Carl, besides some jokes about samurai pizza cats, I really don't see anything offensive in that post. The conclusion especially is very upfront and just states that the features that I listed would hinder the Diablo experience if they were implemented in D3.
Its cool Carl. I think you were already angry at Blades111 (I cite the page 2 "Shoot yourself...", and tried to take it out on me. I have been a member long enough here to know about the crazy folks you mention.
You must agree though Carl, that many features that I listed would hurt the Diablo experience if implemented in D3.
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Now for you Mr. Khaan. I must ask this, have you seen Wrath of Khan? You should check it out...
Auto Attack is bad. It stagnates combat, making it boring. It also is designed for 1vs1 combat, which slows the game down as well. Sure Khan, there are a few instances where you can be successful in 2 or 3vs1 battles, but the game is not designed for it.
What is Auto Attack Khan??? I will tell you. You and a monster are fighting. You are not moving, and they are not moving. You are standing still, hitting eachother slowly. There is no way to dodge each other by moving, and even if you slice your sword through the enemy, it doesn't mean you are hitting them. I don't know about you, but I'm already bored. Also, since auto attack uses a radius for enemies, you can be running away from them, and have 20 ft of ingame space between you, yet the monster still hits you! Awesome!
Wait, there is more... I continue to press 1,2,3,4 in the appropriate order to keep casting my spells right when their cooldown expires. Yes, the only keys I am hitting are 1,2,3 and 4. Hell, since I auto attacked so many monsters trying to get to the next level (1 monster at a time mind you), I have memorized the cool down times. I dont even need to look at the screen when I'm attacking. I can watch TV, or a movie. Hell, I dont even need 2 hands to play. Just 1,2,3, and 4 until the monster dies.
Auto Attack does ruin the game, because like I have mentioned above, you are not even playing the game anymore. The game loses its immersion factor by 100%. You don't even need 2 hands to play.
I'm not done yet...
Since the game is auto attack and designed for 1vs1 combat, it is all about pulling 1 monster at a time. This is the game, as I have mentioned. If you are shitty at pulling 1 monster while he chills with his buddies, you will pull more than you can handle, and keep dying, effectively stopping your progress through the game. If you are good at pulling 1 monster at a time, you will suceed in the game. Therefore, as I have shown, the game of WoW is all about pulling safely.
About the expansions. Yes. Diablo 2 has an Expansion. But you can beat the expansion because there is a boss to it. And since there is no more expansions to Diablo 2, you can beat the game. In WoW, there is no boss figure. Also, there will be endless expansion that continue to not have boss figures. Therefore, you cannot beat the game. Sure, Kahn, there are raid bosses, but they are not the bosses of the entire expansion.
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That list was what I saw to be problems in WoW, and things that do not belong in a Diablo title.
Like I said in my original list. They will keep the skeletal game the same because they have to. I am worried though, that if a WoWer is in charge of the design team, they might do things that will ruin the diablo experience. Stuff like expand the inventory to 20 equippable slots, change the spell system so that you learn all the spells and invest in the ones you like, etc...
I have a challange for all you WoWers out there like Carl and Khan. I listed things that are in WoW that I think would hurt Diablo 3. Why don't you guys get together and lists things from WoW that you think would work well in D3.
I'll compile a list, but don't worry. After reading a less rant-like post I see more of what your saying. Like I said, its not that I disagree, its the way you present the info and your ideas that makes me angry.
It'll take me a while to get a decent list as I weigh them, but ya.
I just believe there are many features that WoW has that can be converted to the Action-RPG playstyle. Certain things like Auto-Attack and no stat usage of course would never make it into Diablo. Why fix something that isnt broken? This is basically what Blizzard has done and why Warcraft never changes the playstyle, just added more. Seems Starcraft will be the same as the first, except upgraded of course.
So what we can look foward to, one would hope, would be the same Diablo formula but with some added extras, liked crafting *crosses fingers*, and having gold be of more use than... taking up space.
I just believe there are many features that WoW has that can be converted to the Action-RPG playstyle. Certain things like Auto-Attack and no stat usage of course would never make it into Diablo. Why fix something that isnt broken? This is basically what Blizzard has done and why Warcraft never changes the playstyle, just added more. Seems Starcraft will be the same as the first, except upgraded of course.
Just a quick note on stats before I do a bigger post, WoW beta did have stat point distribution. Blizzard felt that it's role in an MMO was fairly redundant and the benefits were far outweighed by people reaching 60 and realising they had gimped their charaters by choosing bad stats.
I don't for a moment think that this would be good in Diablo 3, but in an MMO it is necessary for the amount of playtime to build characters (new ones anyhow). Either that or respeccing stats which is just as bad imho.
Take your time with the list. I look forward to it.
any list made by a "WoWer" as you like to call it is simply a matter of opinion and could be argued either way. I like WoW alot and i would like to see a few elements of WoW in d3. i certainly them to release world of diablo.
