It seems that there is no point talking about art.
Threads and polls set in reference in the 1st post are closed.
Well. I would have voted "too cartonish", concerning the armors/weapons only. I do not like the thick "warcraft" aspect of all armors/weapons, I would have preferred something more "real". But I feel fine with every thing else in the landscape/environment...
Cor - I've decided that you have no idea what you are talking about. You've changed stances from "It's neon green" to "It's as if neon green lights are diffusing and hitting the gray stone on the dungeon and blah blah".
Kenzai - You are a subset of gamer that actually wants things darker in a game that is already dark. In many dungeon crawlers a big complaint is that it's too dark and here you are - begging to see less of what's going on in the game. Your entire argument is based on "This is how it should be!". It's you thinking that your personal preference is what Diablo really is, and that is something I have not seen you able to back up yet.
I kept thinking that pointing out that you were using hyperbole to get your points across would make you realize that your points were flimsy. I was wrong. You clearly have no argument if you're telling me that you need to exaggerate your complaints in order to have a point.
P.S. Screw your shoulder pads. Instead of having enough integrity to say 'Well, I just like smaller shoulder pads", you're saying that Diablo has a f'n "LIMIT" on them? Go to Blizzard right now and explain to them how their game has a limit on shoulder pads... . You know they've be laughing at you right. Also your crap about armor design clearly comes from someone who knows both jack and shit about fantasy. Huge armor that is surreal and breaks the rules is all part of fantasy. It's not about staying with in guidelines that some kid who likes to play diablo thinks is "cool" because every single joint on the armor is perfectly aligned to some made up standard of realism.
Ok - if even one more of you people says that there is NEON LIGHT blazing through out the tombs I'm going to cut your face and put you out on the street.
There isn't neon light anywhere in the tomb. That is hyperbole so that you have something to complain about. End of story.
I think the light never came across to me as weird unless I sat there and overanalyzed it like some obsessive nut. My first impression was that it was creepy in those tombs. That was it. I submitted to the fantasy they've created. The head of Art Direction even stated that they intentionally made the light UNATURAL in order to better immerse us into the world. The light doesn't fragment into perfect, fragmented lines intentionally they said. I have to agree with them on this one.
The light is unrealistic... it's done, in my opinion, too simply... I can't be immersed if I have no clue where the light comes from.
I'll just let Blizzard answer. I'm sure you'll like this:
Stylization over Realism
Getting back to our core philosophies at Bliz, one of them being stylization over realism. Stylization can sometimes be equated with cartoony or Disney art style. Not what we're going after with Diablo art style. We understand, looking back at D1 and D2 that the universe is very dark. It was created by demons and angels, and people in the world see such supernatural creatures on a daily basis. There's a level of grit and realism we want to bring to the game, but at the same time, it's important to take the player into a fantasy realm. To give the player something they've never seen before. If we just took pictures and stuck polygons on them, that's not us doing our job. We wanted to push the idea of bringing a unique, different look to the D3 universe, but not being too cartoony or deviating too far from what the previous games established.
Strong silhouettes
These serves multiple purposes in the environment. The biggest is that they support the game play very well. When you open up gameplay and use larger shapes to define your gaming world, it actually allows for more creatures on screen. And that's really the important thing for us. get as many on there at once so players can you kill as fast as possible. That's what Diablo is about it's and our job to support that.
Also strong silhouettes add to the epic feel. When you create large shapes, large bricks, walls wiht interesting silhouettes, it makes the universe more of a fantasy land. Look around real life; like this convention hall, everything is very straight and 90 degree angular. We try to avoid that in the game. In game world we want to transport you to a different location and really represent ourselves as a fantasy realm. It’s important to remain grounded in reality; we have walls that go up and down in straight lines; but within that wall we have bricks that stick out, railings at angles, and other things. It makes it more visually pleasing and supports gameplay by opening up space.
Color
Color was one of the most controversial things. Our memory of D1 and D2 was not what they really were. We thought it was a very gray, washed out universe, very dark, nooks and crannies of black. But when we went back and played we saw a lot of really vibrant areas, and that's something we latched onto. We did research on horror movies that we thought accomplished the horror vibe very well. One of the things was use of color to establish mood. Carried over into art style for d3. choosing palettes carefully.
Colors seen outside of screenshot without context the colors are very bright, but when seen in context of the game the colors are effective in establishing mood. Dark greens and dark blues to establish a horror vibe, ominous vibe. Big brother is watching. You can get away with using very vibrant colors which is pleasing, but at the same time maintain that core value of the Diablo franchise. A horror vibe. And when you're not afraid of color you can use to your advantage. Use it to lead gameplay where you want to go. When you have an overall screen of greenish light, you can stick an orange torch in, and the bright orange flame becomes a beacon for the player to follow. It makes gameplay better for the player to understand. Everything comes together seamlessly.
That has nothing to do with what I said. I'm talking about lighting quality here.
