I have seen so far, every online poll, Or petition, Has always been about the change-side winning. (I haven't seen a let it stay poll/petition win once over the change side).
That's because if someone likes the way the game looks why would they get online and search for a poll or petition to keep the graphics the same.
If someone dislikes it, they're a lot more likely to try to find a way to change it.
What if it sucks? That depends on your definition of sucks. I like what I have seen so far, I really do. From what I have seen so far I personally see nothing that would lead me to put Diablo 3 in the sucks category. SO I will buy it, heck I would even buy it if it was released as is.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
That's because if someone likes the way the game looks why would they get online and search for a poll or petition to keep the graphics the same.
If someone dislikes it, they're a lot more likely to try to find a way to change it.
So what you just said basically is like this.
The people that like it the way it is seem like they do not care enough to defend their side at all? They like the game exactly the way it is, do not want change, yet dont care other people are trying to change it?
...
Your answer is pure speculation, AT BEST. Because you are not god, and do not know what other people would or would not do.
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If you get personally attacked by letters through the internet its a good thing to always have a box of tissues and a band-aid around.
The people that like it the way it is seem like they do not care enough to defend their side at all? They like the game exactly the way it is, do not want change, yet dont care other people are trying to change it?
...
Your answer is pure speculation, AT BEST. Because you are not god, and do not know what other people would or would not do.
This is why I try not to even answer people like you anymore, you're SO touchy.
I never claimed to be God. :rolleyes:
Someone watched the gameplay and says "AWESOME! I can't wait" and goes back to normal life.
Someone watches the gameplay and says "WTF! That looks like shit!" and searches for a petition.
This is why I try not to even answer people like you anymore, you're SO touchy.
I never claimed to be God. :rolleyes:
Someone watched the gameplay and says "AWESOME! I can't wait" and goes back to normal life.
Someone watches the gameplay and says "WTF! That looks like shit!" and searches for a petition.
Do you not see how that could go?
No I dont. I did not search for the petition either. I was excited about the game and went to forums, where I then discovered the petition and all the complaints. After reading them I agreed, and then signed the petition.
I did not even have an opinion about the game when I first got on the forums I was so excited. Well, that was my experience at least.
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If you get personally attacked by letters through the internet its a good thing to always have a box of tissues and a band-aid around.
I did not even have an opinion about the game when I first got on the forums I was so excited. Well, that was my experience at least.
Yeah but I'm sure not everyone that played Diablo or even watched the Gameplay trailer gets on forums or signs petitions.
I know at least 3 people that loved Diablo 2 but don't care for forums, that's all I'm saying. It would work the same if it was the other way around too.
The people that like it the way it is seem like they do not care enough to defend their side at all? They like the game exactly the way it is, do not want change, yet dont care other people are trying to change it?
...
Your answer is pure speculation, AT BEST. Because you are not god, and do not know what other people would or would not do.
He hit the nail on the head actually. Am I starting threads crying about how Blizzard should leave the game the way it is? No. Thats moronic. I don't have to convince Blizzard or anyone to do anything. The artwork is fine and they know it.
Now if I didn't like it and I was a pissed off teenager I would go sign up on every D3 forum, cry about it, sign a petition, etc. I've been a member of this board for a year, I didn't just sign up when they announced the game and started crying about every little detail. Have some patience and let them show you more.
He hit the nail on the head actually. Am I starting threads crying about how Blizzard should leave the game the way it is? No. Thats moronic. I don't have to convince Blizzard or anyone to do anything. The artwork is fine and they know it.
Now if I didn't like it and I was a pissed off teenager I would go sign up on every D3 forum, cry about it, sign a petition, etc. I've been a member of this board for a year, I didn't just sign up when they announced the game and started crying about every little detail. Have some patience and let them show you more.
But I thought the Majority of people liked DIablo 3 the way it is? Hm, I guess maybe .. NOT. If there was so many people (millions) It would be quite easy for the change polls to get outnumbered. Or the (Keep it like it is petition). Would you not think so>? I rest my case, I'm done here folks. Not going to post another thread and start a fight.
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If you get personally attacked by letters through the internet its a good thing to always have a box of tissues and a band-aid around.
Like I said a lot of people might of played D2 and liked it and want to play D3 but they're not so big of fans that they want to get on forums like me and you.
So they saw the video thought cool D3, and that was that. I imagine they check the main site for updates every week or so but not as often as we forum goers do.
It's not like I'm making this up either, I do that with a lot of games. Check the main sites every week or so to see if there is a new patch that's interesting etc etc.