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He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
~Aeschylus :cool:
Now for you Mr. Khaan. I must ask this, have you seen Wrath of Khan? You should check it out...
I have, and the thing in the ear scene gave me nightmares when I saw it as a kid
Auto Attack is bad. It stagnates combat, making it boring. It also is designed for 1vs1 combat, which slows the game down as well. Sure Khan, there are a few instances where you can be successful in 2 or 3vs1 battles, but the game is not designed for it.
What is Auto Attack Khan??? I will tell you. You and a monster are fighting. You are not moving, and they are not moving. You are standing still, hitting eachother slowly. There is no way to dodge each other by moving, and even if you slice your sword through the enemy, it doesn't mean you are hitting them. I don't know about you, but I'm already bored. Also, since auto attack uses a radius for enemies, you can be running away from them, and have 20 ft of ingame space between you, yet the monster still hits you! Awesome!
Wait, there is more... I continue to press 1,2,3,4 in the appropriate order to keep casting my spells right when their cooldown expires. Yes, the only keys I am hitting are 1,2,3 and 4. Hell, since I auto attacked so many monsters trying to get to the next level (1 monster at a time mind you), I have memorized the cool down times. I dont even need to look at the screen when I'm attacking. I can watch TV, or a movie. Hell, I dont even need 2 hands to play. Just 1,2,3, and 4 until the monster dies.
Auto Attack does ruin the game, because like I have mentioned above, you are not even playing the game anymore. The game loses its immersion factor by 100%. You don't even need 2 hands to play.
I'm not done yet...
Since the game is auto attack and designed for 1vs1 combat, it is all about pulling 1 monster at a time. This is the game, as I have mentioned. If you are shitty at pulling 1 monster while he chills with his buddies, you will pull more than you can handle, and keep dying, effectively stopping your progress through the game. If you are good at pulling 1 monster at a time, you will suceed in the game. Therefore, as I have shown, the game of WoW is all about pulling safely.
This is where we disagree. Auto attack is very handy in an MMO to help mitigate lag issues, You might live on the west coast, but on the other side of the world the lag can be quite noticeable. Auto attack in these circumstances is a good thing™ as at least some attacks are handled serverside so you are not totally gimped by lag.
Also the whole thing about hitting a set sequence of number is certainly no worse than Diablo. In fact at least you can hit more attacks and be involved with combinations. In Diablo I tend to have one attack for a given area and just spam the left click and that's it.
Only being able to handle 1 or 2 creatures at a time (and I still insist that good players will handle more with ae or kiting or whatever) is also a feature of balance needed for MMO's. I guarantee you if Diablo 3 is an MMO monsters will be greatly scaled in difficulty to reduce the amount of kills. But I digress, again this is more to do with whetehr Diablo 3 is an MMO or similar format to D2 (battle.net).
About the expansions. Yes. Diablo 2 has an Expansion. But you can beat the expansion because there is a boss to it. And since there is no more expansions to Diablo 2, you can beat the game. In WoW, there is no boss figure. Also, there will be endless expansion that continue to not have boss figures. Therefore, you cannot beat the game. Sure, Kahn, there are raid bosses, but they are not the bosses of the entire expansion.
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That list was what I saw to be problems in WoW, and things that do not belong in a Diablo title.
Like I said in my original list. They will keep the skeletal game the same because they have to. I am worried though, that if a WoWer is in charge of the design team, they might do things that will ruin the diablo experience. Stuff like expand the inventory to 20 equippable slots, change the spell system so that you learn all the spells and invest in the ones you like, etc...
I have a challange for all you WoWers out there like Carl and Khan. I listed things that are in WoW that I think would hurt Diablo 3. Why don't you guys get together and lists things from WoW that you think would work well in D3.
Things I think will work well in Diablo 3 from WoW:
Items
A greater range of magic item categorisations. In Diablo 2 it was blue, yellow and gold for unique. I like having more categories like green blue purple orange and the rumoured red for artifacts in WoW. This is something borrowed by WoW from Diablo originally and expanded. I would like to see it expanded more in Diablo 3.
Gold
I would like to see Diablo 3 take a leaf from wow's book and make gold have some intrinsic value, it only mattered for the first run through normal in Diablo 2. After that it is worthless which led to items being traded. Against some of the previous posters, I prefer a currency economy, I hate trading items.
Quests
Diablo 2 was incredibly light on with quests. I want to see more story quests like WoW (not fed-ex quests). I also want to see more interesting diversion quests now they have built up more of Sanctuary lore that can tie back to some of the books for interest sake. I think they handled these over-arching and side interest story quests quite well in WoW.
Also I like the idea of rare droppable quests which made an appearance in WOW. the downside is it sucks if you try and farm for them but awesome when they drop. I suppose it is no worse than waiting for the unique or rare to drop that you are after.
Pets
Never liked pets (minions too, whatever you want to call them) much in Diablo 2. When they do them in Diablo 3 I hope they make either the ai's better or add better control like they did in WoW. This is something they could really take from wow to make them integral to certain characters.