When you have an overall screen of greenish light, you can stick an orange torch in, and the bright orange flame becomes a beacon for the player to follow. It makes gameplay better for the player to understand. Everything comes together seamlessly.
That's just hiding behind "we are not able to manage our light properly". They could just stick a green lamp in to explain their "screen of greenish light". Except they use absent sources - bad bad lighting.
That explanation is idiotic and I didn't bother with it.
That's just hiding behind "we are not able to manage our light properly". They could just stick a green lamp in to explain their "screen of greenish light". Except they use absent sources - bad bad lighting.
That explanation is idiotic and I didn't bother with it.
Not being able to see the source of light in a game/movie is not considered bad lighting. This shows me that you don't know what bad lighting really is. Not every light on a screen needs to have it's source within view.
Making the claim that Blizzard Pros are "hiding" is kinda a big thing to do. Can you back up your claim?
And I'm still baffled by people complaining about the greenish light. If some tombs are infested with corruption and ghouls wouldn't there be creepy, unnatural things in the air that would make the area greenish and poisonous looking? Doesn't the light evoke a definite mood? Movies use the same type of lighting all the time to evoke a creepy, horror mood.
Also, I think Blizzard's explanation for the lighting is based more on thoughtful solid game design as well.
Not being able to see the source of light in a game/movie is not considered bad lighting. This shows me that you don't know what bad lighting really is. Not every light on a screen needs to have it's source within view.
Withing view? The source is simply not there.
Crypts are gray. Not green. Not blue. Gray. Black, basically, but make it gray to be visible. If you want green light, add a green lamp, if you want blue, add a blue lamp, if you do add a torch, make it throw red-orange light in vicinity, not just a tiny orange blob...
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Making the claim that Blizzard Pros are "hiding" is kinda a big thing to do. Can you back up your claim?
I saw people making areas much better lit than in DIII. My view is that they'd eventually fix it so it seems less out of place.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
And I'm still baffled by people complaining about the greenish light. If some tombs are infested with corruption and ghouls wouldn't there be creepy, unnatural things in the air that would make the area greenish and poisonous looking?
If the area was foggy or there was actual magic in the air, or poison, I'd understand that. But as far as I am concerned that's not why they did it.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Doesn't the light evoke a definite mood?
You never saw a well-lit scene, did you? Evokes a much more powerful mood. Just go outside during, like, dusk, it's beautiful.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Movies use the same type of lighting all the time to evoke a creepy, horror mood.
Last time I saw a movie that was anywhere near creepy was Videodrome and it's from 1984. People don't know how to make creepy, scary movies, just proves my point.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Also, I think Blizzard's explanation for the lighting is based more on thoughtful solid game design as well.
Tons of games use the same lighting Blizzard does, they are basically copiying. Even that MMORPG, Florandia or w/e, uses that hue. It looks awful, frankly. It seems more like a cheap attempt at an atmosphere rather than a real atmosphere.
I don't like using 2D vs 3D as an example, so I was toying with an old engine here, and just to show my point. There isn't even any green/blue here, I'm just explaining my issue with lighting.
The way Diablo III seems to manage it: http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4580/herlightjz8.png
The whole room is lit with equal light (consider - there are no windows or sky in that room, it's basically a box with a chandelier), and the chandelier seems to emit basically nothing, just a bit of a glow like DIII torches.
The way I'd do it: http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/340/herdarkjf5.png
This is a bit rough sector work (the lines where the light is switching are very apparent) because I didn't bother doing it very neat, but at least you can feel that the chandelier is actually litting some of the room, with corners left in the dark. You can still see whatever you need to see, but there is no fake feel that the room is unrealistically lit. DII and DI kinda used this system, although I think they overdid it with the darkness.
I don't like using 2D vs 3D as an example, so I was toying with an old engine here, and just to show my point. There isn't even any green/blue here, I'm just explaining my issue with lighting.
The way Diablo III seems to manage it: http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4580/herlightjz8.png
The whole room is lit with equal light (consider - there are no windows or sky in that room, it's basically a box with a chandelier), and the chandelier seems to emit basically nothing, just a bit of a glow like DIII torches.
The way I'd do it: http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/340/herdarkjf5.png
This is a bit rough sector work (the lines where the light is switching are very apparent) because I didn't bother doing it very neat, but at least you can feel that the chandelier is actually litting some of the room, with corners left in the dark. You can still see whatever you need to see, but there is no fake feel that the room is unrealistically lit. DII and DI kinda used this system, although I think they overdid it with the darkness.
I really like your 2nd example. It reminds me of diablo 1 when you are going to fight him and you cn't see anything at all so you randomly fire arrows untill something moans in the darkness . . . still gives me shivers.
As you can see it's not dark but there is progressive lighting coming from all those torches (I think I added too many lol). Something similar may work for DIII. Obviously, it has to be done different since it's top down, and many torches would be above the player, but the general idea would stay. Light coming from real sources + light being gradual.
