I know Quin made a rant about this, you can find a thread about it here but since it has past almost three months since the last replay I figured we should start fresh.
Legacy of Nightmares set were introduced in patch 2.4 which gives you 100% increase damage for every ancient item you wear, if you use no other set then LoN. This is pretty neat and gives a lot of room for experiments. However, the off pieces which increases damage of a skill by X% limits LoN's diversity.
Take monk for example. They have bracer, head and two weapons which increase the damage of Wave of Light by loads. All of them are off pieces which makes them available to use in conjunction with LoN. The same goes for the skill Tempest Rush which has a lot of off pieces with increase damage on them. Lashing Tail Kick is another skill using off pieces to vastly up its damage.
It's great that those skills get some love but how on earth is anything else meant to be competitive without the X% damage increase to its damage? You need to consider the fact that you more or less use one skill only when dealing damage, the rest of skills is supportive choices, like Epiphany, Mantras, Dash etcetera.
There's also items altering how a skill works, I'm mainly thinking of Tzo Kin's Grace. This item make you able to use Wave of Light (a melee skill) on range, which is great, but it also increase WoL's damage by 125-150%. If I want to use WoL then this head is a must but it also "forces" me to be range. In short, you're unable to play with WoL as a melee skill due to this item increasing its damage by loads while making it usable from a distance.
What the hell's my point? Well, while the percent damage made those skills more used, they overshadow everything else by a fair bit. What could be done about it? Would making more items increasing skill damage by a percent to make more skills competitive? Move the damage increase from gear to charms, legend gems for chest/pants or something like that?
Maybe I've no valid points due to be being inexperienced but when I tried different things I always ended up using those percent damage increasing items which limits my skill choices to one.
Does LoN give 1300% or 1200%? Does two weapons add 100% each?
Say you're using LoN, and WoL. You get 1200% from LoN and then 150% from head, 150% from bracer, 30% from weapon (diabo) and 150% from fist weapon (250% if fewer then four targets) to WoL's damage. This is 1880-1980% increase damage depending on the number of targets. Plus everything else you use have it's damage increased by at least 1200%, procs from items and other skills. Compare that to using generators and procs, you can increase your generators damage by 100% from pants but that's about it (not counting specific 15% skill damage rolled on gear, you can always roll that). You'd lack about 600% damage.
If they instead didn't have the increase damage on so many items both scenarios would have about the same damage increase. I'm not saying that LoN lack builds, I'm saying that the power level of those builds is too different from one another, they should be closer and I think skill damage increase on items is at fault.
Should it be 1200% * 150% * 150% * 30% * 150-250% => 13 * 2,5 * 2,5 * 1,3 * 2,5 to 3,5?
I'm sorry, I don't really understand when to use additive and multiplicative percent. LoN gives 100% +..+ 100% or 100% *..* 100%?
LoN Crusader uses their thorns damage to increase their bombardment damage along with the weapon The Mortal Drama which doubles the amount of bombardments, aka, doubles bombardment damage. Add to this how tanky they become when ignoring CHC and CHD while thorns being a secondary affix which is also increased by Iron Skin. I think that's about the same as my WoL example. The Crusader have plenty of ways to increase bombardment while still maintaining Strength as main stat.
I believe LoN is its own seperate multiplier. I.e. With a perfect 200% rolled balance and 12 Ancients you should receive 3 * 13 = 39 total multiplier to tempest rush from these two alone.
This is as opposed to it instead being 1200% + 200% = 1400% or 15 multiplier.
I know Quin made a rant about this, you can find a thread about it here but since it has past almost three months since the last replay I figured we should start fresh.
Legacy of Nightmares set were introduced in patch 2.4 which gives you 100% increase damage for every ancient item you wear, if you use no other set then LoN. This is pretty neat and gives a lot of room for experiments. However, the off pieces which increases damage of a skill by X% limits LoN's diversity.
Take monk for example. They have bracer, head and two weapons which increase the damage of Wave of Light by loads. All of them are off pieces which makes them available to use in conjunction with LoN. The same goes for the skill Tempest Rush which has a lot of off pieces with increase damage on them. Lashing Tail Kick is another skill using off pieces to vastly up its damage.
