The amount of incoming damage in Greater Rift 70 and above has been reduced.
The amount of Experience granted in Greater Rift 70 and above has been reduced.
I wanted to find out more about these changes and did some testing. Here are my thoughts on what this will mean for the upcoming Season. I also made a video where I go over the numbers and explain my thoughts in more detail. Enjoy!
Some interesting facts:
The reduced scaling starts at Tier 71, not 70.
New Dmg multiplier is 2.338% (doubling every 30 tiers) instead of 7.178% (doubling every 10 tiers).
New XP multiplier is 5% (doubling every 14.2 tiers) instead of 8% (doubling every 9 tiers).
Some numbers:
Tier 80: -37.00% Dmg, -24.55% XP
Tier 90: -60.31% Dmg, -43.07% XP
Tier 100: -75.00% Dmg, -57.05% XP
Tier 110: -84.25% Dmg, -67.59% XP
Tier 120: -90.08% Dmg, -75.55% XP
Tier 130: -93.75% Dmg, -81.55% XP
Tier 140: -96.06% Dmg, -86.08% XP
Tier 150: -97.52% Dmg, -89.50% XP
What this means for solo and group play: We can play much more offensively now, possibly dropping one or even two supports in 4man. I'm excited to see how this will change the group meta, especially if they also manage to fix the lags. This will also significantly impact solo play where stacking defensive buffs is usually not an option.
What this means for XP farming: New XP values will be significantly lower, probably around half of what people are doing now; top groups can do ~1.8t/h now and maybe 700-900b/h next patch. Top solo players can probably reach 300-400b/h and do around the same next patch. This means the divide between solo and group play will go from ~5x times more to only ~double. It also means that nonseason players will have a hard time catching up as this is the first time that we actually get less experience than during the previous season. Top paragon players will probably end up at slightly higher levels than what we have seen during season 4. This also means that Caldesann's Despair will have a slightly bigger impact and that boss runs are relatively slightly more incentivized over no boss runs, however I think that adding a little more XP to the RG kill or closing rewards would be necessary to completely rule out no boss runs (which are not really enjoyable and counterintuitive, too).
Dmg Table
Tier
Old Dmg
New Dmg
Diff (%)
70
57.662,39
57.662,39
0,00
71
61.801,02
59.010,18
4,52
72
66.236,69
60.389,48
8,83
73
70.990,73
61.801,02
12,94
74
76.085,98
63.245,55
16,88
75
81.546,93
64.723,84
20,63
76
87.399,84
66.236,69
24,21
77
93.672,83
67.784,90
27,64
78
100.396,05
69.369,30
30,90
79
107.601,82
70.990,73
34,02
80
115.324,78
72.650,06
37,00
81
123.602,04
74.348,17
39,85
82
132.473,39
76.085,98
42,57
83
141.981,46
77.864,41
45,16
84
152.171,96
79.684,40
47,64
85
163.093,87
81.546,93
50,00
86
174.799,68
83.453,00
52,26
87
187.345,66
85.403,62
54,41
88
200.792,10
87.399,84
56,47
89
215.203,65
89.442,71
58,44
90
230.649,56
91.533,34
60,31
91
247.204,08
93.672,83
62,11
92
264.946,77
95.862,33
63,82
93
283.962,92
98.103,00
65,45
94
304.343,92
100.396,05
67,01
95
326.187,74
102.742,70
68,50
96
349.599,36
105.144,20
69,92
97
374.691,32
107.601,82
71,28
98
401.584,21
110.116,90
72,58
99
430.407,30
112.690,76
73,82
100
461.299,12
115.324,78
75,00
101
494.408,16
