Well, no opinion is "strawman" if Blizzard has been taking both sides seriously. Regardless whether they are or aren't the ORGINAL Diablo crew. If the PK'ing issue WASN'T an issue at all, there wouldn't even be a "hostile" button even in D2. That's my opinion anyway.
Two-dimensional graphics have also always been a part of the game. This is the is-ought fallacy--just because something is (or was) a certain way doesn't mean it ought to be/stay that way.
Changing the graphics engine is an Upgrade to the game... changing the PvP system is a complete revamp or a huge section of the game... stupid strawman argument.
Strawman Argument #2:
By that logic, real life is "kiddie BS" because there are laws against disturbing the peace.
This is a game in which we are immersed in a chaotic (spelled correctly this time just for you) world swarmming with hell beasts. For there to be structured PvP, like as there is in WoW, not only doesn't fit in the story, but ruins this game to some extent. WoW pvp is the most "kiddie" PvP i have ever played. Structured PvP is kiddie pvp.. i dont want rules on my PvP (griefing /hacking aside that is). Free for all murder fests are real PvP. 1 on 1's are also good, and team pvp.. but again, its kiddie pvp if it is structured.
You relating my argument of structured pvp as "kiddie PvP" in a supposedly chaotic virtual world, to being the same thing as me saying Real life is kiddie because there is structured laws is a stupid strawman argument.
I can go all day pointing out strawman arguments that the anti-PK camp constantly makes.. but those are 2 of yours.
Here's one from the last post on the other page, I didn't even need to look further for one.
i was also gonna respong to this cbr... its just blatenly untrue... whenever i was killed in pvp i got back up and fought until i either won or got sick of loosing. But at least i still recognized it was part of the game.
yup.. they dont realize its a competitve game on the PvP side.. coop on PvE.. but in PvP it wasn't meant to be all brotherly love and cooperation in mutual fun. there are gonna be somethings you dont like in life people.
I have noticed that the anti-pk people can only muster strawman arguments, I have yet to see a valid argument from their camp. It's all "it's not nice", "you need to think of other's feelings" etc etc and variations on that theme.
As opposed to "it's fun to kill people!"?
And Look what happened, this turned into another PK vs Anti-PK thread, I called it paged back.
First let me say that what I am about to say is not my own thoughts I got it off of Sirian's http://sirian.warpcore.org/diablo2/protest-2b.html page and would like to hear a response from the PK pro crowd.
How would you feel if there was a button that would force you party up with me and once I hit it you could do nothing else until you helped me finish my current quest?
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"Poets, Priests and Politicians have words to thank for thier positions." De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da The Police
And Look what happened, this turned into another PK vs Anti-PK thread, I called it paged back.
do you people even read our arguments? we have thrown up so many good arguments and "its fun" is all you got out of them? re-read sir, cause you obviously missed alot somewhere...
First let me say that what I am about to say is not my own thoughts I got it off of Sirian's http://sirian.warpcore.org/diablo2/protest-2b.html page and would like to hear a response from the PK pro crowd.
How would you feel if there was a button that would force you party up with me and once I hit it you could do nothing else until you helped me finish my current quest?
Changing the graphics engine is an Upgrade to the game... changing the PvP system is a complete revamp or a huge section of the game... stupid strawman argument.
1. It's not a huge section; griefers are a small minority, as evidenced by their complaints that if there was an opt in/out system, no one would opt in to it.
2. Fixing a broken mechanic is an upgrade as far as I'm concerned. It can also be considered as part of the upgrade to PvP in general, as I have no doubt there will be a more structured/polished PvP system in general.
Strawman Argument #2:
This is a game in which we are immersed in a chaotic (spelled correctly this time just for you) world swarmming with hell beasts. For there to be structured PvP, like as there is in WoW, not only doesn't fit in the story, but ruins this game to some extent.
lol...okay, let's talk "doesn't fit in the story".
In the story of Diablo 2, you're a hero trying to save Sanctuary, not someone looking to kill others trying to succeed at the same goal. The game emphasizes COOPERATING to achieve this goal, and that's why there are parties and things such as monsters immune to one or more elements, especially in Hell (which encourages a diverse team). Story-wise, there should be no PvP AT ALL! Who the hell would be squabbling with each other when the Prime Evils are fucking everything up? Talk about bigger fish to fry!