It's great that those skills get some love but how on earth is anything else meant to be competitive without the X% damage increase to its damage? You need to consider the fact that you more or less use one skill only when dealing damage, the rest of skills is supportive choices, like Epiphany, Mantras, Dash etcetera.
There's also items altering how a skill works, I'm mainly thinking of Tzo Kin's Grace. This item make you able to use Wave of Light (a melee skill) on range, which is great, but it also increase WoL's damage by 125-150%. If I want to use WoL then this head is a must but it also "forces" me to be range. In short, you're unable to play with WoL as a melee skill due to this item increasing its damage by loads while making it usable from a distance.
What the hell's my point? Well, while the percent damage made those skills more used, they overshadow everything else by a fair bit. What could be done about it? Would making more items increasing skill damage by a percent to make more skills competitive? Move the damage increase from gear to charms, legend gems for chest/pants or something like that?
Maybe I've no valid points due to be being inexperienced but when I tried different things I always ended up using those percent damage increasing items which limits my skill choices to one.
What say you?
That's false as you can still play WoL as Melee, the 125% from that helmet isn't so ungodly amazing that you're forced into it, I mean sure, it's nice, but saying you HAVE to use it when it's not 100% mandatory is silly! :p. For example I made an LTK build utilizing the SWK set and LTK Boots, I didn't include the LTK helm as there are much better alternatives than 100% LTK damage. I.G 6 Piece with Focus/Restraint and Unity, or 5 Piece with Unity, RROG and Compass Rose/Traveler's Pledge. Although that is slightly irrelevant to the LoN set, it still has the same premise that specific items aren't mandatory. Which as a contradictory statement, the LTK boots are far too powerful not to use which reassures your reasoning to be true, but again I stress items aren't mandatory. Leoric's or Eye of The Storm would outweigh Tzo Krin's Gaze imho. Lightning WoL is so good.
It's kinda hard to just grasp the essence of the OP's problem, but answer is no, 10%skill dmg and 10% ele dmg is adding the same amount of dmg increase if both apply to the skill in question.
it doesnt grant that much options and its weak anyways.
mb you are weak? and LoN is crushing t10 speedfarming and 90+ gr solo?
the only problem with LoN that i see is very few item choices on certain slots especcialy when you are doing grifts.
chest = aquila/cindercoat. lol that's all? sure Tal Rasha for 7as or Tyrael's Might for 20% to demons but second two are too weak compared to first pair. Crus has decent Iron, it becomes immidieatelly musthave for every thorn build lol.
shoulders = chanelling/lefebvre. lol that's all? Leoric's = trash with what % chance to proc? who exactrly knows. so poor slot that people are trying homing pads and crafted one with 7 pickup radius
pants = if you don't use generators with depth diggers or not moving with mr.Yan you have no adequate choices. Mb wd with 20% poison is ok, but pox trash is ridiculous and i will still use it, cos of no alternatives.
the problem with fire WoL monk with slots like tzo+blade+pinto+... is the result of this. We have a lot of dead legendaries or legendaries without orange affixies mb blizzard will do smth with this in nearest future.
however i'm absolutely happy to play LoN WoL at t10, waiting when the freaking bug with epiphany will be fixed for pushig 85+. Testing LoN EP for no boss 100+ xp runs and grinding items for LTK build also. The LoN will be stronger and stronger with every new legendary that they will add. and we can gring perfect trifecra rings till that moment)
I do have to say that Blizzard adding all that HUGE amount of +% skill damage isn't really healthy for the long term of the game. You either have to give ALL skills the same treatment, or you wind up with unused skills. Not only that, but you also wind up having to give pieces of gear that treatment - Once upon a time in D3, if you wanted to use Cluckeye (Bow that shoots out a chicken relatively often for about 250% weapon damage), you COULD. Now? You HAVE to use one of the various legendary items that correlate to your set.
Blizz has gone too far in one direction - Previously, while there was very little SKILL variety (Most people used the same set of skills), there was a large amount of GEAR variety (You could utilize all sorts of different equipment for the same skill set). Nowadays though, theres a good amount of skill variety (Each class has at least 5 different builds), theres almost no gear variety (For the vast majority of sets, each item you need to use is already pre-determined). The huge amount of +% skill damage doesn't help, either.