Transfer items
This isn't a big thing but I liked how easy it was in Wow to store items on other characters (the mail system) because I'm a pack rat. I will be mildly irritated if I have to buy two copies of Diablo 3 to store all my crap.
Talents and Spells
This is one area which wow borrowed from Diablo 2, they had 3 talents trees like the skill trees; then in addition they had skills/spells that everyone of that class could learn. I would like to see Diablo 3 use a mixture too by using the skill trees in D2, but the ability to learn extra spells through finding books like in Diablo. I would love a slightly more complex characterisation and skill system.
This is where we disagree. Auto attack is very handy in an MMO to help mitigate lag issues, You might live on the west coast, but on the other side of the world the lag can be quite noticeable. Auto attack in these circumstances is a good thing™ as at least some attacks are handled serverside so you are not totally gimped by lag.
Also the whole thing about hitting a set sequence of number is certainly no worse than Diablo. In fact at least you can hit more attacks and be involved with combinations. In Diablo I tend to have one attack for a given area and just spam the left click and that's it.
Only being able to handle 1 or 2 creatures at a time (and I still insist that good players will handle more with ae or kiting or whatever) is also a feature of balance needed for MMO's. I guarantee you if Diablo 3 is an MMO monsters will be greatly scaled in difficulty to reduce the amount of kills. But I digress, again this is more to do with whetehr Diablo 3 is an MMO or similar format to D2 (battle.net).
I just think that if Diablo 3 isn't an MMO there should be no auto attack, who really held down the mouse button when attacking? (I clicked like a hyper-active monkey on crack)
Combo moves or my strategic play such as "GW!!!" should be added
I hope they keep the mass number of minions for the necro it just made you feel like a badass but it could be toned down a bit.
Quote from name="Shere Khaan" »
Things I think will work well in Diablo 3 from WoW:
Items
A greater range of magic item categorisations. In Diablo 2 it was blue, yellow and gold for unique. I like having more categories like green blue purple orange and the rumoured red for artifacts in WoW. This is something borrowed by WoW from Diablo originally and expanded. I would like to see it expanded more in Diablo 3.
Gold
I would like to see Diablo 3 take a leaf from wow's book and make gold have some intrinsic value, it only mattered for the first run through normal in Diablo 2. After that it is worthless which led to items being traded. Against some of the previous posters, I prefer a currency economy, I hate trading items.
Quests
Diablo 2 was incredibly light on with quests. I want to see more story quests like WoW (not fed-ex quests). I also want to see more interesting diversion quests now they have built up more of Sanctuary lore that can tie back to some of the books for interest sake. I think they handled these over-arching and side interest story quests quite well in WoW.
Also I like the idea of rare droppable quests which made an appearance in WOW. the downside is it sucks if you try and farm for them but awesome when they drop. I suppose it is no worse than waiting for the unique or rare to drop that you are after.
Pets
Never liked pets (minions too, whatever you want to call them) much in Diablo 2. When they do them in Diablo 3 I hope they make either the ai's better or add better control like they did in WoW. This is something they could really take from wow to make them integral to certain characters.
Transfer items
This isn't a big thing but I liked how easy it was in Wow to store items on other characters (the mail system) because I'm a pack rat. I will be mildly irritated if I have to buy two copies of Diablo 3 to store all my crap.
Talents and Spells
This is one area which wow borrowed from Diablo 2, they had 3 talents trees like the skill trees; then in addition they had skills/spells that everyone of that class could learn. I would like to see Diablo 3 use a mixture too by using the skill trees in D2, but the ability to learn extra spells through finding books like in Diablo. I would love a slightly more complex characterisation and skill system.
This will do me for now but I will think of more.
Well the items..... you forgot grey and white =) so not so much to improve on.... they have tons of items and I'm sure they will improve it.
Gold and Quests, i agree
Transfer items, once again I want it exactly like GW you have one storage for all characters, and tons of inventory space you can store all you want.
Skills, I just really like the basic skill tree but once again GW has a nice twist since you can be two classes and the main skills of your secondary class are unavailable this makes your character build very unique and hard to master with many many many many builds and slight variations.
Also I don't like the fact you have 50,000 skills all over your screen at lvl 70 on WoW and you have to click each one to cast them or use hotkeys but there are just too many.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
I just think that if Diablo 3 isn't an MMO there should be no auto attack, who really held down the mouse button when attacking? (I clicked like a hyper-active monkey on crack)
Combo moves or my strategic play such as "GW!!!" should be added
I hope they keep the mass number of minions for the necro it just made you feel like a badass but it could be toned down a bit.
Well the items..... you forgot grey and white =) so not so much to improve on.... they have tons of items and I'm sure they will improve it.
Gold and Quests, i agree
Transfer items, once again I want it exactly like GW you have one storage for all characters, and tons of inventory space you can store all you want.
Skills, I just really like the basic skill tree but once again GW has a nice twist since you can be two classes and the main skills of your secondary class are unavailable this makes your character build very unique and hard to master with many many many many builds and slight variations.