118.020,37
76,13
102
529.893,54
120.778,96
77,21
103
567.925,84
123.602,04
78,24
104
608.687,84
126.491,10
79,22
105
652.375,47
129.447,69
80,16
106
699.198,72
132.473,39
81,05
107
749.382,63
135.569,80
81,91
108
803.168,42
138.738,60
82,73
109
860.814,60
141.981,46
83,51
110
922.598,24
145.300,12
84,25
111
988.816,31
148.696,35
84,96
112
1.059.787,08
152.171,96
85,64
113
1.135.851,67
155.728,81
86,29
114
1.217.375,68
159.368,80
86,91
115
1.304.750,95
163.093,87
87,50
116
1.398.397,44
166.906,01
88,06
117
1.498.765,27
170.807,25
88,60
118
1.606.336,84
174.799,68
89,12
119
1.721.629,20
178.885,43
89,61
120
1.845.196,48
183.066,68
90,08
121
1.977.632,63
187.345,66
90,53
122
2.119.574,17
191.724,66
90,95
123
2.271.703,34
196.206,01
91,36
124
2.434.751,36
200.792,10
91,75
125
2.609.501,89
205.485,40
92,13
126
2.796.794,88
210.288,39
92,48
127
2.997.530,53
215.203,65
92,82
128
3.212.673,68
220.233,80
93,14
129
3.443.258,39
225.381,52
93,45
130
3.690.392,97
230.649,56
93,75
131
3.955.265,25
236.040,74
94,03
132
4.239.148,33
241.557,93
94,30
133
4.543.406,69
247.204,08
94,56
134
4.869.502,72
252.982,20
94,80
135
5.219.003,79
258.895,38
95,04
136
5.593.589,76
264.946,77
95,26
137
5.995.061,07
271.139,61
95,48
138
6.425.347,36
277.477,20
95,68
139
6.886.516,78
283.962,92
95,88
140
7.380.785,94
290.600,24
96,06
141
7.910.530,50
297.392,70
96,24
142
8.478.296,67
304.343,92
96,41
143
9.086.813,37
311.457,62
96,57
144
9.739.005,43
318.737,60
96,73
145
10.438.007,57
326.187,74
96,88
146
11.187.179,52
333.812,01
97,02
147
11.990.122,13
341.614,50
97,15
148
12.850.694,71
349.599,36
97,28
149
13.773.033,57
357.770,86
97,40
150
14.761.571,88
366.133,36
97,52
XP Table
Tier
Old XP
New XP
Diff (%)
70
20.241,33
20.241,33
0,00
71
21.860,64
21.253,40
2,78
72
23.609,49
22.316,07
5,48
73
25.498,25
23.431,87
8,10
74
27.538,11
24.603,47
10,66
75
29.741,16
25.833,64
13,14
76
32.120,45
27.125,32
15,55
77
34.690,09
28.481,59
17,90
78
37.465,30
29.905,67
20,18
79
40.462,52
31.400,95
22,39
80
43.699,52
32.971,00
24,55
81
47.195,48
34.619,55
26,65
82
50.971,12
36.350,53
28,68
83
55.048,81
38.168,05
30,67
84
59.452,72
40.076,46
32,59
85
64.208,93
42.080,28
34,46
86
69.345,65
44.184,29
36,28
87
74.893,30
46.393,51
38,05
88
80.884,76
48.713,18
39,77
89
87.355,55
51.148,84
41,45
90
94.343,99
53.706,28
43,07
91
101.891,51
56.391,60
44,66
92
110.042,83
59.211,18
46,19
93
118.846,26
62.171,74
47,69
94
128.353,96
65.280,32
49,14
95
138.622,27
68.544,34
50,55
96
149.712,05
71.971,56
51,93
97
161.689,02
75.570,14
53,26
98
174.624,14
79.348,64
54,56
99
188.594,07
83.316,07
55,82
100
203.681,60
87.481,88
57,05
101
219.976,13
91.855,97
58,24
102
237.574,22
96.448,77
59,40
103
256.580,15
101.271,21
60,53
104
277.106,57
106.334,77
61,63
105
299.275,09
111.651,51
62,69
106
323.217,10
117.234,08
63,73
107
349.074,47
123.095,79
64,74
108
377.000,42
129.250,58
65,72
109
407.160,46
135.713,11
66,67
110
439.733,29
142.498,76
67,59
111
474.911,96
149.623,70
68,49
112
512.904,91
157.104,89
69,37
113
553.937,31
164.960,13
70,22
114
598.252,29
173.208,14
71,05
115
646.112,47
181.868,54
71,85
116
697.801,47
190.961,97
72,63
117
753.625,59
200.510,07
73,39
118
813.915,64
210.535,57
74,13
119
879.028,89
221.062,35
74,85
120
949.351,20
232.115,47
75,55