Good legendary effects are like Hexing Pants of Mr. Yan, Aquila Cuirass, ect - Theres a benefit for it, but it benefits you more if you utilize a certain playstyle, mainly not using resource with Aquila Cuirass, and constantly moving with Hexing Pants. Bad legendary effects are like Bracers of the First Man - 50% increase attack speed and 150%-200% increased damage on HotA.
Imo, blizzard needs to just boost the baseline weapon damage by 400% (5x, essentially), and remove ALL of the various blank +%damage boosts.from legendaries (Sets are still good though)
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I know Quin made a rant about this, you can find a thread about it here but since it has past almost three months since the last replay I figured we should start fresh.
Legacy of Nightmares set were introduced in patch 2.4 which gives you 100% increase damage for every ancient item you wear, if you use no other set then LoN. This is pretty neat and gives a lot of room for experiments. However, the off pieces which increases damage of a skill by X% limits LoN's diversity.
Take monk for example. They have bracer, head and two weapons which increase the damage of Wave of Light by loads. All of them are off pieces which makes them available to use in conjunction with LoN. The same goes for the skill Tempest Rush which has a lot of off pieces with increase damage on them. Lashing Tail Kick is another skill using off pieces to vastly up its damage.
It's great that those skills get some love but how on earth is anything else meant to be competitive without the X% damage increase to its damage? You need to consider the fact that you more or less use one skill only when dealing damage, the rest of skills is supportive choices, like Epiphany, Mantras, Dash etcetera.
There's also items altering how a skill works, I'm mainly thinking of Tzo Kin's Grace. This item make you able to use Wave of Light (a melee skill) on range, which is great, but it also increase WoL's damage by 125-150%. If I want to use WoL then this head is a must but it also "forces" me to be range. In short, you're unable to play with WoL as a melee skill due to this item increasing its damage by loads while making it usable from a distance.
What the hell's my point? Well, while the percent damage made those skills more used, they overshadow everything else by a fair bit. What could be done about it? Would making more items increasing skill damage by a percent to make more skills competitive? Move the damage increase from gear to charms, legend gems for chest/pants or something like that?
Maybe I've no valid points due to be being inexperienced but when I tried different things I always ended up using those percent damage increasing items which limits my skill choices to one.
What say you?
Does LoN give 1300% or 1200%? Does two weapons add 100% each?
Say you're using LoN, and WoL. You get 1200% from LoN and then 150% from head, 150% from bracer, 30% from weapon (diabo) and 150% from fist weapon (250% if fewer then four targets) to WoL's damage. This is 1880-1980% increase damage depending on the number of targets. Plus everything else you use have it's damage increased by at least 1200%, procs from items and other skills. Compare that to using generators and procs, you can increase your generators damage by 100% from pants but that's about it (not counting specific 15% skill damage rolled on gear, you can always roll that). You'd lack about 600% damage.
If they instead didn't have the increase damage on so many items both scenarios would have about the same damage increase. I'm not saying that LoN lack builds, I'm saying that the power level of those builds is too different from one another, they should be closer and I think skill damage increase on items is at fault.
Should it be 1200% * 150% * 150% * 30% * 150-250% => 13 * 2,5 * 2,5 * 1,3 * 2,5 to 3,5?
I'm sorry, I don't really understand when to use additive and multiplicative percent. LoN gives 100% +..+ 100% or 100% *..* 100%?
LoN Crusader uses their thorns damage to increase their bombardment damage along with the weapon The Mortal Drama which doubles the amount of bombardments, aka, doubles bombardment damage. Add to this how tanky they become when ignoring CHC and CHD while thorns being a secondary affix which is also increased by Iron Skin. I think that's about the same as my WoL example. The Crusader have plenty of ways to increase bombardment while still maintaining Strength as main stat.
I believe LoN is its own seperate multiplier. I.e. With a perfect 200% rolled balance and 12 Ancients you should receive 3 * 13 = 39 total multiplier to tempest rush from these two alone.
This is as opposed to it instead being 1200% + 200% = 1400% or 15 multiplier.
It's kinda hard to just grasp the essence of the OP's problem, but answer is no, 10%skill dmg and 10% ele dmg is adding the same amount of dmg increase if both apply to the skill in question.