Also I don't like the fact you have 50,000 skills all over your screen at lvl 70 on WoW and you have to click each one to cast them or use hotkeys but there are just too many.
The grey and white items are put there for a reason. I think that its not exactly logical to go out and kill stuff only to get stuff that you can use. There has to be something you can't use.
Oh, and GW sucks bro. That is my opinion, I'll own it, and I will go to my grave with that. I really do hate GW, the worst $50 I ever spent. The PvP is stupid all except the guild raiding, where you can raid another guild's place.
The grey and white items are put there for a reason. I think that its not exactly logical to go out and kill stuff only to get stuff that you can use. There has to be something you can't use.
Oh, and GW sucks bro. That is my opinion, I'll own it, and I will go to my grave with that. I really do hate GW, the worst $50 I ever spent. The PvP is stupid all except the guild raiding, where you can raid another guild's place.
That is fine by me you are entitled to your opinion.
My opinion and prediction is that you didn't have the patience required to be good at the PvP thereby bashing it. You first of all need a good build, which is hard to come up with, secondly you need a good team, harder to get than the build although easily attainable if you are in a guild. I will admit the regular gameplay in GW was garbage but the PvP is the best in any game to date, if you have never been in a good team which has synchronized attacks and requires timing skills and strategy then I could see how you don't like the GW's PvP. You should really learn watch the guild battles or Hall of the Heroes battles via pressing b while in town. You can really see the skill required by the upper class teams and guilds, it's very skilled.
I forgot to say that WoW has horrible PvP (atleast what I have played of it) the teams are very disorganized and people fight solo mainly very chaotic and lame.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
The Chargers will play in SD. Good times for us in SD.
I am glad Khaan, that you have seen Kahn... But let us continue here. Bandwith Lag potential being the reason for auto attack is not a reason at all, it is an excuse. Also, there are Asian, European, Oceanic, and Continental WoW servers.
You must agree Kahn, that Lag is not the reason for auto attack in WoW. It was a design decision.
As for the hitting 1,2,3,4... in WoW, it IS worse than Diablo. You are right to state that in Diablo, we do have our skill/spell hotkeys, and players usually stick to 1 main attack type. However, since the game is not auto attack, it is better because the combat is quick and involving. Moving your character matters in terms of dodging thier melee attacks and ranged projectiles. Clicking when you want to strike/cast, and using shift to hold your ground. Using potions as needed (although that is in WoW as well) and always checking the drops with Alt. Combat in Diablo always requires 2 hands
As for WoW, it is all about aggro. Once you get that aggro, you start that 1,2,3,4... key combination, and you dont need to look at the screen, or use 2 hands. Therefore, Diablo is more invovling, even though we have only a handful of skills to use compared to WoW. You must agree with that Kahn, or atleast see the involvment difference.
Kahn, Auto attack is designed for 1vs1 or 2vs1 battles. It has nothing to do with balance. Being able to take only 1 to 2 enemies at a time is part of its design. The enemies take longer to kill and are scaled for more HP because auto attack combat calls for no movement of the player. It is all about slowly attacking eachother, and using the 1,2,3,4 abilities, trying for a sucessful attack. That is supposed to be the interesting part of combat. The thing that happens though, is what I talked about in the above paragraph, not even looking at the screen, 1 handed, only memorizing the combo timing. That is not an engrossing or involving experience. That isnt even playing anymore.
Respones for Items
As for your suggestions, I really liked the items system in Diablo 2. The only issue I have with adding more types of items is having some purpose in it. Diablo 2 had this purpose. Normal was regular. Magical had 1 or 2 special properties. Rare had 3 or 4 special properties. Unique was a set number of properties, Set items were like unique, but gained more power if more of the set was collected. And ofcourse, socketed was making your own magic items, controlling which properties they have. It seems like in WoW there are too many to understand and they were not simple differences like D2.
Respones for Gold
As I have said before, I'm the only one who likes Items for Items. Items for gold isn't exciting. Bartering crappy items that you collect, and trying to strike a deal with a dude whos got 1 good item, is very fun.
Response for Quests
I would say that any side quests would be good for D3. However, Fed Ex make me feel like a bitch quests would be no good.
Response for Pets
We will see what blizzard does about minion control.
Response for Transfer Items
I think GW way would be a better idea.
I know some folks (like Kahn) are telling us that this discussion is more Diablo vs MMO type gaming, but let me remind you that in the original list, I stated that these are things that I thought were a problem in WoW, and should not transfer over to any Diablo game.
For people like Boklaminos, sure it is your opinion, but why don't you contribute and say what you think can be taken from WoW into D3.
I just think that if Diablo 3 isn't an MMO there should be no auto attack, who really held down the mouse button when attacking? (I clicked like a hyper-active monkey on crack)
I started to hold it down when my mouse started to squeak.