Crypts are gray. Not green. Not blue. Gray. Black, basically, but make it gray to be visible. If you want green light, add a green lamp, if you want blue, add a blue lamp, if you do add a torch, make it throw red-orange light in vicinity, not just a tiny orange blob...
I saw people making areas much better lit than in DIII. My view is that they'd eventually fix it so it seems less out of place.
If the area was foggy or there was actual magic in the air, or poison, I'd understand that. But as far as I am concerned that's not why they did it.
You never saw a well-lit scene, did you? Evokes a much more powerful mood. Just go outside during, like, dusk, it's beautiful.
Last time I saw a movie that was anywhere near creepy was Videodrome and it's from 1984. People don't know how to make creepy, scary movies, just proves my point.
Tons of games use the same lighting Blizzard does, they are basically copiying. Even that MMORPG, Florandia or w/e, uses that hue. It looks awful, frankly. It seems more like a cheap attempt at an atmosphere rather than a real atmosphere.
I'm sorry Equinox, I see what you are going for, but I can't help but feel that you are calling for things that wold actually mess D3 up. Let me show you why as we go along:
Just because you can't see where light is coming from does not mean it is so called "bad lighting". The lighting is fine, though from what I can tell it doesn't meet your tastes or your personal view on what is "Diablo".
So you say that the lighting needs to be more dramatic and stark and of course, dark in order to fulfill the "Diablo" standards. To that I say - what would that do to the gameplay that Blizz has designed for D3 and what if other dungeons in the game do have more low key lighting with higher contrast and the tombs is simply a different feel to add variety to the game? You can't call for a static lighting type based on the past history of a videogame. If we did that our games would never evolve, change for the better, or grow into an experience with variety. Think game design and variety.
And before you ask if I know anything about lighting remember that I'm a film student right now. I've done gaffing on sets and I know lighting and it's effect on mood and the over all aesthetic.
So your argument that a dungeon is gray is based on a personal preference that closes itself off to the idea of a dungeon being any other color than gray. It's silly. Just say it outloud: "All dungeons shold be gray." Stone in a dungeon is gray only or should be gray because...why? What if the dungeon is made of limestone? Is that not "Diablo" enough? Calling for how things "should" be isn't going to get us anywhere. it is a moot point and personal prefernece that I don't care to argue with you because Blizzard has made a dungeon that breaks the mold on the typical Action RPG and I ilke it. Its fresh. So let's both try not to talk about how it "should" be.
Those torches don't need to put off strong dramatic light in order to be successfully read as torches by the player. You say that harsher, low key lighting evokes a more "powerful mood". Well, remember that Blizz has cleverly designed the backgrounds with large shapes and silhouettes in them in order to give us a more "epic" feel. And I think it works. In the background I see endless caverns and monsters walking by. It just works for me as an experience.
Your point about creepy movies is irrelevant. I don't care what you think is creepy or not when it comes to movies. I was talking aesthetics of movies - mainly the lighting and the mood it creates on the human mind. So cold green lighting has an eerie unsettling effect on us. Think The Matrix. So if Blizz wants to give us a creepy effect and you say it's not good enough because the lighting isn't contrasted and dramatic enough,... . To this I ask what if Blizz isn't wanting to blow their story telling load on this dungeon and instead of dramatic they are going for creepy? Perhaps a later dungeon has more of what you are asking for? But either way I think that you can't say that the lighting is wrong. It sounds like it's just not your personal favorite and that it NO reason to call for changes to the art direction of a game.
I think that your "cheap attempt at atmosphere" comment is a bit overboard too. It actually comes across as kinda funny.
I see what you are talking about in your screen shots but I covered all of that above. If you want more dratic lighting in every dungeon then prepare for monotony game design. And people don't want that.
Kenzai - I appreciate your time and attempts to make your posts filled with content, but I think that you are merely calling for D3 to be the same as D2 to the point to where I ask : Why don't you just play D2 instead? You're also asking for gray dungeons and darker everything, but a lack of darkness does not mean the game itself isn't still dark.
I think after all this, you guys are still going to love D3 and see that it is still a dark game. I'll be t you'll be able to adjust the contrast on the game through the settings anyway if it bothers you so much. :thumbsup:
I'm sorry Equinox, I see what you are going for, but I can't help but feel that you are calling for things that wold actually mess D3 up.
I'm not arrogant enough to assume that anything I say here will, in any way, affect Diablo III, and even if it somehow did, it would first be filtered by the scrutiny of developers. In any case, I like discussions.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Just because you can't see where light is coming from does not mean it is so called "bad lighting". The lighting is fine, though from what I can tell it doesn't meet your tastes or your personal view on what is "Diablo".
I'm saying the light is unrealistic. Unrealistic = bad technical quality. And, as I said, I'm OK with that since Blizzard is not ID software to give us awesome graphics. But please don't tell me that's high quality lighting.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
So you say that the lighting needs to be more dramatic and stark and of course, dark in order to fulfill the "Diablo" standards.
