We had this discussion just yesterday, and a million times before. Can we just stop promoting this nonsense, which might lead some people to just "try stuff out" which then in turn gets them banned?
Of course scanning your memory is illegal, but not if you ask for explicit permission to do so. You give Blizzard this permission by signing the EULA at the first start of the game, otherwise you won't be able to play D3. Of course you can't just go and scan people's memory, but there are always loopholes - or what do you think how virus scanners and those things work.
A company can write what they want in their EULAs. It does not supercede a nation's laws. At least in Germany, any terms in a company's EULA, that conflict with national or case laws are nullified, even if you agreed to them. They can scan my memory based on their EULA, but they should try their best not to be caught in the act.
Please show me the German law that states that software cant scan a persons RAM after explicitly asking for permission to do so. I really do not believe such a law exists. I guess there are no virus scanners in Germany then?
The basic right to "Informationelle Selbstbestimmung". Your virus scanner comparison is lacking. Of course the virus scanner is reading my memory but it doesnt tell its company anything UNLESS I want it to send data to them regarding malware. The issue lies in sending data of myself to 3rd parties without my explicit case-by-case consent
Oh, but blizzard warden does the same thing as a virus scanner. It's not like they copy your whole RAM and send it to their headquarter to inspect it there. Ofcourse not. They simply put 'entries' into warden and warden searches for those entries. If it finds a match warden will not send back your RAM to blizzard, it will simply send back 'positive hit for x bot, by x person, at x time'. As is stated in:
THE GAME MAY COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE; AND/OR (B) BLIZZARD MAY EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO YOU.
They dont just randomly communicate information of your RAM back to blizzard, they simply send back this very specific information (account name, details about the program detected, time and date). They for sure dont need to ask your permission again on a case-by-case basis. You agreed once, thats enough. Similar to any other software that asks if they can send specific information back to their server for x reason, it's not like Facebook needs to ask your permission every time they use your data for commercial use.
Do you really believe a multimillion dolar company like blizzard-activision would develop software like Warden if it woudnt be legal? Do you really believe you know the law better then they do? Why if this discussion comes up nobody ever shows an example of a successful law-suit against Blizzard for scanning their memory?
We had this discussion just yesterday, and a million times before. Can we just stop promoting this nonsense, which might lead some people to just "try stuff out" which then in turn gets them banned?
Of course scanning your memory is illegal, but not if you ask for explicit permission to do so. You give Blizzard this permission by signing the EULA at the first start of the game, otherwise you won't be able to play D3. Of course you can't just go and scan people's memory, but there are always loopholes - or what do you think how virus scanners and those things work.
A company can write what they want in their EULAs. It does not supercede a nation's laws. At least in Germany, any terms in a company's EULA, that conflict with national or case laws are nullified, even if you agreed to them. They can scan my memory based on their EULA, but they should try their best not to be caught in the act.
Please show me the German law that states that software cant scan a persons RAM after explicitly asking for permission to do so. I really do not believe such a law exists. I guess there are no virus scanners in Germany then?
The basic right to "Informationelle Selbstbestimmung". Your virus scanner comparison is lacking. Of course the virus scanner is reading my memory but it doesnt tell its company anything UNLESS I want it to send data to them regarding malware. The issue lies in sending data of myself to 3rd parties without my explicit case-by-case consent
Oh, but blizzard warden does the same thing as a virus scanner. It's not like they copy your whole RAM and send it to their headquarter to inspect it there. Ofcourse not. They simply put 'entries' into warden and warden searches for those entries. If it finds a match warden will not send back your RAM to blizzard, it will simply send back 'positive hit for x bot, by x person, at x time'. As is stated in:
THE GAME MAY COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE; AND/OR (B) BLIZZARD MAY EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO YOU.
They dont just randomly communicate information of your RAM back to blizzard, they simply send back this very specific information (account name, details about the program detected, time and date). They for sure dont need to ask your permission again on a case-by-case basis. You agreed once, thats enough. Similar to any other software that asks if they can send specific information back to their server for x reason, it's not like Facebook needs to ask your permission every time they use your data for commercial use.
Do you really believe a multimillion dolar company like blizzard-activision would develop software like Warden if it woudnt be legal? Do you really believe you know the law better then they do? Why if this discussion comes up nobody ever shows an example of a successful law-suit against Blizzard for scanning their memory?