In response to the original post (which seems like a veiled attack on WoW):
It won't have an affect on the new Diablo game at all, and if it does, it will be very positive. They're obviously going to utilize lessons learned from WoW. I'm a subscriber to the idea that the next Diablo game will be an MMO, and is the one Blizzard is currently working on. That's where the money is, and the market for stand alone solo action RPGs are fading. Just look at Hellgate: London's half-assed attempt to milk both markets. Blizzard has already officially confirmed that their next MMO won't be a WoW clone, and you can bet they're going to take into consideration the mistakes they've made with WoW (assuming there are similarities to begin with):
* No more "raid or die" philosophy. Blizzard now realizes that people have a myriad of play styles. Some like to solo quest, some like to PvP, others like to tackle broader strategies, etc.
* Itemization that avoids pigeon-holing classes into specific roles. For example, having gear options for all the aspects of a class, rather than just one (i.e. healing).
* More interaction and consequences with the world.
* More dynamic fighting that gets away from the feeling of grinding. Better AI for the monsters would also fall under this category.
Zogar, I hope you read more than just the first post.
Why would they make a Fantasy MMORPG when they already have recently created one. That is market corruption. However, if they made Diablo 3 like Diablo 2. WoWers would buy D3, and still keep their subscription to WoW.
As for your comments, Pigeon holing classes because of items doesn't appear in Diablo 2. So that idea is more of a WoW suggestion. I look forward to the "more to come..."
Why would they make a Fantasy MMORPG when they already have recently created one. That is market corruption. However, if they made Diablo 3 like Diablo 2. WoWers would buy D3, and still keep their subscription to WoW.
True that. I made that point a while ago, why would they subscribe to two (presumably) almost identical MMORPGs, both from the same company. They would get the same amount of MMO cash (presumably) but lose out on a TON of MRPG cash.
Zogar, I hope you read more than just the first post.
Why would they make a Fantasy MMORPG when they already have recently created one.
WoW isn't that recent. It came out 3 years ago, and by the time a new fantasy MMO is created, another 3 years may be gone.
Quote from "Sabacca50" »
That is market corruption.
Now? Yes. In another couple years? No.
Quote from "Sabacca50" »
However, if they made Diablo 3 like Diablo 2. WoWers would buy D3, and still keep their subscription to WoW.
Again, that's assuming the market is exactly as it is now. By the time a Diablo 3 comes out, WoW will likely be dead, and players will be itching for a new fantasy MMO. WoW might be dead right now for all we know; that 9 million players figure has been the same for a long time, and leveled off profits in big business = no profits. In the meantime, ruminate on these facts:
1.) They are making a new MMO.
2.) Most of the job postings for the new project mention Diablo and Diablo II. None mention Starcraft or any other universe.
3.) The MMO market (of which Blizzard is king) is growing. Single player PC games in certain genres, including action RPGs, are fading from the market.
4.) Starcraft II is on its way. Releasing a Starcraft or sci-fi MMO within the next few years would be more of a market over-saturation than releasing a new fantasy MMO. (yes, I know WC3 and WoW came out within short order, but do remember, WoW was an experimental game that Blizzard never dreamed would become such a huge success)
5.) The diablo franchise lends itself more easily to an MMO format than any other Blizzard game universe. Also, Diablo fans are now the only group left awaiting a new game.
Quote from "Sabacca50" »
As for your comments, Pigeon holing classes because of items doesn't appear in Diablo 2. So that idea is more of a WoW suggestion. I look forward to the "more to come..."
Reread what I wrote. I said that bad itemization was a problem WoW had (not Diablo II), and was one of the things they would want to fix for a future MMO. They've already fixed this to some extent in WoW as it is now.
You think Blizzard isn't making money off of WoW anymore? You think that 9 million people mean no profits? Zogar, its a subscription game. They want you to subscribe for as long as possible. Hell, If the game only had 400,000 people, it would still make millions a month Thats why they are making 1 expansion a year. Thats why in 3 years, Blizzard will still support WoW. Blizzard will not let it die.
Take a look at Sony with EQ. SOE thought that they could make EQ2 and not corrupt their market. They even waited 5 years in between releases. Yet, even with those 5 years, they still corrupted their market and didn't make any profit. Users that wanted to just switched over to EQ2, but the majority just kept playing EQ. EQ, to this day, still has 300k people.
So you're saying Zogar, that in 6 years inbetween releases, Blizzard will not corrupt their market with a Diablo MMO.
Zogar, 6 years is nothing. Plus, as I have stated, Blizzard is making 1 expansion a year, keeping players, and enticing older players to come back. They are supporting WoW, and they will support it even more, by not corrupting their market, and waiting atleast 8 to 10 years until they create another Fantasy MMORPG.
However Zogar, in 8 to 10 years from WoW's release, they arn't going back to a fantasy MMO. No, they are going to release a Starcraft MMO. Blizzard will pull the same thing as they did with Warcraft III, and WoW. Introduce players with a vast strategy game, getting them into (or back into) the universe, then when the time is right, they will release a MMO in that universe. Don't expect it to come out as fast as WoW did from War3. Blizzard will take their time, and ensure that they will not have 2 conflicting MMO's going on at the same time.