121
1.025.299,29
243.721,24
76,23
122
1.107.323,24
255.907,30
76,89
123
1.195.909,10
268.702,67
77,53
124
1.291.581,82
282.137,80
78,16
125
1.394.908,37
296.244,69
78,76
126
1.506.501,04
311.056,93
79,35
127
1.627.021,12
326.609,77
79,93
128
1.757.182,81
342.940,26
80,48
129
1.897.757,44
360.087,27
81,03
130
2.049.578,03
378.091,64
81,55
131
2.213.544,28
396.996,22
82,07
132
2.390.627,82
416.846,03
82,56
133
2.581.878,04
437.688,33
83,05
134
2.788.428,29
459.572,75
83,52
135
3.011.502,55
482.551,39
83,98
136
3.252.422,75
506.678,96
84,42
137
3.512.616,57
532.012,90
84,85
138
3.793.625,90
558.613,55
85,27
139
4.097.115,97
586.544,23
85,68
140
4.424.885,25
615.871,44
86,08
141
4.778.876,07
646.665,01
86,47
142
5.161.186,16
678.998,26
86,84
143
5.574.081,05
712.948,17
87,21
144
6.020.007,53
748.595,58
87,56
145
6.501.608,13
786.025,36
87,91
146
7.021.736,79
825.326,63
88,25
147
7.583.475,73
866.592,96
88,57
148
8.190.153,79
909.922,61
88,89
149
8.845.366,09
955.418,74
89,20
150
9.552.995,38
1.003.189,68
89,50
I have also compiled the full tables for Dmg and XP scaling in patch 2.4 + 2.4.1, but unfortunately I can't figure out how to make proper tables on Diablofans. You can find the full lists in my Reddit post here.
Great stuff, awesome! I was curious about that as well. It might also be interesting to highlight what rift is the equivalent to season 5 incoming damage/XP. For example, based on your Reddit table it looks like GR124 in S6 will require the same toughness as a GR88 in S5 - pretty amazing "nerf"! And to get the same XP as on GR100 you need to run GR117.
Given the powercreep in terms of DPS, we've seen the top level raise by about 15-20 GRs every season; S6 should be absolutely no exception, especially given how much less toughness we need. For example, right now almost no one running 95+ is wearing even Esoteric anymore for solo, which I think it pretty exciting. In the end, I therefore assume that effective XP gain will be about the same (I'd be more than happy to be wronged and XP gain would be a net loss, as I still think paragon is too rewarding).
As for the tables, here's the code:
[table]Apples | Oranges | Fluff
Green | Fruit | Hello, world.[/table]
Great stuff. But to be honest, I'll be happy if they finally manage to balance out classes and sets with regards to DPS, at least within a margin of 4-5 Grifts. Impossible dream?!?
Great stuff, awesome! I was curious about that as well. It might also be interesting to highlight what rift is the equivalent to season 5 incoming damage/XP. For example, based on your Reddit table it looks like GR124 in S6 will require the same toughness as a GR88 in S5 - pretty amazing "nerf"! And to get the same XP as on GR100 you need to run GR117.
Given the powercreep in terms of DPS, we've seen the top level raise by about 15-20 GRs every season; S6 should be absolutely no exception, especially given how much less toughness we need. For example, right now almost no one running 95+ is wearing even Esoteric anymore for solo, which I think it pretty exciting. In the end, I therefore assume that effective XP gain will be about the same (I'd be more than happy to be wronged and XP gain would be a net loss, as I still think paragon is too rewarding).