[\quote]
I would expect of every single multimillion company to try to bend the law as far as it will go and then some. Sony did it with the rootkit in their CD protection, and that is a multimillion company if there ever was one. And that is one case that we know of, because the shit hit the fan.
I would also trust my government and any other government in the planet to do exactly the same.
What I would find shocking is any entity to which I am just a number (well, for Blizzard not even that because I am a solo player, which doesn't even deserve a number) doing anything with my best interest in mind.
Maybe the next time you morons hear about an exploit, you'll not attempt it yourself. I knew about it and I'm not banned, because I'm not stupid enough to try it. No sympathy.
Actually Advantage which you are discounting here is not only the most important bit but what separates people from using it from people trying it.
here is from wikipedia
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]
I did not gain or intended to gain any advantage, if would want to do so i would not stop after first try.
Pointless discussion. I am not cheater i am not EXPLOITING any bugs, i tried bug that everyone talked about. ONCE.
I am not in that category which the guy earlier described as "maybe lets not try this at all instead of trying once it will make us better people") so i am lesser man (a cheater) in your and Blizzard eyes, which is fine.
Lets leave at it. The cats belong to microwave btw anyways:)
You knew it was unintended, you knew it could get you in trouble, you did it anyways. Enjoy your ban, cheater.
afaik Nothing in the TOS or EULA can go beyond the law. They cant scan your whole RAM, they can only scan the area of of RAM that the game owns. So they cant ban botters because they cant detect the specific program running because it is outside of the owned RAM by D3. If Blizzard can detect or track anything, they will ban for it. So they go after exploits very harshly because they can track everything that happens within the game. You guys need to cool it about Blizzard not banning botters. If they legally detect 3rd party programs, they will ban for it. They do it regularly with certain programs that inject into the D3 client.
There was one person in this topic justifying the bans. I wholeheartedly disagree, with that. I may be bias because i was one that got 14 day ban.
I tried this "exploit" twice - first time for 1 hour when lads on clan said that patch is buggy, and explained current bug i did not even know it exists prior to that. So i went on got myself tons of amulets and tried what this stuff is about. Did not get any advantage or anything dropped it immediately after.
Second time tried for 10 minutes after hotfix was released to test if they fixed the bug finally.
I could perhaps live with the ban even though it is completely undeserved. I have no idea how my testing affected any one of you who praise this ban wave whatsoever. But the fact that according to them they removed my leaderboards results its just icing of the cake. (I have no way of checcking if they actyally removed me).
Just day before ban i finally after ton of efforts got into solo wizard leaderboards, feeling good and all next day i come from work looking forward to progress further and not only i find out that i got ban for some nonsense that i did month ago , but also they claim removing my leaderboard result that i achieved long after that and without any direct correlation.
This is absurd. And those who are defending this decision is absurd too.
I completely agree that those that continously used this exploit should be banned, but those who just tried it for sake of trying at most should have been warned.
My 50 cents anyway. Not that any of you or Blizzard itself cares but i think its a good time to say goodbye to company which makes good games but have no sense of judgement.
If you played the same character you tried it on, later - then you were still using it.
It was a "permanent" exploit. It didn't just go away. There was "no trying it for a minute or two". If you kept playing that character; you were still using the exploit - not matter if you thought so or not.
You'd have to change characters and not use that character again, until fixed - before you were actually not using it anymore.
There was one person in this topic justifying the bans. I wholeheartedly disagree, with that. I may be bias because i was one that got 14 day ban.
I tried this "exploit" twice - first time for 1 hour when lads on clan said that patch is buggy, and explained current bug i did not even know it exists prior to that. So i went on got myself tons of amulets and tried what this stuff is about. Did not get any advantage or anything dropped it immediately after.
Second time tried for 10 minutes after hotfix was released to test if they fixed the bug finally.
I could perhaps live with the ban even though it is completely undeserved. I have no idea how my testing affected any one of you who praise this ban wave whatsoever. But the fact that according to them they removed my leaderboards results its just icing of the cake. (I have no way of checcking if they actyally removed me).
Just day before ban i finally after ton of efforts got into solo wizard leaderboards, feeling good and all next day i come from work looking forward to progress further and not only i find out that i got ban for some nonsense that i did month ago , but also they claim removing my leaderboard result that i achieved long after that and without any direct correlation.