By the time of Starcraft's MMOs release, only the hardcore WoW players will remain, and all the others that have played WoW in the past and have quit, will subscribe to Starcraft MMO.
Diablo has always been Blizzards side game. Blizzard is Starcraft and Warcraft. Blizzard North is Diablo. But Blizzard North is no more. So the OG Blizzard guys are trying to continue what Blizzard North did, and continue to satisfy that niche/fan base.
Blizzard will make D3. And then, maybe 10 years from then, they might come back with a Diablo MMO. But for now, they need Diablo 3. They do not need a Diablo MMO.
And you say people would prefer another fantasy MMO over a sci-fi one. I for one would love a sci-fi MMO, I mean, Diablo would be easy as it already has RPG clases, but SC wouldn't be too tough. I would prefer an SC MMO personally.
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I'll compile a list, but don't worry. After reading a less rant-like post I see more of what your saying. Like I said, its not that I disagree, its the way you present the info and your ideas that makes me angry.
It'll take me a while to get a decent list as I weigh them, but ya.
So what we can look foward to, one would hope, would be the same Diablo formula but with some added extras, liked crafting *crosses fingers*, and having gold be of more use than... taking up space.
Just a quick note on stats before I do a bigger post, WoW beta did have stat point distribution. Blizzard felt that it's role in an MMO was fairly redundant and the benefits were far outweighed by people reaching 60 and realising they had gimped their charaters by choosing bad stats.
I don't for a moment think that this would be good in Diablo 3, but in an MMO it is necessary for the amount of playtime to build characters (new ones anyhow). Either that or respeccing stats which is just as bad imho.
All that needs to be said.
any list made by a "WoWer" as you like to call it is simply a matter of opinion and could be argued either way. I like WoW alot and i would like to see a few elements of WoW in d3. i certainly them to release world of diablo.
~Aeschylus :cool:
I have, and the thing in the ear scene gave me nightmares when I saw it as a kid
This is where we disagree. Auto attack is very handy in an MMO to help mitigate lag issues, You might live on the west coast, but on the other side of the world the lag can be quite noticeable. Auto attack in these circumstances is a good thing™ as at least some attacks are handled serverside so you are not totally gimped by lag.
Also the whole thing about hitting a set sequence of number is certainly no worse than Diablo. In fact at least you can hit more attacks and be involved with combinations. In Diablo I tend to have one attack for a given area and just spam the left click and that's it.
Only being able to handle 1 or 2 creatures at a time (and I still insist that good players will handle more with ae or kiting or whatever) is also a feature of balance needed for MMO's. I guarantee you if Diablo 3 is an MMO monsters will be greatly scaled in difficulty to reduce the amount of kills. But I digress, again this is more to do with whetehr Diablo 3 is an MMO or similar format to D2 (battle.net).
Things I think will work well in Diablo 3 from WoW:
Items
A greater range of magic item categorisations. In Diablo 2 it was blue, yellow and gold for unique. I like having more categories like green blue purple orange and the rumoured red for artifacts in WoW. This is something borrowed by WoW from Diablo originally and expanded. I would like to see it expanded more in Diablo 3.
Gold
I would like to see Diablo 3 take a leaf from wow's book and make gold have some intrinsic value, it only mattered for the first run through normal in Diablo 2. After that it is worthless which led to items being traded. Against some of the previous posters, I prefer a currency economy, I hate trading items.
Quests
Diablo 2 was incredibly light on with quests. I want to see more story quests like WoW (not fed-ex quests). I also want to see more interesting diversion quests now they have built up more of Sanctuary lore that can tie back to some of the books for interest sake. I think they handled these over-arching and side interest story quests quite well in WoW.
Also I like the idea of rare droppable quests which made an appearance in WOW. the downside is it sucks if you try and farm for them but awesome when they drop. I suppose it is no worse than waiting for the unique or rare to drop that you are after.
Pets
Never liked pets (minions too, whatever you want to call them) much in Diablo 2. When they do them in Diablo 3 I hope they make either the ai's better or add better control like they did in WoW. This is something they could really take from wow to make them integral to certain characters.
Transfer items
This isn't a big thing but I liked how easy it was in Wow to store items on other characters (the mail system) because I'm a pack rat. I will be mildly irritated if I have to buy two copies of Diablo 3 to store all my crap.
Talents and Spells
This is one area which wow borrowed from Diablo 2, they had 3 talents trees like the skill trees; then in addition they had skills/spells that everyone of that class could learn. I would like to see Diablo 3 use a mixture too by using the skill trees in D2, but the ability to learn extra spells through finding books like in Diablo. I would love a slightly more complex characterisation and skill system.
This will do me for now but I will think of more.