So nice try, but attempting to complain that removing griefing violates the "fit in the story" is absolutely ridiculous, since just about ALL player/player combat makes absolutely no sense in terms of the setting of the game.
WoW pvp is the most "kiddie" PvP i have ever played.
Good for you, but I don't care. I'm not a WoW player, so such distinctions are meaningless to me.
Structured PvP is kiddie pvp.. i dont want rules on my PvP (griefing /hacking aside that is). Free for all murder fests are real PvP.
No True Scotsman fallacy. It's not your place, nor do you have any authority, to be telling others what's "real" or 'fake' PvP. PvP = player vs. player. All of the things you described are PvP, period.
1 on 1's are also good, and team pvp.. but again, its kiddie pvp if it is structured.
lol, you don't see your own hypocrisy...any rules add structure. Pairing off into teams adds structure.
In other words, what you're really saying is that you want structure, but only the kinds of structure you like, and screw everyone else. And you wonder why this argument doesn't work?
You relating my argument of structured pvp as "kiddie PvP" in a supposedly chaotic virtual world, to being the same thing as me saying Real life is kiddie because there is structured laws is a stupid strawman argument.
Saying it doesn't make it so. Explain how it's a straw man to draw a parallel between disallowing disruptive play in a game and disallowing disruptive acts in real life.
I can go all day pointing out strawman arguments that the anti-PK camp constantly makes.. but those are 2 of yours.
Of course, Timaah just replies saying it's a straw man, but he doesn't explain how. I think he just started throwing the term around after I introduced it. I don't think it means what you think it does, Timaah--it's not a magic phrase you throw at an argument you don't like that automatically defeats it.
do you people even read our arguments? we have thrown up so many good arguments and "its fun" is all you got out of them? re-read sir, cause you obviously missed alot somewhere...
I won't read it. I read that whole crap thread about it where everyone stated why they wanted or didn't want PKing and it was flimsy opinions on the side of wanting PKing.
This thread is turning into more of the same thing, and it's not going to do any good for either of us to argue.
PKing is part of Diablo - Opinion, some people played the whole game without it. PKing is fun - Opinion, the PKer has fun, the masjority of people he kills do not. PKing is competitive - Fact BUT you have PvP for that also, if it's just competition you're looking for and not a unfair fight.
PKing is disruptive of the gameplay - Fact PKing cause many people grief - Fact
PKing is part of Diablo - Opinion, some people played the whole game without it.
Frankly, it never even occurred to me to go 'hunt' other players while they were doing other things in games. Seems like you need to have a certain mindset to even come up with an idea like that, much less execute it.
Blah blah blah. Let me paraphrase what all the PKs are going to tell you:
It's part of the game.
You can play in private games or with friends.
Maybe you should play a different game if you don't like PKing.
There no reason to argue anymore. We all know what you're going to say, it's been said a thousand times. Even if 7/10 players on the forum don't agree you'll still tell us this.
Lets let this die. If you want PKing email blizzard a long list of why PKing should stay, or try a petition, they seem to be popular these days.
Arguing about it here isn't going to change anything.
Distruptive to who? It's not distruptive to me, regardless if I'm the hunter or the hunted. What you claim as fact is actually an opinion. Try again.
Many is debatable also people dying of lag or other issues cause grief, doesn't mean we need to remove Hardcore.
Just because it never occurred to you means nothing. It doesn't change anything. Some people don't like trading and it doesn't occur to them to go trade in trade games, should we remove trade?
It's disruptive to the people who are saying it's disruptive... thats what makes somethign disruptive.
1. It's not a huge section; griefers are a small minority, as evidenced by their complaints that if there was an opt in/out system, no one would opt in to it.
If PKrs were such a small minority then you shouldn't have a problem with them keeping it right? No? Oh, wait.. isnt the problem that it is so rampant that it suposdly destroys peoples immersion in the game... thats not a minority my friend... obviously a good percentage, if not a majority actually liked PKing for it to be such a problem.
2. Fixing a broken mechanic is an upgrade as far as I'm concerned. It can also be considered as part of the upgrade to PvP in general, as I have no doubt there will be a more structured/polished PvP system in general.