Thanks, pretty amazing that the tables work almost the same here as they do on Reddit, only required 1-2 min of extra formatting. About your remaining points, I don't think we will see the 15-20 GR rise of the previous seasons next time, ET Wiz was way stronger than what the devs anticipated and they are trying to contain the power creep a little now. I guess we are supposed to clear around the same tiers in 4man than we do now, maybe a little higher (up to +5, so maybe tier 120 end of S6). I can tell you already that there will be no DH build that will be even close to that in dps but maybe 10 tiers below. Unless some extremely broken thing like ET Wiz 2.0 slips through again I don't see that happening, the balance would be off so much again and this is definitely the last thing the devs want in a patch that doesn't bring content and is exclusively about balancing.
Actually, there is one thing that I can think of which could make us clear +15 tiers but so far I couldn't test if it still works on the PTR; I hope not.
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
1) GR151 is currently the maximum, you wouldn't be able to run any higher (people tried this on 2.4 PTR with paragon 10000).
2) The reason we're running triple support at the moment is because it's the only way to stay alive. The barb adds virtually no damage buffs, he's almost exclusively there for toughness and pulling (well and some minor other things. so please don't start nitpicking - but they're not the main reason we're taking the barb with us). By nerfing the incoming damage that significantly, you can ditch some of the toughness buffing classes, gems, and items, and focus more on damage. Hint: that's good for people that don't like support, in particular triple support metas.
3) Toughness requirements have been reduced, the damage required remains unchanged. And as Wudijo said, the wizard is horribly broken this season and is the primary reason why we're able to reach GR100+, and why some groups even reach 110+. Under his assumption that there's no other damage spec which is as broken as the wizard, effective group damage in Season 6 will be significantly lower, and therefore we need all available transitions from toughness to damage to even get back to GR110+ power levels.
It's a matter of how well they balance the final PTR power levels. Wudijo is under the assumption that next season might be relatively better balanced and there should be no broken build; that's a fair bet as Blizzard seems to focus exclusively on balancing rather than introducing new mechanics this season. As he does way more testing than I do, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - and if what he says is true, we WILL see lower paragon at the end of season 6 than at the end of season 5. But all in all, rest assured that we won't see a GR165 clear, and at this point I'd even predict that we don't have another triple support season (unless something horribly broken surfaces after the PTR ends).
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
How do you plan on killing gr 165 with 3 support in season6?
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
How do you plan on killing gr 165 with 3 support in season6?
Not sure you need to, if you read the chart and simply match damage done to xp gained, they have actually made it easier to play higher levels. We are talking paragon farming here for the most part, are we not?
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
1) GR151 is currently the maximum, you wouldn't be able to run any higher (people tried this on 2.4 PTR with paragon 10000).
2) The reason we're running triple support at the moment is because it's the only way to stay alive. The barb adds virtually no damage buffs, he's almost exclusively there for toughness and pulling (well and some minor other things. so please don't start nitpicking - but they're not the main reason we're taking the barb with us). By nerfing the incoming damage that significantly, you can ditch some of the toughness buffing classes, gems, and items, and focus more on damage. Hint: that's good for people that don't like support, in particular triple support metas.
3) Toughness requirements have been reduced, the damage required remains unchanged. And as Wudijo said, the wizard is horribly broken this season and is the primary reason why we're able to reach GR100+, and why some groups even reach 110+. Under his assumption that there's no other damage spec which is as broken as the wizard, effective group damage in Season 6 will be significantly lower, and therefore we need all available transitions from toughness to damage to even get back to GR110+ power levels.
It's a matter of how well they balance the final PTR power levels. Wudijo is under the assumption that next season might be relatively better balanced and there should be no broken build; that's a fair bet as Blizzard seems to focus exclusively on balancing rather than introducing new mechanics this season. As he does way more testing than I do, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - and if what he says is true, we WILL see lower paragon at the end of season 6 than at the end of season 5. But all in all, rest assured that we won't see a GR165 clear, and at this point I'd even predict that we don't have another triple support season (unless something horribly broken surfaces after the PTR ends).
Well said, but a few things. ( I did not know about 151 max, so thanks for that )
1- enemy damage is going down, so higher toughness will not be needed, in fact lower toughness can get you by. Based on CURRENT Power Creep, the average 4 man group doing "trash" clears can run between GR75-85. According to the table, this equates to GR115 new damage received. Next if we take GR115 and compare that XP to GR85 XP we have 161k for GR100 new data compared to 64k GR85 old data. This means the same power creep will get 4 DPS MORE XP THAN BEFORE.