I just think that if Diablo 3 isn't an MMO there should be no auto attack, who really held down the mouse button when attacking? (I clicked like a hyper-active monkey on crack)
Combo moves or my strategic play such as "GW!!!" should be added
I hope they keep the mass number of minions for the necro it just made you feel like a badass but it could be toned down a bit.
Well the items..... you forgot grey and white =) so not so much to improve on.... they have tons of items and I'm sure they will improve it.
Gold and Quests, i agree
Transfer items, once again I want it exactly like GW you have one storage for all characters, and tons of inventory space you can store all you want.
Skills, I just really like the basic skill tree but once again GW has a nice twist since you can be two classes and the main skills of your secondary class are unavailable this makes your character build very unique and hard to master with many many many many builds and slight variations.
Also I don't like the fact you have 50,000 skills all over your screen at lvl 70 on WoW and you have to click each one to cast them or use hotkeys but there are just too many.
The grey and white items are put there for a reason. I think that its not exactly logical to go out and kill stuff only to get stuff that you can use. There has to be something you can't use.
Oh, and GW sucks bro. That is my opinion, I'll own it, and I will go to my grave with that. I really do hate GW, the worst $50 I ever spent. The PvP is stupid all except the guild raiding, where you can raid another guild's place.
That is fine by me you are entitled to your opinion.
My opinion and prediction is that you didn't have the patience required to be good at the PvP thereby bashing it. You first of all need a good build, which is hard to come up with, secondly you need a good team, harder to get than the build although easily attainable if you are in a guild. I will admit the regular gameplay in GW was garbage but the PvP is the best in any game to date, if you have never been in a good team which has synchronized attacks and requires timing skills and strategy then I could see how you don't like the GW's PvP. You should really learn watch the guild battles or Hall of the Heroes battles via pressing b while in town. You can really see the skill required by the upper class teams and guilds, it's very skilled.
I forgot to say that WoW has horrible PvP (atleast what I have played of it) the teams are very disorganized and people fight solo mainly very chaotic and lame.
I am glad Khaan, that you have seen Kahn... But let us continue here. Bandwith Lag potential being the reason for auto attack is not a reason at all, it is an excuse. Also, there are Asian, European, Oceanic, and Continental WoW servers.
You must agree Kahn, that Lag is not the reason for auto attack in WoW. It was a design decision.
As for the hitting 1,2,3,4... in WoW, it IS worse than Diablo. You are right to state that in Diablo, we do have our skill/spell hotkeys, and players usually stick to 1 main attack type. However, since the game is not auto attack, it is better because the combat is quick and involving. Moving your character matters in terms of dodging thier melee attacks and ranged projectiles. Clicking when you want to strike/cast, and using shift to hold your ground. Using potions as needed (although that is in WoW as well) and always checking the drops with Alt. Combat in Diablo always requires 2 hands
As for WoW, it is all about aggro. Once you get that aggro, you start that 1,2,3,4... key combination, and you dont need to look at the screen, or use 2 hands. Therefore, Diablo is more invovling, even though we have only a handful of skills to use compared to WoW. You must agree with that Kahn, or atleast see the involvment difference.
Kahn, Auto attack is designed for 1vs1 or 2vs1 battles. It has nothing to do with balance. Being able to take only 1 to 2 enemies at a time is part of its design. The enemies take longer to kill and are scaled for more HP because auto attack combat calls for no movement of the player. It is all about slowly attacking eachother, and using the 1,2,3,4 abilities, trying for a sucessful attack. That is supposed to be the interesting part of combat. The thing that happens though, is what I talked about in the above paragraph, not even looking at the screen, 1 handed, only memorizing the combo timing. That is not an engrossing or involving experience. That isnt even playing anymore.
Respones for Items
As for your suggestions, I really liked the items system in Diablo 2. The only issue I have with adding more types of items is having some purpose in it. Diablo 2 had this purpose. Normal was regular. Magical had 1 or 2 special properties. Rare had 3 or 4 special properties. Unique was a set number of properties, Set items were like unique, but gained more power if more of the set was collected. And ofcourse, socketed was making your own magic items, controlling which properties they have. It seems like in WoW there are too many to understand and they were not simple differences like D2.
Respones for Gold
As I have said before, I'm the only one who likes Items for Items. Items for gold isn't exciting. Bartering crappy items that you collect, and trying to strike a deal with a dude whos got 1 good item, is very fun.
Response for Quests
I would say that any side quests would be good for D3. However, Fed Ex make me feel like a bitch quests would be no good.
Response for Pets
We will see what blizzard does about minion control.
Response for Transfer Items
I think GW way would be a better idea.
I know some folks (like Kahn) are telling us that this discussion is more Diablo vs MMO type gaming, but let me remind you that in the original list, I stated that these are things that I thought were a problem in WoW, and should not transfer over to any Diablo game.
For people like Boklaminos, sure it is your opinion, but why don't you contribute and say what you think can be taken from WoW into D3.
Carl, where is your list?!
I started to hold it down when my mouse started to squeak.