No, I go for realistic. I did not mention Diablo I and II at all. The game that I brought as an example is Heretic, extremely colorful game that handled lighting in a way that I liked. I think you are confusing me with people who like how DII looks, I don't like how DII looks.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
And before you ask if I know anything about lighting remember that I'm a film student right now. I've done gaffing on sets and I know lighting and it's effect on mood and the over all aesthetic.
That doesn't do shit for me. Most people who make movies were in a film school, yet their movies suck ass in each and every way. If you have no artistic sense no school is going to help you, and debating which one of us has artistic sense isn't going to lead anywhere, so please don't bring up your puny "experience" in here.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
So your argument that a dungeon is gray is based on a personal preference that closes itself off to the idea of a dungeon being any other color than gray. It's silly. Just say it outloud: "All dungeons shold be gray."
You are a bit wrong here. The DIII dungeon IS gray. It's just lit in green. I say it should have its original color first, and then it should be lit by lamps and torches.
A dungeon can be whatever color a dungeon should be, I can imagine them in all sorts of colors. But no dungeon out there has fake lighting out of nowhere in it. They may have grey stone, green stone, mossy stone, vulcanic stone, whatever, but they are not lit by random blue and green hues.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Those torches don't need to put off strong dramatic light in order to be successfully read as torches by the player. You say that harsher, low key lighting evokes a more "powerful mood".
I totally disagree. If a light object does not emit light it becomes a mere decoration. And last time I checked torches in dungeons weren't really decorations.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Well, remember that Blizz has cleverly designed the backgrounds with large shapes and silhouettes in them in order to give us a more "epic" feel. And I think it works. In the background I see endless caverns and monsters walking by. It just works for me as an experience.
Blizzard may design whatever it wants, it has to sell this game to a huge amount of players, and considering how many MMORPG's use the green hue effect, that's probably a pretty popular technique. Why should I care for that? I don't consider a game company that tries to favor an audience any kind of source of authority. It's like saying Blizzard is using advanced modeling technology so they use low-poly badly detailed models.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
So cold green lighting has an eerie unsettling effect on us. Think The Matrix.
The matrix had computer font representation, and overall related to computers, using the color green. It also managed color much better than DIII ever will. Matrix wasn't full of green strangely lit rooms.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
To this I ask what if Blizz isn't wanting to blow their story telling load on this dungeon and instead of dramatic they are going for creepy?
Please explain to me what the words dramatic and creepy mean in this context. I can only think of these:
- instilling fear;
- realistic.
I don't remember mentioning the word dramatic. I said I like lighting to be realistic, because it's more immersive, and what can be more immersive than something that relates to real life? The best movies use as less extra lighting as possible. In fact, most artists, when trying to convey some mood, go to great lengths to make something realistic. 3D modeling guys and painters actually learn the anatomy of a human before painting one. Realism, when it comes to graphics, is the cornerstone of immersion.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
Perhaps a later dungeon has more of what you are asking for?
What sense does that make? A dungeon is a dungeon, it doesn't look different just because of lighting, it can have different stone, design, architecture, etc. etc. What does a "later dungeon" has to do with anything? I want ALL dungeons to not look silly like somebody added a floating light object with color green in the middle to make it more "creepy".
Quote from "Creepsville" »
I see what you are talking about in your screen shots but I covered all of that above. If you want more dratic lighting in every dungeon then prepare for monotony game design. And people don't want that.
Has nothing to do with monotony. You can have a brightly lit dungeon (magic stuff, chandeliers, windows). You can have a darkly lit dungeon. But you can't have a dungeon lit by nothing, and you can't have a dungeon lit unrealistically on purpose. That's silly.
Quote from "Creepsville" »
I think after all this, you guys are still going to love D3 and see that it is still a dark game. I'll be t you'll be able to adjust the contrast on the game through the settings anyway if it bothers you so much. :thumbsup:
What does this have to do with DIII or loving it or hating it? What does it have to do with bothering anyone? Stop making stupid assumptions please.
Adjusting contrast is not going to generate complex lighting effects. Unlike DII fans, I am asking for something that's much harder to do than that. Perphaps that's why Blizzard did not do it. Too hard, too long.
The pillars on the right look a little too undamaged, but I don't think it should be that dark (Looks too black and white) I regret signing the petition.
The game will be what the game will be.
And I'll feel like the winning side of sports rivals when it does.
I'm gonna fuck with everybody that acted like a piece of shit,
because you gotta be a prick to disagree. Disagree maturely? Impossible.
I'm going to love rubbing it in.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Dime for the Body - Penny for the Thought - Bitches Wanna Think They Got Game But They Too Broke to Bought - I Got the Body, And the Plan Taught - All Skills Combined, I Am ~ The Boss" - USNSEALs
Whoa Equin - your point by points are getting tiresome and I can tell that we aren't going to get anywhere.
Quote from "Equinox" »
...
Hmm, where to start. It's odd that you think I was saying that you would actually mess up D3. I was saying that if what you were calling for was implemented it would mess up the game - not making a personal statement. Just to be clear.