I think that is a good thing personally. However, when you add simply 1 support, you are going to likely be able to run even higher trash runs.
2- This leads me to a new though, could they potentially link xp gains to actually killing the guardian within the 15 minute timer? If not, xp gains are going to at the least triple according to this new data, and I am willing to wager people will still prefer the minimum threshold of 1-2 support instead of 4 dps groups.
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
How do you plan on killing gr 165 with 3 support in season6?
Not sure you need to, if you read the chart and simply match damage done to xp gained, they have actually made it easier to play higher levels. We are talking paragon farming here for the most part, are we not?
Y, but its pretty hard to open gr151 if you can only complete gr120
And exp/h would plummet if it takes forever to kill the rift.
Just remember that monster HP is same. And even if we get powercreep its doesn't seem like anything will even be close to ET wiz dmg.
Like the dps increase from WD in group now is crazy even if he doens't do any dmg.
Tried running with strong DH (20k dex, full AD, CC, CHD, Elemental dmg) and it would still go slower than having support WD.
So we might switch out supports, but real dmg might not go up.
@Demonmonger: Nothing has changed about mob HP scaling. Mobs still have 17% more HP on each level, so going up from GR100 to GR120 will be an increase of roughly 2000% - that's 20x more damage needed than before. Just doubling (or quadrupling) damage is not enough. At the same time, wizard twisters are nerfed, and the highest non-twister group I'm aware of are some mid-90 HC Crusader groups. Without twisters, we'd probably only see a few 100+ clears this season, and most people would farm 90. The set buffs for next season do not indicate an increase of 20x, not even 10x, it's more between 50% and 100% (which already means the damage is doubled). Add some new undiscovered builds to that, and then maybe GR110 or possibly even GR120 will be an option, but that already requires some crazy more DPS.
You seem to assume that the limit of what GR can be played is that where people can survive, but that's only partially true. If you watch people running GR110+, it takes pretty much perfect groups of mobs to even kill anything. And that's with the broken wizard meta, and two support classes essentially doubling the wizard's damage. Yes, the XP you receive at GR150 is crazy, but we won't see this next season, not even close to it. Somehow you're neglecting the fact that the HP scaling is even more insane than damage or XP, and that's going to be the limiting factor (read: how much damage can the group deal). And that limit, for all we know, might be in the 110s, maybe early 120s. To reach GR130, Blizzard would have to simply add a zero to all damage numbers on all the sets, for example 400,000% Impale on Shadow's 6 piece
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
Is terrible for u and all the emo kids who doesn`t accept the fact that diablo is diablo, game based of progression AKA para, u dont like it, ok fine, go and play my little pony or something else, stop cry like a 6 yo child. Diablo is great as it is.
No need to be like that.
And progression is not "+5 main stat" so gimme a break man, be real!
It is. Why you people allways complains that paragonlevels cannot be used as progression? If it were up to you guys we would not have paragon points. You know what? It would take 1 month to get all gear and hit the brick wall, and then there would be absolutely no point playing.
At least para points gives some progression, and to be frank, the paragon power is not THAT great. If it was like 20 levels difference of high-low para, sure, but it's like... what 3-5? It's nothing! Jeezes, let me enjoy playing and hunt those para levels. It's more fun than farming months for that one item that never drops.
There will always be complaints because there will always be a scapegoat. Right now it's paragon. Let's just assume Blizzard caps Paragon at 1000 for grifts. Those with more time will have higher gems. Ok, cool. Let's cap gems at 100. Those with more time will fish for the best possible grift. Ok, let's standardize grifts, so it's always the same layout per grift level. Those with more time will minmax the best routes in those standardized maps and still beat you.