This is absurd. And those who are defending this decision is absurd too.
I completely agree that those that continously used this exploit should be banned, but those who just tried it for sake of trying at most should have been warned.
My 50 cents anyway. Not that any of you or Blizzard itself cares but i think its a good time to say goodbye to company which makes good games but have no sense of judgement.
If you played the same character you tried it on, later - then you were still using it.
It was a "permanent" exploit. It didn't just go away. There was "no trying it for a minute or two". If you kept playing that character; you were still using the exploit - not matter if you thought so or not.
You'd have to change characters and not use that character again, until fixed - before you were actually not using it anymore.
Bullshit, you could just revert the exploit by repairing the necklace and equipping it.
I can easily list 15 ways of detecting if someone is botting for Blizzard, with a few days work and a patch they could detect all with 100% catch rate I'm sure.
What 15 things sould Blizzard look out for and how do they detect this?
There is really only one needed and it's so obvious:
1. Time played in a single game, specifically time spent without taking an action (not moving, not casting). Nobody would sit at their computer for 1, let alone 5, forget about 12 hours straight and do the exact same runs without taking a moment to pause their play besides waiting a game to load, boss death animation or for a rift to close. A bot doesn't ever take a break- people have to.
Ain't got time to try out exploits. I mean mats are precious to me since I don't play 12+ hours a day. So to those who were banned for trying it out, my question is how many hell fire amulets did you craft? How many mats did you waste to "try" the exploit? "Trying" out the exploit for 2-3 hours on 4 accounts, well yeah come on bros!!! 2-3 hours to "try" the exploit means you were trying to craft amulets with possibly all passives all because you wanted to tell your buddies hey I had all the passives at once just to be cool? You went out of your way to "try" it out. And those who said they will not play a Blizzard game ever again are lying to themselves. Hypocrite much?
I tried the hellfire exploit. Crafted some amulets and got a few extra passives.
I had the passives for a couple of days, and it didn't really affect my gameplay in anyway, except maybe for some extra survivability.
And then after downtime on a wednesday, I logged on and found out they had been removed or reset or something. Never did the exploit again.
Got a mail yesterday saying I was permabanned, tried ticketing it and got denied. I don't mind getting a slap on the wrist, like those who got the 2 week ban, but permaban is too much in my opinion. It's basicly Blizzard taking a game you bought away from you, and in my oppinion stealing YOUR product so that you can't play it anymore. Two weeks of thinking how stupid you were when you tried it should be enough.
- Perm bans on players who tried a simple bug in the game is very extreme.
I don't agree. In my personal polluted view of this game. Every "exploit" is seemingly met with a lukewarm response. Temporary banning, rollbacks. By taking a hardline they're hopefully establishing a precedent. You yourself mentioned that point in your video. A deterrence. We can only hope it actually holds water.
- This banwave had absolutely nothing to do with botters, botters remain untouched (bots are extremely sophisticated).
Sad thing that is too. Botting as pervasive and undermining as ever.
- 17 passives was nowhere near the level of game breaking as blood shard goblins exploit, yet the passive bug was treated with much more extreme measures.
I don't know which is more game breaking. But the latter part of your statement harkens back to the first point.
In your video I found it alarming that you were so dismissive of this particular exploit and the reaction BYpersistently comparing it to other egregious offenses. Someone earlier made an apt analogy about being pulled over for speeding and asking the police officer why they aren't chasing murderers. I can't think of a better way to put it. A powerful lesson this has been for some.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
I tried the hellfire exploit. Crafted some amulets and got a few extra passives.
I had the passives for a couple of days, and it didn't really affect my gameplay in anyway, except maybe for some extra survivability.
And then after downtime on a wednesday, I logged on and found out they had been removed or reset or something. Never did the exploit again.
Got a mail yesterday saying I was permabanned, tried ticketing it and got denied. I don't mind getting a slap on the wrist, like those who got the 2 week ban, but permaban is too much in my opinion. It's basicly Blizzard taking a game you bought away from you, and in my oppinion stealing YOUR product so that you can't play it anymore. Two weeks of thinking how stupid you were when you tried it should be enough.