It won't have an affect on the new Diablo game at all, and if it does, it will be very positive. They're obviously going to utilize lessons learned from WoW. I'm a subscriber to the idea that the next Diablo game will be an MMO, and is the one Blizzard is currently working on. That's where the money is, and the market for stand alone solo action RPGs are fading. Just look at Hellgate: London's half-assed attempt to milk both markets. Blizzard has already officially confirmed that their next MMO won't be a WoW clone, and you can bet they're going to take into consideration the mistakes they've made with WoW (assuming there are similarities to begin with):
* No more "raid or die" philosophy. Blizzard now realizes that people have a myriad of play styles. Some like to solo quest, some like to PvP, others like to tackle broader strategies, etc.
* Itemization that avoids pigeon-holing classes into specific roles. For example, having gear options for all the aspects of a class, rather than just one (i.e. healing).
* More interaction and consequences with the world.
* More dynamic fighting that gets away from the feeling of grinding. Better AI for the monsters would also fall under this category.
more to come....
Why would they make a Fantasy MMORPG when they already have recently created one. That is market corruption. However, if they made Diablo 3 like Diablo 2. WoWers would buy D3, and still keep their subscription to WoW.
As for your comments, Pigeon holing classes because of items doesn't appear in Diablo 2. So that idea is more of a WoW suggestion. I look forward to the "more to come..."
True that. I made that point a while ago, why would they subscribe to two (presumably) almost identical MMORPGs, both from the same company. They would get the same amount of MMO cash (presumably) but lose out on a TON of MRPG cash.
WoW isn't that recent. It came out 3 years ago, and by the time a new fantasy MMO is created, another 3 years may be gone.
Now? Yes. In another couple years? No.
Again, that's assuming the market is exactly as it is now. By the time a Diablo 3 comes out, WoW will likely be dead, and players will be itching for a new fantasy MMO. WoW might be dead right now for all we know; that 9 million players figure has been the same for a long time, and leveled off profits in big business = no profits. In the meantime, ruminate on these facts:
1.) They are making a new MMO.
2.) Most of the job postings for the new project mention Diablo and Diablo II. None mention Starcraft or any other universe.
3.) The MMO market (of which Blizzard is king) is growing. Single player PC games in certain genres, including action RPGs, are fading from the market.
4.) Starcraft II is on its way. Releasing a Starcraft or sci-fi MMO within the next few years would be more of a market over-saturation than releasing a new fantasy MMO. (yes, I know WC3 and WoW came out within short order, but do remember, WoW was an experimental game that Blizzard never dreamed would become such a huge success)
5.) The diablo franchise lends itself more easily to an MMO format than any other Blizzard game universe. Also, Diablo fans are now the only group left awaiting a new game.
Reread what I wrote. I said that bad itemization was a problem WoW had (not Diablo II), and was one of the things they would want to fix for a future MMO. They've already fixed this to some extent in WoW as it is now.
You think Blizzard isn't making money off of WoW anymore? You think that 9 million people mean no profits? Zogar, its a subscription game. They want you to subscribe for as long as possible. Hell, If the game only had 400,000 people, it would still make millions a month Thats why they are making 1 expansion a year. Thats why in 3 years, Blizzard will still support WoW. Blizzard will not let it die.
Take a look at Sony with EQ. SOE thought that they could make EQ2 and not corrupt their market. They even waited 5 years in between releases. Yet, even with those 5 years, they still corrupted their market and didn't make any profit. Users that wanted to just switched over to EQ2, but the majority just kept playing EQ. EQ, to this day, still has 300k people.
So you're saying Zogar, that in 6 years inbetween releases, Blizzard will not corrupt their market with a Diablo MMO.
Zogar, 6 years is nothing. Plus, as I have stated, Blizzard is making 1 expansion a year, keeping players, and enticing older players to come back. They are supporting WoW, and they will support it even more, by not corrupting their market, and waiting atleast 8 to 10 years until they create another Fantasy MMORPG.
However Zogar, in 8 to 10 years from WoW's release, they arn't going back to a fantasy MMO. No, they are going to release a Starcraft MMO. Blizzard will pull the same thing as they did with Warcraft III, and WoW. Introduce players with a vast strategy game, getting them into (or back into) the universe, then when the time is right, they will release a MMO in that universe. Don't expect it to come out as fast as WoW did from War3. Blizzard will take their time, and ensure that they will not have 2 conflicting MMO's going on at the same time.
By the time of Starcraft's MMOs release, only the hardcore WoW players will remain, and all the others that have played WoW in the past and have quit, will subscribe to Starcraft MMO.
Diablo has always been Blizzards side game. Blizzard is Starcraft and Warcraft. Blizzard North is Diablo. But Blizzard North is no more. So the OG Blizzard guys are trying to continue what Blizzard North did, and continue to satisfy that niche/fan base.
Blizzard will make D3. And then, maybe 10 years from then, they might come back with a Diablo MMO. But for now, they need Diablo 3. They do not need a Diablo MMO.