Nothing changed, except that you completely gutted the endgame, so that it becomes boring after a few runs. Those with time will always win because even without progress advantages, they'll have the practice and knowledge. It's the same with pro sports. You can't compete with a pro football player even if you're super talented. He has more practice, more knowledge. He is trained to be in a perfect form (which is basically a higher paragonlevel )
That's why there are leagues in professional sports, there are even amateur leagues for those sports. Ppl who has no time are not competing against professionals. That's why I think there should be a paragon league system so people who have low paragons can compete against each other. That would give ppl like me more incentive to play. There could be brackets for every 1000 paragon so we could compare our ability to play the game against the people who invested the same amount of time to the game.
There will always be complaints because there will always be a scapegoat. Right now it's paragon. Let's just assume Blizzard caps Paragon at 1000 for grifts. Those with more time will have higher gems. Ok, cool. Let's cap gems at 100. Those with more time will fish for the best possible grift. Ok, let's standardize grifts, so it's always the same layout per grift level. Those with more time will minmax the best routes in those standardized maps and still beat you.
Nothing changed, except that you completely gutted the endgame, so that it becomes boring after a few runs. Those with time will always win because even without progress advantages, they'll have the practice and knowledge. It's the same with pro sports. You can't compete with a pro football player even if you're super talented. He has more practice, more knowledge. He is trained to be in a perfect form (which is basically a higher paragonlevel )
That's why there are leagues in professional sports, there are even amateur leagues for those sports. Ppl who has no time are not competing against professionals. That's why I think there should be a paragon league system so people who have low paragons can compete against each other. That would give ppl like me more incentive to play. There could be brackets for every 1000 paragon so we could compare our ability to play the game against the people who invested the same amount of time to the game.
Personally, I think paragon leagues are an excellent idea. Unfortunately, I fear that such a system is not high on Blizzard's priority list.
There is no reason to abolish the current "overall" paragon listings as ppl can be top 1000 overall without being 3k paragon. The league system would live next to current leaderboards but with leageus in it , we could see where we are comparing to other ppl who invested the same amount of time into the game.
Also , leaderboards takes the paragon level of the account when the GR is completed so it wouldnt abolish your last GR ranking when you level up from 999 to 1000. Only thing that would do that your next record would be in 1001-2000 rankings PLUS overall leaderboards.
There will always be complaints because there will always be a scapegoat. Right now it's paragon. Let's just assume Blizzard caps Paragon at 1000 for grifts. Those with more time will have higher gems. Ok, cool. Let's cap gems at 100. Those with more time will fish for the best possible grift. Ok, let's standardize grifts, so it's always the same layout per grift level. Those with more time will minmax the best routes in those standardized maps and still beat you.
Nothing changed, except that you completely gutted the endgame, so that it becomes boring after a few runs. Those with time will always win because even without progress advantages, they'll have the practice and knowledge. It's the same with pro sports. You can't compete with a pro football player even if you're super talented. He has more practice, more knowledge. He is trained to be in a perfect form (which is basically a higher paragonlevel )
That's why there are leagues in professional sports, there are even amateur leagues for those sports. Ppl who has no time are not competing against professionals. That's why I think there should be a paragon league system so people who have low paragons can compete against each other. That would give ppl like me more incentive to play. There could be brackets for every 1000 paragon so we could compare our ability to play the game against the people who invested the same amount of time to the game.
This is a bad comparison for what the topic is about.
Those that are in the D-league of basketball are not there cause of lack of time its lack of talent and development hench the name of the league.
Trying to compare someones play time verses yours isnt going to work either.I might be able to make my time more efficient than you,so i will gain more than you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The amount of incoming damage in Greater Rift 70 and above has been reduced.
The amount of Experience granted in Greater Rift 70 and above has been reduced.
I wanted to find out more about these changes and did some testing. Here are my thoughts on what this will mean for the upcoming Season. I also made a video where I go over the numbers and explain my thoughts in more detail. Enjoy!
Some interesting facts:
Some numbers:
What this means for solo and group play: We can play much more offensively now, possibly dropping one or even two supports in 4man. I'm excited to see how this will change the group meta, especially if they also manage to fix the lags. This will also significantly impact solo play where stacking defensive buffs is usually not an option.