But it's not YOUR product, it's Blizzards and you simply bought the rights to play it. By then violating the TOS that you agree upon, you are putting yourself at risk to be punished in whatever way Blizzard deem necessary. In this case, you would've gotten away with a 2 week suspension if you had tested the exploit/bug then turned it off on your own within the day. But seeing as you didn't they assumed you had intentionally used it for several days to gain an advantage.
I am still wondering how people haven't learned that exploits are not worth testing on your own.
they invade your privacy? I'm sure you also have a facebook account, use google services (maybe google chrome as browser?) of some sorts, have either an android phone or an iphone, and so on. but blizzard is invading your privacy when warden finds a third party program that is against their fucking house rules?
and while the tos/eula are not exactly laws and thus cannot really be enforced as such.... this shall be a message for all those cheaters and exploiters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx40udwQvZI
- Perm bans on players who tried a simple bug in the game is very extreme.
I don't agree. In my personal polluted view of this game. Every "exploit" is seemingly met with a lukewarm response. Temporary banning, rollbacks. By taking a hardline they're hopefully establishing a precedent. You yourself mentioned that point in your video. A deterrence. We can only hope it actually holds water.
- This banwave had absolutely nothing to do with botters, botters remain untouched (bots are extremely sophisticated).
Sad thing that is too. Botting as pervasive and undermining as ever.
- 17 passives was nowhere near the level of game breaking as blood shard goblins exploit, yet the passive bug was treated with much more extreme measures.
I don't know which is more game breaking. But the latter part of your statement harkens back to the first point.
In your video I found it alarming that you were so dismissive of this particular exploit and the reaction BYpersistently comparing it to other egregious offenses. Someone earlier made an apt analogy about being pulled over for speeding and asking the police officer why they aren't chasing murderers. I can't think of a better way to put it. A powerful lesson this has been for some.
I Agree with this; MCookie opinion is pretty dumb by comparing HFA offense with other stuff and being dismissive with it. The speeding ticket analogy is a good example. But yea; I can share the same opinion that Blizzard should do something about botters; but can they do? But that's another issue; not the same one; and both issues (HFA and botting) should have the same punishment; be banned for using both.
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Oh, but blizzard warden does the same thing as a virus scanner. It's not like they copy your whole RAM and send it to their headquarter to inspect it there. Ofcourse not. They simply put 'entries' into warden and warden searches for those entries. If it finds a match warden will not send back your RAM to blizzard, it will simply send back 'positive hit for x bot, by x person, at x time'. As is stated in:
They dont just randomly communicate information of your RAM back to blizzard, they simply send back this very specific information (account name, details about the program detected, time and date). They for sure dont need to ask your permission again on a case-by-case basis. You agreed once, thats enough. Similar to any other software that asks if they can send specific information back to their server for x reason, it's not like Facebook needs to ask your permission every time they use your data for commercial use.
Do you really believe a multimillion dolar company like blizzard-activision would develop software like Warden if it woudnt be legal? Do you really believe you know the law better then they do? Why if this discussion comes up nobody ever shows an example of a successful law-suit against Blizzard for scanning their memory?
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Oh, but blizzard warden does the same thing as a virus scanner. It's not like they copy your whole RAM and send it to their headquarter to inspect it there. Ofcourse not. They simply put 'entries' into warden and warden searches for those entries. If it finds a match warden will not send back your RAM to blizzard, it will simply send back 'positive hit for x bot, by x person, at x time'. As is stated in:
They dont just randomly communicate information of your RAM back to blizzard, they simply send back this very specific information (account name, details about the program detected, time and date). They for sure dont need to ask your permission again on a case-by-case basis. You agreed once, thats enough. Similar to any other software that asks if they can send specific information back to their server for x reason, it's not like Facebook needs to ask your permission every time they use your data for commercial use.
Do you really believe a multimillion dolar company like blizzard-activision would develop software like Warden if it woudnt be legal? Do you really believe you know the law better then they do? Why if this discussion comes up nobody ever shows an example of a successful law-suit against Blizzard for scanning their memory?
[\quote]
I would expect of every single multimillion company to try to bend the law as far as it will go and then some. Sony did it with the rootkit in their CD protection, and that is a multimillion company if there ever was one. And that is one case that we know of, because the shit hit the fan.
I would also trust my government and any other government in the planet to do exactly the same.
What I would find shocking is any entity to which I am just a number (well, for Blizzard not even that because I am a solo player, which doesn't even deserve a number) doing anything with my best interest in mind.