You don't know quality lighting then. The lighting is fine. I've talked to Interior Designer friends on the subject and they say it's fine. Realistic light DOES NOT EQUAL higher quality. That is something you made up. It is, however, fine in a FANTASY game to use surreal lighting to evoke mood and pull people into ANOTHER WORLD. That's a basic design concept used in countless games and movies. If you don't get it then try to understand it instead of labeling it as "low quality".
That's cool if you don't care for D2. Many people that call for realism usually cite D2 as their source for how all things should be. But, with all due respect, D3 is NOT Heretic. Heretic is FPS and D3 is isometric. That makes a huge difference to how you present your game on screen considering D3 has a definite gameplay philosophy of "destroy hordes of monsters".
If I couldn't see the hordes of Monsters coming my way because the game was stark rays and beacons of light surrounded by deep shadows, I wouldn't know to use my Leap attack ability as the Barbarian and leap into the fray and keep the action going. I wouldn't see them coming until they were on top of me and I wouldn't get as much use out of my classes abilities as I'd like. Hence, it would hinder the gameplay experience.
I'm not going to let you discount my experience just so you feel like you have a leg to stand on in this discussion. It does count for something and I am sharing what I've learned with you and I don't care what your personal views on movies are. I could go off for hours about terrible movies with you btw, but it doesn't change the basic craft behind them and the understanding of it. Ok? So drop the BS about my "puny" experience and try to understand where I am coming from.
You think a dungeon should be lit only by torches,...again that's a personal preference. If Blizz wants to be ARTISTS and create a more thickly rich and moody atmosphere what's to say they've messed up their game if they do right? I told you to stop saying 'it should" over and over as it gets us nowhere. Your personal tastes don't make for a better gaming experience for the general population. I like variety. I like mood creation and appreciate a fresh new take on dungeon crawling. The use of green light is not "random" as you say but a design choice used to create mood which I've told you about 28 times now.
The torches do emit light. Even Blizz said, as I showed above, that torches will emit light and you will follow them as part of the game design. If the don't emit enough light for you the aren't good enough is what you're saying and I think that YET AGAIN, is personal preference and talking as if you know what's best for the game instead of allowing something new to be made. And if you don't like Blizzards style then don't buy their game. Simple as that.
Matrix used green lighting to evoke mood. That's all I said. It did the same thing that the Tombs dungeon did on D3. You didn't see green lights ANYWHERE in the movie but everything had a green tinge. Can you understand that yet? See what I just said? NO GREEN LIGHTS in the matrix, yet everything had a green tinge. lol. Before you start planning your rebuttal think about what I said for a moment. The Matrix had no blatantly green lights in it and yet green dominates the films overall aesthetic - just like in the D3 tombs!!! But you aren't calling the Matrix out on "bad lighting" are you?
The screens you posted and what you were talking about was more dramatic styled lighting. You called for more low key, contrasty lighting. This type of lighting like you showed in the screen shots you posted has a more dramatic effect on the viewer. That's something you learn in film school hehe. Your points about real-life being the only way to immerse people into something is true but again you take it too far by saying that things need to meet a standard of realism that appeals to your tastes. A stylized movie or game like D3 still has realism and even believability attached to it while still looking stylized. Anime is the same and animated movies can make people cry better than movies with real actors at times right? Why is that do you think? Stop making blanket statements about realism and video game design if you are untrained on the subject.
You just admitted that you want all dungeons to look the same...sad. BORING. You want them your way and can't appreciate the successful artistic intentions behind making one dungeon creepy. I mentioned later dungeons because we haven't seen the other ones yet and we don't know how they will look for sure yet. Yes, apparently you can have a dungeon lit by "nothing". You can. You can have magic and corruption in the air and make it look eerie. That's why artists like me and the people at Blizzard like it and people who don't know shit about art but like to think they do like you say that you just can't have it.
Sorry, but I think it's not a "stupid" assumption to assume that you will love D3. And you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to lighting. I can say this because you don't know what the D3 custom graphics engine is capable of lightingwise,...and you tell me that I am making stupid assumptions? Shit, you just assumed that D3 isn't capable of complex lighting based off of....? Hehehe.
My girlfriend told me to stop arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about. I am wasting time if every post is a point by point ramble about how you want it your way, Equinox. So I'm going to just stop giving you my imput and let the other forum goers sort it all out.
Thanks.
EDIT: I played D2 today! That game has dungeons with light coming from NOTHING and I still believed them. The game wasn't as dark as I'd remembered either. It is still a great game too. Hooked me right away.
Threads and polls set in reference in the 1st post are closed.
Well. I would have voted "too cartonish", concerning the armors/weapons only. I do not like the thick "warcraft" aspect of all armors/weapons, I would have preferred something more "real". But I feel fine with every thing else in the landscape/environment...