What this means for XP farming: New XP values will be significantly lower, probably around half of what people are doing now; top groups can do ~1.8t/h now and maybe 700-900b/h next patch. Top solo players can probably reach 300-400b/h and do around the same next patch. This means the divide between solo and group play will go from ~5x times more to only ~double. It also means that nonseason players will have a hard time catching up as this is the first time that we actually get less experience than during the previous season. Top paragon players will probably end up at slightly higher levels than what we have seen during season 4. This also means that Caldesann's Despair will have a slightly bigger impact and that boss runs are relatively slightly more incentivized over no boss runs, however I think that adding a little more XP to the RG kill or closing rewards would be necessary to completely rule out no boss runs (which are not really enjoyable and counterintuitive, too).
Dmg Table
XP Table
I have also compiled the full tables for Dmg and XP scaling in patch 2.4 + 2.4.1, but unfortunately I can't figure out how to make proper tables on Diablofans. You can find the full lists in my Reddit post here.
Profile | Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Recruitment: Zero Empathy are looking for the best players in Europe
Given the powercreep in terms of DPS, we've seen the top level raise by about 15-20 GRs every season; S6 should be absolutely no exception, especially given how much less toughness we need. For example, right now almost no one running 95+ is wearing even Esoteric anymore for solo, which I think it pretty exciting. In the end, I therefore assume that effective XP gain will be about the same (I'd be more than happy to be wronged and XP gain would be a net loss, as I still think paragon is too rewarding).
As for the tables, here's the code:
Looks like this:
Great stuff. But to be honest, I'll be happy if they finally manage to balance out classes and sets with regards to DPS, at least within a margin of 4-5 Grifts. Impossible dream?!?
Thanks, pretty amazing that the tables work almost the same here as they do on Reddit, only required 1-2 min of extra formatting. About your remaining points, I don't think we will see the 15-20 GR rise of the previous seasons next time, ET Wiz was way stronger than what the devs anticipated and they are trying to contain the power creep a little now. I guess we are supposed to clear around the same tiers in 4man than we do now, maybe a little higher (up to +5, so maybe tier 120 end of S6). I can tell you already that there will be no DH build that will be even close to that in dps but maybe 10 tiers below. Unless some extremely broken thing like ET Wiz 2.0 slips through again I don't see that happening, the balance would be off so much again and this is definitely the last thing the devs want in a patch that doesn't bring content and is exclusively about balancing.
Actually, there is one thing that I can think of which could make us clear +15 tiers but so far I couldn't test if it still works on the PTR; I hope not.
Profile | Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Recruitment: Zero Empathy are looking for the best players in Europe
Very nice post Wudijo!
Am I the only one who sees the obvious here?
Unless they limit support to 1 per party somehow, people can still do 2 support or 3 support, and based on these new numbers will be able to run GR165 or so, which actually gives 1750% more xp than the currently ran GR100 speed farms.....
This is terrible news.
nice to know. thx
2) The reason we're running triple support at the moment is because it's the only way to stay alive. The barb adds virtually no damage buffs, he's almost exclusively there for toughness and pulling (well and some minor other things. so please don't start nitpicking - but they're not the main reason we're taking the barb with us). By nerfing the incoming damage that significantly, you can ditch some of the toughness buffing classes, gems, and items, and focus more on damage. Hint: that's good for people that don't like support, in particular triple support metas.
3) Toughness requirements have been reduced, the damage required remains unchanged. And as Wudijo said, the wizard is horribly broken this season and is the primary reason why we're able to reach GR100+, and why some groups even reach 110+. Under his assumption that there's no other damage spec which is as broken as the wizard, effective group damage in Season 6 will be significantly lower, and therefore we need all available transitions from toughness to damage to even get back to GR110+ power levels.
It's a matter of how well they balance the final PTR power levels. Wudijo is under the assumption that next season might be relatively better balanced and there should be no broken build; that's a fair bet as Blizzard seems to focus exclusively on balancing rather than introducing new mechanics this season. As he does way more testing than I do, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - and if what he says is true, we WILL see lower paragon at the end of season 6 than at the end of season 5. But all in all, rest assured that we won't see a GR165 clear, and at this point I'd even predict that we don't have another triple support season (unless something horribly broken surfaces after the PTR ends).