Like I said a lot of people might of played D2 and liked it and want to play D3 but they're not so big of fans that they want to get on forums like me and you.
So they saw the video thought cool D3, and that was that. I imagine they check the main site for updates every week or so but not as often as we forum goers do.
It's not like I'm making this up either, I do that with a lot of games. Check the main sites every week or so to see if there is a new patch that's interesting etc etc.
I am in the same boat. I have few co-workers who were pretty stoked about Diablo III. They aren't really forum dwellers though and are not what you would call hardcore gamers.
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That sounds like the political infighting I suspected took place leading to Blizzard North losing it's baby and Blizzard Irvine getting their grubby little paws on it. Mike Huang the ex-Blizzard North employee who spoke out a month ago said they debated frequently with Irvine over direction. Irvine obviously won the spat with the executives and got to have their way. It's been my experience egos and power is more a factor in political battles and less to do with what is best for the customer.
Having worked in IT for many years myself I have learned it is bad to try and have a technical debate in front of non-technical executives. The debate is usually over their head and in the end it boils down to friendship or who handled themselves best in the debate. Unfortunately winning a political battle doesn't equate to being right, frequently it's the exact opposite. Reading Huang's comments it seems to me B-North knew their fan base better and tried to cater to us, B-Irvine wanted something new to sink it's teeth into and went after Diablo and are now changing the look and feel to a more WOW environment.
Since the direction is locked in stone now and time is money, the Irvine people now are going out of their way to try and sell the Diablo fan base on their new way of thinking such as producer Keith Lee and Jay Wilson has done letting us know it’s too late to change. I don't think Irvine expected there to be this kind of backlash from the fan base or concern that it would matter if Blizzard North or Irvine made the game. Obviously they were wrong and now perhaps are understanding they should have listened to B-North a little closer, hind site is 20/20 and vindication sadly always comes at the expense of people not listening to others.
Too bad
You are right about the 50,000 complaints. Of course there are likely a lot more Diablo fans right now who are not aware of D3 or it's look, not everyone follows gaming close. If it weren’t for the headline on google news I wouldn’t have known. Final judgment will be reserved after it’s released.
I think that is a load of foo by an art director trying to defend their altered course about it becoming “difficult to see what was actually going on and that the light radius from previous games wasn't working in 3D." One thing they could do out the gate to improve the dungeon scenes would be to drop the green tint and move to a darker blue.
It would give a colder feeling right out of the gate, like any stone unlit underground place would be and targets wouldn’t be any more difficult to track by that change alone. Blizzard will have it's way but fans won't get over it, this will be the talk for some time to come.
So how would removing the green glow and replacing it with a blue glow do anything for the light radius?
Both D1 and D2 had many areas where you couldn’t see all the targets but you heard them or you saw glows coming from the room they were in. That added to the eeriness and made game play better. DOOM 3 used the same tactic (albeit first shooter) very effectively making it a scary game, but that's point it's an unlit dark room save the lone torch light around your character, you not supposed to all the targets, and it made it scarier because you weren't sure what all was in the room. I was bummed I could see the boss in the distance in the game play video, it would have been much foreboding to not know what it was until the fight. Things that go bump in the night are creepier than than things that you see go bump. Like Deckard Cain's guard yelled "What in the hells is that!?" it would have been more fitting if we didn't get see half of it walking in the lower levels before he yelled that; but rather only heard it.
Getting rid of the green ambient coloring light in favor of blue (I'm thinking somewhere between hex values 000099, 003366, or 000066) would give off a nice darker colder effect. The green they are using in the game play largely affects the mid-tone colors so I don't think you would lose any clarity of the characters attacking you.
By doing that and adding a light radius effect would not require darkening the backdrop very much, the overall effect would be a darker setting with a torch glow that should work fine. I refuse to believe they couldn’t make the light radius work in 3D, I don’t think they really tried. Of course this is my opinion but I have an art background and my IT career started in that area before moving on to nerdier technical work, so it’s hard for me believe all their reasons. 50,000 on a petition may not mean much, but it was enough to hit the news and get Blizzard to publically address it even though we fans largely got the bird.
It's a 3D game that means there will be action going on everywhere. In the foreground, background, ahead and in back of you.
Like the Assault Beast in the shadows, the wall collapsing on the mercenary etc etc.
The only way to get around this WITH a light radius would be to add torches or light sources on every destructible wall/table, and light up with things in the background and foreground happening, which would just end up looking kind of crappy with torches EVERYWHERE and you'd know if they lit a area that something would happen there.