Kenzai - You are a subset of gamer that actually wants things darker in a game that is already dark. In many dungeon crawlers a big complaint is that it's too dark and here you are - begging to see less of what's going on in the game. Your entire argument is based on "This is how it should be!". It's you thinking that your personal preference is what Diablo really is, and that is something I have not seen you able to back up yet.
I kept thinking that pointing out that you were using hyperbole to get your points across would make you realize that your points were flimsy. I was wrong. You clearly have no argument if you're telling me that you need to exaggerate your complaints in order to have a point.
P.S. Screw your shoulder pads. Instead of having enough integrity to say 'Well, I just like smaller shoulder pads", you're saying that Diablo has a f'n "LIMIT" on them? Go to Blizzard right now and explain to them how their game has a limit on shoulder pads... . You know they've be laughing at you right. Also your crap about armor design clearly comes from someone who knows both jack and shit about fantasy. Huge armor that is surreal and breaks the rules is all part of fantasy. It's not about staying with in guidelines that some kid who likes to play diablo thinks is "cool" because every single joint on the armor is perfectly aligned to some made up standard of realism.
Nit-pick more.
That explanation is idiotic and I didn't bother with it.
Not being able to see the source of light in a game/movie is not considered bad lighting. This shows me that you don't know what bad lighting really is. Not every light on a screen needs to have it's source within view.
Making the claim that Blizzard Pros are "hiding" is kinda a big thing to do. Can you back up your claim?
And I'm still baffled by people complaining about the greenish light. If some tombs are infested with corruption and ghouls wouldn't there be creepy, unnatural things in the air that would make the area greenish and poisonous looking? Doesn't the light evoke a definite mood? Movies use the same type of lighting all the time to evoke a creepy, horror mood.
Also, I think Blizzard's explanation for the lighting is based more on thoughtful solid game design as well.
Crypts are gray. Not green. Not blue. Gray. Black, basically, but make it gray to be visible. If you want green light, add a green lamp, if you want blue, add a blue lamp, if you do add a torch, make it throw red-orange light in vicinity, not just a tiny orange blob...
I saw people making areas much better lit than in DIII. My view is that they'd eventually fix it so it seems less out of place.
If the area was foggy or there was actual magic in the air, or poison, I'd understand that. But as far as I am concerned that's not why they did it.
You never saw a well-lit scene, did you? Evokes a much more powerful mood. Just go outside during, like, dusk, it's beautiful.
Last time I saw a movie that was anywhere near creepy was Videodrome and it's from 1984. People don't know how to make creepy, scary movies, just proves my point.
Tons of games use the same lighting Blizzard does, they are basically copiying. Even that MMORPG, Florandia or w/e, uses that hue. It looks awful, frankly. It seems more like a cheap attempt at an atmosphere rather than a real atmosphere.
The way Diablo III seems to manage it: http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4580/herlightjz8.png
The whole room is lit with equal light (consider - there are no windows or sky in that room, it's basically a box with a chandelier), and the chandelier seems to emit basically nothing, just a bit of a glow like DIII torches.
The way I'd do it: http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/340/herdarkjf5.png
This is a bit rough sector work (the lines where the light is switching are very apparent) because I didn't bother doing it very neat, but at least you can feel that the chandelier is actually litting some of the room, with corners left in the dark. You can still see whatever you need to see, but there is no fake feel that the room is unrealistically lit. DII and DI kinda used this system, although I think they overdid it with the darkness.
As you can see it's not dark but there is progressive lighting coming from all those torches (I think I added too many lol). Something similar may work for DIII. Obviously, it has to be done different since it's top down, and many torches would be above the player, but the general idea would stay. Light coming from real sources + light being gradual.
I'm sorry Equinox, I see what you are going for, but I can't help but feel that you are calling for things that wold actually mess D3 up. Let me show you why as we go along:
Just because you can't see where light is coming from does not mean it is so called "bad lighting". The lighting is fine, though from what I can tell it doesn't meet your tastes or your personal view on what is "Diablo".
So you say that the lighting needs to be more dramatic and stark and of course, dark in order to fulfill the "Diablo" standards. To that I say - what would that do to the gameplay that Blizz has designed for D3 and what if other dungeons in the game do have more low key lighting with higher contrast and the tombs is simply a different feel to add variety to the game? You can't call for a static lighting type based on the past history of a videogame. If we did that our games would never evolve, change for the better, or grow into an experience with variety. Think game design and variety.
And before you ask if I know anything about lighting remember that I'm a film student right now. I've done gaffing on sets and I know lighting and it's effect on mood and the over all aesthetic.
So your argument that a dungeon is gray is based on a personal preference that closes itself off to the idea of a dungeon being any other color than gray. It's silly. Just say it outloud: "All dungeons shold be gray." Stone in a dungeon is gray only or should be gray because...why? What if the dungeon is made of limestone? Is that not "Diablo" enough? Calling for how things "should" be isn't going to get us anywhere. it is a moot point and personal prefernece that I don't care to argue with you because Blizzard has made a dungeon that breaks the mold on the typical Action RPG and I ilke it. Its fresh. So let's both try not to talk about how it "should" be.