First off, the mechanic was never broken.. in fact many or most people will agree that diablos PvP system was great until people started hacking.
Second of all, by your own token, if its not my authority to say whats real or fake pvp, then its not your authority to say whats good or bad pvp and thus can't make suggestions for upgrade.
In the story of Diablo 2, you're a hero trying to save Sanctuary, not someone looking to kill others trying to succeed at the same goal.
Actually the story of diablo 2 takes place after the original heros have been corrupted by diablo.. so.. in this world there ARE evil "heros"... PK fits into the story.
lol, you don't see your own hypocrisy...any rules add structure. Pairing off into teams adds structure.
i agree that i did propose a type of pvp that has some sort of structure... but its not structure that in any way hampers the actual act of PvPing. That argument was only hypocritical under the lens of someone looking for anything possible to shoot down someone elses argument.
Good for you, but I don't care. I'm not a WoW player, so such distinctions are meaningless to me.
[\quote]
you will be soon enough if the type of PvP system you insist upon is incorporated into diablo.
[quote]Saying it doesn't make it so. Explain how it's a straw man to draw a parallel between disallowing disruptive play in a game and disallowing disruptive acts in real life.
its a starwman argument because in this game your meant to kill both people and monsters... your relating it to actual society with laws strictly against such activities. By that token... even structured pvp should be illegal since its murder...
Therein lies the problem: Both sides are chasing each other around the tree. Blizzard will do what it wants in the end and stop flaming each other. All it does is get the thread locked.
Those polls that were made here and at diii.net say different. You might want to check on them.
So if I say trade is distruptive to me, it should be removed?
Still causes grief.
It has if I say it's distruptive to me and it should be removed.
You fail to see the big picture. If the majority says something is disruptive... it is. I don't care how many polls are on diii.net, that's not this forum. For all I know they could all be PKs over there.
Email Blizzard and see if they will put a official poll on the main site. This arguing is going no where as usual.
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http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
Can you at least identify one or two of them?
Changing the graphics engine is an Upgrade to the game... changing the PvP system is a complete revamp or a huge section of the game... stupid strawman argument.
Strawman Argument #2:
This is a game in which we are immersed in a chaotic (spelled correctly this time just for you) world swarmming with hell beasts. For there to be structured PvP, like as there is in WoW, not only doesn't fit in the story, but ruins this game to some extent. WoW pvp is the most "kiddie" PvP i have ever played. Structured PvP is kiddie pvp.. i dont want rules on my PvP (griefing /hacking aside that is). Free for all murder fests are real PvP. 1 on 1's are also good, and team pvp.. but again, its kiddie pvp if it is structured.
You relating my argument of structured pvp as "kiddie PvP" in a supposedly chaotic virtual world, to being the same thing as me saying Real life is kiddie because there is structured laws is a stupid strawman argument.
I can go all day pointing out strawman arguments that the anti-PK camp constantly makes.. but those are 2 of yours.
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
i was also gonna respong to this cbr... its just blatenly untrue... whenever i was killed in pvp i got back up and fought until i either won or got sick of loosing. But at least i still recognized it was part of the game.
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
As opposed to "it's fun to kill people!"?
And Look what happened, this turned into another PK vs Anti-PK thread, I called it paged back.
How would you feel if there was a button that would force you party up with me and once I hit it you could do nothing else until you helped me finish my current quest?
do you people even read our arguments? we have thrown up so many good arguments and "its fun" is all you got out of them? re-read sir, cause you obviously missed alot somewhere...
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
1. It's not a huge section; griefers are a small minority, as evidenced by their complaints that if there was an opt in/out system, no one would opt in to it.
2. Fixing a broken mechanic is an upgrade as far as I'm concerned. It can also be considered as part of the upgrade to PvP in general, as I have no doubt there will be a more structured/polished PvP system in general.
lol...okay, let's talk "doesn't fit in the story".
In the story of Diablo 2, you're a hero trying to save Sanctuary, not someone looking to kill others trying to succeed at the same goal. The game emphasizes COOPERATING to achieve this goal, and that's why there are parties and things such as monsters immune to one or more elements, especially in Hell (which encourages a diverse team). Story-wise, there should be no PvP AT ALL! Who the hell would be squabbling with each other when the Prime Evils are fucking everything up? Talk about bigger fish to fry!