I've run a Neverwinter Nights PW for years (Hate the art, love the modability) and when Obsidian got a-hold of that franchise they asked us modders what we wanted for "Neverwinter Nights II". We posted pages and pages of polite suggestions along with quite a few pleas and what we got was a ten ton turd. They didn't listen, they didn't care.
I'm hoping Blizzard is a higher class act than that, but so far the screenies look a lot like Warcraft, which I honestly DETEST, and not much like the Diablo I love so much and have spent so many happy hours with (I've even played a monk!). I want more of the artistic opulence and horror that made the original versions (Diablo to DII-LOD) such fine wine; not an over-sweetened fizzy kid's drink like WoW.
My message to the game designers:
When you have a CLASSIC, study what makes it so. I think you'll find that Diablo players don't want cartoony over-sized weapons and pretty rainbows. Get with the original program! Give us the darkness and terror we crave!!!!
Diablo is an adult game for adults, and kids like it too. Please don't make Diablo 3 for kids and alientate your many, MANY adult customers... that would just be dumb.
That is true. However you need to take account of all the people that do NOT go on forums. That do NOT search for petitions or would find one regarding diablo 3.
Bashiok has also confirmed that they take there fans input always, and always will. From what I have seen so far, every online poll, Or petition, Has always been about the change-side winning. (I haven't seen a let it stay poll/petition win once over the change side).
So if you take into understanding that not everyone goes on the forums or would find the petition, and then think about what it would really be like if everyone in the world gave there opinion... It might be a lot bigger than you actually think rather than just 50,000... Which in itself hugely outnumbers any other online petition to keep the game the way it is, or any poll out there.
This could impact, however, the aspect of Night and Day lighting concerns due to the fact that, in Diablo II, it was neigh impossible to see much of anything during the night save a faint outline and some noises. Unless the moon will always be full, a 24-hour feel may have to be removed from the final game to prevent any visual problems.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
That's because if someone likes the way the game looks why would they get online and search for a poll or petition to keep the graphics the same.
If someone dislikes it, they're a lot more likely to try to find a way to change it.
So what you just said basically is like this.
The people that like it the way it is seem like they do not care enough to defend their side at all? They like the game exactly the way it is, do not want change, yet dont care other people are trying to change it?
...
Your answer is pure speculation, AT BEST. Because you are not god, and do not know what other people would or would not do.
This is why I try not to even answer people like you anymore, you're SO touchy.
I never claimed to be God. :rolleyes:
Someone watched the gameplay and says "AWESOME! I can't wait" and goes back to normal life.
Someone watches the gameplay and says "WTF! That looks like shit!" and searches for a petition.
Do you not see how that could go?
No I dont. I did not search for the petition either. I was excited about the game and went to forums, where I then discovered the petition and all the complaints. After reading them I agreed, and then signed the petition.
I did not even have an opinion about the game when I first got on the forums I was so excited. Well, that was my experience at least.
Yeah but I'm sure not everyone that played Diablo or even watched the Gameplay trailer gets on forums or signs petitions.
I know at least 3 people that loved Diablo 2 but don't care for forums, that's all I'm saying. It would work the same if it was the other way around too.
He hit the nail on the head actually. Am I starting threads crying about how Blizzard should leave the game the way it is? No. Thats moronic. I don't have to convince Blizzard or anyone to do anything. The artwork is fine and they know it.
Now if I didn't like it and I was a pissed off teenager I would go sign up on every D3 forum, cry about it, sign a petition, etc. I've been a member of this board for a year, I didn't just sign up when they announced the game and started crying about every little detail. Have some patience and let them show you more.
But I thought the Majority of people liked DIablo 3 the way it is? Hm, I guess maybe .. NOT. If there was so many people (millions) It would be quite easy for the change polls to get outnumbered. Or the (Keep it like it is petition). Would you not think so>? I rest my case, I'm done here folks. Not going to post another thread and start a fight.
No I wouldn't. Sorry.
Like I said a lot of people might of played D2 and liked it and want to play D3 but they're not so big of fans that they want to get on forums like me and you.
So they saw the video thought cool D3, and that was that. I imagine they check the main site for updates every week or so but not as often as we forum goers do.
It's not like I'm making this up either, I do that with a lot of games. Check the main sites every week or so to see if there is a new patch that's interesting etc etc.
I am in the same boat. I have few co-workers who were pretty stoked about Diablo III. They aren't really forum dwellers though and are not what you would call hardcore gamers.