1- enemy damage is going down, so higher toughness will not be needed, in fact lower toughness can get you by. Based on CURRENT Power Creep, the average 4 man group doing "trash" clears can run between GR75-85. According to the table, this equates to GR115 new damage received. Next if we take GR115 and compare that XP to GR85 XP we have 161k for GR100 new data compared to 64k GR85 old data. This means the same power creep will get 4 DPS MORE XP THAN BEFORE.
I think that is a good thing personally. However, when you add simply 1 support, you are going to likely be able to run even higher trash runs.
2- This leads me to a new though, could they potentially link xp gains to actually killing the guardian within the 15 minute timer? If not, xp gains are going to at the least triple according to this new data, and I am willing to wager people will still prefer the minimum threshold of 1-2 support instead of 4 dps groups.
And exp/h would plummet if it takes forever to kill the rift.
Just remember that monster HP is same. And even if we get powercreep its doesn't seem like anything will even be close to ET wiz dmg.
Like the dps increase from WD in group now is crazy even if he doens't do any dmg.
Tried running with strong DH (20k dex, full AD, CC, CHD, Elemental dmg) and it would still go slower than having support WD.
So we might switch out supports, but real dmg might not go up.
@Demonmonger: Nothing has changed about mob HP scaling. Mobs still have 17% more HP on each level, so going up from GR100 to GR120 will be an increase of roughly 2000% - that's 20x more damage needed than before. Just doubling (or quadrupling) damage is not enough. At the same time, wizard twisters are nerfed, and the highest non-twister group I'm aware of are some mid-90 HC Crusader groups. Without twisters, we'd probably only see a few 100+ clears this season, and most people would farm 90. The set buffs for next season do not indicate an increase of 20x, not even 10x, it's more between 50% and 100% (which already means the damage is doubled). Add some new undiscovered builds to that, and then maybe GR110 or possibly even GR120 will be an option, but that already requires some crazy more DPS.
You seem to assume that the limit of what GR can be played is that where people can survive, but that's only partially true. If you watch people running GR110+, it takes pretty much perfect groups of mobs to even kill anything. And that's with the broken wizard meta, and two support classes essentially doubling the wizard's damage. Yes, the XP you receive at GR150 is crazy, but we won't see this next season, not even close to it. Somehow you're neglecting the fact that the HP scaling is even more insane than damage or XP, and that's going to be the limiting factor (read: how much damage can the group deal). And that limit, for all we know, might be in the 110s, maybe early 120s. To reach GR130, Blizzard would have to simply add a zero to all damage numbers on all the sets, for example 400,000% Impale on Shadow's 6 piece
And progression is not "+5 main stat" so gimme a break man, be real!
It is. Why you people allways complains that paragonlevels cannot be used as progression? If it were up to you guys we would not have paragon points. You know what? It would take 1 month to get all gear and hit the brick wall, and then there would be absolutely no point playing.
At least para points gives some progression, and to be frank, the paragon power is not THAT great. If it was like 20 levels difference of high-low para, sure, but it's like... what 3-5? It's nothing! Jeezes, let me enjoy playing and hunt those para levels. It's more fun than farming months for that one item that never drops.
There is no reason to abolish the current "overall" paragon listings as ppl can be top 1000 overall without being 3k paragon. The league system would live next to current leaderboards but with leageus in it , we could see where we are comparing to other ppl who invested the same amount of time into the game.
Also , leaderboards takes the paragon level of the account when the GR is completed so it wouldnt abolish your last GR ranking when you level up from 999 to 1000. Only thing that would do that your next record would be in 1001-2000 rankings PLUS overall leaderboards.
Nice bro
One mind cannot contain all wisdom...
Those that are in the D-league of basketball are not there cause of lack of time its lack of talent and development hench the name of the league.
Trying to compare someones play time verses yours isnt going to work either.I might be able to make my time more efficient than you,so i will gain more than you.