Those torches don't need to put off strong dramatic light in order to be successfully read as torches by the player. You say that harsher, low key lighting evokes a more "powerful mood". Well, remember that Blizz has cleverly designed the backgrounds with large shapes and silhouettes in them in order to give us a more "epic" feel. And I think it works. In the background I see endless caverns and monsters walking by. It just works for me as an experience.
Your point about creepy movies is irrelevant. I don't care what you think is creepy or not when it comes to movies. I was talking aesthetics of movies - mainly the lighting and the mood it creates on the human mind. So cold green lighting has an eerie unsettling effect on us. Think The Matrix. So if Blizz wants to give us a creepy effect and you say it's not good enough because the lighting isn't contrasted and dramatic enough,... . To this I ask what if Blizz isn't wanting to blow their story telling load on this dungeon and instead of dramatic they are going for creepy? Perhaps a later dungeon has more of what you are asking for? But either way I think that you can't say that the lighting is wrong. It sounds like it's just not your personal favorite and that it NO reason to call for changes to the art direction of a game.
I think that your "cheap attempt at atmosphere" comment is a bit overboard too. It actually comes across as kinda funny.
I see what you are talking about in your screen shots but I covered all of that above. If you want more dratic lighting in every dungeon then prepare for monotony game design. And people don't want that.
Kenzai - I appreciate your time and attempts to make your posts filled with content, but I think that you are merely calling for D3 to be the same as D2 to the point to where I ask : Why don't you just play D2 instead? You're also asking for gray dungeons and darker everything, but a lack of darkness does not mean the game itself isn't still dark.
I think after all this, you guys are still going to love D3 and see that it is still a dark game. I'll be t you'll be able to adjust the contrast on the game through the settings anyway if it bothers you so much. :thumbsup:
I'm saying the light is unrealistic. Unrealistic = bad technical quality. And, as I said, I'm OK with that since Blizzard is not ID software to give us awesome graphics. But please don't tell me that's high quality lighting.
No, I go for realistic. I did not mention Diablo I and II at all. The game that I brought as an example is Heretic, extremely colorful game that handled lighting in a way that I liked. I think you are confusing me with people who like how DII looks, I don't like how DII looks.
That doesn't do shit for me. Most people who make movies were in a film school, yet their movies suck ass in each and every way. If you have no artistic sense no school is going to help you, and debating which one of us has artistic sense isn't going to lead anywhere, so please don't bring up your puny "experience" in here.
You are a bit wrong here. The DIII dungeon IS gray. It's just lit in green. I say it should have its original color first, and then it should be lit by lamps and torches.
A dungeon can be whatever color a dungeon should be, I can imagine them in all sorts of colors. But no dungeon out there has fake lighting out of nowhere in it. They may have grey stone, green stone, mossy stone, vulcanic stone, whatever, but they are not lit by random blue and green hues.
I totally disagree. If a light object does not emit light it becomes a mere decoration. And last time I checked torches in dungeons weren't really decorations.
Blizzard may design whatever it wants, it has to sell this game to a huge amount of players, and considering how many MMORPG's use the green hue effect, that's probably a pretty popular technique. Why should I care for that? I don't consider a game company that tries to favor an audience any kind of source of authority. It's like saying Blizzard is using advanced modeling technology so they use low-poly badly detailed models.
The matrix had computer font representation, and overall related to computers, using the color green. It also managed color much better than DIII ever will. Matrix wasn't full of green strangely lit rooms.
Please explain to me what the words dramatic and creepy mean in this context. I can only think of these:
- instilling fear;
- realistic.
I don't remember mentioning the word dramatic. I said I like lighting to be realistic, because it's more immersive, and what can be more immersive than something that relates to real life? The best movies use as less extra lighting as possible. In fact, most artists, when trying to convey some mood, go to great lengths to make something realistic. 3D modeling guys and painters actually learn the anatomy of a human before painting one. Realism, when it comes to graphics, is the cornerstone of immersion.
What sense does that make? A dungeon is a dungeon, it doesn't look different just because of lighting, it can have different stone, design, architecture, etc. etc. What does a "later dungeon" has to do with anything? I want ALL dungeons to not look silly like somebody added a floating light object with color green in the middle to make it more "creepy".
Has nothing to do with monotony. You can have a brightly lit dungeon (magic stuff, chandeliers, windows). You can have a darkly lit dungeon. But you can't have a dungeon lit by nothing, and you can't have a dungeon lit unrealistically on purpose. That's silly.
What does this have to do with DIII or loving it or hating it? What does it have to do with bothering anyone? Stop making stupid assumptions please.
Adjusting contrast is not going to generate complex lighting effects. Unlike DII fans, I am asking for something that's much harder to do than that. Perphaps that's why Blizzard did not do it. Too hard, too long.
And I'll feel like the winning side of sports rivals when it does.