Ban them all
Oh what a day! What a lovely day!
Oh what a lovely day indeed!
Good, you wanna cut corners like a douchebag?
Get banned like one too.
Lets see you all take on bots and stop them all, come back and let me know.
Until then, if you were caught using this exploit.
Tough Titty.
Maybe the next time you morons hear about an exploit, you'll not attempt it yourself. I knew about it and I'm not banned, because I'm not stupid enough to try it. No sympathy.
afaik Nothing in the TOS or EULA can go beyond the law. They cant scan your whole RAM, they can only scan the area of of RAM that the game owns. So they cant ban botters because they cant detect the specific program running because it is outside of the owned RAM by D3. If Blizzard can detect or track anything, they will ban for it. So they go after exploits very harshly because they can track everything that happens within the game. You guys need to cool it about Blizzard not banning botters. If they legally detect 3rd party programs, they will ban for it. They do it regularly with certain programs that inject into the D3 client.
It was a "permanent" exploit. It didn't just go away. There was "no trying it for a minute or two". If you kept playing that character; you were still using the exploit - not matter if you thought so or not.
You'd have to change characters and not use that character again, until fixed - before you were actually not using it anymore.
It's simple. If you break the rules and get banned, you've got no right to complain.
There is really only one needed and it's so obvious:
1. Time played in a single game, specifically time spent without taking an action (not moving, not casting). Nobody would sit at their computer for 1, let alone 5, forget about 12 hours straight and do the exact same runs without taking a moment to pause their play besides waiting a game to load, boss death animation or for a rift to close. A bot doesn't ever take a break- people have to.
Ain't got time to try out exploits. I mean mats are precious to me since I don't play 12+ hours a day. So to those who were banned for trying it out, my question is how many hell fire amulets did you craft? How many mats did you waste to "try" the exploit? "Trying" out the exploit for 2-3 hours on 4 accounts, well yeah come on bros!!! 2-3 hours to "try" the exploit means you were trying to craft amulets with possibly all passives all because you wanted to tell your buddies hey I had all the passives at once just to be cool? You went out of your way to "try" it out. And those who said they will not play a Blizzard game ever again are lying to themselves. Hypocrite much?
I tried the hellfire exploit. Crafted some amulets and got a few extra passives.
I had the passives for a couple of days, and it didn't really affect my gameplay in anyway, except maybe for some extra survivability.
And then after downtime on a wednesday, I logged on and found out they had been removed or reset or something. Never did the exploit again.
Got a mail yesterday saying I was permabanned, tried ticketing it and got denied. I don't mind getting a slap on the wrist, like those who got the 2 week ban, but permaban is too much in my opinion. It's basicly Blizzard taking a game you bought away from you, and in my oppinion stealing YOUR product so that you can't play it anymore. Two weeks of thinking how stupid you were when you tried it should be enough.
- Perm bans on players who tried a simple bug in the game is very extreme.
I don't agree. In my personal polluted view of this game. Every "exploit" is seemingly met with a lukewarm response. Temporary banning, rollbacks. By taking a hardline they're hopefully establishing a precedent. You yourself mentioned that point in your video. A deterrence. We can only hope it actually holds water.
- This banwave had absolutely nothing to do with botters, botters remain untouched (bots are extremely sophisticated).
Sad thing that is too. Botting as pervasive and undermining as ever.
- 17 passives was nowhere near the level of game breaking as blood shard goblins exploit, yet the passive bug was treated with much more extreme measures.
I don't know which is more game breaking. But the latter part of your statement harkens back to the first point.
In your video I found it alarming that you were so dismissive of this particular exploit and the reaction BY persistently comparing it to other egregious offenses. Someone earlier made an apt analogy about being pulled over for speeding and asking the police officer why they aren't chasing murderers. I can't think of a better way to put it. A powerful lesson this has been for some.
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
I am still wondering how people haven't learned that exploits are not worth testing on your own.
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Curse Premiumthey invade your privacy? I'm sure you also have a facebook account, use google services (maybe google chrome as browser?) of some sorts, have either an android phone or an iphone, and so on. but blizzard is invading your privacy when warden finds a third party program that is against their fucking house rules?
and while the tos/eula are not exactly laws and thus cannot really be enforced as such.... this shall be a message for all those cheaters and exploiters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx40udwQvZI