Actual DPS =((Main Stat%)*(Weapon Damage+Jewelry Min-Max Damage)*((Crit Chance*Crit Damage)+100%)*(Skill Dmg % +100%)*(APS))*((Native Skill Weapon Damage%)*(Specific Skill%+100%)*(Elemental Damage%+100%))*(elite dmg%)
Full explanation is easily found here : http://diablo.blizzpro.com/2014/05/17/basic-theorycrafting-damage-formula/
Dude do you guys know how to count? It's 1300%.
Shoulder, helm, chest, gloves, bracers, belt, pants, boots, 2x rings, ammy, 1 weapon, 1 off hand.
This 13 ancients not 12.
THEY HATE US, CUZ THEY AIN'T US
LoN is multi (*13 or *14)
Pinto's pride and Kyoshiro Blade are multi (*2.5 or *3.5)
Wave of Light is additive bonus by itself, but all additive buffs are another multiplier
so if you have 12 items LoN monk with Torch in hands
you will have smth like this:
weapon dmg * dexterity * 13(LoN) * 1.8(fire elem) * 1.45 (Bane of the trapped 100) * 2.5(bracers) * 3.5 (kyashiro) * (150+15+30+20+20 additive)
where 150 is tzo krin, 15% to WoL from boots, 30 from Torch, 20 from Fire ally, 20 from mantra(for ex)
zei is also multi
momentum additive
the list is too big
just use d3planner and look dmg formula for your builds
mb you are weak? and LoN is crushing t10 speedfarming and 90+ gr solo?
the only problem with LoN that i see is very few item choices on certain slots especcialy when you are doing grifts.
chest = aquila/cindercoat. lol that's all? sure Tal Rasha for 7as or Tyrael's Might for 20% to demons but second two are too weak compared to first pair. Crus has decent Iron, it becomes immidieatelly musthave for every thorn build lol.
shoulders = chanelling/lefebvre. lol that's all? Leoric's = trash with what % chance to proc? who exactrly knows. so poor slot that people are trying homing pads and crafted one with 7 pickup radius
pants = if you don't use generators with depth diggers or not moving with mr.Yan you have no adequate choices. Mb wd with 20% poison is ok, but pox trash is ridiculous and i will still use it, cos of no alternatives.
the problem with fire WoL monk with slots like tzo+blade+pinto+... is the result of this. We have a lot of dead legendaries or legendaries without orange affixies mb blizzard will do smth with this in nearest future.
however i'm absolutely happy to play LoN WoL at t10, waiting when the freaking bug with epiphany will be fixed for pushig 85+. Testing LoN EP for no boss 100+ xp runs and grinding items for LTK build also. The LoN will be stronger and stronger with every new legendary that they will add. and we can gring perfect trifecra rings till that moment)
I do have to say that Blizzard adding all that HUGE amount of +% skill damage isn't really healthy for the long term of the game. You either have to give ALL skills the same treatment, or you wind up with unused skills. Not only that, but you also wind up having to give pieces of gear that treatment - Once upon a time in D3, if you wanted to use Cluckeye (Bow that shoots out a chicken relatively often for about 250% weapon damage), you COULD. Now? You HAVE to use one of the various legendary items that correlate to your set.
Blizz has gone too far in one direction - Previously, while there was very little SKILL variety (Most people used the same set of skills), there was a large amount of GEAR variety (You could utilize all sorts of different equipment for the same skill set). Nowadays though, theres a good amount of skill variety (Each class has at least 5 different builds), theres almost no gear variety (For the vast majority of sets, each item you need to use is already pre-determined). The huge amount of +% skill damage doesn't help, either.
Good legendary effects are like Hexing Pants of Mr. Yan, Aquila Cuirass, ect - Theres a benefit for it, but it benefits you more if you utilize a certain playstyle, mainly not using resource with Aquila Cuirass, and constantly moving with Hexing Pants. Bad legendary effects are like Bracers of the First Man - 50% increase attack speed and 150%-200% increased damage on HotA.
Imo, blizzard needs to just boost the baseline weapon damage by 400% (5x, essentially), and remove ALL of the various blank +%damage boosts.from legendaries (Sets are still good though)