So nice try, but attempting to complain that removing griefing violates the "fit in the story" is absolutely ridiculous, since just about ALL player/player combat makes absolutely no sense in terms of the setting of the game.
Good for you, but I don't care. I'm not a WoW player, so such distinctions are meaningless to me.
No True Scotsman fallacy. It's not your place, nor do you have any authority, to be telling others what's "real" or 'fake' PvP. PvP = player vs. player. All of the things you described are PvP, period.
lol, you don't see your own hypocrisy...any rules add structure. Pairing off into teams adds structure.
In other words, what you're really saying is that you want structure, but only the kinds of structure you like, and screw everyone else. And you wonder why this argument doesn't work?
Saying it doesn't make it so. Explain how it's a straw man to draw a parallel between disallowing disruptive play in a game and disallowing disruptive acts in real life.
So you claim. Reality tells a different story.
=====NEXT POST=====
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?p=295756#post295756 <-- This is an interesting analogy. It illustrates how allowing someone to force a mechanic on you is annoying and doesn't add anything to the game.
Of course, Timaah just replies saying it's a straw man, but he doesn't explain how. I think he just started throwing the term around after I introduced it. I don't think it means what you think it does, Timaah--it's not a magic phrase you throw at an argument you don't like that automatically defeats it.
I won't read it. I read that whole crap thread about it where everyone stated why they wanted or didn't want PKing and it was flimsy opinions on the side of wanting PKing.
This thread is turning into more of the same thing, and it's not going to do any good for either of us to argue.
PKing is part of Diablo - Opinion, some people played the whole game without it.
PKing is fun - Opinion, the PKer has fun, the masjority of people he kills do not.
PKing is competitive - Fact BUT you have PvP for that also, if it's just competition you're looking for and not a unfair fight.
PKing is disruptive of the gameplay - Fact
PKing cause many people grief - Fact
Frankly, it never even occurred to me to go 'hunt' other players while they were doing other things in games. Seems like you need to have a certain mindset to even come up with an idea like that, much less execute it.
It's part of the game.
You can play in private games or with friends.
Maybe you should play a different game if you don't like PKing.
There no reason to argue anymore. We all know what you're going to say, it's been said a thousand times. Even if 7/10 players on the forum don't agree you'll still tell us this.
Lets let this die. If you want PKing email blizzard a long list of why PKing should stay, or try a petition, they seem to be popular these days.
Arguing about it here isn't going to change anything.
It's disruptive to the people who are saying it's disruptive... thats what makes somethign disruptive.
Lagging is not removeable PKing can be removed.
Trade has nothing to do with this.
Way to answer my question! Thank you for enlightening me on your side of this discussion.
If PKrs were such a small minority then you shouldn't have a problem with them keeping it right? No? Oh, wait.. isnt the problem that it is so rampant that it suposdly destroys peoples immersion in the game... thats not a minority my friend... obviously a good percentage, if not a majority actually liked PKing for it to be such a problem.
First off, the mechanic was never broken.. in fact many or most people will agree that diablos PvP system was great until people started hacking.
Second of all, by your own token, if its not my authority to say whats real or fake pvp, then its not your authority to say whats good or bad pvp and thus can't make suggestions for upgrade.
Actually the story of diablo 2 takes place after the original heros have been corrupted by diablo.. so.. in this world there ARE evil "heros"... PK fits into the story.
i agree that i did propose a type of pvp that has some sort of structure... but its not structure that in any way hampers the actual act of PvPing. That argument was only hypocritical under the lens of someone looking for anything possible to shoot down someone elses argument.
its a starwman argument because in this game your meant to kill both people and monsters... your relating it to actual society with laws strictly against such activities. By that token... even structured pvp should be illegal since its murder...
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
It was a part of diablo due to the hostile bootan. The people that played without it chose to. I agree with all your other F/O's though.
You fail to see the big picture. If the majority says something is disruptive... it is. I don't care how many polls are on diii.net, that's not this forum. For all I know they could all be PKs over there.
Email Blizzard and see if they will put a official poll on the main site. This arguing is going no where as usual.