I'm gonna fuck with everybody that acted like a piece of shit,
because you gotta be a prick to disagree. Disagree maturely? Impossible.
I'm going to love rubbing it in.
Hmm, where to start. It's odd that you think I was saying that you would actually mess up D3. I was saying that if what you were calling for was implemented it would mess up the game - not making a personal statement. Just to be clear.
You don't know quality lighting then. The lighting is fine. I've talked to Interior Designer friends on the subject and they say it's fine. Realistic light DOES NOT EQUAL higher quality. That is something you made up. It is, however, fine in a FANTASY game to use surreal lighting to evoke mood and pull people into ANOTHER WORLD. That's a basic design concept used in countless games and movies. If you don't get it then try to understand it instead of labeling it as "low quality".
That's cool if you don't care for D2. Many people that call for realism usually cite D2 as their source for how all things should be. But, with all due respect, D3 is NOT Heretic. Heretic is FPS and D3 is isometric. That makes a huge difference to how you present your game on screen considering D3 has a definite gameplay philosophy of "destroy hordes of monsters".
If I couldn't see the hordes of Monsters coming my way because the game was stark rays and beacons of light surrounded by deep shadows, I wouldn't know to use my Leap attack ability as the Barbarian and leap into the fray and keep the action going. I wouldn't see them coming until they were on top of me and I wouldn't get as much use out of my classes abilities as I'd like. Hence, it would hinder the gameplay experience.
I'm not going to let you discount my experience just so you feel like you have a leg to stand on in this discussion. It does count for something and I am sharing what I've learned with you and I don't care what your personal views on movies are. I could go off for hours about terrible movies with you btw, but it doesn't change the basic craft behind them and the understanding of it. Ok? So drop the BS about my "puny" experience and try to understand where I am coming from.
You think a dungeon should be lit only by torches,...again that's a personal preference. If Blizz wants to be ARTISTS and create a more thickly rich and moody atmosphere what's to say they've messed up their game if they do right? I told you to stop saying 'it should" over and over as it gets us nowhere. Your personal tastes don't make for a better gaming experience for the general population. I like variety. I like mood creation and appreciate a fresh new take on dungeon crawling. The use of green light is not "random" as you say but a design choice used to create mood which I've told you about 28 times now.
The torches do emit light. Even Blizz said, as I showed above, that torches will emit light and you will follow them as part of the game design. If the don't emit enough light for you the aren't good enough is what you're saying and I think that YET AGAIN, is personal preference and talking as if you know what's best for the game instead of allowing something new to be made. And if you don't like Blizzards style then don't buy their game. Simple as that.
Matrix used green lighting to evoke mood. That's all I said. It did the same thing that the Tombs dungeon did on D3. You didn't see green lights ANYWHERE in the movie but everything had a green tinge. Can you understand that yet? See what I just said? NO GREEN LIGHTS in the matrix, yet everything had a green tinge. lol. Before you start planning your rebuttal think about what I said for a moment. The Matrix had no blatantly green lights in it and yet green dominates the films overall aesthetic - just like in the D3 tombs!!! But you aren't calling the Matrix out on "bad lighting" are you?
The screens you posted and what you were talking about was more dramatic styled lighting. You called for more low key, contrasty lighting. This type of lighting like you showed in the screen shots you posted has a more dramatic effect on the viewer. That's something you learn in film school hehe. Your points about real-life being the only way to immerse people into something is true but again you take it too far by saying that things need to meet a standard of realism that appeals to your tastes. A stylized movie or game like D3 still has realism and even believability attached to it while still looking stylized. Anime is the same and animated movies can make people cry better than movies with real actors at times right? Why is that do you think? Stop making blanket statements about realism and video game design if you are untrained on the subject.
You just admitted that you want all dungeons to look the same...sad. BORING. You want them your way and can't appreciate the successful artistic intentions behind making one dungeon creepy. I mentioned later dungeons because we haven't seen the other ones yet and we don't know how they will look for sure yet. Yes, apparently you can have a dungeon lit by "nothing". You can. You can have magic and corruption in the air and make it look eerie. That's why artists like me and the people at Blizzard like it and people who don't know shit about art but like to think they do like you say that you just can't have it.
Sorry, but I think it's not a "stupid" assumption to assume that you will love D3. And you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to lighting. I can say this because you don't know what the D3 custom graphics engine is capable of lightingwise,...and you tell me that I am making stupid assumptions? Shit, you just assumed that D3 isn't capable of complex lighting based off of....? Hehehe.
My girlfriend told me to stop arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about. I am wasting time if every post is a point by point ramble about how you want it your way, Equinox. So I'm going to just stop giving you my imput and let the other forum goers sort it all out.
Thanks.
EDIT: I played D2 today! That game has dungeons with light coming from NOTHING and I still believed them. The game wasn't as dark as I'd remembered either. It is still a great game too. Hooked me right away.
-edit- may have broken the page for those without widescreen, will make a thumbnail shortly.